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@ MrTortoise: Your post made me throw up a little in my mouth.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote:
Why do people think its evil? Evil is knowing soemthing is wrong and doing it anyway - she is just getting fucked up after doing soemthing wrong.
She has clearly been fucked up by something. Kids live in a dream world where they are still constructing their identity. Yes you made up who you were and then reinforced it over the years so that its habit, that is personality.
She is a product of everything around her - its not evil. The problem is that she did something that was 'wrong' and probably wanted to do it because she got pissed off. She accomplished her goal (hence feeling good about it) - and really killing someone you dont like is a fairly natural impulse its just that you get trained into it being 'something you never do' early on. For obvious reasons, if people kill then the cycle will never end (much like with war) so we trained ourselves socially not to do it. But a 12 year old is still discovering and buying into all this stuff.
There is no way to tell whether inhibition vs. killing is purely socialized. If we wanted to speculate, we could as well assume that humans have a natural 'bite inhibition' like many other mammals.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote:Killing hundreds or thousands of people DOES make sense from all kinds of angles. Its totally morally corrupt and wrong from many others. Population control, resource shortages the destruction of the planet, world peace all can only really be realized by at least implicitly killing many many people or potential people. Be it through birth control, education or just voluntary slaughter it would solve real problems. The point being that rationality and morality really ahve nothing do with each other - or else it wouldnt be endlessly debated.
First of all, the girl was hardly trying to solve world problems. Secondly, when we're debating morals, I fail to see how birth control, education, and voluntary slaughter could possibly end up in the same category. Last, morality is, at least to a good degree, rational.
Argument: I will torture and kill when I feel like it.
Counterargument: What if everybody would do that?
That's rational. Our ideas of justice, or equality, are based upon reasoning about consequences, about generalization, about cause and effect, about adequacy, regularity, etc. All these thoughts are guided by reason.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote:Also murder is not implicitly wrong. Even the most base simpleton would say that killing someone is not the most wrong option in some situations. So for someone to want to be the person making the right wrong and beign a hero is not at all unbelievable.
Yes, murder is wrong, implicitly and explicitly. What you're failing to see here is called relativity. You have rules and exceptions. Although in regard to such a strong regularity, I wouldn't even speak of exceptions... what you're speaking of are freak cases.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote:Which makes a 12 yo killing someone because they are 'clearly deserving' not unbelieveable at all - especially given that ideas of consequences are really badly formed in adults yet alone kids. Yeah adults get consequences, but how many are able to bear then in mind in emotional situations (very few).
Then all this crazy shit she is spurting out is because she doesnt mesh with the rest of society anymore due to her actions and is having a really shitty time reconciling that. Her imagination goes wild, she is forced to say it out loud to psychiatrists that just makes it more real - because they take this shit WAY to seriously and want to be the person who found the next really fucked up kid. The one off expression of something internal becomes a real piece of imagry by which they identify the girl (like kids in a playgound picking on the guy who shat himself or something), everything spirals around and one fucked up little girl is the inevitable product because eventually she will identify with what she is being labelled as. Moreover getting that kind of attention and *care* is probalby what was needed in the first place, but its not the constructive and loving kids. Its the kind that instills self doubt andanalysis rather than the drive to go out and just do stuff which further perpetuates the nice spiral into destruction.
