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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On April 23 2012 23:53 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:41 Felnarion wrote:On April 23 2012 23:25 Velocirapture wrote:On April 21 2012 18:25 Megatronn wrote:On April 21 2012 18:03 RJGooner wrote:On April 21 2012 08:42 Zaqwe wrote:On April 21 2012 08:21 RJGooner wrote:On April 21 2012 06:45 valaki wrote:
My point of view (totally based just on my opinion, from what I've seen / read / heard so far) : So this semi-thug young adult (sorry, but he's not the clean A student the media portrayed him to be) was at a neighborhood when this other guy (with some shady things in his past too) who's duty was to watch the said neighborhood approached him because it was night time and this guy wore a hoodie, and not to mention, he was over 6ft tall, so people need to cut this "child" crap. To be perfectly honest, he would've been suspicious to me too, and not because he was black. But it seem's like Zimmerman was overly cautious and wasn't only followed the guy, but called the police too.
Okay from here, I've read several different scenarios, but in the end Zimmerman got to the ground and got injured moderately, some say, because Trayvon picked a fight with him because he was following him. He (Z) was clearly losing because in the recordings he called for help.
Now the question is, could he have felt, that his life is in danger? Maybe. Maybe he overreacted badly. That's the court's job to decide.
In my opinion even if he goes to jail, it shouldn't be more than 1-2 years. But the whole case has nothing to do with race, but some people would actually kill each other because of this...scary. 28-year neighborhood watchman follows around people armed with a gun. Gets "we don't need you to follow him" by a police dispatcher and then continues to do so. I don't know who instigated first, but all we know now is that Trayvon is dead. The whole premise of the situation is ridiculous. Neighborhood watchmen should NOT be following people around armed with guns. I hate it when people who say "well you would have fired your gun in that situation too" no I wouldn't be following around suspicious people with a gun in the first place. Why should he have not had a gun? All that accomplishes is to make Zimmerman defenseless. Is that what would make everything better for you? If Zimmerman were dead instead of Trayvon? If anything this is a lesson about the importance of allowing citizens to carry pistols in case they are attacked by unpredictable thugs. Without a firearm for self defense Zimmerman could be dead or have permanent brain damage. Don't put words in my mouth. What would have been best is if Zimmerman hadn't followed around someone he found suspicious (against what he'd been told by a police dispatcher) and then shot that person because he got into a fight with them. What should have happened is Zimmerman calls the police, lets THEM do their job and check out Trayvon. They check him out and everyone goes on their way. I'm not opposed to people owning guns. I am not opposed to neighborhood watchmen owning guns. The key word though here is SELF-DEFENSE. Stalking people who you consider suspicious and then shooting them if they get in a fight with you does not equate to self-defense for me. What would have been best would be Trayvon Martin not attacking Zimmerman while he was on they way back to his car. At least that's what it looks like to me. What would have been best is if when the 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop, he instantly stopped and went back to a safe place. I dont know what the law says about this scenario specifically but even if Tayvon didnt die Id hope that people who knowingly disobey emergency services personnel are responsible in some way for whatever results. Wasn't 911, wasn't asked to stop following, wasn't emergency personnel, no one over a phone will ever have enough details to make a call on what should be done. There is absolutely no legal requirement to obey a word they say. The correct quote is "We don't need you to do that" That is enough. The second he heard that, if at all possible, he should have withdrawn. You are right that it was up to Zimmerman to determine if it was possible to withdraw and what his options for withdrawal were as nobody could know enough details over the phone to make those calls. There is no evidence that at that moment it was impossible for him to turn and run or that if he turned and ran somebody would be in danger. If there is no legal liability caused by this disobedience then there should be.
It's pretty clear you have a stance and are arguing toward it instead of logically reasoning what your stance should be.
At no point should it be a requirement that you heed the warning of someone on the phone, without any knowledge of the situation.
What's more, at no point, as I pointed out, was he told to stop following. Until you can show that he was told to stop, I'm not sure what purpose a conversation about it has except as a platform for you to try to nail him on any little thing you can, since the alternatives are looking more and more flimsy each day.
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me and my friends have had a disscussion on this and think that this is one of those cases where theres no real "winner". We feel for Tyvon but also the defendent. Since there are still multiple parts to this case which are still in review and are going to be looked at in the court systems, its going to be interesting what each side presents when it comes to Zimmerman being attacked and how they prove there point. Thank you for keeping this updated.
