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President Obama Re-Elected - Page 265

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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
August 10 2012 04:13 GMT
#5281
Almost as funny as his own healthcare coming back to bite him.
shikata ga nai
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
August 10 2012 04:17 GMT
#5282
On August 10 2012 13:10 Tarot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 12:55 Defacer wrote:
On August 10 2012 11:11 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:46 Defacer wrote:
On August 10 2012 10:38 Nymphaceae wrote:
Does anyone get the feeling that Romney is just far smarter than Obama, and that Obama is hiding a lot of secrets?


Does anyone get the feeling that the only reason Romney actually has no agenda other than doing or saying whatever it takes to become president, in order to one-up his father?

Or that Romney is actually a spineless flip-flopping wuss that has no control of or respect from the GOP, and if he were elected it would a disaster?



Don't you ever wonder that by Romney not telling his agenda would be better than him telling it. Like his agenda is good, but if it were known, then it would hurt the country as a whole, but if it were unknown, then it would benefit the country greatly?

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I just feel like Obama is really secretive about things like his GPA, his birth certificate, and other basic things that would be required for a resume, but when you look at Romney, they ask him for very personal things, like his taxes. Does that not seem wrong to you?



I've already addressed this in detail.

Yes, I do agree that tax returns are quite personal. Ironically, it's a precedent that George Romney started.

While releasing tax returns is not mandatory, it's become customary for candidates to be transparent as possible about their finances, which is what makes Romney's refusal seems so odd. It would essentially make him the LEAST TRANSPARENT, MOST SECRETIVE presidential candidate in 30 years.

For Mitt Romney not to release more than two years -- and the truth is, he's only released 1 return and an incomplete return, well after he decided to run for presidency -- is absolutely deserving of criticism in 20/21st century politics. In fact, there have been calls from right-wing publications and pundits such as National Review and Bill Kristol for Romney to just-release-his-fucking-returns-already.

On July 19 2012 07:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:

Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?

He's released his 2010 return, given estimates on his 2011 return and said he'll release it when it's filed.

How does that compare with other candidates in the past 30 years? From what I can tell that's the norm. If you have evidence that says otherwise, please share and I'll be happy to change my opinion on the matter.


Here you go.


No law requires presidential candidates to release their tax returns, but history does. President Obama’s re-election campaign is pressuring their Republican challenger Mitt Romney to release more of his tax returns. He has released one year, and one estimate's worth thus far. That should suffice, says the Romney camp.

When then Sen. Barack Obama ran against Hillary Clinton in the 2008 Democratic primary, his campaign similarly pressured her to release tax returns. A month after Obama released six years of returns, Clinton followed suit. The 2008 Republican nominee Sen. John McCain released two years of tax returns that year as well.

Going back to 1996, Republican Sen. Bob Dole released 30 years of tax returns ahead of the election, and in 1992 Bill Clinton released 12 years of tax returns (although critics said it wasn't enough). On and on it goes: Michael Dukakis released five years of returns when he ran in 1988, and George H.W. Bush forced Ronald Reagan's hand as both released their returns in the lead-up to the Republican nomination in 1980.

PolitiFact found only seven presidential or vice president candidates since 1976 have refused to release any tax returns. Romney is not among them, though he was in 2008. Those seven include five Republicans, one Democrat, and one Green Party: Jerry Brown, Pat Buchanan, Mike Huckabee, Steve Forbes, Rudy Giuliani, Richard Lugar, Ralph Nader.

Many have pointed out that it was George Romney (Mitt's dad) who started this trend when he released 12 years of tax returns in November 1963, a full year prior to the 1964 election, saying one year just wouldn't be enough.

And that's where the debate is centered now. While history demands that presidential candidates release their tax returns to the public in a sign of transparency, the record is less clear when it comes to how many years are necessary to establish some semblance of good faith.

The problem for Romney is that the media, his main challenger (Obama), and the public have remaining questions over his wealth and earnings that were not answered through the release of one tax return. It's likely he'll be forced to reveal more before November.


It's important to note that although McCain released two years of tax returns and Kerry released 5 during their presidential bids. However both had been Senators for at least ten years each, and where running on their records in government. John Kerry has 20 years of tax returns in the public record, as a result of running for senate. Even his wife (heiress to the Heinz empire) reluctantly released two years of tax returns.

The 'candidates' that didn't release any returns -- Jerry Brown, Pat Buchanan, Mike Huckabee, Steve Forbes, Rudy Giuliani, Richard Lugar, Ralph Nader -- were all pretty much non-starters anyways.

