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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me.
Honestly, because of this key notion there is no way any courtroom can find Zimmerman guilty beyond reasonable doubt, which is why this case has been over for a long time now. The only reason this particular case is still ongoing is because the media portrayed the whole situation as a white on black crime that involved a shooting.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 29 2013 10:28 heroyi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 10:18 Sermokala wrote:On May 29 2013 10:12 heroyi wrote:
I am having a hard time finding the source but someone here on page 94 said that Zimmerman did NOT confront Martin. Instead Martin confronted Zimmerman i.e initiated first. Anyone has source to this?
Because it doesn't matter what is there because if they can prove that Martin was the aggressor then this whole case is done straight up. Considering that martin didn't have any physical damage (other then the gunshot) and Zimmerman had numerous places where he was beaten its pretty easy to see who was the "aggressor". Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch guy trying to prevent people from robbing homes in his neighborhood. Along comes a young black youth on pot looking like hes going to try and rob some house's and he goes and asks him what hes doing in the area. Pretty open and shut case as far as I see it. In no way am I being disrespectful so please do not take it that way: I am still not sold yet by this post as it really simplifies the situation. I mean iirc Martin was in the area on the phone with his GF hold a bag of skittles? and a tea. Doesn't seem like a conquest to go robbing. Even if Zimmerman had a whole bunch of visible injuries that still won't stand very strong to the jury (don't have to delve that much into this). I mean does Martin have a notoriety to his name (infamous around that area?) or did Zimmerman in fact target him cause of his skin color (really hate to say this). That's why I am asking about this. Because of the lawyer can prove that Martin in fact attacked Zimmerman FIRST then all of these speculations (of which I pointed out the majority above) don't matter shit.
I don't think it's as shut as Sermokala says it is however I have to agree with some of his points. From everything I've read, it 'seems' that Martin is the aggressor in this case. I believe what he meant was that Martin was 'inspecting' houses on his way back to his own so even though he wasn't on a conquest to go robbing at that moment, it was for future purposes. Having said that, please notice the '' around those two important words lol since I could've used looking instead of inspecting etc... I dunno why you say Zimmerman's injuries won't hold up in court because unless Martin had some aside from the gunshot, it shows that Zimmerman got injured in the fight and why would someone who has a gun decide to get into a scuffle if he can just end things without getting hurt in the first place? Martin wasn't known in the community but the community has been experiencing a lot of robberies lately and Zimmerman said that he confronted Martin to ask him what he was doing since he knows his neighbours and hasn't seen him there before. It sounds legit but no one knows what happened after.
On May 29 2013 10:50 heroyi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 10:38 Redox wrote:
Hm to me it seems like this Zimmerman was judged prematurely by the media. It doesnt look like anyone will be able to prove that Martin didnt attack Zimmerman. Even if the contrary can not be proven either, it would still be innocent until proven guilty.
So I think the outcome of any trial is pretty much predetermined.
This case got way too much attention and way too many people judged it without actually knowing what happened. Just because of political leanings. I really do hate how media portrayed Zimmerman so damn quickly. Just because Martin was a minority was the only reason why the Media was on this topic so heavily and I really do hate that. Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To both posters: Again I keep hearing that both the GF (surprising :o) and Zimmerman (obviously) both agree that Martin was to engage first. If the GF, unwittingly or w.e reason, stands by this statement then I think they have all the evidence they need to let Zimmerman go. Hell I don't think Zimmerman even has any records does he (I could be wrong and if so please enlighten me)?
I believe Zimmerman got into a fight with his ex-wife when she spit gum in his face or something like that. I think there is a link in the OP about it but that's all I remember about his past(there might be one more thing though).
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TLADT24920 Posts
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On May 29 2013 10:53 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. The background plays a role in judging if Martin could have attacked Zimmerman or not which forced Zimmerman to defend himself. A criminal background makes this possibility more likely.
true, but is that evidence, which seems circumstantial in nature to me (neither of the crimes he *should* have been arrested for are necessarily violent), enough to make a judgement? Do the two witness testimonies, one of which is provided by Zimmerman himself do enough to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt?
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On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_Martin
Martin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle.
Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty.
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On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty.
I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive.
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On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive.
No it's not, lol.
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On May 30 2013 02:26 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. No it's not, lol.
Plugging into a BMI calculator:
5'7, 185 is 29
5'11, 158 is 22
BMI is by no means a perfect measure, but that said 29 means you're ea pretty big dude. 22 is pretty average.
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On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive.
Why even bother speculating based on their body sizes? You can speculate based on their injuries. Zimmerman had substantial injuries and Martin did not. We don't have to theorize about how these 2 would do in a fight because they did fight and Zimmerman got his ass beat.
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On May 30 2013 02:30 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:26 killa_robot wrote:On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. No it's not, lol. Plugging into a BMI calculator: 5'7, 185 is 29 5'11, 158 is 22 BMI is by no means a perfect measure, but that said 29 means you're ea pretty big dude. 22 is pretty average.
