As I understand, scalp wounds typically bleed quite a bit. That is why in a movie a guy with a gash over his eye has blood sheeting over his face-- okay, not quite so dramatic, but point is, head wounds tend to bleed a lot. If you got your head slammed on rough concrete pavement, you would be bleeding from at least a fairly serious abrasion or gash. Heck, you might even have a concussion, but that particular thing would be beside the point. Even if it were treated, a competent paramedic should have bandaged the shit out of his head.
Now, we've seen quite a few versions of the video-- I agree its odd that ABC puts their... logo thing right over his head. So, this is the video linked to FROM THE CITY OF SANFORD'S WEBSITE.
I cranked it up to 480p, and the quality seems pretty good, and you get a lot of angles. I see no head injury.
On March 30 2012 07:42 Defacer wrote: Well, I guess we have a brand new, totally-reliable and objective source of info regarding Trayvon's personal life.
A slide titled "Trayvon Martin Used Marijuana Habitually," features an exchange between Trayvon and a friend about getting high. Another slide, "Trayvon Martin was a Drug Dealer" features Facebook messages and photos that supposedly prove Martin dealt drugs, including a picture of Martin posing "aggressively with a large amount of cash in his hand." It's impossible to verify the hacked messages' authenticity—like other anti-Trayvon Martin propaganda, they're probably a mix of real and fake content— but they are now being passed around as gospel among the racist underbelly of the internet, including message boards like the neo-Nazi hive Stormfront, which Klanklannon apparently frequents.
But Klanklannon included none of Martin's emails in his leak, because the picture they paint is of a normal high school junior preparing for college. A screenshot of Trayvon's Gmail inbox our source provided us is heartbreaking. Martin apparently used his Gmail account for his college search, and it's filled with emails about upcoming SAT tests and scholarship applications. ("Trayvon, now is the best time to take the SATs!") One email included the results of a career aptitude test, our source said. It "talked about his interest in aeronautics and stuff."
According to a norwegian newspaper he was expelled for carrying drugs on school property, norwegian newspapers says weird stuff sometimes though so I dont know for certain if it's true or not.
On March 30 2012 09:41 Spieltor wrote: bad gateway. if its really a pic, someone should be able to create a post with the button for inserting pictures directly into the thread from the address.
Otherwise its inadmissible.
Person above already spoilered.
It's visible. Not conclusive for me, but it's there. And I saw it in the video too.
I still want to know the answer to what I asked before though.
On March 30 2012 06:26 JinDesu wrote: I'm confused by one other thing, and I wholly apologize if I missed this in the thread.
I remember in the original thread that a short time-line based on the call times and lengths was created. The time in between Trayvon Martin's last call and the time before the police arrived to find Trayvon Martin shot was very short, if I remember correctly. I am trying to track down that information, but if someone has that information on hand I would appreciate if you can post it.
The current OP states that the phone records has Trayvon Martin on the phone when the incident/attack occurs.
Disregarding the girlfriend's hearsay, who on earth remains on the phonecall with the girlfriend when he is planning to attack someone right at that moment?
Zimmerman claimed self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck. He said he fired the semiautomatic handgun because he feared for his life.
I do not understand how Trayvon Martin was on the phone, and proceeds to attack Mr. Zimmerman from behind (as though unawares)?
i remember reading another poster say that the timeline was about one minute between when the call with his girlfriend ended, and the police arrived. i have never tried to figure that out myself though.
the family has referred to the girlfriend's testimony as contradicting zimmerman's account of what happened. whether the girlfriend's story is true is one of many issues that have yet to be determined. also, you will need to reconcile it with other witness testimony, including "John" and "Austin" who claim to have seen a portion of the fight.
i have also seen numerous statements as to what zimmerman told the police, so thats another issue yet to be determined.
"At 7.16pm, four minutes after the call began, the phone went dead." "By the time police arrive on the scene, at 7.17pm, Martin lay fatally wounded by a gunshot to the chest."
