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Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Page 53

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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.

If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post.
Sonic Death Monkey
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden991 Posts
April 26 2012 13:56 GMT
#1041
Don't think this has been posted. Very good Reuters article to put what happened the night of the shooting into context.

Reuters: George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting

+ Show Spoiler +
(Reuters) - A pit bull named Big Boi began menacing George and Shellie Zimmerman in the fall of 2009.

The first time the dog ran free and cornered Shellie in their gated community in Sanford, Florida, George called the owner to complain. The second time, Big Boi frightened his mother-in-law's dog. Zimmerman called Seminole County Animal Services and bought pepper spray. The third time he saw the dog on the loose, he called again. An officer came to the house, county records show.

"Don't use pepper spray," he told the Zimmermans, according to a friend. "It'll take two or three seconds to take effect, but a quarter second for the dog to jump you," he said.

"Get a gun."

That November, the Zimmermans completed firearms training at a local lodge and received concealed-weapons gun permits. In early December, another source close to them told Reuters, the couple bought a pair of guns. George picked a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm handgun, a popular, lightweight weapon.

By June 2011, Zimmerman's attention had shifted from a loose pit bull to a wave of robberies that rattled the community, called the Retreat at Twin Lakes. The homeowners association asked him to launch a neighborhood watch, and Zimmerman would begin to carry the Kel-Tec on his regular, dog-walking patrol - a violation of neighborhood watch guidelines but not a crime.

Few of his closest neighbors knew he carried a gun - until two months ago.

On February 26, George Zimmerman shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in what Zimmerman says was self-defense. The furor that ensued has consumed the country and prompted a re-examination of guns, race and self-defense laws enacted in nearly half the United States.

During the time Zimmerman was in hiding, his detractors defined him as a vigilante who had decided Martin was suspicious merely because he was black. After Zimmerman was finally arrested on a charge of second-degree murder more than six weeks after the shooting, prosecutors portrayed him as a violent and angry man who disregarded authority by pursuing the 17-year-old.

But a more nuanced portrait of Zimmerman has emerged from a Reuters investigation into Zimmerman's past and a series of incidents in the community in the months preceding the Martin shooting.

Based on extensive interviews with relatives, friends, neighbors, schoolmates and co-workers of Zimmerman in two states, law enforcement officials, and reviews of court documents and police reports, the story sheds new light on the man at the center of one of the most controversial homicide cases in America.

The 28-year-old insurance-fraud investigator comes from a deeply Catholic background and was taught in his early years to do right by those less fortunate. He was raised in a racially integrated household and himself has black roots through an Afro-Peruvian great-grandfather - the father of the maternal grandmother who helped raise him.

A criminal justice student who aspired to become a judge, Zimmerman also concerned himself with the safety of his neighbors after a series of break-ins committed by young African-American men.

Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.

"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

"MIXED" HOUSEHOLD

George Michael Zimmerman was born in 1983 to Robert and Gladys Zimmerman, the third of four children. Robert Zimmerman Sr. was a U.S. Army veteran who served in Vietnam in 1970, and was stationed at Fort Myer in Arlington, Virginia, in 1975 with Gladys Mesa's brother George. Zimmerman Sr. also served two tours in Korea, and spent the final 10 years of his 22-year military career in the Pentagon, working for the Department of Defense, a family member said.

In his final years in Virginia before retiring to Florida, Robert Zimmerman served as a magistrate in Fairfax County's 19th Judicial District.

Robert and Gladys met in January 1975, when George Mesa brought along his army buddy to his sister's birthday party. She was visiting from Peru, on vacation from her job there as a physical education teacher. Robert was a Baptist, Gladys was Catholic. They soon married, in a Catholic ceremony in Alexandria, and moved to nearby Manassas.

Gladys came to lead a small but growing Catholic Hispanic enclave within the All Saints Catholic Church parish in the late 1970s, where she was involved in the church's outreach programs. Gladys would bring young George along with her on "home visits" to poor families, said a family friend, Teresa Post.

"It was part of their upbringing to know that there are people in need, people more in need than themselves," said Post, a Peruvian immigrant who lived with the Zimmermans for a time.

Post recalls evening prayers before dinner in the ethnically diverse Zimmerman household, which included siblings Robert Jr., Grace, and Dawn. "It wasn't only white or only Hispanic or only black - it was mixed," she said.

