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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On April 12 2012 04:19 momonami5 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:17 syn0r wrote:On April 12 2012 04:04 jdsowa wrote:
That being said, I absolutely agree with the assessment that the "Stand Your Ground" law creates a kind of Wild West situation where people are almost encouraged to use deadly force to protect their honor. In that sense, it is not desirable and should be repealed.
I think this case is going to have the Stand Your Ground law put under intense scrutiny. The law as the "Castle Doctrine" makes perfect sense, wherein if someone enters your house to cause harm, you have every right to protect yourself, and receive immunity for it. It doesn't make sense that people can get into a fight in public areas and end up shooting someone. yeah seems crazy right... imagine some guy assaulting you trying to rob ya, then you win the fight and bloody him up good but he pulls a gun and kills ya nobody see's it and he claims self defense and has wounds to prove it.
Or imagine a man assaults you robs you and accidentally shoots you. Then just punchs himself in the face a couple of times. Claims self-defense takes your money out of your* wallet and is praised as a hero by half our twisted nation.
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I don't see how Assault/Battery can even be considered. There was a death involved, at the VERY least it would be aggravated battery. But still, I think manslaughter or 2nd degree are the only things that can really be used.
I mean, Assault is basically being charged for threatening someone, so that is completely out of the window.
And I don't see how you have in quotes, that murder is necessarily battery. They are VERY different, lmao.
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Our society is based on individualism more than anything and we don't just walk around in the rain following kids with skittles and Arizona.
Aren't you tired of selling products? I mean really, do people have to mention the Skittles, and Arizona? It does nothing to help either side.
For that matter, the only person who was abiding to the Stand Your Ground law was Martin as he preformed his obligated duty to run from creepy men.
Calling Zimmerman Creepy isn't very fair either, he was doing his job, or at least what he thought was his job, and nothing about it makes him creepy.
Zimmerman chased him down and presumably caught him and tackled him. I mean if anyone was breaking that law it was him.
Saying that Zimmerman tackled him is you making shit up. It's never been mentioned anywhere that GZ tackled him.
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On April 12 2012 04:11 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:10 wunsun wrote:On April 12 2012 04:00 AllHailTheDead wrote:
So they are announcing charges in about 3 hours?
Are they actually going to charge him for something? Scary although i dont deem him innocent completely, I dont feel he should be found guilty of what happened Well, he's just being charged. The police believe he is guilty, and they will do all they can to prove that he is. However, the defense team will do all it can do to prove that he is innocent. Then the jury would decide. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. My question is that how can they select a jury; seems like everyone is going to have their own bias entering the courtroom. Are manslaughters Jury cases in Florida?
yes, it is a constitutional right. zimmerman may be able to waive his jury right and have a bench trial. i am not sure on Florida procedure for a prosecutor demanding a jury.
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On April 12 2012 04:24 dotHead wrote:Show nested quote +
Our society is based on individualism more than anything and we don't just walk around in the rain following kids with skittles and Arizona.
Aren't you tired of selling products? I mean really, do people have to mention the Skittles, and Arizona? It does nothing to help either side. Show nested quote +
For that matter, the only person who was abiding to the Stand Your Ground law was Martin as he preformed his obligated duty to run from creepy men.
Calling Zimmerman Creepy isn't very fair either, he was doing his job, or at least what he thought was his job, and nothing about it makes him creepy. Show nested quote +
Zimmerman chased him down and presumably caught him and tackled him. I mean if anyone was breaking that law it was him.
Saying that Zimmerman tackled him is you making shit up. It's never been mentioned anywhere that GZ tackled him.
Please don't try to contradict everything I said. It doesn't really prove anything you said originally as correct. The only reason I mention Skittles and Arizona is because I can easily relate to a kid who went out in the middle of a basketball game to pick up some snacks from the local store. I do the same thing often and that's why I mentioned it. I am not affiliated with either company. THAT is why the media used it so when you read it you're like, "The crazy man could have been following me home and chasing me when I ran after realizing it." It was creepy or crazy from Martin's point of view. A man who isn't a police officer shouldn't be following people around even if they are "suspicious". This creepy man (from Martin's POV) could have been anyone in the world. He could have just claimed to be neighborhood watch. But, why would Martin think that neighborhood watch was following him all he was doing was buying SKITTLES and ARIZONA and walking home. Again, I'm not affiliated with either company. But, I really love the new flavors of Arizona!