As I understand, scalp wounds typically bleed quite a bit. That is why in a movie a guy with a gash over his eye has blood sheeting over his face-- okay, not quite so dramatic, but point is, head wounds tend to bleed a lot. If you got your head slammed on rough concrete pavement, you would be bleeding from at least a fairly serious abrasion or gash. Heck, you might even have a concussion, but that particular thing would be beside the point. Even if it were treated, a competent paramedic should have bandaged the shit out of his head.
Now, we've seen quite a few versions of the video-- I agree its odd that ABC puts their... logo thing right over his head. So, this is the video linked to FROM THE CITY OF SANFORD'S WEBSITE.
Some people have a very pronounced occipital bone that can make all kinds of groove or dent looks under the right lightning conditions.
At 1:25 the officer in the video is looking very intently at the back of Zimmeran's head. Is he looking at something or a lack of something? I think the former is more often to be the case. I'm confident that better photos or video will eventually come to light. I wouldn't rush to judgement one way or the other for fear of looking like an idiot if I am proven wrong.
It does look a lot like some kind of wound in the pic Romantic made, though.
As I understand, scalp wounds typically bleed quite a bit. That is why in a movie a guy with a gash over his eye has blood sheeting over his face-- okay, not quite so dramatic, but point is, head wounds tend to bleed a lot. If you got your head slammed on rough concrete pavement, you would be bleeding from at least a fairly serious abrasion or gash. Heck, you might even have a concussion, but that particular thing would be beside the point. Even if it were treated, a competent paramedic should have bandaged the shit out of his head.
Now, we've seen quite a few versions of the video-- I agree its odd that ABC puts their... logo thing right over his head. So, this is the video linked to FROM THE CITY OF SANFORD'S WEBSITE.
I cranked it up to 480p, and the quality seems pretty good, and you get a lot of angles. I see no head injury.
I still see it at the same point as in the TYT video.
At about 1:24 you even see an officer look at the back of his head.
More than anything, that looks like a small indentation in his head where two plates meet or something. It's apparent because of his shaved/ balding head, as well as the lighting. My balding grandpa has one of those, as do various other bald people in my life.
As I understand, scalp wounds typically bleed quite a bit. That is why in a movie a guy with a gash over his eye has blood sheeting over his face-- okay, not quite so dramatic, but point is, head wounds tend to bleed a lot. If you got your head slammed on rough concrete pavement, you would be bleeding from at least a fairly serious abrasion or gash. Heck, you might even have a concussion, but that particular thing would be beside the point. Even if it were treated, a competent paramedic should have bandaged the shit out of his head.
Now, we've seen quite a few versions of the video-- I agree its odd that ABC puts their... logo thing right over his head. So, this is the video linked to FROM THE CITY OF SANFORD'S WEBSITE.
I cranked it up to 480p, and the quality seems pretty good, and you get a lot of angles. I see no head injury.
I still see it at the same point as in the TYT video.
At about 1:24 you even see an officer look at the back of his head.
More than anything, that looks like a small indentation in his head where two plates meet or something. It's apparent because of his shaved/ balding head, as well as the lighting. My balding grandpa has one of those, as do various other bald people in my life.
If it isn't a cut I would have guessed it was a recording fuck up. That is one of the best moments I have found where you can clearly see the outline of his bald spot which is why I put emphasis on there being a dark mark there.
As I understand, scalp wounds typically bleed quite a bit. That is why in a movie a guy with a gash over his eye has blood sheeting over his face-- okay, not quite so dramatic, but point is, head wounds tend to bleed a lot. If you got your head slammed on rough concrete pavement, you would be bleeding from at least a fairly serious abrasion or gash. Heck, you might even have a concussion, but that particular thing would be beside the point. Even if it were treated, a competent paramedic should have bandaged the shit out of his head.