Zimmerman's maternal grandmother, Cristina, who had lived with the Zimmermans since 1978, worked as a babysitter for years during Zimmerman's childhood. For several years she cared for two African-American girls who ate their meals at the Zimmerman house and went back and forth to school each day with the Zimmerman children.

"They were part of the household for years, until they were old enough to be on their own," Post said.

Zimmerman served as an altar boy at All Saints from age 7 to 17, church members said.

"He wasn't the type where, you know, 'I'm being forced to do this,' and a dragging-his-feet Catholic," said Sandra Vega, who went to high school with George and his siblings. "He was an altar boy for years, and then worked in the rectory too. He has a really good heart."

George grew up bilingual, and by age 10 he was often called to the Haydon Elementary School principal's office to act as a translator between administrators and immigrant parents. At 14 he became obsessed with becoming a Marine, a relative said, joining the after-school ROTC program at Grace E. Metz Middle School and polishing his boots by night. At 15, he worked three part-time jobs - in a Mexican restaurant, for the rectory, and washing cars - on nights and weekends, to save up for a car.

After graduating from Osbourn High School in 2001, Zimmerman moved to Lake Mary, Florida, a town neighboring Sanford. His parents purchased a retirement home there in 2002, in part to bring Cristina, who suffers from arthritis, to a warmer climate.

YOUNG INSURANCE AGENT

On his own at 18, George got a job at an insurance agency and began to take classes at night to earn a license to sell insurance. He grew friendly with a real estate agent named Lee Ann Benjamin, who shared office space in the building, and later her husband, John Donnelly, a Sanford attorney.

"George impressed me right off the bat as just a real go-getter," Donnelly said. "He was working days and taking all these classes at night, passing all the insurance classes, not just for home insurance, but auto insurance and everything. He wanted to open his own office - and he did."

In 2004, Zimmerman partnered with an African-American friend and opened up an Allstate insurance satellite office, Donnelly said.

Then came 2005, and a series of troubles. Zimmerman's business failed, he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.

That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.

In August, Zimmerman's fiancee at the time, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman reciprocated with his own order on the same grounds, and both orders were granted. The relationship ended.

In 2007 he married Shellie Dean, a licensed cosmetologist, and in 2009 the couple rented a townhouse in the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Zimmerman had bounced from job to job for a couple of years, working at a car dealership and a mortgage company. At times, according to testimony from Shellie at a bond hearing for Zimmerman last week, the couple filed for unemployment benefits.

Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.

On March 22, nearly a month after the shooting and with the controversy by then swirling nationwide, the school issued a press release saying it was taking the "unusual, but necessary" step of withdrawing Zimmerman's enrollment, citing "the safety of our students on campus as well as for Mr. Zimmerman."

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.

In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.

One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.

But it was the August incursion into the home of Olivia Bertalan that really troubled the neighborhood, particularly Zimmerman. Shellie was home most days, taking online courses towards certification as a registered nurse.

On August 3, Bertalan was at home with her infant son while her husband, Michael, was at work. She watched from a downstairs window, she said, as two black men repeatedly rang her doorbell and then entered through a sliding door at the back of the house. She ran upstairs, locked herself inside the boy's bedroom, and called a police dispatcher, whispering frantically.

"I said, 'What am I supposed to do? I hear them coming up the stairs!'" she told Reuters. Bertalan tried to coo her crying child into silence and armed herself with a pair of rusty scissors.

Police arrived just as the burglars - who had been trying to disconnect the couple's television - fled out a back door. Shellie Zimmerman saw a black male teen running through her backyard and reported it to police.

After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."

In September, a group of neighbors including Zimmerman approached the homeowners association with their concerns, she said. Zimmerman was asked to head up a new neighborhood watch. He agreed.

"PLEASE CONTACT OUR CAPTAIN"

Police had advised Bertalan to get a dog. She and her husband decided to move out instead, and left two days before the shooting. Zimmerman took the advice.

"He'd already had a mutt that he walked around the neighborhood every night - man, he loved that dog - but after that home invasion he also got a Rottweiler," said Jorge Rodriguez, a friend and neighbor of the Zimmermans.

Around the same time, Zimmerman also gave Rodriguez and his wife, Audria, his contact information, so they could reach him day or night. Rodriguez showed the index card to Reuters. In neat cursive was a list of George and Shellie's home number and cell phones, as well as their emails.