'Sexual excitement' you think that because it was implied in the origional article - in a not very subtle way. When you are at that age sex stuff is fun *because if feels good*. There is nothing wrong with hedonism unless you are an adult who has been strongly trained to associate kids and sex as being 'a bad thing' - for good reason imo. But taking a hedonistic feeling and saying its sexual is crazy, the kid is probably associating everything with an orgasmic feeling. Its just you that is associating that with sex. Thats asserting causation from a correlation. A child flopping his dick out and having a tug makes sense, i worry more abotu the ones that you dont havew to teach 'that is not something you do in public too' they clearly are not creative or imaginative and have not found natures way of dealing with boredom ;p
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc does not work that way. It's not like you'd have to correlate data to tell whether you're sexually aroused. I won't go into details, but you might want to check those biology books again.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote:Its all quite sad. As for death penalty: are you religious? do you believe in punishment? If so why kill someone who is clearly torturing themselves? just give them more therapy to help fuck em up more. Killing is such an unimaginative punishment that depends on some form of negative afterlife. Stop hating then these people who are infused with hatred cannot be reinforced until you get people like this. As for dualisms: They are opposites generated out of a system that cannot be comprehended to capture seemingly conflicting aspects that we cannot reconcile rationally. Debates about dualism are done by people who don't seem to get that the dualism was used to illustrate this and was designed not to be reconciled. The way you describe a problem to someone is by breaking it into separate lumps to make it digestible. To then say 'but these lumps are incompatible and different' totally misunderstands why it was done in the first place - that they are different *is* the meaning not the problem. Congrats on thinking, but step back a bit  Mind and body describe the human condition. Mind makes no sense on its own, nor does body - they rely on their mutual exclusivity for their meaning. Like the good and evilness of an action.
Wait...what? First you're claiming that dualisms are an instrument to comprehend complicated stuff... I guess you're trying to say that discrete terms shouldn't be used to describe continuous things. So far I would agree, although I'd add: and vice versa. Then you're claiming that we cannot use continuois terms. That's of course wrong. Not the same level of wrong as your understanding of the correlation-causation problem, but definitely on the same scale (see what I did there? ). And finally, you compare the relationship of mind and body to the one between good and evil. Frankly, I don't even see what you're trying to imply here. That one concept doesn't exist without the other? Does a corpse have a mind?
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On February 04 2012 00:56 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. First, empathy does not equal feelings. It just means that you do not feel what other people feel (or more accurately , you can't imagine what other people would feel). But you still have feelings if something bad or good does occure to you. And infact, "psychopathy" is a categorized mentally disorder, with one of the main symptoms is that you can't feel empathy, so i wonder how you come to the conclusion that noone is born with it, as psychopathy always correlates with structural brain differences. The thing that bugs me the most about persons like this is, that really the only thing that seems to stop people from killing other people is the fact that you suffer if you do it. It seems like rational arguments don't affect behaviour at all.
Rational arguments do affect behavior, but it depends on how rational the person in question is. A 12 year old girl who was dealing with abuse at the hands of her mother? Not surprising that she threw reason out of the window and killed that teenager. Most psychopaths/sociopaths don't kill people, either because they fear the consequences, or because they have no rational reason to kill someone anyway. If a person was in a position to gain from a kill and could be reasonably safe that they could do so without repercussions, their conscience would be the only thing holding them back, and psychopaths lack exactly that.
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its always about power.
for some people murder is the ultimate form of power you can wield over somebody.
its the same with several sexual situations. when you jerk off to or actually cum into an womans face, you also get high by the power.
i guess for people with a mental disorder, people that feel no empathy, its kinda like this, just many times over
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On February 04 2012 03:35 Kater wrote:
its always about power.
for some people murder is the ultimate form of power you can wield over somebody.
its the same with several sexual situations. when you jerk off to or actually cum into an womans face, you also get high by the power.
i guess for people with a mental disorder, people that feel no empathy, its kinda like this, just many times over
That's kind of sick, but I see your point. I too think that she wanted to feel she had the power to decide whether her victim would live or die, and it most likely made her feel exhilarated.
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On February 04 2012 03:40 Zvenn3n wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 03:35 Kater wrote:
its always about power.
for some people murder is the ultimate form of power you can wield over somebody.
its the same with several sexual situations. when you jerk off to or actually cum into an womans face, you also get high by the power.
i guess for people with a mental disorder, people that feel no empathy, its kinda like this, just many times over That's kind of sick, but I see your point. I too think that she wanted to feel she had the power to decide whether her victim would live or die, and it most likely made her feel exhilarated.
What she said about needing to "overcome her beauty, her serenity" implies that she was jealous of her and angry that she could be so carefree while she herself was abused and could not be the same.
I'm still trying to figure out how she stabbed all the way through the victim several times, though. It doesn't say what size knife was used, does it?
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No such thing as pure evil.
Come on. Is this worth discussing? She clearly has mental issues and requires a full psychiatric work-up. End of story. End of thread. Nothing exciting here.