Now, we've seen quite a few versions of the video-- I agree its odd that ABC puts their... logo thing right over his head. So, this is the video linked to FROM THE CITY OF SANFORD'S WEBSITE.
I cranked it up to 480p, and the quality seems pretty good, and you get a lot of angles. I see no head injury.
I still see it at the same point as in the TYT video.
At about 1:24 you even see an officer look at the back of his head.
More than anything, that looks like a small indentation in his head where two plates meet or something. It's apparent because of his shaved/ balding head, as well as the lighting. My balding grandpa has one of those, as do various other bald people in my life.
If it isn't a cut I would have guessed it was a recording fuck up. That is one of the best moments I have found where you can clearly see the outline of his bald spot which is why I put emphasis on there being a dark mark there.
too bad this isnt CSI. I bet you could zoom in and see Trayvon attacking him.
edit: the point i am trying to make is that with such shitty video images, it is difficult (if not impossible) to say whether there were or were not injuries. i am just going to assume that the police officer was not lying when he said that zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and back of head, and that we will know the full truth when we see the paramedics report.
Here's a diagram of a skull. The point on Zimmerman's head is where the two parietal plates meet the occipital plate, and also where the saggital suture intersects the lambdoid suture. Areas where this occur tend to be slightly indented, though hair and skin hides most of it.
It's strange how the Cit of Sanford is releasing info so slowly... it's almost like they WANT to hype the case.
*sigh*, sensationalist and hypocritical.How can you lambast media for their "spin" when you are telling me I should be mad at other black people for making my skin color the basis of suspicion?
no wonder black on black crime is so rampant. /sarcasm
For the most part, I felt the video was pretty centered and reasonable. It might've been slightly biased in Zimmerman's favor, but anyone who dismisses his argumentation outright is a lot more biased than the guy in the video, IMO.
As I understand, scalp wounds typically bleed quite a bit. That is why in a movie a guy with a gash over his eye has blood sheeting over his face-- okay, not quite so dramatic, but point is, head wounds tend to bleed a lot. If you got your head slammed on rough concrete pavement, you would be bleeding from at least a fairly serious abrasion or gash. Heck, you might even have a concussion, but that particular thing would be beside the point. Even if it were treated, a competent paramedic should have bandaged the shit out of his head.
Now, we've seen quite a few versions of the video-- I agree its odd that ABC puts their... logo thing right over his head. So, this is the video linked to FROM THE CITY OF SANFORD'S WEBSITE.
At about 1:24 you even see an officer look at the back of his head. I'll watch the rest of it to see the dark spot is just an aberration.
Might just be a crease in his head. At any rate, I think we've hit a dead end on the issue of Zimmerman's injuries; there's little more to be said without any additional information. The police got to the scene of the incident in record time, so there was no opportunity for Zimmerman to fabricate any sustained wounds- and they say he was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head. Afterwards, these injuries were treated. Either the police flat-out lied about the injuries, or they were real and caused by Treyvon Martin; however, the evidence that's publicly available right now is inconclusive.
On March 30 2012 09:41 Spieltor wrote: bad gateway. if its really a pic, someone should be able to create a post with the button for inserting pictures directly into the thread from the address.
Otherwise its inadmissible.
Person above already spoilered.
It's visible. Not conclusive for me, but it's there. And I saw it in the video too.
I still want to know the answer to what I asked before though.
On March 30 2012 06:26 JinDesu wrote: I'm confused by one other thing, and I wholly apologize if I missed this in the thread.
I remember in the original thread that a short time-line based on the call times and lengths was created. The time in between Trayvon Martin's last call and the time before the police arrived to find Trayvon Martin shot was very short, if I remember correctly. I am trying to track down that information, but if someone has that information on hand I would appreciate if you can post it.
The current OP states that the phone records has Trayvon Martin on the phone when the incident/attack occurs.
Disregarding the girlfriend's hearsay, who on earth remains on the phonecall with the girlfriend when he is planning to attack someone right at that moment?