Less than two weeks later, another Twin Lakes home was burglarized, police reports show. Two weeks after that, a home under construction was vandalized.

The Retreat at Twin Lakes e-newsletter for February 2012 noted: "The Sanford PD has announced an increased patrol within our neighborhood ... during peak crime hours.

"If you've been a victim of a crime in the community, after calling police, please contact our captain, George Zimmerman."

EMMANUEL BURGESS - SETTING THE STAGE

On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman placed a call to Sanford police after spotting a young black man he recognized peering into the windows of a neighbor's empty home, according to several friends and neighbors.

"I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach him, personally," Zimmerman said in the call, which was recorded. The dispatcher advised him that a patrol car was on the way. By the time police arrived, according to the dispatch report, the suspect had fled.

On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

Police found Demeacis's laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property. Burgess was the same man Zimmerman had spotted on February 2.

Burgess had committed a series of burglaries on the other side of town in 2008 and 2009, pleaded guilty to several, and spent all of 2010 incarcerated in a juvenile facility, his attorney said. He is now in jail on parole violations.

Three days after Burgess was arrested, Zimmerman's grandmother was hospitalized for an infection, and the following week his father was also admitted for a heart condition. Zimmerman spent a number of those nights on a hospital room couch.

Ten days after his father was hospitalized, Zimmerman noticed another young man in the neighborhood, acting in a way he found familiar, so he made another call to police.

"We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy," Zimmerman said, as Trayvon Martin returned home from the store.

The last time Zimmerman had called police, to report Burgess, he followed protocol and waited for police to arrive. They were too late, and Burgess got away.

This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.

"These assholes," he muttered in an aside, "they always get away."

After the phone call ended, several minutes passed when the movements of Zimmerman and Martin remain a mystery.

Moments later, Martin lay dead with a bullet in his chest.

(Editing by David Adams, Daniel Trotta and Prudence Crowther)
Miyoshino
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
314 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-26 14:15:20
April 26 2012 14:14 GMT
#1042
Dershowitz is an academic fraud. And on top of that he is a nasty narcissistic person.

Of course Zimmerman will get off. The law is fucked and allows for first degree murder. Can't wait until more people 'murder by stand your ground' until those idiots are forced to change their laws.
Felnarion
Profile Joined December 2011
442 Posts
April 26 2012 14:30 GMT
#1043
On April 26 2012 23:14 Miyoshino wrote:
Dershowitz is an academic fraud. And on top of that he is a nasty narcissistic person.

Of course Zimmerman will get off. The law is fucked and allows for first degree murder. Can't wait until more people 'murder by stand your ground' until those idiots are forced to change their laws.


After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."


The second quote paints a picture of a man who doesn't seem like the type to go around committing first degree murder on some random black kid.

The prosecution is going to try to convince the court that Zimmerman is a racist, and that this is enough to warrant a depraved mind...But given his background, given his actions, given how many people in his community, black and white and hispanic...Have stories where he's helped them, I don't see them getting very far with that at all.
gruff
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden2276 Posts
April 26 2012 14:53 GMT
#1044
On April 26 2012 23:14 Miyoshino wrote:
Dershowitz is an academic fraud. And on top of that he is a nasty narcissistic person.

Of course Zimmerman will get off. The law is fucked and allows for first degree murder. Can't wait until more people 'murder by stand your ground' until those idiots are forced to change their laws.

Are you suggesting Zimmerman would be convicted of first degree murder without the stand your ground law? Care to elaborate because I find that hard to believe?
Miyoshino
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
314 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-26 14:57:47
April 26 2012 14:57 GMT
#1045
I said the law lets you get away with first degree murder. Not that Zimmerman did it. Obv this Zimmerman is a 90 IQ person and even if he read the law, he wouldn't understand it.

Don't go into law school if you already misread what someone types so badly. It should have been pretty clear what I said and what I did not say.

User was temp banned for this post.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-26 14:59:10
April 26 2012 14:58 GMT
#1046
On April 26 2012 23:53 gruff wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2012 23:14 Miyoshino wrote:
Dershowitz is an academic fraud. And on top of that he is a nasty narcissistic person.