Huh. Kind of funny that the trend that his own dad started is coming back to bite him.


Yeah. If you wrote it as a premise for a movie no one would believe it.

darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8003 Posts
August 10 2012 04:18 GMT
#5283
On August 10 2012 13:06 Nymphaceae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 13:02 Leporello wrote:
On August 10 2012 13:01 Nymphaceae wrote:
On August 10 2012 12:56 Leporello wrote:
So no source then?

Great.

But at least you made your point: The less we tax the rich, the more libraries they'll build for us (with air conditioning, of course).

Jesus Christ.


yeah,
What else do you think an anthropologist should do?


Study African tribes?

No. You're trolling. You have to be.

The word is philanthropy.
edit: Either way, thanks for the laughs. But god, I hope you're trolling.

No, anthropology. I know what philanthropy is, and she got her start by studying Indian tribes. She made her fortune by teaching classes and writing books, and then letting an investor invest it.


You've provided nothing of substance in the past 4 pages. Just stop.
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
Nymphaceae
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States350 Posts
August 10 2012 04:23 GMT
#5284
On August 10 2012 13:10 sam!zdat wrote:
To take you seriously for just a moment, the reason we don't like philanthropy is that we would like to imagine a world in which we could have libraries et al. without waiting around for some nice old anthropologist lady to come give them to us.

You know, like, maybe "we the people" could do it ourselves...?

edit: in other words, it is the capitalist order which makes it necessary to have philanthropists. Philanthropy is therefore not a justification for capitalism - it is a way for capitalists to buy off their guilt.

I know you're probably from a big city, or live close to a big city, but not everywhere there is a cool place to chill. Not everywhere there is electricity. Not everywhere the houses are cooler than it is outside on a hot summer day. People dream of having the knowledge to do something great, but to get that knowledge is not easy. You would be surprised by the number of people who can't make it at fast food restaurants, because they can't add and subtract by numbers greater than one. There are too many people who were forced to drop out of school for work for various reasons, and now want an education. It doesn't matter how much money they make, all they want to feel is that they are smarter than the person next to them if not even.

Perhaps you should worry about something that really matters if not libraries. For example the number of people abusing prescription drugs vs the number of people abusing illegal drugs. I know a guy who was all about cutting himself at karate practice, so that he could get high off of pain killers. I really hope I can pay for his drugs.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 04:28:40
August 10 2012 04:24 GMT
#5285
The whole point of him releasing his returns is to address the core issues this election. Romney thinks he and people like him pay WAY too much in taxes as a result he hires a firm of people to manipulate the system so he can pay as little as legally possible.

The counter argument is that because of the legal tax manipulation the wealthiest people whom Romney is trying to lower their tax rate in fact often pay a lower effective rate than those whom do not have the resources to hire firms to do their multi-hundred page tax returns.

The fact that Romney wont release his returns is strong evidence that his tax returns prove just that.

Not to mention more information like deductions for competition horses that are greater than firefighters annual salaries will go further to paint the narrative that people like Romney have no idea what it is like to need to things and only be able to afford one, yet is quick to complain that the $100,000+ salary he made from Bain while "having nothing to do with their operations" by his own admission was taxed far too much but he doesn't want to show us how much it was actually taxed because it would "give the other side ammo."

It amazes me that there is any question about him releasing more returns
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 10 2012 04:32 GMT
#5286
Sen. Harry Reid made his effort to pass the DREAM Act a centerpiece of his re-election campaign in 2010, and won with crucial help from the Latino community. With Latinos poised to play a major role in the 2012 elections, Democratic Senate candidates in the Southwest are following suit — urging the national party to add the DREAM Act to its national platform.

Senate hopefuls Rep. Martin Heinrich in New Mexico, Rep. Shelley Berkley in Nevada and Richard Carmona in Arizona are leading the charge.

The DREAM Act passed the Democratic-led House in 2010, but died in the Senate. Despite widespread support for the measure among Democrats, the DREAM Act has never been on the party’s platform. In 2008, the party called simply for “comprehensive, not piecemeal” immigration reform.

This time, the platform drafters are strongly considering adding the DREAM Act. The drafting committee met in Minneapolis in July to hear testimony and outline a draft. This weekend, the full platform committee will meet in Detroit to approve the platform that will be presented to delegates at the convention in Charlotte.

