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President Obama Re-Elected - Page 264

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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
August 10 2012 03:51 GMT
#5261
On August 10 2012 12:48 Nymphaceae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:41 Leporello wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:34 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:24 sam!zdat wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:23 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:18 JinDesu wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:15 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:00 Jumbled wrote:
On August 10 2012 11:53 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 11:33 aksfjh wrote:
Do you really think somebody could run for the Presidency without a full background check, including inspecting the birth certificate?

People get away with tax fraud all the time...This is kind of why I'm saying Romney is several steps ahead of everyone. People want to try to feel like they're close to his level, but to be honest, I strongly believe he's way over all of our heads. :\

You're perfectly entitled to feel Romney is cleverer than you, but I doubt it applies to everyone else. Did you have anything to offer the thread other than defunct conspiracy theories?

Would you come close to his salary if you didn't pay taxes? Would Obama come close? Is it wrong if he pays a lower percentage, because he makes donations to charities?



I don't think you have any idea how he gets his low tax rate.

I mean, things like deducting horse expenses.

And a car elevator garage.

And a multimillion dollar house.


Are you an accountant? What are horse expenses? Is it wrong if some one buys an expensive house?


It's wrong if the way you do it is by being a capitalist pig, yeah


I don't know if you're calling him a try hard or what. I just think that even if you tried to be a "capitalist pig," then it would be really hard to come close to his salary still. He's really impressive imo.

I know a woman who is 84 years old now. She was making about 2 million a year just from dividends. She paid next to nothing in taxes, but she also started over 300 libraries in her life time. Should you criticize her for paying hardly any taxes?


Here it is. Let's shift the burden of schools, street maintenance, police, fire protection, hospitalization and public works to the middle class, as Romney's tax plan will plainly do, and then give the richest of the rich as many ways to not pay for that burden, so that way they can build us all libraries!!! Why build public libraries with taxes when we have so many altruistic rich people? 300 privately-funded libraries!!!? That's amazing. I would love to read a source that even verifies 300 privately-funded, open-public libraries exist in America, let alone all 300 of them being started by one lady and her dividend checks out of the goodness of her elderly heart.

Source, now.

You don't think kids from poorer communities should have an equal opportunity as you? You don't think crime goes down as there become more intellectuals? What about less fires? What about the homeless? Is it wrong for them to cool down in the library during a hot summer day? Is it wrong for him to use a computer to write a resume?


What the hell are you asking me these questions for?

I asked you for a source.

No one is debating the usefulness of libraries. At all. Or you REALLY don't understand sarcasm.
Big water
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 03:55:37
August 10 2012 03:52 GMT
#5262
On August 10 2012 12:24 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:23 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:18 JinDesu wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:15 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:00 Jumbled wrote:
On August 10 2012 11:53 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 11:33 aksfjh wrote:
Do you really think somebody could run for the Presidency without a full background check, including inspecting the birth certificate?

People get away with tax fraud all the time...This is kind of why I'm saying Romney is several steps ahead of everyone. People want to try to feel like they're close to his level, but to be honest, I strongly believe he's way over all of our heads. :\

You're perfectly entitled to feel Romney is cleverer than you, but I doubt it applies to everyone else. Did you have anything to offer the thread other than defunct conspiracy theories?

Would you come close to his salary if you didn't pay taxes? Would Obama come close? Is it wrong if he pays a lower percentage, because he makes donations to charities?



I don't think you have any idea how he gets his low tax rate.

I mean, things like deducting horse expenses.

And a car elevator garage.

And a multimillion dollar house.


Are you an accountant? What are horse expenses? Is it wrong if some one buys an expensive house?


It's wrong if the way you do it is by being a capitalist pig, yeah


Wrong is subjective. Romney's just trying to make the most of his meager existence on this planet.
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
August 10 2012 03:53 GMT
#5263
This guy is either a troll or a child
shikata ga nai
Nymphaceae
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States350 Posts
August 10 2012 03:53 GMT
#5264
On August 10 2012 12:42 Velocirapture wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:35 aksfjh wrote:
I really think Romney has, for the most part, obeyed tax law. It's just that he's able to do so much within the confines of the law that it highlights a bigger problem with policies and bills he would suggest and/or support as President.