I said presumably. I'm sorry I said the word tackled. I should have said SHOT HIM DEAD. Would that be better?
Edit: My grammar is terrible. -_-
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On April 12 2012 04:24 UisTehSux wrote:
I don't see how Assault/Battery can even be considered. There was a death involved, at the VERY least it would be aggravated battery. But still, I think manslaughter or 2nd degree are the only things that can really be used.
I mean, Assault is basically being charged for threatening someone, so that is completely out of the window.
And I don't see how you have in quotes, that murder is necessarily battery. They are VERY different, lmao.
i agree. wanted to let people think about it and come to their own conclusion. Socratic method and all. ;-)
battery is considered a lesser included offense of homicide/manslaughter.
+ Show Spoiler +Lesser Included Offenses
FIRST DEGREE (PREMEDITATED) MURDER — 782.04(1)(a) CATEGORY ONE CATEGORY TWO FLA. STAT. INS. NO. Second degree (depraved mind) murder 782.04(2) 7.4 Manslaughter 782.07 7.7 Second degree (felony) murder 782.04(3) 7.5 Third degree (felony) murder 782.04(4) 7.6 Vehicular homicide 782.071 7.9 Aggravated assault 784.021 8.2 Aggravated battery 784.045 8.4 Assault 784.011 8.1 Battery 784.03 8.3 Felony battery 784.041 8.5 Culpable negligence 784.05(2) 8.9 Culpable negligence 784.05(1) 8.9 Attempted second degree murder 782.04(2) & 777.04 6.4 Attempted voluntary manslaughter 782.07 & 777.04 6.6
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Please don't try to contradict everything I said. It doesn't really prove anything you said originally as correct. The only reason I mention Skittles and Arizona is because I can easily relate to a kid who went out in the middle of a basketball game to pick up some snacks from the local store. I do the same thing often and that's why I mentioned it. I am not affiliated with either company. THAT is why the media used it so when you read it you're like, "The crazy man could have been following me home and chasing me when I ran after realizing it." It was creepy or crazy from Martin's point of view. A man who isn't a police officer shouldn't be following people around even if they are "suspicious". This creepy man (from Martin's POV) could have been anyone in the world. He could have just claimed to be neighborhood watch. But, why would Martin think that neighborhood watch was following him all he was doing was buying SKITTLES and ARIZONA and walking home. Again, I'm not affiliated with either company. But, I really love the new flavors of Arizona!
I said presumably. I'm sorry I said the word tackled. I should have said SHOT HIM DEAD. Would that be better?
Edit: My grammar is terrible. -_-
Maybe that's my problem, I don't relate to him in any way. I carry ID on me at all times, and respect and treat other people how I would want to be treated. I'm also not paranoid of strangers, or think they are out to get me, no matter how creepy they might seem.
My brother is a cop in New Jersey, and he talks all the time about how young peoples first reaction is to run, and it makes them seem guilty.
I don't know either Trayvon, or GZ, so I can't say what happened. I know a life was lost, and that's always a bad thing.
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On April 12 2012 04:38 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:24 UisTehSux wrote:
I don't see how Assault/Battery can even be considered. There was a death involved, at the VERY least it would be aggravated battery. But still, I think manslaughter or 2nd degree are the only things that can really be used.
I mean, Assault is basically being charged for threatening someone, so that is completely out of the window.
