On February 03 2012 20:42 brimestone wrote: I don't think its anything to do with ur surroundings or this and that. I think its a matter of choice. She fried hamsters and killed a neighbors dog?
What motivates people to make the choices they make is part of the nature vs nurture debate.
In other words, you cant say she isnt a product of her environment because she 'made the choice' to fry hamsters. Your mindset is a product of your environment, and your choices are a product of your mindset.
This is interesting. More disturbing than anything.
But, I have recently been reading books by Sylvia Brown, a renown physic, more out of curiosity and just to gain more perspective in general. Do I believe everything shes says, no, but a lot of things she teaches about is pretty interesting. She mentions that people can choose to either be light or dark entities.
To sparknote it, dark entities only live to cause pain and trouble for the light entities, aka generally good people. We each choose our path and once it is set, we are stuck with it. Of course there are grey ones that are on the fence, usually seemingly good people that out of no where do something dark and crazy, such as go on a murdering spree. Just interesting in general and the more I look at the world around me, the more of what she says makes sense. Just some thoughts I felt like sharing.
On February 03 2012 05:35 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I can't help but be a bit impressed here. This bitch managed to do things no kid should be able to manage. Thank god she's gonna spend the rest of her life in prison before she gets older and decides to blow up a nuclear reactor. I swear, that girl is a killing prodigy.
It must be simple being you, you have an easy life. I recall when I was just 5 years of age (My IQ was probably similar to yours, back then) I had some much joy in being ignorant. Enjoy your stupidity while it lasts, How this girl managed to perform her depraved acts, is not interesting, much more, how you manage to dress yourself every morning, that, is interesting.
How is this not impressive? Whenever a person does something that almost no one else has done, it is quite impressive. I sincerely hope you are just trolling. That is the only explanation I can come to as to why you would put so much effort into trying to appear intelligent in a post, and insulting another persons intelligence, while that persons managed to actually make a post with no spelling or miscapitalization errors, much unlike your own.
Spelling has very, very little to do with intelligence.
On February 03 2012 14:31 frogmelter wrote: I've been in a mostly good mood today but this thread is ruining it...
Every time I visit teamliquid and see this story on the side bar, my mood immediately takes a nosedive....
Happened like... 5 times already. Hiding the general section for now....
So your good mood is predicated on maintaining the delusion that the world isn't often a violent, fucked up place?
I guess that makes sense. Most happy people I meet are pretty naive and expert at denial. I wonder why I have this urge to embrace reality at every turn...
Because you're intelligent.
*delusional
No brain has the capacity to embrace "reality" at every turn, because:
1) Define "reality". 2) Every being has a different environment and a different scale of gravity. 3) The human mind is delusional by essence (Texas sharpshooter fallacy, priming, the confirmation bias, the hindsight bias, the just-world fallacy, etc, etc). 4) The stress generated by our environment requires some sort of relief, thus culture, games, sleep.
As Eisenstein said about Disney's movies, a man is like a bow, you can't pull the string forever. Relaxation is needed at some point to protect your own body and mind.
The very idea that you "need to embrace reality" is a delusion crafted by your brain to boost your self-esteem and value your own opinion over other's.
On February 03 2012 20:42 brimestone wrote: I don't think its anything to do with ur surroundings or this and that. I think its a matter of choice. She fried hamsters and killed a neighbors dog?
What motivates people to make the choices they make is part of the nature vs nurture debate.
In other words, you cant say she isnt a product of her environment because she 'made the choice' to fry hamsters. Your mindset is a product of your environment, and your choices are a product of your mindset.
Yes of course, that doesnt exatcly cross the possibilities of genetic disorder, its like.. She could have some kind of empathy disorder and it was later influenced by environment (her mother etc), she expressed herself by killing others/ making pain mimicking her mother, but it was not exatcly driven by surrow but rather curiosity/"boredom". Maybe it was like searching for her identity, in a twisted way. She couldnt feel anything towards other people in normal way so maybe the act of killing could give her this.
The notes in her diary are inconclusive. The girl who ruthlessly kills wouldnt use a diary its impractical and serve no purpose, it was maybe a fake identity she wanted to build or maybe she wanted to mimick other people behavior, just to feel something? You can always build up a fake excitement or give fake meaning to something if you believe in this.