Zimmerman claimed self-defense, telling police he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on, when Martin attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck. He said he fired the semiautomatic handgun because he feared for his life.
I do not understand how Trayvon Martin was on the phone, and proceeds to attack Mr. Zimmerman from behind (as though unawares)?
i remember reading another poster say that the timeline was about one minute between when the call with his girlfriend ended, and the police arrived. i have never tried to figure that out myself though.
the family has referred to the girlfriend's testimony as contradicting zimmerman's account of what happened. whether the girlfriend's story is true is one of many issues that have yet to be determined. also, you will need to reconcile it with other witness testimony, including "John" and "Austin" who claim to have seen a portion of the fight.
i have also seen numerous statements as to what zimmerman told the police, so thats another issue yet to be determined.
Well that's why I said to disregard her testimony - the timestamps on the phonecalls are indisputable.
This case seems to be getting more and more complex. When I first heard the initial reports of the incident I was outraged. The media portrayed it as a neighborhood watch bully chasing down and shooting an innocent, unarmed child. However, with these more recent allegations of Trayvon attackign Zimmerman (along with some witness corroboration) I've had to shift my opinion. Obviously, no child deserves to die, but as it stands now I think self defense may be justifiable. Keep in mind Trayvon was younger, but he was taller than Zimmerman, and I'm assuming he was more physically fit as well based on the fact he played football, and just judging by pictures I've seen of him. In my opinion this case is getting to a point where the only reason to continue to support the theory on murder would be if there was some kind of large scale conspiracy against Trayvon by the police department and witnesses, which I find unlikely. I think perhaps Zimmerman will get charged with some form of negligent manslaughter (I'm no expert on the law so correct me if I'm interpreting this accusation incorrectly) simply because he should never have pursued and confronted an unarmed individual while he himself was armed. That's just my two cents on this case.
If you want to believe that Martin didn't have a broken nose and a cut on the back of his head you necessarily have to believe that at least a half dozen police officers, another half dozen police higher-ups back at the station, including the detective who interviewed Zimmerman (and thought his story of self-defense didn't wash), along with the EMTs who responded to the scene, are all lying / covering up with no evidence whatsoever for that being the case.
You can play around at analyzing the human skull and not the greatest quality surveillance video footage all you want, And I can understand how some people might just claim that of course everybody is lying because that's an incredibly easy position to take as it's impossible to prove or disprove at this point, but arguing over Zimmerman's injuries or lack thereof is basically a sideshow.
What is actually consequential are these two parts of Zimmerman's story:
1) Was he actually heading back towards his vehicle, a.k.a retreating from the situation, when the fight started?
2) Was it Zimmerman yelling for help, as he claims? (As opposed to Martin being the one yelling for help, as his family has claimed.)
If the answer to 1) and 2) are both "yes," there is no case for charging Zimmerman that will stand up to a good defense lawyer.
If only the answer to 1) is yes, involuntary manslaughter or some other charge like criminally negligent homicide is appropriate, as that would imply Zimmerman got the upper hand and decided in the heat of the moment to shoot Martin to end the fight.
If the answer to both is "no," second-degree murder or voluntary manslaughter would be appropriate.
For the sake of "injuries" and the debate that seems to be centered around it currently within the last few pages I'd like to contribute.
I have broken my nose 4 times and it never bled once. As for the possible cut on his head, not all cuts bleed either. On the other hand I've seen broken noses gush blood like a fountain and I've seen people covered in blood from tiny cuts on their head.
It just seems silly to debate or argue about that this, this early though. We have very poor evidence to support either side.
Anyway as for the OP in general, I find the whole thing a conundrum. There are so many issues surrounding it that I don't even know where to properly begin. I don't think either party was actually as innocent as it turns out to be. I'd really like to take this into further detail but I feel anything I've said has already been said. I'll just wait to see how this pans out I suppose.