Frank Sharry, an immigration reform advocate who testified on the immigration plank, told TPM he “strongly recommended that they include language that supports passage of the DREAM Act as well as passage of the broader reform.” Sharry thinks there’s a good chance it will make it onto into the final platform. “Since these are President Obama’s oft-stated priorities, I doubt it will be a heavy lift to get them into the final platform.”

Heinrich also thought President Obama’s support for the DREAM Act — which he touts on the trial — will help their effort. “I think this is the right time … especially given the leadership the president has shown on the issue,” Heinreich said in a conference call with reporters Thursday. So far, he said Democrats’ response has been “very positive” and he’s “hopeful this is happening.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Kavallerie
Profile Joined August 2012
Germany89 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 11:10:56
August 10 2012 11:10 GMT
#5287
The lack of intelligent responses is really shocking. Romney or Obama will win. For me, I'm sick of Obama.
DannyJ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States5110 Posts
August 10 2012 11:12 GMT
#5288
On August 10 2012 20:10 Kavallerie wrote:
The lack of intelligent responses is really shocking. Romney or Obama will win. For me, I'm sick of Obama.


Really?
Nymphaceae
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States350 Posts
August 10 2012 15:03 GMT
#5289
On August 10 2012 20:12 DannyJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2012 20:10 Kavallerie wrote:
The lack of intelligent responses is really shocking. Romney or Obama will win. For me, I'm sick of Obama.


Really?

Obama is kind of pimped out by Greece.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 10 2012 16:23 GMT
#5290
Mitt Romney wants to boast about his signature policy achievement — universal health care in Massachusetts — but the right won’t let him.

It’s no secret that Romney has an uneasy alliance with the conservative base. But the movement’s reaction when he nodded at Romneycare wasn’t an isolated freakout about the one issue they disagree on. It was a warning to Romney that he veers from orthodoxy at his peril.

When it became clear that Romney would be the GOP nominee, the right, suspicious of his moderate past, undertook an effort to rob him of his governing agency. That’s included constraining his options on everything from tax policy to his vice presidential pick. The clamor when he claimed credit for Romneycare exemplifies what happens when he bucks those constraints.

“We are not auditioning for fearless leader,” Grover Norquist told conservatives at the CPAC convention in February. “We don’t need a president to tell us in what direction to go. We know what direction to go. We want the Ryan budget. … We just need a president to sign this stuff. We don’t need someone to think it up or design it. The leadership now for the modern conservative movement for the next 20 years will be coming out of the House and the Senate.”

Norquist went on: “Pick a Republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president of the United States. This is a change for Republicans: the House and Senate doing the work with the president signing bills. His job is to be captain of the team, to sign the legislation that has already been prepared.”

Those are the marching orders, and thus far they’ve controlled Romney’s campaign. Romney’s health care heresy was the biggest breach, and the right’s reaction was swift and demeaning — one compared it, in a widely approved tweet, to housebreaking a dog.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
August 10 2012 17:07 GMT
#5291
On August 10 2012 20:10 Kavallerie wrote:
The lack of intelligent responses is really shocking. Romney or Obama will win. For me, I'm sick of Obama.


Thank you for contributing your valuable German perspective.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
August 10 2012 17:42 GMT
#5292
There's been some recent discussion on stimulus by a bunch of Republican economists who wrote a paper talking about Romney's "plan" for economic growth and how stimulus is bad: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/125714335/Romney-Tax-Reform-White-Paper

Here some other discussion relating to the paper.

Mostly a point by point counterargument: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/08/things-wrong-with-hassett-hubbard-mankiw-and-taylor-the-romney-program-for-economic-recovery-growth-and-jobs.html
A list of papers saying that stimulus works: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/08/the-romney-campaign-says-stimulus-doesnt-work-here-are-the-studies-they-left-out/
And an article on these Republican economists: http://mainlymacro.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/giving-economics-bad-name.html
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-10 18:09:44
August 10 2012 18:08 GMT
#5293
On August 11 2012 02:42 paralleluniverse wrote:
There's been some recent discussion on stimulus by a bunch of Republican economists who wrote a paper talking about Romney's "plan" for economic growth and how stimulus is bad: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/125714335/Romney-Tax-Reform-White-Paper

Here some other discussion relating to the paper.