This is almost certainly the case. I would not be surprised if there have been years where Romney paid less than 10% by abusing offshore loopholes and various deductions intended to stabilize and give incentives to the middle class but commonly abused by the rich.

This is the fundamental flaw of the current regulatory system. We, for some reason, have no problem segregating the poor structurally within the regulatory system but any benefit a guy at 70k a year gets has to be given to a guy making 100 million. Tax breaks for home/property ownership for example are designed to essentially be subsidies for the middle class. The rich have no place getting these benefits.


How is it abuse?
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 04:16:11
August 10 2012 03:55 GMT
#5265
On August 10 2012 11:11 Nymphaceae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 10:46 Defacer wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:38 Nymphaceae wrote:
Does anyone get the feeling that Romney is just far smarter than Obama, and that Obama is hiding a lot of secrets?


Does anyone get the feeling that the only reason Romney actually has no agenda other than doing or saying whatever it takes to become president, in order to one-up his father?

Or that Romney is actually a spineless flip-flopping wuss that has no control of or respect from the GOP, and if he were elected it would a disaster?



Don't you ever wonder that by Romney not telling his agenda would be better than him telling it. Like his agenda is good, but if it were known, then it would hurt the country as a whole, but if it were unknown, then it would benefit the country greatly?

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I just feel like Obama is really secretive about things like his GPA, his birth certificate, and other basic things that would be required for a resume, but when you look at Romney, they ask him for very personal things, like his taxes. Does that not seem wrong to you?



I've already addressed this in detail.

Yes, I do agree that tax returns are quite personal. Ironically, it's releasing tax returns during a campaign is a precedent that George Romney started.

While releasing tax returns is not mandatory, it's become customary for candidates to be transparent as possible about their finances, which is what makes Romney's refusal seem so odd. It would essentially make him the LEAST TRANSPARENT, MOST SECRETIVE presidential candidate in 30 years.

For Mitt Romney not to release more than two years -- and the truth is, he's only released 1 return and an incomplete return, well after he decided to run for presidency -- is absolutely deserving of criticism in 20/21st century politics. In fact, there have been calls from right-wing publications and pundits such as National Review and Bill Kristol for Romney to just-release-his-fucking-returns-already.

On July 19 2012 07:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:

Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?

He's released his 2010 return, given estimates on his 2011 return and said he'll release it when it's filed.

How does that compare with other candidates in the past 30 years? From what I can tell that's the norm. If you have evidence that says otherwise, please share and I'll be happy to change my opinion on the matter.


Here you go.


No law requires presidential candidates to release their tax returns, but history does. President Obama’s re-election campaign is pressuring their Republican challenger Mitt Romney to release more of his tax returns. He has released one year, and one estimate's worth thus far. That should suffice, says the Romney camp.

When then Sen. Barack Obama ran against Hillary Clinton in the 2008 Democratic primary, his campaign similarly pressured her to release tax returns. A month after Obama released six years of returns, Clinton followed suit. The 2008 Republican nominee Sen. John McCain released two years of tax returns that year as well.

Going back to 1996, Republican Sen. Bob Dole released 30 years of tax returns ahead of the election, and in 1992 Bill Clinton released 12 years of tax returns (although critics said it wasn't enough). On and on it goes: Michael Dukakis released five years of returns when he ran in 1988, and George H.W. Bush forced Ronald Reagan's hand as both released their returns in the lead-up to the Republican nomination in 1980.

PolitiFact found only seven presidential or vice president candidates since 1976 have refused to release any tax returns. Romney is not among them, though he was in 2008. Those seven include five Republicans, one Democrat, and one Green Party: Jerry Brown, Pat Buchanan, Mike Huckabee, Steve Forbes, Rudy Giuliani, Richard Lugar, Ralph Nader.