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I did not read the entire thread because I only have so many years left to me, but I'll give my two cents as a CCW holder in AZ. NO ONE knows exactly what happened that night and that's basically why Zimmerman will not be charged criminally. Although AZ does not have a "stand your ground" law in place the last time I checked, gun rights are abundant here and gun ownership is encouraged generally. We still have our old relic "castle doctrine" which allows you to defend yourself and family within the confines of a residence, although case law has proven that at least in this state you can use deadly force if it is deemed that you had reason to feel in danger of losing your life. For example, a young man (whom I knew) was killed in my town last year by homeowner who saw the 19 year-old in his backyard in the early morning hours. People around here were up in arms calling for justice, but the elderly homeowner was never charged. I have to agree with the outcome. Who can possibly put themselves in the place of that old man who woke up to find a possible intruder on his property? Similarly who can know what Zimmerman was thinking as he had an altercation with Mr. Martin?
Personally I disagree with the judgement displayed by Zimmerman as gun owners IMO should avoid using deadly force at all costs and only when all other options have been exhausted. That being said, Mr. Zimmerman will most likely face a civil trial soon that could go either way for him. Most "justified" shootings in this country are followed up by civil trials initiated by the family of the deceased, this is where those defending themselves are the most vulnerable. Even if he does not go to jail, Mr. Zimmerman has a good chance of being found liable for Mr. Martin's death in some way and forced to pay a ridiculous amount of money to Mr. Martin's family. When I took my CCW class, we were all warned specifically about the dangers of facing civil actions in regards to using deadly force to defend yourself, but it was Mr. Zimmerman's responsibility to know that fact and consider it before he acted. As for me, if someone looks suspicious or is trespassing in my yard, I will call the police. I draw the line at the entrance(s) to my house and if my life or someone else's life is in immediate danger.
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On April 24 2012 01:32 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:53 Velocirapture wrote:On April 23 2012 23:41 Felnarion wrote:On April 23 2012 23:25 Velocirapture wrote:On April 21 2012 18:25 Megatronn wrote:On April 21 2012 18:03 RJGooner wrote:On April 21 2012 08:42 Zaqwe wrote:On April 21 2012 08:21 RJGooner wrote:On April 21 2012 06:45 valaki wrote:
My point of view (totally based just on my opinion, from what I've seen / read / heard so far) : So this semi-thug young adult (sorry, but he's not the clean A student the media portrayed him to be) was at a neighborhood when this other guy (with some shady things in his past too) who's duty was to watch the said neighborhood approached him because it was night time and this guy wore a hoodie, and not to mention, he was over 6ft tall, so people need to cut this "child" crap. To be perfectly honest, he would've been suspicious to me too, and not because he was black. But it seem's like Zimmerman was overly cautious and wasn't only followed the guy, but called the police too.
Okay from here, I've read several different scenarios, but in the end Zimmerman got to the ground and got injured moderately, some say, because Trayvon picked a fight with him because he was following him. He (Z) was clearly losing because in the recordings he called for help.
Now the question is, could he have felt, that his life is in danger? Maybe. Maybe he overreacted badly. That's the court's job to decide.
In my opinion even if he goes to jail, it shouldn't be more than 1-2 years. But the whole case has nothing to do with race, but some people would actually kill each other because of this...scary. 28-year neighborhood watchman follows around people armed with a gun. Gets "we don't need you to follow him" by a police dispatcher and then continues to do so. I don't know who instigated first, but all we know now is that Trayvon is dead. The whole premise of the situation is ridiculous. Neighborhood watchmen should NOT be following people around armed with guns. I hate it when people who say "well you would have fired your gun in that situation too" no I wouldn't be following around suspicious people with a gun in the first place. Why should he have not had a gun? All that accomplishes is to make Zimmerman defenseless. Is that what would make everything better for you? If Zimmerman were dead instead of Trayvon? If anything this is a lesson about the importance of allowing citizens to carry pistols in case they are attacked by unpredictable thugs. Without a firearm for self defense Zimmerman could be dead or have permanent brain damage. Don't put words in my mouth. What would have been best is if Zimmerman hadn't followed around someone he found suspicious (against what he'd been told by a police dispatcher) and then shot that person because he got into a fight with them. What should have happened is Zimmerman calls the police, lets THEM do their job and check out Trayvon. They check him out and everyone goes on their way. I'm not opposed to people owning guns. I am not opposed to neighborhood watchmen owning guns. The key word though here is SELF-DEFENSE. Stalking people who you consider suspicious and then shooting them if they get in a fight with you does not equate to self-defense for me. What would have been best would be Trayvon Martin not attacking Zimmerman while he was on they way back to his car. At least that's what it looks like to me. What would have been best is if when the 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop, he instantly stopped and went back to a safe place. I dont know what the law says about this scenario specifically but even if Tayvon didnt die Id hope that people who knowingly disobey emergency services personnel are responsible in some way for whatever results. Wasn't 911, wasn't asked to stop following, wasn't emergency personnel, no one over a phone will ever have enough details to make a call on what should be done. There is absolutely no legal requirement to obey a word they say. The correct quote is "We don't need you to do that" That is enough. The second he heard that, if at all possible, he should have withdrawn. You are right that it was up to Zimmerman to determine if it was possible to withdraw and what his options for withdrawal were as nobody could know enough details over the phone to make those calls. There is no evidence that at that moment it was impossible for him to turn and run or that if he turned and ran somebody would be in danger. If there is no legal liability caused by this disobedience then there should be. It's pretty clear you have a stance and are arguing toward it instead of logically reasoning what your stance should be. At no point should it be a requirement that you heed the warning of someone on the phone, without any knowledge of the situation. What's more, at no point, as I pointed out, was he told to stop following. Until you can show that he was told to stop, I'm not sure what purpose a conversation about it has except as a platform for you to try to nail him on any little thing you can, since the alternatives are looking more and more flimsy each day.