Mostly a point by point counterargument: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/08/things-wrong-with-hassett-hubbard-mankiw-and-taylor-the-romney-program-for-economic-recovery-growth-and-jobs.html
A list of papers saying that stimulus works: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/08/the-romney-campaign-says-stimulus-doesnt-work-here-are-the-studies-they-left-out/
And an article on these Republican economists: http://mainlymacro.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/giving-economics-bad-name.html


I've been loosely following this, but yes, I'd recommend those articles. Delong's deconstruction of Romney's advisors' white paper (Hasset, Hubbard, Mankiw, and Taylor) is remarkably thorough. It goes through pretty much every citation and verifies there is no studies that link Obama's policies to the economic downturn.

To understand the integrity of [the HHMT] argument, consider his claim that ‘uncertainty over policy--particularly over tax and regulatory policy--slowed the recovery and limited job creation. One recent study by Scott Baker and Nicholas Bloom of Stanford University and Steven Davis of the University of Chicago found that this uncertainty reduced GDP by 1.4% in 2011 alone.’ Note the phrase ‘this uncertainty’: he's talking about uncertainty ‘particularly over tax and regulatory policy’. Now read the analysis by Baker, Bloom and Davis http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2000734.

From their abstract: ‘The index spikes around presidential elections and major events such as the Gulf wars and the 9/11 attack. Index values are high in recent years and show clear jumps associated with the Lehman bankruptcy, the 2010 midterm elections, the Euro crisis and the U.S. debt-ceiling dispute.’

Uncertainty over regulatory policy? No mention. Uncertainty over tax policy? No mention. What Hubbard seems to be doing is interpreting the uncertainty created by elections (and the debt-ceiling showdown) as uncertainty about regulatory and tax policy (as opposed to, say, government spending.)


Nymphaceae
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States350 Posts
August 10 2012 18:26 GMT
#5294
On August 11 2012 02:42 paralleluniverse wrote:
There's been some recent discussion on stimulus by a bunch of Republican economists who wrote a paper talking about Romney's "plan" for economic growth and how stimulus is bad: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/125714335/Romney-Tax-Reform-White-Paper

Here some other discussion relating to the paper.

Mostly a point by point counterargument: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/08/things-wrong-with-hassett-hubbard-mankiw-and-taylor-the-romney-program-for-economic-recovery-growth-and-jobs.html
A list of papers saying that stimulus works: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/08/the-romney-campaign-says-stimulus-doesnt-work-here-are-the-studies-they-left-out/
And an article on these Republican economists: http://mainlymacro.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/giving-economics-bad-name.html


Very interesting. I started reading the first one, and I thought it had good points. After that, I couldn't get by the bad grammar in your 2nd link. The 3rd link was kind of interesting, but as I clicked on the tests that failed, to see why they failed, I ran into bad grammar again. Thanks for the links though.
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
August 10 2012 18:45 GMT
#5295
OkkkkKkkK I'll post one more time. Can someone explain why Obama's birth certificate was never examined closer when he released it? If you zoom up really close or in pdf format you can clearly see its been edited, (computer black text over gray blue real ink.) Dozens of layers used etc etc. I know there was a post on to a long ways back that pointed to a YouTube video explaining all the faults, but no one can tell me that was just scanned in like that, those special scanners only make a background layer and a text layer, not 50 layers... you can go to white house.gov or search google, and look at the thing itself. Li,e I said before idc if he was born elsewhere, but I'm surprised this never got solved. If it was real then wouldn't you think they would just scan it normally without editing I mean it just screams fake.
DamnCats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1472 Posts
August 10 2012 18:53 GMT
#5296
On August 11 2012 03:45 WniO wrote:
OkkkkKkkK I'll post one more time. Can someone explain why Obama's birth certificate was never examined closer when he released it? If you zoom up really close or in pdf format you can clearly see its been edited, (computer black text over gray blue real ink.) Dozens of layers used etc etc. I know there was a post on to a long ways back that pointed to a YouTube video explaining all the faults, but no one can tell me that was just scanned in like that, those special scanners only make a background layer and a text layer, not 50 layers... you can go to white house.gov or search google, and look at the thing itself. Li,e I said before idc if he was born elsewhere, but I'm surprised this never got solved. If it was real then wouldn't you think they would just scan it normally without editing I mean it just screams fake.