And I don't see how you have in quotes, that murder is necessarily battery. They are VERY different, lmao. i agree. wanted to let people think about it and come to their own conclusion. Socratic method and all. ;-) battery is considered a lesser included offense of homicide/manslaughter. + Show Spoiler +Lesser Included Offenses
FIRST DEGREE (PREMEDITATED) MURDER — 782.04(1)(a) CATEGORY ONE CATEGORY TWO FLA. STAT. INS. NO. Second degree (depraved mind) murder 782.04(2) 7.4 Manslaughter 782.07 7.7 Second degree (felony) murder 782.04(3) 7.5 Third degree (felony) murder 782.04(4) 7.6 Vehicular homicide 782.071 7.9 Aggravated assault 784.021 8.2 Aggravated battery 784.045 8.4 Assault 784.011 8.1 Battery 784.03 8.3 Felony battery 784.041 8.5 Culpable negligence 784.05(2) 8.9 Culpable negligence 784.05(1) 8.9 Attempted second degree murder 782.04(2) & 777.04 6.4 Attempted voluntary manslaughter 782.07 & 777.04 6.6
Although this is true, if he were to be convicted of Battery than I would rip up my law enforcement certification for the state of Florida, lol.
Battery is only a misdemeanor. That's like if I walked up to someone at a bar and punched them in the face because I thought he was ugly.
Next is Felony Battery, which would be like if I was at a bar, I thought somebody was checking out my girlfriend, and I punched him in the face because I'm drunk and stupid. But after I punched him in the face, he falls down onto the knife in his coat pocket and is seriously injured. Although the person did become seriously injured, there was no intent on my part to stab him.
Next is Aggravated Battery, which can also be used in this bar situation. Say that same guy is checking out my girlfriend, and instead of punching him because I'm drunk and stupid, I stab the guy. I committed a battery and intentionally or knowingly caused great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement.
Basically agg Battery is Battery with a weapon or just beating the shit out of someone with intent to cause great bodily harm.
I just don't see him being charged with any kind of battery, it would be an outrage. At least I think so. (If he was proven guilty)
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On April 12 2012 04:32 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:24 dotHead wrote:
Our society is based on individualism more than anything and we don't just walk around in the rain following kids with skittles and Arizona.
Aren't you tired of selling products? I mean really, do people have to mention the Skittles, and Arizona? It does nothing to help either side.
For that matter, the only person who was abiding to the Stand Your Ground law was Martin as he preformed his obligated duty to run from creepy men.
Calling Zimmerman Creepy isn't very fair either, he was doing his job, or at least what he thought was his job, and nothing about it makes him creepy.
Zimmerman chased him down and presumably caught him and tackled him. I mean if anyone was breaking that law it was him.
Saying that Zimmerman tackled him is you making shit up. It's never been mentioned anywhere that GZ tackled him. Please don't try to contradict everything I said. It doesn't really prove anything you said originally as correct. The only reason I mention Skittles and Arizona is because I can easily relate to a kid who went out in the middle of a basketball game to pick up some snacks from the local store. I do the same thing often and that's why I mentioned it. I am not affiliated with either company. THAT is why the media used it so when you read it you're like, "The crazy man could have been following me home and chasing me when I ran after realizing it." It was creepy or crazy from Martin's point of view. A man who isn't a police officer shouldn't be following people around even if they are "suspicious". This creepy man (from Martin's POV) could have been anyone in the world. He could have just claimed to be neighborhood watch. But, why would Martin think that neighborhood watch was following him all he was doing was buying SKITTLES and ARIZONA and walking home. Again, I'm not affiliated with either company. But, I really love the new flavors of Arizona! I said presumably. I'm sorry I said the word tackled. I should have said SHOT HIM DEAD. Would that be better? Edit: My grammar is terrible. -_-
yes thats all he was doing was buying candy at the quickie mart.
you fail to mention that it was dark out, he was in a gated community while it was raining and he was supposedly looking at houses
not sure about you but it seems to me like he took a detour where he shouldnt be.
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On April 12 2012 06:30 AllHailTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:32 justinpal wrote:On April 12 2012 04:24 dotHead wrote:
Our society is based on individualism more than anything and we don't just walk around in the rain following kids with skittles and Arizona.
Aren't you tired of selling products? I mean really, do people have to mention the Skittles, and Arizona? It does nothing to help either side.
For that matter, the only person who was abiding to the Stand Your Ground law was Martin as he preformed his obligated duty to run from creepy men.
Calling Zimmerman Creepy isn't very fair either, he was doing his job, or at least what he thought was his job, and nothing about it makes him creepy.
Zimmerman chased him down and presumably caught him and tackled him. I mean if anyone was breaking that law it was him.