This is projection if anything. Anybody who listens to the tape and hears, "Are you following him? Yes. We don't need you to do that" and interprets it as anything other than the dispatcher telling him not to follow is grasping at straws. Such semantics arguments when the intent is so clear are desperate at best.
A police officer pulls you over and asks you to get out of the car. You do and he asks to search it. You say "sure, ill open the door for you". He says "I dont need you to do that". What do you do? You dont do it because this is not an ambiguous statement when given by an authority figure.
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On April 24 2012 01:59 cDgNutNFancy wrote:
I did not read the entire thread because I only have so many years left to me, but I'll give my two cents as a CCW holder in AZ. NO ONE knows exactly what happened that night and that's basically why Zimmerman will not be charged criminally. Although AZ does not have a "stand your ground" law in place the last time I checked, gun rights are abundant here and gun ownership is encouraged generally. We still have our old relic "castle doctrine" which allows you to defend yourself and family within the confines of a residence, although case law has proven that at least in this state you can use deadly force if it is deemed that you had reason to feel in danger of losing your life. For example, a young man (whom I knew) was killed in my town last year by homeowner who saw the 19 year-old in his backyard in the early morning hours. People around here were up in arms calling for justice, but the elderly homeowner was never charged. I have to agree with the outcome. Who can possibly put themselves in the place of that old man who woke up to find a possible intruder on his property? Similarly who can know what Zimmerman was thinking as he had an altercation with Mr. Martin?
Personally I disagree with the judgement displayed by Zimmerman as gun owners IMO should avoid using deadly force at all costs and only when all other options have been exhausted. That being said, Mr. Zimmerman will most likely face a civil trial soon that could go either way for him. Most "justified" shootings in this country are followed up by civil trials initiated by the family of the deceased, this is where those defending themselves are the most vulnerable. Even if he does not go to jail, Mr. Zimmerman has a good chance of being found liable for Mr. Martin's death in some way and forced to pay a ridiculous amount of money to Mr. Martin's family. When I took my CCW class, we were all warned specifically about the dangers of facing civil actions in regards to using deadly force to defend yourself, but it was Mr. Zimmerman's responsibility to know that fact and consider it before he acted. As for me, if someone looks suspicious or is trespassing in my yard, I will call the police. I draw the line at the entrance(s) to my house and if my life or someone else's life is in immediate danger.
1. he has already been charged with second degree murder. he was just released on bail awaiting trial.
2. Florida's SYG law gives him immunity from a civil trial if he acted in self defense.
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United States2233 Posts
I have a hard time seeing this case end in a conviction. Witness testimony is already called into question, and the 911 calls are rather cryptic. The rest of the evidence is circumstantial at best. What really happened that night may likely never come to light unless Zimmerman willingly divulges that information.
Also, good luck finding an unbiased jury.
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Sanford police chief Bill Lee submits resignation, but city rejects it
Sanford, Fla. city commissions voted 3-2 to reject the resignation of police chief police chief Bill Lee on Monday. According to the Associated Press, the "majority blamed the uproar surrounding Martin's death on outsiders."
Lee, who last month left his post temporarily amid criticism of his handling of the Trayvon Martin case, had planned to step down permanently, according to CNN. The Sanford city commission held a meeting Monday afternoon to vote on the resignation.
Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett said he would wait until an investigation into Lee's conduct is concluded before weighing in on the matter.
"I'm not ready to have him come back and run the police department," Triplett told CNN. "But I don't know if I'm ready for this either."
Lee--who was harshly criticized for not arresting Martin's shooter, George Zimmerman, on the night of the Feb. 26 shooting--initially announced he would step aside until the public furor receded.
"I am aware that my role as the head of the department has become a distraction," Lee said at press conference on March 22. "I have come to the decision to temporarily remove myself."
Capt. Darren Scott, who has served as interim chief during Lee's absence, will remain in that position for now.
Zimmerman was released early Monday after posting a $150,000 bond.
He was fitted with an electronic monitoring device before leaving the John E. Polk Correctional Facility, the Seminole County Sheriff's Office said.
On Friday, Zimmerman--who's been charged with second-degree murder--apologized to Martin's family during a dramatic two-hour court hearing.
"I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son," Zimmerman told Martin's parents on Friday in his first public statement about the death. "I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. I did not know if he was armed or not."
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/sanford-florida-police-chief-bill-lee-jr-step-180637247.html
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There are a lot of things about this story not making sense to me, but one thing sticks out:
7:12 - M starts running from Z
7:16 - M and Z confronts eachother
7:17 - Police arrives to the scene
Based on the 911 call made by Z and the map over the neighbourhood, when M starts running he's only about 200-300m away from home. 4 minutes later, he confronts Z. Even if he started walking, he'd get home in 4 minutes without a problem. Yet, he's found dead only 50-100m from where he first started running. From this, it seems highly unlikely Z actually chased M down in order to confront him. Besides, based on the 911 call, it seems M got a head start of about 1 minute after the dispatcher told Z to stop (the sound of wind disappeared and Zs breath calmed down, indicating at the very least he slowed down considerably).
I feel this makes Zs story more credible than the alternative of him chasing M down. The only other plausible alternative would be if M got scared and hid in the nearby area and thus the bumped in to eachother later. However, if this was true, it's something Ms girlfriend should know and the fact that she hasn't mentioned it (that M hid), makes it less likely.
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All evidence indicates that M went BACK to confront Z.
Z will be cleared.
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On April 25 2012 22:00 Fulla wrote:
All evidence indicates that M went BACK to confront Z.
Z will be cleared.
What evidence?
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Dershowitz: Prosecutor in Trayvon Martin case overreached with murder charge
Legal legend Alan Dershowitz blasted the special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, accusing her of hiding evidence favorable to defendant George Zimmerman and committing perjury.
“If I were this prosecutor, I’d be hiring a lawyer at this point,” Dershowitz said of Angela Cory, the Florida state attorney and special prosecutor who Gov. Rick Scott appointed to handle the case.
Dershowitz leveled his bombshell charges in an interview Wednesday with Fox News' Megyn Kelly. The Harvard law professor, noted for winning an acquittal of Claus Von Bulow in the case that inspired the film “Reversal of Fortune,” said Cory overreached by charging Zimmerman with second-degree murder. And he said the affidavit she filed in support of the charges was illegal because it did not include evidence favorable to Zimmerman.
“This affidavit submitted by the prosecutor in the Florida case is a crime,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a crime.”
Zimmerman, 28, is a neighborhood watch captain who admits shooting the unarmed 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 after a confrontation in the gated community where he lives, but Zimmerman claims he acted in self-defense.
ABC News recently aired a photo purportedly taken minutes after the shooting that shows a bloody wound on the back of Zimmerman’s head. That photo appears to support Zimmerman’s contention that he was being beaten by the teen when he shot him.
But Cory made no mention of Zimmerman’s wounds or photos that might substantiate them when announcing the charge on April 11. Dershowitz said she was obligated to include any and all pertinent evidence.
“If she in fact knew about ABC News’ pictures of the bloody head of Zimmerman and failed to include that in the affidavit, this affidavit is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a perjurious affidavit.”
Even worse, Dershowitz warned that by overcharging Zimmerman, Cory may have planted the seed for riots if he is acquitted, as Dershowitz predicted will happen.
“If there are riots, it will be the prosecutor’s fault because she overcharged, raised expectations,” Dershowitz said. “This prosecutor not only may have suborned perjury, she may be responsible, if there are going to be riots here, for raising expectations to unreasonable levels.”
He said it is quite possible Zimmerman was guilty of a lesser charge, but the affidavit does not support a second-degree murder charge.
“There’s nothing in this affidavit that suggests second-degree murder. The elements of second-degree murder aren’t here."