It's really unfortunate that the youth lost his life though. Even if Zimmerman's story is completely true, I don't think killing someone is appropriate. However I'm pretty comfortable with fighting and I never actually fear for my life so my opinion is quite biased.
On March 30 2012 13:40 Tewks44 wrote: This case seems to be getting more and more complex. When I first heard the initial reports of the incident I was outraged. The media portrayed it as a neighborhood watch bully chasing down and shooting an innocent, unarmed child. However, with these more recent allegations of Trayvon attackign Zimmerman (along with some witness corroboration) I've had to shift my opinion. Obviously, no child deserves to die, but as it stands now I think self defense may be justifiable. Keep in mind Trayvon was younger, but he was taller than Zimmerman, and I'm assuming he was more physically fit as well based on the fact he played football, and just judging by pictures I've seen of him. In my opinion this case is getting to a point where the only reason to continue to support the theory on murder would be if there was some kind of large scale conspiracy against Trayvon by the police department and witnesses, which I find unlikely. I think perhaps Zimmerman will get charged with some form of negligent manslaughter (I'm no expert on the law so correct me if I'm interpreting this accusation incorrectly) simply because he should never have pursued and confronted an unarmed individual while he himself was armed. That's just my two cents on this case.
Zimmerman will most likely get charged with negligent manslaughter just because he disobeyed orders to stay in his vehicle and not pursue Trayvon. Now Zimmerman might get a low charge to 3-6 months in jail, but if he does go to jail he will have to be put in double lock down where inmates cant get to him. From my experience as a CO this is what ill see happening to Zimmerman.
On March 30 2012 13:40 Tewks44 wrote: This case seems to be getting more and more complex. When I first heard the initial reports of the incident I was outraged. The media portrayed it as a neighborhood watch bully chasing down and shooting an innocent, unarmed child. However, with these more recent allegations of Trayvon attackign Zimmerman (along with some witness corroboration) I've had to shift my opinion. Obviously, no child deserves to die, but as it stands now I think self defense may be justifiable. Keep in mind Trayvon was younger, but he was taller than Zimmerman, and I'm assuming he was more physically fit as well based on the fact he played football, and just judging by pictures I've seen of him. In my opinion this case is getting to a point where the only reason to continue to support the theory on murder would be if there was some kind of large scale conspiracy against Trayvon by the police department and witnesses, which I find unlikely. I think perhaps Zimmerman will get charged with some form of negligent manslaughter (I'm no expert on the law so correct me if I'm interpreting this accusation incorrectly) simply because he should never have pursued and confronted an unarmed individual while he himself was armed. That's just my two cents on this case.
Zimmerman will most likely get charged with negligent manslaughter just because he disobeyed orders to stay in his vehicle and not pursue Trayvon. Now Zimmerman might get a low charge to 3-6 months in jail, but if he does go to jail he will have to be put in double lock down where inmates cant get to him. From my experience as a CO this is what ill see happening to Zimmerman.
I don't have an answer as to what Zimmerman's just punishment would be, maybe it would be just if he received none, maybe it is manslaughter. I just hope a court atleast makes him answer for what he did that night. This matter does not seem like something the police should make a judgement on, not in the least because of the doubt the public has about their competence. It wouldn't feel right to me if he never has to set foot in a court of law.
I also think an investigation into the decisions made by the police that night may be prudent, some things just don't add up.
On March 30 2012 13:40 Tewks44 wrote: This case seems to be getting more and more complex. When I first heard the initial reports of the incident I was outraged. The media portrayed it as a neighborhood watch bully chasing down and shooting an innocent, unarmed child. However, with these more recent allegations of Trayvon attackign Zimmerman (along with some witness corroboration) I've had to shift my opinion. Obviously, no child deserves to die, but as it stands now I think self defense may be justifiable. Keep in mind Trayvon was younger, but he was taller than Zimmerman, and I'm assuming he was more physically fit as well based on the fact he played football, and just judging by pictures I've seen of him. In my opinion this case is getting to a point where the only reason to continue to support the theory on murder would be if there was some kind of large scale conspiracy against Trayvon by the police department and witnesses, which I find unlikely. I think perhaps Zimmerman will get charged with some form of negligent manslaughter (I'm no expert on the law so correct me if I'm interpreting this accusation incorrectly) simply because he should never have pursued and confronted an unarmed individual while he himself was armed. That's just my two cents on this case.