Of course Zimmerman will get off. The law is fucked and allows for first degree murder. Can't wait until more people 'murder by stand your ground' until those idiots are forced to change their laws.

Are you suggesting Zimmerman would be convicted of first degree murder without the stand your ground law? Care to elaborate because I find that hard to believe?


The stand your grand law has nothing to do with this case, it's a matter of self-defense in a fight already started which is covered by a different law.

He's just angry and judgmental and insulting about everything just look at any of his posts.

User was warned for this post
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Miyoshino
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
314 Posts
April 26 2012 15:01 GMT
#1047
Thanks for the insult. Next time, take them to PM if you really feel you need to insult someone.
Hinanawi
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2250 Posts
April 26 2012 16:58 GMT
#1048
This is what media reporting of this incident has created. This is what a large number of people actually believe thanks to news outlets trying to make it as sensationalist as possible.

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


Who is going to take responsibility for the riots that are likely to occur if Zimmerman is acquitted?
Favorite progamers (in order): Flash, Stork, Violet, Sea. ||| Get better soon, Violet!
ElvisWayCool
Profile Joined March 2010
United States437 Posts
April 26 2012 17:13 GMT
#1049
"There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."


Ah, so if one black guy steals candy from a baby, all black guys steal candy from babies. This new Reuters article is trying so hard to defend Zimmerman but they just aren't convincing me...

This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.


Only thing that seems important to me. Could have not started this all by just listening to the police.
hongo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
207 Posts
April 26 2012 17:30 GMT
#1050
On April 27 2012 02:13 TerlocSG wrote:
Show nested quote +
"There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."


Ah, so if one black guy steals candy from a baby, all black guys steal candy from babies. This new Reuters article is trying so hard to defend Zimmerman but they just aren't convincing me...

Show nested quote +
This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.


Only thing that seems important to me. Could have not started this all by just listening to the police.


You should quote the whole thing and acknowledge that a black person said that.

"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

And your analogy is not very good either. As, if you read the article, it was not one instance, but 8 were reported leading up to the shooting.
Sonic Death Monkey
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden991 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-26 17:59:13
April 26 2012 17:55 GMT
#1051
On April 26 2012 23:30 Felnarion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2012 23:14 Miyoshino wrote:
Dershowitz is an academic fraud. And on top of that he is a nasty narcissistic person.

Of course Zimmerman will get off. The law is fucked and allows for first degree murder. Can't wait until more people 'murder by stand your ground' until those idiots are forced to change their laws.


Show nested quote +
After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."


The prosecution is going to try to convince the court that Zimmerman is a racist, and that this is enough to warrant a depraved mind...But given his background, given his actions, given how many people in his community, black and white and hispanic...Have stories where he's helped them, I don't see them getting very far with that at all.


Since there's basically no way of knowing who confronted who or started the fight, I think the prosecution is going to argue that Z pursuing M in the first place was reckless behaviour and that this makes him forfeit his right to SYG. I'm sure Zs past of reporting blacks will be brought up, but that will not be what their case hinges on imo.
Sonic Death Monkey
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden991 Posts
April 26 2012 17:58 GMT
#1052
On April 27 2012 02:13 TerlocSG wrote:
Show nested quote +
"There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."


Ah, so if one black guy steals candy from a baby, all black guys steal candy from babies. This new Reuters article is trying so hard to defend Zimmerman but they just aren't convincing me...


Reuters simply interviewed a lot of people in the neighbourhood, I honestly don't think they have an agenda. You'll have to make up your own mind about what was said by Zs neighbours. The woman claiming Z was suspicious of T because he was black doesn't necessarily put him in any better position, like you just pointed out, but it provides some context.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-26 18:18:14
April 26 2012 18:17 GMT
#1053
On April 27 2012 02:55 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2012 23:30 Felnarion wrote:
On April 26 2012 23:14 Miyoshino wrote:
Dershowitz is an academic fraud. And on top of that he is a nasty narcissistic person.

Of course Zimmerman will get off. The law is fucked and allows for first degree murder. Can't wait until more people 'murder by stand your ground' until those idiots are forced to change their laws.


After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."


The prosecution is going to try to convince the court that Zimmerman is a racist, and that this is enough to warrant a depraved mind...But given his background, given his actions, given how many people in his community, black and white and hispanic...Have stories where he's helped them, I don't see them getting very far with that at all.