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That could be some kind of stupid attention whoring. I mean it's that or she's incredibly stupid. Really ? Holding a diary with the details of the murder ?
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On February 04 2012 03:56 PinkLithe wrote:
No such thing as pure evil.
Come on. Is this worth discussing? She clearly has mental issues and requires a full psychiatric work-up. End of story. End of thread. Nothing exciting here.
Congratulations, you've perpetuated discussion by keeping the thread in the general column! ^_^
And whether or not what she's doing is "evil" is a matter of semantics really. No one's gonna say what she did was good, or that she's a good person...
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On February 04 2012 03:56 PinkLithe wrote:
No such thing as pure evil.
Come on. Is this worth discussing? She clearly has mental issues and requires a full psychiatric work-up. End of story. End of thread. Nothing exciting here.
How can you say there is nothing exciting here. This kind of thing is at the very core of psychology and philosophy and biology, and realizing that there is a capability of the human mind to rationalize and embrace this sort of thing is a facinating, while terrifying, subject. It also raises a lot of questions as to how much of this comes from genetics and how much from environment.
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No one is ever "born a killer." Just as no one is ever born a genius; personalities and characteristics are a complex interaction of both dispositions and environment. Neither one is completely responsible for the outcome. Sure, you could have the disposition to be a killer (lack of empathy, fear, etc.), but you need certain environmental factors to help push you over the edge. Just because you have certain traits does not automatically mean you are destined to be a sadist or a killer. In fact, the very same traits that psychologists find in serial killers (apathy, fearlessness, callousness, etc.) are also found in many other socialized groups; lawyers, firefighters, police officers and prominent businessmen have also tested in similar ranges as serial killers on these tests. But it is because they had adequate socialization and the proper environment that allowed them to find a way to channel these traits in a socially acceptable way.
Therefore, no one is ever predestined to become a killer. Some factors may be out of our control, but there is definitely more at play than a "killer gene."
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On February 04 2012 04:18 Byaa wrote:
No one is ever "born a killer." Just as no one is ever born a genius; personalities and characteristics are a complex interaction of both dispositions and environment. Neither one is completely responsible for the outcome. Sure, you could have the disposition to be a killer (lack of empathy, fear, etc.), but you need certain environmental factors to help push you over the edge. Just because you have certain traits does not automatically mean you are destined to be a sadist or a killer. In fact, the very same traits that psychologists find in serial killers (apathy, fearlessness, callousness, etc.) are also found in many other socialized groups; lawyers, firefighters, police officers and prominent businessmen have also tested in similar ranges as serial killers on these tests. But it is because they had adequate socialization and the proper environment that allowed them to find a way to channel these traits in a socially acceptable way.
Therefore, no one is ever predestined to become a killer. Some factors may be out of our control, but there is definitely more at play than a "killer gene."
If no one is ever born a genius what are prodigies?
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On February 04 2012 04:23 DreamChaser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 04:18 Byaa wrote:
No one is ever "born a killer." Just as no one is ever born a genius; personalities and characteristics are a complex interaction of both dispositions and environment. Neither one is completely responsible for the outcome. Sure, you could have the disposition to be a killer (lack of empathy, fear, etc.), but you need certain environmental factors to help push you over the edge. Just because you have certain traits does not automatically mean you are destined to be a sadist or a killer. In fact, the very same traits that psychologists find in serial killers (apathy, fearlessness, callousness, etc.) are also found in many other socialized groups; lawyers, firefighters, police officers and prominent businessmen have also tested in similar ranges as serial killers on these tests. But it is because they had adequate socialization and the proper environment that allowed them to find a way to channel these traits in a socially acceptable way.
Therefore, no one is ever predestined to become a killer. Some factors may be out of our control, but there is definitely more at play than a "killer gene." If no one is ever born a genius what are prodigies?
The ones with some natural talent and who also invested huge amounts of time into learning whatever they were prodigious at. People are born with genius intellects, but being a prodigy at something doesn't entirely come with intellect.