Dershowitz is not the first legal expert to question the second-degree murder charge. The Florida statute requires proof that the defendant acted in a manner that was “evincing a depraved mind.” Prominent Miami criminal defense attorney John Priovolos told The Associated Press the charge was a “huge overreach” and said Corey will be hard-pressed to show Zimmerman had the “ill will, spite, malice or hatred” needed to prove a “depraved mind.”
If convicted of the second-degree charge, Zimmerman could face a maximum sentence of life in prison. Cory could still add charges, and a jury could eventually convict him of a “lesser included” charge, such as reckless manslaughter.
When announcing the charge, Cory expressed confidence in her team’s case.
"We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before filing charges," Cory said.
But Dershowitz said Cory is the one who should be facing charges, arguing that her prosecution of the case has already taken a political turn.
“She was appointed to get Zimmerman,” Dershowitz said.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/25/dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-overreached-with-murder-charge/
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On April 26 2012 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote:Dershowitz: Prosecutor in Trayvon Martin case overreached with murder charge Show nested quote +Legal legend Alan Dershowitz blasted the special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, accusing her of hiding evidence favorable to defendant George Zimmerman and committing perjury.
“If I were this prosecutor, I’d be hiring a lawyer at this point,” Dershowitz said of Angela Cory, the Florida state attorney and special prosecutor who Gov. Rick Scott appointed to handle the case.
Dershowitz leveled his bombshell charges in an interview Wednesday with Fox News' Megyn Kelly. The Harvard law professor, noted for winning an acquittal of Claus Von Bulow in the case that inspired the film “Reversal of Fortune,” said Cory overreached by charging Zimmerman with second-degree murder. And he said the affidavit she filed in support of the charges was illegal because it did not include evidence favorable to Zimmerman.
“This affidavit submitted by the prosecutor in the Florida case is a crime,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a crime.”
Zimmerman, 28, is a neighborhood watch captain who admits shooting the unarmed 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 after a confrontation in the gated community where he lives, but Zimmerman claims he acted in self-defense.
ABC News recently aired a photo purportedly taken minutes after the shooting that shows a bloody wound on the back of Zimmerman’s head. That photo appears to support Zimmerman’s contention that he was being beaten by the teen when he shot him.
But Cory made no mention of Zimmerman’s wounds or photos that might substantiate them when announcing the charge on April 11. Dershowitz said she was obligated to include any and all pertinent evidence.
“If she in fact knew about ABC News’ pictures of the bloody head of Zimmerman and failed to include that in the affidavit, this affidavit is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a perjurious affidavit.”
Even worse, Dershowitz warned that by overcharging Zimmerman, Cory may have planted the seed for riots if he is acquitted, as Dershowitz predicted will happen.
“If there are riots, it will be the prosecutor’s fault because she overcharged, raised expectations,” Dershowitz said. “This prosecutor not only may have suborned perjury, she may be responsible, if there are going to be riots here, for raising expectations to unreasonable levels.”
He said it is quite possible Zimmerman was guilty of a lesser charge, but the affidavit does not support a second-degree murder charge.
“There’s nothing in this affidavit that suggests second-degree murder. The elements of second-degree murder aren’t here."
Dershowitz is not the first legal expert to question the second-degree murder charge. The Florida statute requires proof that the defendant acted in a manner that was “evincing a depraved mind.” Prominent Miami criminal defense attorney John Priovolos told The Associated Press the charge was a “huge overreach” and said Corey will be hard-pressed to show Zimmerman had the “ill will, spite, malice or hatred” needed to prove a “depraved mind.”
If convicted of the second-degree charge, Zimmerman could face a maximum sentence of life in prison. Cory could still add charges, and a jury could eventually convict him of a “lesser included” charge, such as reckless manslaughter.
When announcing the charge, Cory expressed confidence in her team’s case.
"We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before filing charges," Cory said.
But Dershowitz said Cory is the one who should be facing charges, arguing that her prosecution of the case has already taken a political turn.
“She was appointed to get Zimmerman,” Dershowitz said. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/25/dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-overreached-with-murder-charge/
It's a shame because if what Dershowitz says is true the case will most likely be thrown out. Iv'e seen the same happen in other high profile cases when the prosecutor intentionally withheld evidence that could help the defense.
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On April 26 2012 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote:Dershowitz: Prosecutor in Trayvon Martin case overreached with murder charge Show nested quote +Legal legend Alan Dershowitz blasted the special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, accusing her of hiding evidence favorable to defendant George Zimmerman and committing perjury.