Since there's basically no way of knowing who confronted who or started the fight, I think the prosecution is going to argue that Z pursuing M in the first place was reckless behaviour and that this makes him forfeit his right to SYG. I'm sure Zs past of reporting blacks will be brought up, but that will not be what their case hinges on imo.

you don't just get to bring in evidence of past acts willy-nilly. so-called character evidence is regularly excluded especially if used (like you are suggesting) to support some racist motive.

90.404 Character evidence; when admissible.

(1) CHARACTER EVIDENCE GENERALLY.--Evidence of a person's character or a trait of character is inadmissible to prove action in conformity with it on a particular occasion, except:

(a) Character of accused.--Evidence of a pertinent trait of character offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the trait.

(b) Character of victim.--

1. Except as provided in s. 794.022, evidence of a pertinent trait of character of the victim of the crime offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the trait; or

2. Evidence of a character trait of peacefulness of the victim offered by the prosecution in a homicide case to rebut evidence that the victim was the aggressor.

(c) Character of witness.--Evidence of the character of a witness, as provided in ss. 90.608-90.610.

(2) OTHER CRIMES, WRONGS, OR ACTS.--

(a) Similar fact evidence of other crimes, wrongs, or acts is admissible when relevant to prove a material fact in issue, including, but not limited to, proof of motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, or absence of mistake or accident, but it is inadmissible when the evidence is relevant solely to prove bad character or propensity.

(b)1. In a criminal case in which the defendant is charged with a crime involving child molestation, evidence of the defendant's commission of other crimes, wrongs, or acts of child molestation is admissible, and may be considered for its bearing on any matter to which it is relevant.

2. For the purposes of this paragraph, the term "child molestation" means conduct proscribed by s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5) when committed against a person 16 years of age or younger.

(c)1. When the state in a criminal action intends to offer evidence of other criminal offenses under paragraph (a) or paragraph (b), no fewer than 10 days before trial, the state shall furnish to the defendant or to the defendant's counsel a written statement of the acts or offenses it intends to offer, describing them with the particularity required of an indictment or information. No notice is required for evidence of offenses used for impeachment or on rebuttal.

2. When the evidence is admitted, the court shall, if requested, charge the jury on the limited purpose for which the evidence is received and is to be considered. After the close of the evidence, the jury shall be instructed on the limited purpose for which the evidence was received and that the defendant cannot be convicted for a charge not included in the indictment or information.

(3) Nothing in this section affects the admissibility of evidence under s. 90.610.

http://law.onecle.com/florida/evidence/90.404.html
Sonic Death Monkey
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden991 Posts
April 26 2012 18:30 GMT
#1054
On April 27 2012 03:17 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2012 02:55 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
On April 26 2012 23:30 Felnarion wrote:
On April 26 2012 23:14 Miyoshino wrote:
Dershowitz is an academic fraud. And on top of that he is a nasty narcissistic person.

Of course Zimmerman will get off. The law is fucked and allows for first degree murder. Can't wait until more people 'murder by stand your ground' until those idiots are forced to change their laws.


After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."


The prosecution is going to try to convince the court that Zimmerman is a racist, and that this is enough to warrant a depraved mind...But given his background, given his actions, given how many people in his community, black and white and hispanic...Have stories where he's helped them, I don't see them getting very far with that at all.


Since there's basically no way of knowing who confronted who or started the fight, I think the prosecution is going to argue that Z pursuing M in the first place was reckless behaviour and that this makes him forfeit his right to SYG. I'm sure Zs past of reporting blacks will be brought up, but that will not be what their case hinges on imo.

you don't just get to bring in evidence of past acts willy-nilly. so-called character evidence is regularly excluded especially if used (like you are suggesting) to support some racist motive.

Show nested quote +
90.404 Character evidence; when admissible.

(1) CHARACTER EVIDENCE GENERALLY.--Evidence of a person's character or a trait of character is inadmissible to prove action in conformity with it on a particular occasion, except:

(a) Character of accused.--Evidence of a pertinent trait of character offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the trait.

(b) Character of victim.--

1. Except as provided in s. 794.022, evidence of a pertinent trait of character of the victim of the crime offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the trait; or

2. Evidence of a character trait of peacefulness of the victim offered by the prosecution in a homicide case to rebut evidence that the victim was the aggressor.