Many have pointed out that it was George Romney (Mitt's dad) who started this trend when he released 12 years of tax returns in November 1963, a full year prior to the 1964 election, saying one year just wouldn't be enough.

And that's where the debate is centered now. While history demands that presidential candidates release their tax returns to the public in a sign of transparency, the record is less clear when it comes to how many years are necessary to establish some semblance of good faith.

The problem for Romney is that the media, his main challenger (Obama), and the public have remaining questions over his wealth and earnings that were not answered through the release of one tax return. It's likely he'll be forced to reveal more before November.


It's important to note that although McCain released two years of tax returns and Kerry released 5 during their presidential bids. However both had been Senators for at least ten years each, and where running on their records in government. John Kerry has 20 years of tax returns in the public record, as a result of running for senate. Even his wife (heiress to the Heinz empire) reluctantly released two years of tax returns.

The 'candidates' that didn't release any returns -- Jerry Brown, Pat Buchanan, Mike Huckabee, Steve Forbes, Rudy Giuliani, Richard Lugar, Ralph Nader -- were all pretty much non-starters anyways.






Nymphaceae
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States350 Posts
August 10 2012 03:55 GMT
#5266
On August 10 2012 12:48 JinDesu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:47 sam!zdat wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:42 Velocirapture wrote:
The rich have no place getting these benefits.


But then who will give us all the jobs?


I'll make them. It's possible for me, as it appears that jobs are created by one person without any help.

Dunno why people complain about not being able to find jobs.

McDonalds is hiring.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
August 10 2012 03:56 GMT
#5267
On August 10 2012 12:52 1Eris1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:24 sam!zdat wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:23 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:18 JinDesu wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:15 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:00 Jumbled wrote:
On August 10 2012 11:53 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 11:33 aksfjh wrote:
Do you really think somebody could run for the Presidency without a full background check, including inspecting the birth certificate?

People get away with tax fraud all the time...This is kind of why I'm saying Romney is several steps ahead of everyone. People want to try to feel like they're close to his level, but to be honest, I strongly believe he's way over all of our heads. :\

You're perfectly entitled to feel Romney is cleverer than you, but I doubt it applies to everyone else. Did you have anything to offer the thread other than defunct conspiracy theories?

Would you come close to his salary if you didn't pay taxes? Would Obama come close? Is it wrong if he pays a lower percentage, because he makes donations to charities?



I don't think you have any idea how he gets his low tax rate.

I mean, things like deducting horse expenses.

And a car elevator garage.

And a multimillion dollar house.


Are you an accountant? What are horse expenses? Is it wrong if some one buys an expensive house?


It's wrong if the way you do it is by being a capitalist pig, yeah


Wrong is subjective.


I disagree. But I've talked about this extensively elsewhere, so I'll spare the good citizens of the elections thread.


Romney's just making the most of his meager existence on this planet.


I wouldn't call it "meager"
shikata ga nai
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
August 10 2012 03:56 GMT
#5268
So no source then?

Great.

But at least you made your point: The less we tax the rich, the more libraries they'll build for us (with air conditioning, of course).

Jesus Christ.
Big water
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
August 10 2012 03:56 GMT
#5269
On August 10 2012 12:55 Nymphaceae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:48 JinDesu wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:47 sam!zdat wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:42 Velocirapture wrote:
The rich have no place getting these benefits.


But then who will give us all the jobs?


I'll make them. It's possible for me, as it appears that jobs are created by one person without any help.

Dunno why people complain about not being able to find jobs.

McDonalds is hiring.


Then you go fucking work there. Jesus
shikata ga nai
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
August 10 2012 03:59 GMT
#5270
On August 10 2012 12:56 Leporello wrote:
So no source then?

Great.

But at least you made your point: The less we tax the rich, the more libraries they'll build for us (with air conditioning, of course).

Jesus Christ.


On the plus side, we give more money to the government, who will also build us libraries. We will have so many libraries.