“If I were this prosecutor, I’d be hiring a lawyer at this point,” Dershowitz said of Angela Cory, the Florida state attorney and special prosecutor who Gov. Rick Scott appointed to handle the case.
Dershowitz leveled his bombshell charges in an interview Wednesday with Fox News' Megyn Kelly. The Harvard law professor, noted for winning an acquittal of Claus Von Bulow in the case that inspired the film “Reversal of Fortune,” said Cory overreached by charging Zimmerman with second-degree murder. And he said the affidavit she filed in support of the charges was illegal because it did not include evidence favorable to Zimmerman.
“This affidavit submitted by the prosecutor in the Florida case is a crime,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a crime.”
Zimmerman, 28, is a neighborhood watch captain who admits shooting the unarmed 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 after a confrontation in the gated community where he lives, but Zimmerman claims he acted in self-defense.
ABC News recently aired a photo purportedly taken minutes after the shooting that shows a bloody wound on the back of Zimmerman’s head. That photo appears to support Zimmerman’s contention that he was being beaten by the teen when he shot him.
But Cory made no mention of Zimmerman’s wounds or photos that might substantiate them when announcing the charge on April 11. Dershowitz said she was obligated to include any and all pertinent evidence.
“If she in fact knew about ABC News’ pictures of the bloody head of Zimmerman and failed to include that in the affidavit, this affidavit is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a perjurious affidavit.”
Even worse, Dershowitz warned that by overcharging Zimmerman, Cory may have planted the seed for riots if he is acquitted, as Dershowitz predicted will happen.
“If there are riots, it will be the prosecutor’s fault because she overcharged, raised expectations,” Dershowitz said. “This prosecutor not only may have suborned perjury, she may be responsible, if there are going to be riots here, for raising expectations to unreasonable levels.”
He said it is quite possible Zimmerman was guilty of a lesser charge, but the affidavit does not support a second-degree murder charge.
“There’s nothing in this affidavit that suggests second-degree murder. The elements of second-degree murder aren’t here."
Dershowitz is not the first legal expert to question the second-degree murder charge. The Florida statute requires proof that the defendant acted in a manner that was “evincing a depraved mind.” Prominent Miami criminal defense attorney John Priovolos told The Associated Press the charge was a “huge overreach” and said Corey will be hard-pressed to show Zimmerman had the “ill will, spite, malice or hatred” needed to prove a “depraved mind.”
If convicted of the second-degree charge, Zimmerman could face a maximum sentence of life in prison. Cory could still add charges, and a jury could eventually convict him of a “lesser included” charge, such as reckless manslaughter.
When announcing the charge, Cory expressed confidence in her team’s case.
"We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before filing charges," Cory said.
But Dershowitz said Cory is the one who should be facing charges, arguing that her prosecution of the case has already taken a political turn.
“She was appointed to get Zimmerman,” Dershowitz said. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/25/dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-overreached-with-murder-charge/
So the prosecutor could get jail time for falsifying the affidavit, but the mainstream media, which has been flat-out lying to the entire country the whole time is going to get off scot free. All published news from journalists should be held to the same standards as courtroom testimonies, because that's essentially what they are. The "trial" may not be an official one, but instead its a societal one, with the public as judge, jury, and executioner.
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On April 26 2012 10:36 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote:Dershowitz: Prosecutor in Trayvon Martin case overreached with murder charge Legal legend Alan Dershowitz blasted the special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, accusing her of hiding evidence favorable to defendant George Zimmerman and committing perjury.
“If I were this prosecutor, I’d be hiring a lawyer at this point,” Dershowitz said of Angela Cory, the Florida state attorney and special prosecutor who Gov. Rick Scott appointed to handle the case.
Dershowitz leveled his bombshell charges in an interview Wednesday with Fox News' Megyn Kelly. The Harvard law professor, noted for winning an acquittal of Claus Von Bulow in the case that inspired the film “Reversal of Fortune,” said Cory overreached by charging Zimmerman with second-degree murder. And he said the affidavit she filed in support of the charges was illegal because it did not include evidence favorable to Zimmerman.
“This affidavit submitted by the prosecutor in the Florida case is a crime,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a crime.”
Zimmerman, 28, is a neighborhood watch captain who admits shooting the unarmed 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 after a confrontation in the gated community where he lives, but Zimmerman claims he acted in self-defense.
ABC News recently aired a photo purportedly taken minutes after the shooting that shows a bloody wound on the back of Zimmerman’s head. That photo appears to support Zimmerman’s contention that he was being beaten by the teen when he shot him.