(c) Character of witness.--Evidence of the character of a witness, as provided in ss. 90.608-90.610.

(2) OTHER CRIMES, WRONGS, OR ACTS.--

(a) Similar fact evidence of other crimes, wrongs, or acts is admissible when relevant to prove a material fact in issue, including, but not limited to, proof of motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, or absence of mistake or accident, but it is inadmissible when the evidence is relevant solely to prove bad character or propensity.

(b)1. In a criminal case in which the defendant is charged with a crime involving child molestation, evidence of the defendant's commission of other crimes, wrongs, or acts of child molestation is admissible, and may be considered for its bearing on any matter to which it is relevant.

2. For the purposes of this paragraph, the term "child molestation" means conduct proscribed by s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5) when committed against a person 16 years of age or younger.

(c)1. When the state in a criminal action intends to offer evidence of other criminal offenses under paragraph (a) or paragraph (b), no fewer than 10 days before trial, the state shall furnish to the defendant or to the defendant's counsel a written statement of the acts or offenses it intends to offer, describing them with the particularity required of an indictment or information. No notice is required for evidence of offenses used for impeachment or on rebuttal.

2. When the evidence is admitted, the court shall, if requested, charge the jury on the limited purpose for which the evidence is received and is to be considered. After the close of the evidence, the jury shall be instructed on the limited purpose for which the evidence was received and that the defendant cannot be convicted for a charge not included in the indictment or information.

(3) Nothing in this section affects the admissibility of evidence under s. 90.610.

http://law.onecle.com/florida/evidence/90.404.html


Alright, thanks for pointing that out, I'm just a hobby investigator :p

What about the other part of my post. That's not something I've made up myself, but I'm not 100% sure it's correct. It made some sense when I was looking at the conditions for SYG though.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
April 26 2012 18:40 GMT
#1055
On April 27 2012 03:30 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2012 03:17 dAPhREAk wrote:
On April 27 2012 02:55 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
On April 26 2012 23:30 Felnarion wrote:
On April 26 2012 23:14 Miyoshino wrote:
Dershowitz is an academic fraud. And on top of that he is a nasty narcissistic person.

Of course Zimmerman will get off. The law is fucked and allows for first degree murder. Can't wait until more people 'murder by stand your ground' until those idiots are forced to change their laws.


After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."


The prosecution is going to try to convince the court that Zimmerman is a racist, and that this is enough to warrant a depraved mind...But given his background, given his actions, given how many people in his community, black and white and hispanic...Have stories where he's helped them, I don't see them getting very far with that at all.


Since there's basically no way of knowing who confronted who or started the fight, I think the prosecution is going to argue that Z pursuing M in the first place was reckless behaviour and that this makes him forfeit his right to SYG. I'm sure Zs past of reporting blacks will be brought up, but that will not be what their case hinges on imo.

you don't just get to bring in evidence of past acts willy-nilly. so-called character evidence is regularly excluded especially if used (like you are suggesting) to support some racist motive.

90.404 Character evidence; when admissible.

(1) CHARACTER EVIDENCE GENERALLY.--Evidence of a person's character or a trait of character is inadmissible to prove action in conformity with it on a particular occasion, except:

(a) Character of accused.--Evidence of a pertinent trait of character offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the trait.

(b) Character of victim.--

1. Except as provided in s. 794.022, evidence of a pertinent trait of character of the victim of the crime offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the trait; or

2. Evidence of a character trait of peacefulness of the victim offered by the prosecution in a homicide case to rebut evidence that the victim was the aggressor.

(c) Character of witness.--Evidence of the character of a witness, as provided in ss. 90.608-90.610.

(2) OTHER CRIMES, WRONGS, OR ACTS.--

(a) Similar fact evidence of other crimes, wrongs, or acts is admissible when relevant to prove a material fact in issue, including, but not limited to, proof of motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, or absence of mistake or accident, but it is inadmissible when the evidence is relevant solely to prove bad character or propensity.

(b)1. In a criminal case in which the defendant is charged with a crime involving child molestation, evidence of the defendant's commission of other crimes, wrongs, or acts of child molestation is admissible, and may be considered for its bearing on any matter to which it is relevant.

2. For the purposes of this paragraph, the term "child molestation" means conduct proscribed by s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5) when committed against a person 16 years of age or younger.