Just some random ideas, would be interesting to hear from someone who knows the subject more.
I feel its raelly interesting psychological case, those are really rare cases, mostly seen in fiction works.
"But with her there was a complete absence of emotion and reason."
from her diary it seems clear that she does have emotion and reason, she is getting a thrill off killing and even experiences joy at what she did.
seems like a giant contradiction to me, trying to dehumanise someone who is pretty much inhuman already.
on the death sentence point, it can't happen in the UK, nothing warrants the death penalty over here, not even high treason (treason law changed in 1998). death may be too good for her, she relishes the idea too much for it to be a punishment
To me this sounds like some kind of sexual excitement thing. Such as some people get a kick out of eating people, some people like to have sex with dead people. Theres alot of crazy sexual orentiasitions.
These things may not come out before someone is older in full, but you can find traces of it in childhood. Also the fact that the womans sexual organs were mutilated.
Thats at least what it sounds like to me. Someone getting a kick out of sexual orientation for killing and causing pain.
That backstory sounds like something you would see from a supervillain in a comic book. Weird that it's real, but it's not a surprise that people like this really exist, albeit unfortunate.
Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
She has all the traits of a stereotypical serial killer.
The girl's writing is uncanny for her age. Just gave me an idea for a new screenplay. Won't share the title until I get the copyrights.
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Why do people think its evil? Evil is knowing soemthing is wrong and doing it anyway - she is just getting fucked up after doing soemthing wrong.
She has clearly been fucked up by something. Kids live in a dream world where they are still constructing their identity. Yes you made up who you were and then reinforced it over the years so that its habit, that is personality.
She is a product of everything around her - its not evil. The problem is that she did something that was 'wrong' and probably wanted to do it because she got pissed off. She accomplished her goal (hence feeling good about it) - and really killing someone you dont like is a fairly natural impulse its just that you get trained into it being 'something you never do' early on. For obvious reasons, if people kill then the cycle will never end (much like with war) so we trained ourselves socially not to do it. But a 12 year old is still discovering and buying into all this stuff.
Killing hundreds or thousands of people DOES make sense from all kinds of angles. Its totally morally corrupt and wrong from many others. Population control, resource shortages the destruction of the planet, world peace all can only really be realized by at least implicitly killing many many people or potential people. Be it through birth control, education or just voluntary slaughter it would solve real problems. The point being that rationality and morality really ahve nothing do with each other - or else it wouldnt be endlessly debated.
Also murder is not implicitly wrong. Even the most base simpleton would say that killing someone is not the most wrong option in some situations. So for someone to want to be the person making the right wrong and beign a hero is not at all unbelievable.
Which makes a 12 yo killing someone because they are 'clearly deserving' not unbelieveable at all - especially given that ideas of consequences are really badly formed in adults yet alone kids. Yeah adults get consequences, but how many are able to bear then in mind in emotional situations (very few).
Then all this crazy shit she is spurting out is because she doesnt mesh with the rest of society anymore due to her actions and is having a really shitty time reconciling that. Her imagination goes wild, she is forced to say it out loud to psychiatrists that just makes it more real - because they take this shit WAY to seriously and want to be the person who found the next really fucked up kid. The one off expression of something internal becomes a real piece of imagry by which they identify the girl (like kids in a playgound picking on the guy who shat himself or something), everything spirals around and one fucked up little girl is the inevitable product because eventually she will identify with what she is being labelled as. Moreover getting that kind of attention and *care* is probalby what was needed in the first place, but its not the constructive and loving kids. Its the kind that instills self doubt andanalysis rather than the drive to go out and just do stuff which further perpetuates the nice spiral into destruction.
'Sexual excitement' you think that because it was implied in the origional article - in a not very subtle way. When you are at that age sex stuff is fun *because if feels good*. There is nothing wrong with hedonism unless you are an adult who has been strongly trained to associate kids and sex as being 'a bad thing' - for good reason imo. But taking a hedonistic feeling and saying its sexual is crazy, the kid is probably associating everything with an orgasmic feeling. Its just you that is associating that with sex. Thats asserting causation from a correlation. A child flopping his dick out and having a tug makes sense, i worry more abotu the ones that you dont havew to teach 'that is not something you do in public too' they clearly are not creative or imaginative and have not found natures way of dealing with boredom ;p
Its all quite sad.