We'll become the smartest nation on earth.
Yargh
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
August 10 2012 04:00 GMT
#5271
On August 10 2012 12:59 JinDesu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:56 Leporello wrote:
So no source then?

Great.

But at least you made your point: The less we tax the rich, the more libraries they'll build for us (with air conditioning, of course).

Jesus Christ.


On the plus side, we give more money to the government, who will also build us libraries. We will have so many libraries.

We'll become the smartest nation on earth.


Hey, it's a step up from "fattest"
shikata ga nai
Nymphaceae
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States350 Posts
August 10 2012 04:01 GMT
#5272
On August 10 2012 12:56 Leporello wrote:
So no source then?

Great.

But at least you made your point: The less we tax the rich, the more libraries they'll build for us (with air conditioning, of course).

Jesus Christ.


yeah,
What else do you think an anthropologist should do?
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
August 10 2012 04:01 GMT
#5273
On August 10 2012 13:00 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:59 JinDesu wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:56 Leporello wrote:
So no source then?

Great.

But at least you made your point: The less we tax the rich, the more libraries they'll build for us (with air conditioning, of course).

Jesus Christ.


On the plus side, we give more money to the government, who will also build us libraries. We will have so many libraries.

We'll become the smartest nation on earth.


Hey, it's a step up from "fattest"


Dunno bout that - nerds don't tend to get out much. We'd be in the library all day, with air conditioning.

Ok - let's get back on topic after this one, sorry for the distraction everyone.
Yargh
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 04:04:59
August 10 2012 04:02 GMT
#5274
On August 10 2012 13:01 Nymphaceae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:56 Leporello wrote:
So no source then?

Great.

But at least you made your point: The less we tax the rich, the more libraries they'll build for us (with air conditioning, of course).

Jesus Christ.


yeah,
What else do you think an anthropologist should do?


Study African tribes?

No. You're trolling. You have to be.

The word is philanthropy, or philanthropist.
edit: Either way, thanks for the laughs. But god, I hope you're trolling.
Big water
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
August 10 2012 04:05 GMT
#5275
I'm voting for Nymphaceae this election.
shikata ga nai
Nymphaceae
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States350 Posts
August 10 2012 04:06 GMT
#5276
On August 10 2012 13:02 Leporello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 13:01 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:56 Leporello wrote:
So no source then?

Great.

But at least you made your point: The less we tax the rich, the more libraries they'll build for us (with air conditioning, of course).

Jesus Christ.


yeah,
What else do you think an anthropologist should do?


Study African tribes?

No. You're trolling. You have to be.

The word is philanthropy.
edit: Either way, thanks for the laughs. But god, I hope you're trolling.

No, anthropology. I know what philanthropy is, and she got her start by studying Indian tribes. She made her fortune by teaching classes and writing books, and then letting an investor invest it.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
August 10 2012 04:07 GMT
#5277
Why do you guys keep letting trolls derail this topic? -_-
TotalBalanceSC2
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada475 Posts
August 10 2012 04:08 GMT
#5278
Are you now going to tell us you were that investment advisor Nymph?
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 04:11:37
August 10 2012 04:10 GMT
#5279
To take you seriously for just a moment, the reason we don't like philanthropy is that we would like to imagine a world in which we could have libraries et al. without waiting around for some nice old anthropologist lady to come give them to us.

You know, like, maybe "we the people" could do it ourselves...?

edit: in other words, it is the capitalist order which makes it necessary to have philanthropists. Philanthropy is therefore not a justification for capitalism - it is a way for capitalists to buy off their guilt.
shikata ga nai
Tarot
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada440 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 04:11:26
August 10 2012 04:10 GMT
#5280
On August 10 2012 12:55 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 11:11 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:46 Defacer wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:38 Nymphaceae wrote:
Does anyone get the feeling that Romney is just far smarter than Obama, and that Obama is hiding a lot of secrets?


Does anyone get the feeling that the only reason Romney actually has no agenda other than doing or saying whatever it takes to become president, in order to one-up his father?