But Cory made no mention of Zimmerman’s wounds or photos that might substantiate them when announcing the charge on April 11. Dershowitz said she was obligated to include any and all pertinent evidence.
“If she in fact knew about ABC News’ pictures of the bloody head of Zimmerman and failed to include that in the affidavit, this affidavit is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a perjurious affidavit.”
Even worse, Dershowitz warned that by overcharging Zimmerman, Cory may have planted the seed for riots if he is acquitted, as Dershowitz predicted will happen.
“If there are riots, it will be the prosecutor’s fault because she overcharged, raised expectations,” Dershowitz said. “This prosecutor not only may have suborned perjury, she may be responsible, if there are going to be riots here, for raising expectations to unreasonable levels.”
He said it is quite possible Zimmerman was guilty of a lesser charge, but the affidavit does not support a second-degree murder charge.
“There’s nothing in this affidavit that suggests second-degree murder. The elements of second-degree murder aren’t here."
Dershowitz is not the first legal expert to question the second-degree murder charge. The Florida statute requires proof that the defendant acted in a manner that was “evincing a depraved mind.” Prominent Miami criminal defense attorney John Priovolos told The Associated Press the charge was a “huge overreach” and said Corey will be hard-pressed to show Zimmerman had the “ill will, spite, malice or hatred” needed to prove a “depraved mind.”
If convicted of the second-degree charge, Zimmerman could face a maximum sentence of life in prison. Cory could still add charges, and a jury could eventually convict him of a “lesser included” charge, such as reckless manslaughter.
When announcing the charge, Cory expressed confidence in her team’s case.
"We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before filing charges," Cory said.
But Dershowitz said Cory is the one who should be facing charges, arguing that her prosecution of the case has already taken a political turn.
“She was appointed to get Zimmerman,” Dershowitz said. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/25/dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-overreached-with-murder-charge/ So the prosecutor could get jail time for falsifying the affidavit, but the mainstream media, which has been flat-out lying to the entire country the whole time is going to get off scot free. All published news from journalists should be held to the same standards as courtroom testimonies, because that's essentially what they are. The "trial" may not be an official one, but instead its a societal one, with the public as judge, jury, and executioner.
affidavits are signed under penalty of perjury; its illegal to lie in an affidavit. news is not. regardless, they didnt lie in the affidavit, they just left out facts, and they state at the end of the affidavit that those are not all of the facts.
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On April 24 2012 01:59 cDgNutNFancy wrote:
I did not read the entire thread because I only have so many years left to me, but I'll give my two cents as a CCW holder in AZ. NO ONE knows exactly what happened that night and that's basically why Zimmerman will not be charged criminally. Although AZ does not have a "stand your ground" law in place the last time I checked, gun rights are abundant here and gun ownership is encouraged generally. We still have our old relic "castle doctrine" which allows you to defend yourself and family within the confines of a residence, although case law has proven that at least in this state you can use deadly force if it is deemed that you had reason to feel in danger of losing your life. For example, a young man (whom I knew) was killed in my town last year by homeowner who saw the 19 year-old in his backyard in the early morning hours. People around here were up in arms calling for justice, but the elderly homeowner was never charged. I have to agree with the outcome. Who can possibly put themselves in the place of that old man who woke up to find a possible intruder on his property? Similarly who can know what Zimmerman was thinking as he had an altercation with Mr. Martin?
Personally I disagree with the judgement displayed by Zimmerman as gun owners IMO should avoid using deadly force at all costs and only when all other options have been exhausted. That being said, Mr. Zimmerman will most likely face a civil trial soon that could go either way for him. Most "justified" shootings in this country are followed up by civil trials initiated by the family of the deceased, this is where those defending themselves are the most vulnerable. Even if he does not go to jail, Mr. Zimmerman has a good chance of being found liable for Mr. Martin's death in some way and forced to pay a ridiculous amount of money to Mr. Martin's family. When I took my CCW class, we were all warned specifically about the dangers of facing civil actions in regards to using deadly force to defend yourself, but it was Mr. Zimmerman's responsibility to know that fact and consider it before he acted. As for me, if someone looks suspicious or is trespassing in my yard, I will call the police. I draw the line at the entrance(s) to my house and if my life or someone else's life is in immediate danger.
If everyone reacted like that old man you mentioned there would be a lot of dead kids in the US including myself probably, in fact I don't know anyone who hasn't at one time in their life cut through some peoples' yards or "invaded" someone's property (their fucking lawn, are you kidding me?).