(c)1. When the state in a criminal action intends to offer evidence of other criminal offenses under paragraph (a) or paragraph (b), no fewer than 10 days before trial, the state shall furnish to the defendant or to the defendant's counsel a written statement of the acts or offenses it intends to offer, describing them with the particularity required of an indictment or information. No notice is required for evidence of offenses used for impeachment or on rebuttal.

2. When the evidence is admitted, the court shall, if requested, charge the jury on the limited purpose for which the evidence is received and is to be considered. After the close of the evidence, the jury shall be instructed on the limited purpose for which the evidence was received and that the defendant cannot be convicted for a charge not included in the indictment or information.

(3) Nothing in this section affects the admissibility of evidence under s. 90.610.

http://law.onecle.com/florida/evidence/90.404.html


Alright, thanks for pointing that out, I'm just a hobby investigator :p

What about the other part of my post. That's not something I've made up myself, but I'm not 100% sure it's correct. It made some sense when I was looking at the conditions for SYG though.

From the OP.

Blog on why Stand Your Ground Law does not apply:

http://volokh.com/2012/03/27/floridas-self-defense-laws/


I think that will answer any questions on SYG's applicability.
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
April 26 2012 18:46 GMT
#1056
People need to realize SYG is not the only thing to consider as justification for Z shooting T in this case. If T was mounted on Z banging his head into the concrete, simple self-defense is in play. All this debate about Z disregarding 'orders' not to follow T (and thus waiving SYG) is quite irrelevant if the government can't prove Z initiated the physical altercation, which is one hell of a hurdle.

Evidence (Z's head, witness 911 call of T on top subsequently dead in the grass) points to Z in a position of simple self-defense. Unless they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Z initiated the 'physical altercation', the prosecution is in trouble. What evidence is there that Z did that ? I have heard of none, there was none in the affidavit, and didn't the investigator testify already that there was NO evidence pointing to who started the physical altercation ? Prosecution is in trouble.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
April 26 2012 18:50 GMT
#1057
On April 27 2012 03:46 Kaitlin wrote:
People need to realize SYG is not the only thing to consider as justification for Z shooting T in this case. If T was mounted on Z banging his head into the concrete, simple self-defense is in play. All this debate about Z disregarding 'orders' not to follow T (and thus waiving SYG) is quite irrelevant if the government can't prove Z initiated the physical altercation, which is one hell of a hurdle.

Evidence (Z's head, witness 911 call of T on top subsequently dead in the grass) points to Z in a position of simple self-defense. Unless they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Z initiated the 'physical altercation', the prosecution is in trouble. What evidence is there that Z did that ? I have heard of none, there was none in the affidavit, and didn't the investigator testify already that there was NO evidence pointing to who started the physical altercation ? Prosecution is in trouble.

I just want to point out that the government has already admitted they can't prove Z initiated the physical altercation during the cross-examination of the police officer investigating the case. this fact alone doesn't destroy their case though. they can still argue that he didn't act in self defense; its just a harder case to prove.
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
April 26 2012 18:57 GMT
#1058
On April 27 2012 03:50 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2012 03:46 Kaitlin wrote:
People need to realize SYG is not the only thing to consider as justification for Z shooting T in this case. If T was mounted on Z banging his head into the concrete, simple self-defense is in play. All this debate about Z disregarding 'orders' not to follow T (and thus waiving SYG) is quite irrelevant if the government can't prove Z initiated the physical altercation, which is one hell of a hurdle.

Evidence (Z's head, witness 911 call of T on top subsequently dead in the grass) points to Z in a position of simple self-defense. Unless they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Z initiated the 'physical altercation', the prosecution is in trouble. What evidence is there that Z did that ? I have heard of none, there was none in the affidavit, and didn't the investigator testify already that there was NO evidence pointing to who started the physical altercation ? Prosecution is in trouble.

I just want to point out that the government has already admitted they can't prove Z initiated the physical altercation during the cross-examination of the police officer investigating the case. this fact alone doesn't destroy their case though. they can still argue that he didn't act in self defense; its just a harder case to prove.