Or that Romney is actually a spineless flip-flopping wuss that has no control of or respect from the GOP, and if he were elected it would a disaster?



Don't you ever wonder that by Romney not telling his agenda would be better than him telling it. Like his agenda is good, but if it were known, then it would hurt the country as a whole, but if it were unknown, then it would benefit the country greatly?

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I just feel like Obama is really secretive about things like his GPA, his birth certificate, and other basic things that would be required for a resume, but when you look at Romney, they ask him for very personal things, like his taxes. Does that not seem wrong to you?



I've already addressed this in detail.

Yes, I do agree that tax returns are quite personal. Ironically, it's a precedent that George Romney started.

While releasing tax returns is not mandatory, it's become customary for candidates to be transparent as possible about their finances, which is what makes Romney's refusal seems so odd. It would essentially make him the LEAST TRANSPARENT, MOST SECRETIVE presidential candidate in 30 years.

For Mitt Romney not to release more than two years -- and the truth is, he's only released 1 return and an incomplete return, well after he decided to run for presidency -- is absolutely deserving of criticism in 20/21st century politics. In fact, there have been calls from right-wing publications and pundits such as National Review and Bill Kristol for Romney to just-release-his-fucking-returns-already.

Show nested quote +
On July 19 2012 07:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:

Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?

He's released his 2010 return, given estimates on his 2011 return and said he'll release it when it's filed.

How does that compare with other candidates in the past 30 years? From what I can tell that's the norm. If you have evidence that says otherwise, please share and I'll be happy to change my opinion on the matter.


Here you go.


Show nested quote +
No law requires presidential candidates to release their tax returns, but history does. President Obama’s re-election campaign is pressuring their Republican challenger Mitt Romney to release more of his tax returns. He has released one year, and one estimate's worth thus far. That should suffice, says the Romney camp.

When then Sen. Barack Obama ran against Hillary Clinton in the 2008 Democratic primary, his campaign similarly pressured her to release tax returns. A month after Obama released six years of returns, Clinton followed suit. The 2008 Republican nominee Sen. John McCain released two years of tax returns that year as well.

Going back to 1996, Republican Sen. Bob Dole released 30 years of tax returns ahead of the election, and in 1992 Bill Clinton released 12 years of tax returns (although critics said it wasn't enough). On and on it goes: Michael Dukakis released five years of returns when he ran in 1988, and George H.W. Bush forced Ronald Reagan's hand as both released their returns in the lead-up to the Republican nomination in 1980.

PolitiFact found only seven presidential or vice president candidates since 1976 have refused to release any tax returns. Romney is not among them, though he was in 2008. Those seven include five Republicans, one Democrat, and one Green Party: Jerry Brown, Pat Buchanan, Mike Huckabee, Steve Forbes, Rudy Giuliani, Richard Lugar, Ralph Nader.

Many have pointed out that it was George Romney (Mitt's dad) who started this trend when he released 12 years of tax returns in November 1963, a full year prior to the 1964 election, saying one year just wouldn't be enough.

And that's where the debate is centered now. While history demands that presidential candidates release their tax returns to the public in a sign of transparency, the record is less clear when it comes to how many years are necessary to establish some semblance of good faith.

The problem for Romney is that the media, his main challenger (Obama), and the public have remaining questions over his wealth and earnings that were not answered through the release of one tax return. It's likely he'll be forced to reveal more before November.


It's important to note that although McCain released two years of tax returns and Kerry released 5 during their presidential bids. However both had been Senators for at least ten years each, and where running on their records in government. John Kerry has 20 years of tax returns in the public record, as a result of running for senate. Even his wife (heiress to the Heinz empire) reluctantly released two years of tax returns.

The 'candidates' that didn't release any returns -- Jerry Brown, Pat Buchanan, Mike Huckabee, Steve Forbes, Rudy Giuliani, Richard Lugar, Ralph Nader -- were all pretty much non-starters anyways.

Huh. Kind of funny that the trend that his own dad started is coming back to bite him.
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