As for death penalty: are you religious? do you believe in punishment? If so why kill someone who is clearly torturing themselves? just give them more therapy to help fuck em up more. Killing is such an unimaginative punishment that depends on some form of negative afterlife. Stop hating then these people who are infused with hatred cannot be reinforced until you get people like this.
As for dualisms: They are opposites generated out of a system that cannot be comprehended to capture seemingly conflicting aspects that we cannot reconcile rationally. Debates about dualism are done by people who don't seem to get that the dualism was used to illustrate this and was designed not to be reconciled. The way you describe a problem to someone is by breaking it into separate lumps to make it digestible. To then say 'but these lumps are incompatible and different' totally misunderstands why it was done in the first place - that they are different *is* the meaning not the problem. Congrats on thinking, but step back a bit Mind and body describe the human condition. Mind makes no sense on its own, nor does body - they rely on their mutual exclusivity for their meaning. Like the good and evilness of an action.
Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings.
First, empathy does not equal feelings. It just means that you do not feel what other people feel (or more accurately , you can't imagine what other people would feel). But you still have feelings if something bad or good does occure to you.
And infact, "psychopathy" is a categorized mentally disorder, with one of the main symptoms is that you can't feel empathy, so i wonder how you come to the conclusion that noone is born with it, as psychopathy always correlates with structural brain differences.
The thing that bugs me the most about persons like this is, that really the only thing that seems to stop people from killing other people is the fact that you suffer if you do it. It seems like rational arguments don't affect behaviour at all.
Whoa. Super interesting. I wonder what she looks like. Probably looks normal, but I'm sure I'm not the only one imagining the girl out of 'The Ring' :D
On February 03 2012 04:50 Integra wrote: There are people with mental disorders that feels joy in seeing other people suffer, I guess that is what she has.
It's not a mental disorder. It's just a different way of enjoying life. Why are you so judgmental? Nothing wrong with a little sadism. MURDERING someone for pleasure is a completely different thing.
Well, injuring someone for pleasure and killing someone for pleasure sounds kinda similar too me. dontcha think?? 0.o
On February 03 2012 04:50 Integra wrote: There are people with mental disorders that feels joy in seeing other people suffer, I guess that is what she has.
It's not a mental disorder. It's just a different way of enjoying life. Why are you so judgmental? Nothing wrong with a little sadism. MURDERING someone for pleasure is a completely different thing.
Well, injuring someone for pleasure and killing someone for pleasure sounds kinda similar too me. dontcha think?? 0.o
Depends on your definition of "injury", I guess. Some people are quite adept at inflicting pain in BDSM situations without any physical consequences.
Not my cup of tea, but if some people like getting whipped by a chick wearing tight leather I've got no problem with it.
Well, injuring someone for pleasure and killing someone for pleasure sounds kinda similar too me. dontcha think
Well actually its not, i think a pretty good example how her judgement works and how the judgement of a normal person works is to put it like that:
I think "malicious joy" is a word that is familiar to many people. What is basically says is you harm someone or someone does something awkward and you feel joy about it. So if you should decide, should i do something "bad"? , you could put it into an equation like:
"the joy i get" - "how bad will i feel?" , where "how bad will i feel?" is just determined by your empathy, where you imagine you are in that situation and how you would feel.
If you are thinking about murdering someone, "normal" persons will always get to the conclusion that its not a good idea, because putting it in the terms regarding the equation above, the result will be very negative.
But for persons who don't feel empathy the "how bad will i feel?" value is always 0 it just does not affect the way they feel at all. Even if killing someone gives them 10 minutes of joy, they'll simply do it. Theres no emotional downside for them.
But the important thing is, the way persons make their decisions, no matter if they feel empathy or not, is basically the same, but for normal persons , killing someone will nearly never outweigh on the positive side. But that was not their decision,and to feel empathy not ours, so its really stupid to say something like "put her in a cell and let her rot" because the way someone feels is determined by your brain, or in other words by your genes, or atleast it is shaped through specific environmental input that you also have no control of, or somewhere in between, but definetly its not a personal decision that you just make, and no achievement of yourself.
EPT