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On February 04 2012 04:23 DreamChaser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 04:18 Byaa wrote:
No one is ever "born a killer." Just as no one is ever born a genius; personalities and characteristics are a complex interaction of both dispositions and environment. Neither one is completely responsible for the outcome. Sure, you could have the disposition to be a killer (lack of empathy, fear, etc.), but you need certain environmental factors to help push you over the edge. Just because you have certain traits does not automatically mean you are destined to be a sadist or a killer. In fact, the very same traits that psychologists find in serial killers (apathy, fearlessness, callousness, etc.) are also found in many other socialized groups; lawyers, firefighters, police officers and prominent businessmen have also tested in similar ranges as serial killers on these tests. But it is because they had adequate socialization and the proper environment that allowed them to find a way to channel these traits in a socially acceptable way.
Therefore, no one is ever predestined to become a killer. Some factors may be out of our control, but there is definitely more at play than a "killer gene." If no one is ever born a genius what are prodigies?
Prodigies are those who have abilities that, given certain circumstances, can express such abilities. People with Perfect Pitch have Perfect Pitch in the context of music. But if they are never exposed to music, they're ability is never displayed/exposed. I'm saying there are certain things that may be inherent to the individual (I will NEVER have the inherent intellectual abilities of Einstein, Bohr, Oppenheimer, etc.) but if they were never exposed to the nurturing environment they were exposed to, they're abilities would never have reached their full potential. Imagine if Einstein grew up away from any exposure to formal education; do you think he would ever have had some of the insightful and brilliant ideas he did?
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Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this.
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On February 04 2012 04:49 attwell wrote:
Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this.
She was 12 in 1992, so now she's 32. Anyway, her mother apparently put pepper in her vagina to punish her as a child, and I'm sure other terrible things along those lines were done to her.
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I hope she enjoys rotting in prison
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On February 04 2012 05:03 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 04:49 attwell wrote:
Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this. She was 12 in 1992, so now she's 32. Anyway, her mother apparently put pepper in her vagina to punish her as a child, and I'm sure other terrible things along those lines were done to her.
Can you give a source for this information. I havent read anything like that.
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On February 04 2012 05:03 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 04:49 attwell wrote:
Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this. She was 12 in 1992, so now she's 32. Anyway, her mother apparently put pepper in her vagina to punish her as a child, and I'm sure other terrible things along those lines were done to her.
doesn't really change anything about what I said though, just shift it back 20 years.
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On February 04 2012 05:17 gogatorsfoster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 05:03 Demonhunter04 wrote:On February 04 2012 04:49 attwell wrote:
Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this. She was 12 in 1992, so now she's 32. Anyway, her mother apparently put pepper in her vagina to punish her as a child, and I'm sure other terrible things along those lines were done to her. Can you give a source for this information. I havent read anything like that.
Someone wrote that on page 11. I assumed they took it from the actual article, and I only read what was copied and pasted into the OP.
EDIT: Here's the article: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-article-evil-unnatural-but-only-too-human-1275282.html
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On February 03 2012 04:40 Norris_is_GODLY wrote:
i have a younger sister around that age and to think someone that young could be so evil and cold just blows my mind. The way the girl describes the things she did is truely horrifying
It does say her parents broke up and that she was briefly put into foster care, and so my question is this- Do you think some people are just 'born killers' as she states, or is it the experiences one has growing up that could lead them to do such a thing? Or maybe even a combination of the two?
I think that problems, specifically abuse, lack of positive emotional contact, very early in your life can lead to you being raised with pretty much no empathy whatsoever.
I believe that in those cases, if you find something that raise intense emotion, it may act like a drug, and makes you obsessed about it.
And if that thing is death, I think you can turn into an evil killer. If that thing is sex, serial rapist. If it's adrenaline, dangerous crime. If it's material success, manipulation scamming seduction - normal psychopathic behavior, and so on ...
I strongly believe the following is true:
If someone doesn't find relational contact with others rewarding, most of life's deepest joys and sorrows are denied to him. Only material pleasures remain: food, sexual stimulation, games, drugs, thrills. Even achievement is diminished when others' feelings about it are not important.
Further, children without empathy do not wish to please their parents, peers or teachers-- so they are not motivated to behave well by praise or affection. Displeasing others is also not upsetting to them-- so most punishments fail to change their behavior, other than prompting attempts to avoid getting caught.
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EPT