Zimmerman will most likely get charged with negligent manslaughter just because he disobeyed orders to stay in his vehicle and not pursue Trayvon. Now Zimmerman might get a low charge to 3-6 months in jail, but if he does go to jail he will have to be put in double lock down where inmates cant get to him. From my experience as a CO this is what ill see happening to Zimmerman.
I don't have an answer as to what Zimmerman's just punishment would be, maybe it would be just if he received none, maybe it is manslaughter. I just hope a court atleast makes him answer for what he did that night. This matter does not seem like something the police should make a judgement on, not in the least because of the doubt the public has about their competence. It wouldn't feel right to me if he never has to set foot in a court of law.
I also think an investigation into the decisions made by the police that night may be prudent, some things just don't add up.
I agree that there are a few things that may seem off, it could be just that we as the public do not have enough knowledge of the facts to piece everything together perfectly. We just dont know, but we as the public arnt the courts, judge, or jury for the case and cant say much. All i say is my prediction as to what he could get charged with.
On March 30 2012 20:29 BrownBagin wrote: Zimmerman will most likely get charged with negligent manslaughter just because he disobeyed orders to stay in his vehicle and not pursue Trayvon. Now Zimmerman might get a low charge to 3-6 months in jail, but if he does go to jail he will have to be put in double lock down where inmates cant get to him. From my experience as a CO this is what ill see happening to Zimmerman.
Which will be a difficult case to make as the police have stated that was not an order which Zimmerman was legally required to follow.
The facts are confounding and inconclusive. But the tendency in the first days by some, including Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and an angry chorus of followers, was to rush to judgment with little regard for fairness, due process, or respect for the terrible death of a young man
A mob mentality seems to be in the ascendancy.
...
These actions and words illustrate a problem in dealing with Martin's death: Many people are not on an impartial hunt for justice but are exploiting this crisis for personal or political gain and claiming that it is representative of larger societal problems.
...
It's clear that some of the people raising the most noise are trying to make this less about the horrible death of a young man and more about claims of racial resentment that may or may not exist.
The loudest voices should be particularly careful not to rush to conclusions. Remember the Duke lacrosse case, in which members of the team were accused of a gang rape. The public rushed to judgment long before the young men were eventually acquitted.
Zimmerman may or may not be guilty; there may or may not be racial motivations. We do not know yet. In the absence of complete evidence, inflammatory comments and belligerent reactions will not aid the search for justice. An angry crowd should not be in charge.
...
The leading cause of death for black male teenagers is homicide, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Of all the black homicide victims, about 93% are killed by other black people. In 2011, nearly 85% of all people murdered in Philadelphia were black. Where are the marches and protests for these victims? Is it justice people seek or are they looking and even hoping for signs of white racism so they can exploit it?
While we wait and respect due process of law, we should do our part to uplift human personality. We can do so by giving both Martin and Zimmerman a just weighing of the evidence, both in the court of law and public opinion. Let us not assume the worst of anybody but be guided by the facts.
The leading cause of death for black male teenagers is homicide, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Of all the black homicide victims, about 93% are killed by other black people. In 2011, nearly 85% of all people murdered in Philadelphia were black. Where are the marches and protests for these victims? Is it justice people seek or are they looking and even hoping for signs of white racism so they can exploit it?
Yeah but... at least those are considered homocide - someone is to blame. In this case...
To add to the "Rush to judgement" bit though - it turns out Spike Lee tried to tweet Zimmerman's address and ended up tweeting the wrong address. Ouch.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i42.tinypic.com/241s86u.jpg)
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