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On April 24 2012 01:43 sGSuperSlinkY wrote:
me and my friends have had a disscussion on this and think that this is one of those cases where theres no real "winner". We feel for Tyvon but also the defendent. Since there are still multiple parts to this case which are still in review and are going to be looked at in the court systems, its going to be interesting what each side presents when it comes to Zimmerman being attacked and how they prove there point. Thank you for keeping this updated.
The real winner is the media. For its irresponsible reporting it has earned a lot of money in ratings. Also winners are all the race-war mongers who want to bolster "hate-crime" legislation using this poor kid's death.
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On April 26 2012 10:41 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 10:36 Millitron wrote:On April 26 2012 07:54 dAPhREAk wrote:Dershowitz: Prosecutor in Trayvon Martin case overreached with murder charge Legal legend Alan Dershowitz blasted the special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, accusing her of hiding evidence favorable to defendant George Zimmerman and committing perjury.
“If I were this prosecutor, I’d be hiring a lawyer at this point,” Dershowitz said of Angela Cory, the Florida state attorney and special prosecutor who Gov. Rick Scott appointed to handle the case.
Dershowitz leveled his bombshell charges in an interview Wednesday with Fox News' Megyn Kelly. The Harvard law professor, noted for winning an acquittal of Claus Von Bulow in the case that inspired the film “Reversal of Fortune,” said Cory overreached by charging Zimmerman with second-degree murder. And he said the affidavit she filed in support of the charges was illegal because it did not include evidence favorable to Zimmerman.
“This affidavit submitted by the prosecutor in the Florida case is a crime,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a crime.”
Zimmerman, 28, is a neighborhood watch captain who admits shooting the unarmed 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 after a confrontation in the gated community where he lives, but Zimmerman claims he acted in self-defense.
ABC News recently aired a photo purportedly taken minutes after the shooting that shows a bloody wound on the back of Zimmerman’s head. That photo appears to support Zimmerman’s contention that he was being beaten by the teen when he shot him.
But Cory made no mention of Zimmerman’s wounds or photos that might substantiate them when announcing the charge on April 11. Dershowitz said she was obligated to include any and all pertinent evidence.
“If she in fact knew about ABC News’ pictures of the bloody head of Zimmerman and failed to include that in the affidavit, this affidavit is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a perjurious affidavit.”
Even worse, Dershowitz warned that by overcharging Zimmerman, Cory may have planted the seed for riots if he is acquitted, as Dershowitz predicted will happen.
“If there are riots, it will be the prosecutor’s fault because she overcharged, raised expectations,” Dershowitz said. “This prosecutor not only may have suborned perjury, she may be responsible, if there are going to be riots here, for raising expectations to unreasonable levels.”
He said it is quite possible Zimmerman was guilty of a lesser charge, but the affidavit does not support a second-degree murder charge.
“There’s nothing in this affidavit that suggests second-degree murder. The elements of second-degree murder aren’t here."
Dershowitz is not the first legal expert to question the second-degree murder charge. The Florida statute requires proof that the defendant acted in a manner that was “evincing a depraved mind.” Prominent Miami criminal defense attorney John Priovolos told The Associated Press the charge was a “huge overreach” and said Corey will be hard-pressed to show Zimmerman had the “ill will, spite, malice or hatred” needed to prove a “depraved mind.”
If convicted of the second-degree charge, Zimmerman could face a maximum sentence of life in prison. Cory could still add charges, and a jury could eventually convict him of a “lesser included” charge, such as reckless manslaughter.
When announcing the charge, Cory expressed confidence in her team’s case.
"We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before filing charges," Cory said.
But Dershowitz said Cory is the one who should be facing charges, arguing that her prosecution of the case has already taken a political turn.
“She was appointed to get Zimmerman,” Dershowitz said. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/25/dershowitz-trayvon-prosecutor-overreached-with-murder-charge/ So the prosecutor could get jail time for falsifying the affidavit, but the mainstream media, which has been flat-out lying to the entire country the whole time is going to get off scot free. All published news from journalists should be held to the same standards as courtroom testimonies, because that's essentially what they are. The "trial" may not be an official one, but instead its a societal one, with the public as judge, jury, and executioner. affidavits are signed under penalty of perjury; its illegal to lie in an affidavit. news is not. regardless, they didnt lie in the affidavit, they just left out facts, and they state at the end of the affidavit that those are not all of the facts.
I know it is not against the law for the news to lie, but it should be.
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accessory to the crimes is a HUGE stretch, although there are probably some dictatorships that agree with your idea.
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Woww Zimm got Dershowitz... This guy is a beast, I mean if you look at his record he has only lost two murder cases. I have a feeling that he is going to get off.
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EPT