Minor correction:

He didn't testify that they couldn't prove it. He testified that there was NO such evidence. There's a difference between having evidence, but not enough to 'prove' something, and simply having no evidence whatsoever, as you know.
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
April 26 2012 19:05 GMT
#1059
the media is more disgusting and harmful then anything these two men did that night. the media and people's instant, snap call to burn zimmerman. I know logic and reason are rare commodities in the general public but this whole fiasco really shows how lacking we truly are as a collective nation.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
Sonic Death Monkey
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden991 Posts
April 26 2012 19:06 GMT
#1060
On April 27 2012 03:40 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2012 03:30 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
On April 27 2012 03:17 dAPhREAk wrote:
On April 27 2012 02:55 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
On April 26 2012 23:30 Felnarion wrote:
On April 26 2012 23:14 Miyoshino wrote:
Dershowitz is an academic fraud. And on top of that he is a nasty narcissistic person.

Of course Zimmerman will get off. The law is fucked and allows for first degree murder. Can't wait until more people 'murder by stand your ground' until those idiots are forced to change their laws.


After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."


The prosecution is going to try to convince the court that Zimmerman is a racist, and that this is enough to warrant a depraved mind...But given his background, given his actions, given how many people in his community, black and white and hispanic...Have stories where he's helped them, I don't see them getting very far with that at all.


Since there's basically no way of knowing who confronted who or started the fight, I think the prosecution is going to argue that Z pursuing M in the first place was reckless behaviour and that this makes him forfeit his right to SYG. I'm sure Zs past of reporting blacks will be brought up, but that will not be what their case hinges on imo.

you don't just get to bring in evidence of past acts willy-nilly. so-called character evidence is regularly excluded especially if used (like you are suggesting) to support some racist motive.

90.404 Character evidence; when admissible.

(1) CHARACTER EVIDENCE GENERALLY.--Evidence of a person's character or a trait of character is inadmissible to prove action in conformity with it on a particular occasion, except:

(a) Character of accused.--Evidence of a pertinent trait of character offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the trait.

(b) Character of victim.--

1. Except as provided in s. 794.022, evidence of a pertinent trait of character of the victim of the crime offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the trait; or

2. Evidence of a character trait of peacefulness of the victim offered by the prosecution in a homicide case to rebut evidence that the victim was the aggressor.

(c) Character of witness.--Evidence of the character of a witness, as provided in ss. 90.608-90.610.

(2) OTHER CRIMES, WRONGS, OR ACTS.--

(a) Similar fact evidence of other crimes, wrongs, or acts is admissible when relevant to prove a material fact in issue, including, but not limited to, proof of motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, or absence of mistake or accident, but it is inadmissible when the evidence is relevant solely to prove bad character or propensity.

(b)1. In a criminal case in which the defendant is charged with a crime involving child molestation, evidence of the defendant's commission of other crimes, wrongs, or acts of child molestation is admissible, and may be considered for its bearing on any matter to which it is relevant.

2. For the purposes of this paragraph, the term "child molestation" means conduct proscribed by s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5) when committed against a person 16 years of age or younger.

(c)1. When the state in a criminal action intends to offer evidence of other criminal offenses under paragraph (a) or paragraph (b), no fewer than 10 days before trial, the state shall furnish to the defendant or to the defendant's counsel a written statement of the acts or offenses it intends to offer, describing them with the particularity required of an indictment or information. No notice is required for evidence of offenses used for impeachment or on rebuttal.

2. When the evidence is admitted, the court shall, if requested, charge the jury on the limited purpose for which the evidence is received and is to be considered. After the close of the evidence, the jury shall be instructed on the limited purpose for which the evidence was received and that the defendant cannot be convicted for a charge not included in the indictment or information.

(3) Nothing in this section affects the admissibility of evidence under s. 90.610.

http://law.onecle.com/florida/evidence/90.404.html


Alright, thanks for pointing that out, I'm just a hobby investigator :p

What about the other part of my post. That's not something I've made up myself, but I'm not 100% sure it's correct. It made some sense when I was looking at the conditions for SYG though.

From the OP.

Show nested quote +
Blog on why Stand Your Ground Law does not apply:

http://volokh.com/2012/03/27/floridas-self-defense-laws/


I think that will answer any questions on SYG's applicability.


Yeah, I read that. I guess what I have trouble understanding is how one can argue for scenario M without being able to prove Z initiated the aggression. What I meant in my post was that since they can't prove who initiated physical aggression, they need to argue that Z was reckless/aggressive in the act of following M, and thus SYG can't apply.
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