Saying that Zimmerman tackled him is you making shit up. It's never been mentioned anywhere that GZ tackled him. Please don't try to contradict everything I said. It doesn't really prove anything you said originally as correct. The only reason I mention Skittles and Arizona is because I can easily relate to a kid who went out in the middle of a basketball game to pick up some snacks from the local store. I do the same thing often and that's why I mentioned it. I am not affiliated with either company. THAT is why the media used it so when you read it you're like, "The crazy man could have been following me home and chasing me when I ran after realizing it." It was creepy or crazy from Martin's point of view. A man who isn't a police officer shouldn't be following people around even if they are "suspicious". This creepy man (from Martin's POV) could have been anyone in the world. He could have just claimed to be neighborhood watch. But, why would Martin think that neighborhood watch was following him all he was doing was buying SKITTLES and ARIZONA and walking home. Again, I'm not affiliated with either company. But, I really love the new flavors of Arizona! I said presumably. I'm sorry I said the word tackled. I should have said SHOT HIM DEAD. Would that be better? Edit: My grammar is terrible. -_- yes thats all he was doing was buying candy at the quickie mart. you fail to mention that it was dark out, he was in a gated community while it was raining and he was supposedly looking at houses not sure about you but it seems to me like he took a detour where he shouldnt be.
Uhm, he was near the house of his father...
A few pages back there was a map showing the position of the murder and the route martin took... which was straight to his fathers home.
Yes, it was dark out, thats what happens at night. Yes, maybe he maybe looked at houses while walking, after all, the pavement is boring...
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hold on. after looking at that map......
is that the gated community?
so did they live in the same neighborhood? if so then fuck...kinda changes my stance on things....not many people are stupid enough to steal from their own neighborhood. now it is possible still since he doesn't live their full time but idk now
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The result is Second Degree Murder
APNewsBreak: Murder charge in Trayvon Martin case
+ Show Spoiler +TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — A law enforcement official says that the shooter in the Trayvon Martin case will be charged with second-degree murder and is in custody.
The official with knowledge of the case says that the charge against 28-year-old George Zimmerman will be announced at a news conference at 6 p.m. Wednesday. The official says he's in custody in Florida but wouldn't say where. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to disclose the information.
An arrest had been delayed because of Florida's so-called stand your ground law, which gives people wide latitude to claim self-defense in a killing and other altercations.
The lack of an arrest in the 17-year-old's death had sparked outrage and rallies for justice in the Orlando suburb and across the country.
http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-murder-charge-trayvon-martin-case-214123361.html
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An arrest had been delayed because of Florida's so-called stand your ground law, which gives people wide latitude to claim self-defense in a killing and other altercations.
I think this is nonsense. The arrested was delayed because the cops dropped the ball. The prosecutor can get practically anyone indicted. Furthermore it's not always practical to retreat when someone threatens you, i.e. if they go for a gun or a knife, it's probably better to strike / shoot then try to run away, especially if they are faster than you. Plus to run you have to turn your back on them. Obviously anything should be done to avoid a confrontation.
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Have you seen people talking on wireless sets? They ARE unnerving, muttering to themselves, are you talking to me? What are you doing? That kind of thing. I think this is an overlooked part of the whole deal. Yeah, Martin did look suspisous because those people "on wireless sets" do look kinda off.
Reason to follow, assume, confront, and shoot? I dunno. I dunno if it can be proved one way or the other. Still
I have a hard time believing in the absence of weapons Zimmerman loses that fight. This was a charged up man entering what he assumed was a dangerous situation against a much much smaller opponent. Wierd.
The stand your ground law sounds easily corrupted.
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Oh well, maybe there is some justice left in the world!
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Do we know whether there'll be a jury in the trial yet? As many others have said before me, I find it extremely hard that you could find an unbiased jury for this case.
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On April 12 2012 07:24 lolspoon wrote:
Oh well, maybe there is some justice left in the world!
Well we shall have to wait and see, but I'm inclinced to think that the prosecutor has dug up some incriminating stuff, enough stuff to warrant 2nd degree murder. I can only hope the trial goes off without too much of a circus act.
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Despite what the prosecutor said, I think they were pressured by the media and public outcry.
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EPT