And Danny Devito has a BMI of 38
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On May 30 2013 02:26 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. No it's not, lol.
Ok anyone who has ever been in a fight, done wrestling, martial arts, etc... will most likely disagree with you.
On May 30 2013 02:26 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. No it's not, lol.
Ok anyone who has ever been in a fight, done wrestling, martial arts, etc... will most likely disagree with you.
On May 30 2013 02:38 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. Why even bother speculating based on their body sizes? You can speculate based on their injuries. Zimmerman had substantial injuries and Martin did not. We don't have to theorize about how these 2 would do in a fight because they did fight and Zimmerman got his ass beat.
I'm playing the devil's advocate, that's all. Why can't I theorize about what happened before the outcome?
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On May 30 2013 02:43 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:30 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 30 2013 02:26 killa_robot wrote:On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. No it's not, lol. Plugging into a BMI calculator: 5'7, 185 is 29 5'11, 158 is 22 BMI is by no means a perfect measure, but that said 29 means you're ea pretty big dude. 22 is pretty average. And Danny Devito has a BMI of 38
he's borderline midget, so bmi obviously doesn't work for him. he's kind of round too.
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From the Wiki on Justifiable homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide
"A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, manslaughter or murder. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time."
"The circumstances under which homicide is justified are usually considered to be that the defendant had no alternative method of self-defense or defense of another than to kill the attacker."
I don't really see those conditions being met by Zimmerman considering he was large enough to fight back (or even retreat with the threat of the gun) vs. an unarmed man roughly his size who was not displaying any obvious intentions to commit a serious crime simply by walking at night.
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On May 30 2013 09:06 theaxis12 wrote:From the Wiki on Justifiable homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide "A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, manslaughter or murder. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time." "The circumstances under which homicide is justified are usually considered to be that the defendant had no alternative method of self-defense or defense of another than to kill the attacker." I don't really see those conditions being met by Zimmerman considering he was large enough to fight back (or even retreat with the threat of the gun) vs. an unarmed man roughly his size who was not displaying any obvious intentions to commit a serious crime simply by walking at night.
exactly, he had a very obvious alternative to killing Martin when the 911 responder told him not to confront the teen. He should have just listened to her, and none of this ever would have happened. the fact that he was told by an authority figure (I know a 911 responder doesn't wield as much power as the police itself, but if you're going to call 911, you better fucking listen to what the person says). He made his choice to confront the teen AND bring his gun, which to me constitutes pre-meditated murder. You can't call self-defense when you were told (and had a very legitimate option) to get the fuck out of there, and decided instead to grab your gun and do the exact opposite thing. If he didn't intend to shoot Martin right from the start, he was definitely looking to cause trouble, and it ended in a young man's tragic death, which constitutes at the very least manslaughter or third-degree murder, though personally I'd say anything less than a conviction for first degree would not be justice.
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On May 30 2013 09:06 theaxis12 wrote:From the Wiki on Justifiable homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide "A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, manslaughter or murder. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time." "The circumstances under which homicide is justified are usually considered to be that the defendant had no alternative method of self-defense or defense of another than to kill the attacker." I don't really see those conditions being met by Zimmerman considering he was large enough to fight back (or even retreat with the threat of the gun) vs. an unarmed man roughly his size who was not displaying any obvious intentions to commit a serious crime simply by walking at night.
The opinion that he was large enough to fight back is pure speculation. He looked like he had been beaten up pretty bad in pictures taken the night of the shooting. You can't judge someone's ability to fight back based purely on size. There are other factors such as ability and strength.
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On May 30 2013 09:06 theaxis12 wrote:From the Wiki on Justifiable homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide "A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, manslaughter or murder. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time." "The circumstances under which homicide is justified are usually considered to be that the defendant had no alternative method of self-defense or defense of another than to kill the attacker." I don't really see those conditions being met by Zimmerman considering he was large enough to fight back (or even retreat with the threat of the gun) vs. an unarmed man roughly his size who was not displaying any obvious intentions to commit a serious crime simply by walking at night.
Zimmerman was beaten pretty badly. There are tons of pictures on the internet which you can see.
Assuming for the moment that he did not lie, then I think his action was definitely justifiable - because Martin was essentially banging Zimmerman's head on the wall. Zimmerman had reasonable belief that he would die if he didn't do anything.
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On May 30 2013 09:19 Tewks44 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 09:06 theaxis12 wrote:From the Wiki on Justifiable homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide "A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, manslaughter or murder. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time." "The circumstances under which homicide is justified are usually considered to be that the defendant had no alternative method of self-defense or defense of another than to kill the attacker." I don't really see those conditions being met by Zimmerman considering he was large enough to fight back (or even retreat with the threat of the gun) vs. an unarmed man roughly his size who was not displaying any obvious intentions to commit a serious crime simply by walking at night. The opinion that he was large enough to fight back is pure speculation. He looked like he had been beaten up pretty bad in pictures taken the night of the shooting. You can't judge someone's ability to fight back based purely on size. There are other factors such as ability and strength.