It gets solved when fox news tells us it gets solved. NOT A MINUTE FUCKING BEFORE.
Disciples of a god, that neither lives nor breathes.
Nymphaceae
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States350 Posts
August 10 2012 18:57 GMT
#5297
On August 11 2012 03:53 DamnCats wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2012 03:45 WniO wrote:
OkkkkKkkK I'll post one more time. Can someone explain why Obama's birth certificate was never examined closer when he released it? If you zoom up really close or in pdf format you can clearly see its been edited, (computer black text over gray blue real ink.) Dozens of layers used etc etc. I know there was a post on to a long ways back that pointed to a YouTube video explaining all the faults, but no one can tell me that was just scanned in like that, those special scanners only make a background layer and a text layer, not 50 layers... you can go to white house.gov or search google, and look at the thing itself. Li,e I said before idc if he was born elsewhere, but I'm surprised this never got solved. If it was real then wouldn't you think they would just scan it normally without editing I mean it just screams fake.


It gets solved when fox news tells us it gets solved. NOT A MINUTE FUCKING BEFORE.

Chop to it then oompa loompa. We need you on air stat!
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 10 2012 18:58 GMT
#5298
The internet is alive with speculation that the secret source Harry Reid claims to have on Mitt Romney’s tax returns is Utah industrialist Jon Huntsman Sr. He is the founder of Hunstman Corporation and the father of the former GOP presidential candidate — and the speculation is based on the fact that his profile fits with much of what we publicly know about Reid’s presumed confidante.

But I just got off the phone with Huntsman, and he confirmed to me that he is not Reid’s source.

However, in a move that could be significant, Huntsman forcefully called on Romney to release his tax returns. This matters, because Huntsman is a longtime backer of Romney — he has long been close to Romney; he supported his early campaigns; he was the national finance chairman of Romney’s 2008 presidential campaign; and he has raised a lot of money for him over the years. (He backed his own son in the latest GOP primary.)

“I feel very badly that Mitt won’t release his taxes and won’t be fair with the American people,” Huntsman told me. In a reference to Romney’s father, who pioneered the release of returns as a presidential candidate, Huntsman said: “I loved George. He always said, pay your taxes for at least 10 or 12 years.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
August 10 2012 19:00 GMT
#5299
On August 11 2012 03:57 Nymphaceae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2012 03:53 DamnCats wrote:
On August 11 2012 03:45 WniO wrote:
OkkkkKkkK I'll post one more time. Can someone explain why Obama's birth certificate was never examined closer when he released it? If you zoom up really close or in pdf format you can clearly see its been edited, (computer black text over gray blue real ink.) Dozens of layers used etc etc. I know there was a post on to a long ways back that pointed to a YouTube video explaining all the faults, but no one can tell me that was just scanned in like that, those special scanners only make a background layer and a text layer, not 50 layers... you can go to white house.gov or search google, and look at the thing itself. Li,e I said before idc if he was born elsewhere, but I'm surprised this never got solved. If it was real then wouldn't you think they would just scan it normally without editing I mean it just screams fake.


It gets solved when fox news tells us it gets solved. NOT A MINUTE FUCKING BEFORE.

Chop to it then oompa loompa. We need you on air stat!

... have any of you actually looked at it in illustrator or just PDF? Godamnit tell me how that's not fake, ink up close it not fucking perfect black.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
August 10 2012 19:03 GMT
#5300
On August 11 2012 03:58 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
The internet is alive with speculation that the secret source Harry Reid claims to have on Mitt Romney’s tax returns is Utah industrialist Jon Huntsman Sr. He is the founder of Hunstman Corporation and the father of the former GOP presidential candidate — and the speculation is based on the fact that his profile fits with much of what we publicly know about Reid’s presumed confidante.

But I just got off the phone with Huntsman, and he confirmed to me that he is not Reid’s source.

However, in a move that could be significant, Huntsman forcefully called on Romney to release his tax returns. This matters, because Huntsman is a longtime backer of Romney — he has long been close to Romney; he supported his early campaigns; he was the national finance chairman of Romney’s 2008 presidential campaign; and he has raised a lot of money for him over the years. (He backed his own son in the latest GOP primary.)

“I feel very badly that Mitt won’t release his taxes and won’t be fair with the American people,” Huntsman told me. In a reference to Romney’s father, who pioneered the release of returns as a presidential candidate, Huntsman said: “I loved George. He always said, pay your taxes for at least 10 or 12 years.”


Source


“I feel very badly that Mitt won’t release his taxes and won’t be fair with the American people,” Huntsman told me. In a reference to Romney’s father, who pioneered the release of returns as a presidential candidate, Huntsman said: “I loved George. He always said, pay your taxes for at least 10 or 12 years.”


Huntsman said: “I loved George. He always said, pay your taxes for at least 10 or 12 years.”


Wait.. what? I cracked up pretty hard reading this part.
Yargh
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