Zimmerman made the choice to confront Martin even after being told to stay where he was, and if you choose to start shit with someone that can beat your ass, well your ass is going to be beaten in self-defense. There is no reason to think that Martin would have killed Zimmerman because he had no motive or weapon.
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On May 30 2013 09:18 Inside.Out wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 09:06 theaxis12 wrote:From the Wiki on Justifiable homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide "A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, manslaughter or murder. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time." "The circumstances under which homicide is justified are usually considered to be that the defendant had no alternative method of self-defense or defense of another than to kill the attacker." I don't really see those conditions being met by Zimmerman considering he was large enough to fight back (or even retreat with the threat of the gun) vs. an unarmed man roughly his size who was not displaying any obvious intentions to commit a serious crime simply by walking at night. exactly, he had a very obvious alternative to killing Martin when the 911 responder told him not to confront the teen. He should have just listened to her, and none of this ever would have happened. the fact that he was told by an authority figure (I know a 911 responder doesn't wield as much power as the police itself, but if you're going to call 911, you better fucking listen to what the person says). He made his choice to confront the teen AND bring his gun, which to me constitutes pre-meditated murder. You can't call self-defense when you were told (and had a very legitimate option) to get the fuck out of there, and decided instead to grab your gun and do the exact opposite thing. If he didn't intend to shoot Martin right from the start, he was definitely looking to cause trouble, and it ended in a young man's tragic death, which constitutes at the very least manslaughter or third-degree murder, though personally I'd say anything less than a conviction for first degree would not be justice.
Yeah. Zimmerman's defenders should listen to the 911 call again. Zimmerman was clearly told not to pursue Martin, and chose to anyway. If he did not intend to pursue, then why was he unwilling to tell the dispatcher where to find him at the end?
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On May 30 2013 02:59 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:26 killa_robot wrote:On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. No it's not, lol. Ok anyone who has ever been in a fight, done wrestling, martial arts, etc... will most likely disagree with you. Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:26 killa_robot wrote:On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. No it's not, lol. Ok anyone who has ever been in a fight, done wrestling, martial arts, etc... will most likely disagree with you. Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:38 BlackJack wrote:On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. Why even bother speculating based on their body sizes? You can speculate based on their injuries. Zimmerman had substantial injuries and Martin did not. We don't have to theorize about how these 2 would do in a fight because they did fight and Zimmerman got his ass beat. I'm playing the devil's advocate, that's all. Why can't I theorize about what happened before the outcome?
And being a professional fighter is a fuck of a lot different from two random guys on the street getting in fist fights. I'm 6'0 130 lbs and have been in many fist fights with people twice my size and completely beat their ass. I've lost my fair share as well, but the point stands. Weight does not matter when it's random people fighting.
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On May 30 2013 02:26 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:11 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 14:49 Millitron wrote:On May 29 2013 10:47 kmillz wrote:On May 29 2013 10:40 Aveng3r wrote:
I dont see how the criminal background that he apparently had is really relevant to the events that transpired the night of the shooting. As the guy above me said, he had a bag of skittles and tea. Unless Zimmerman somehow knew who Martin was and also somehow knew about his hidden background, how are these facts really relevant to the incident itself?
All of this aside, as some of the other posters have said, I think we need to know who initiated the confrontation, and I have no idea how we are ever going to figure that out for sure. To be honest, I don't think anyone but George Zimmerman himself knows. The thing that kind of stuck out to me was the fact that Zimmerman seems like he is a pretty big dude to be getting his ass kicked by some young kid. I don't know if he provoked the fight or not, but that part is pretty surprising to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_MartinMartin wasn't some little kid. He was 17 years old, was 5'11" tall, and weighed 158lbs. Zimmerman was 5'7" tall, and weighed 185lbs. I don't think that's a substantial enough difference to be able to say that Zimmerman should've been able to protect himself without his gun, especially considering we know neither how fit either Zimmerman or Martin were, nor who threw the first blow. For all we know, Zimmerman could've been all fat, and Martin all muscle. Edit: I'm not trying to say I know Zimmerman didn't murder Martin. But the fact of the matter is, I also don't know that he did. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm not disputing the last part, obviously we don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other and I agree. Innocent until proven guilty. I just thought it was interesting to note that Zimmerman is substantially larger than Trayvon, and older, and from just an outside view seemingly more likely to hold his own. 185 lbs @ 5'7 is a LOT bigger than 158 lbs @ 5'11 and I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that if Zimmerman was unarmed he probably wouldn't have been killed by a tall skinny 17 year old kid. Again, not saying that he was right or wrong, just that I think it's plausible to suggest he may not have needed the gun to get out of there alive. No it's not, lol.
I'm 5'11.
15lbs of muscle for me has translated to lifting more than triple the weight. Martin is about the weight I was before I started lifting rofl, and I still consider myself skinny.
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EPT
