so i was just flicking throught my news feed on fb and came across this news article-
Sharon Carr, a girl obsessed with death and violence, secured her place in criminal history yesterday as Britain's youngest female murderer.
She had killed at the age of 12 - a savage attack in which a teenage hairdresser was mutilated with 29 stab wounds. The victim, Katie Rackliff, had been picked out at random as she walked home from a nightclub in June l992.
The trial at Winchester Crown Court was told that in the years that followed, Carr seemed to be exultant over the killing, and yet haunted by it. She was endlessly writing about the murder and drawing pictures of a knife.
Samples of her notes were graphic. In one she said: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good." In another: " I was born to be a murderer. Killing for me is a mass turn-on and it just makes me so high I never want to come down. Every night I see the Devil in my dreams - sometimes even in my mirror, but I realise it was just me."
Four years after the murder, a diary entry stated: " I bring the knife into her chest. Her eyes are closing. She is pleading with me so I bring the knife to her again and again. I don't want to hurt her but I need to do violence to her ... I need to overcome her beauty, her serenity, her security. There I see her face when she died. I know she feels her life being slowly drawn from her and I hear her gasp. I guess she was trying to breathe.
"The air stops in the back of her throat. I know all her life her breathing has worked, but it does not now. And I am joyful".
Were these the fantasies of a deeply disturbed mind, as the defence claimed? Or, as the Crown held, the grim memories of an " evil and precocious" schoolgirl who gloried in what she had done? The jury had no doubt.
It was the writings, and subsequent verbal confessions that convicted Carr. There was no forensic evidence, but, as the prosecution pointed out, she had knowledge of the murder not available to the public. She graphically described one particular injury, details of which the police had deliberately withheld, and she also knew that a bracelet had been stolen from Katie Rackliff - knowledge that only the killer would have.
In June 1994, almost two years to the day after Katie's murder, Carr attacked a pupil called Ann-Marie Clifford with a knife, for no apparent reason, at Collingwood College Comprehensive in Camberley, Surrey.
While awaiting trial, she was sent to an assessment centre where she tried to strangle two members of staff. Two counts of actual bodily harm were taken into account when she was convicted of wounding Ann-Marie, and sentenced to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure.
At Bulwood Hall young offenders' institution, staff alerted police after Carr began talking about the killing of Katie Rackliff on the telephone to her friends and family and wrote about it in her diaries. She also began to give details of what she had done to a prison officer, on whom she had developed a crush, as well as talking about it to a probation officer.
The Rackliff killing had remained unsolved despite four years of intensive investigation by police. Some of the knife blows that Katie suffered in the attack had gone straight through her body and out the other side. Her sexual organs were mutilated, and her clothes pulled up, although there was no evidence of sexual assault.
Detectives seized Carr's writings and drawings, and questioned her for 27 hours. She gave three different accounts of how Katie had been killed, but in all of them the central theme was she had repeatedly stabbed her.
In two of the versions, Carr said she was with two boys in a car at the time of the attack, and they had engaged in sexual activity with Katie before dumping the body. She named the two boys. Police interviewed them but they provided alibis for each other, and were eliminated from the inquiry. However, the prosecution could not satisfactorily explain how Katie, who weighed 8st 8lbs, was dragged across a pavement and around a corner by a 12-year-old girl.
Carr continued with her writing even after being interviewed by the police. In April l996, the month before she was charged, she wrote: " I am not like one of those pretty girls who breaks down due to a guilty conscience. Through six and a half years of causing people grief, I still have not found one." On 7 June, her diary read: " Respect to Katie Rackliff. Four years today."
Sadistic violence seemed to be part of her life. Police discovered that she had decapitated a neighbour's dog with a spade, and there was also a "suggestion" from a friend that she had fried live hamsters.
Detective Sergeant Paul Clements, who interviewed Carr extensively, recalled: "It was almost as if she was in another world. What sticks in my mind about talking to her was the coldness. Most people that you interview show some feeling as to why they have done what they have done. But with her there was a complete absence of emotion and reason."
Carr was born in Belize in l981 and was brought up by her mother and stepfather - a soldier. After moving to England the family settled in Camberley, Surrey. Her parents split up and she was briefly fostered, but after a month she returned to the home of her mother. At school, her teachers initially described her as polite and helpful, but her behaviour deteriorated and she became disruptive and attention-seeking.
Criminal psychologist Gordon Tressler said: "This is a difficult case to understand. One can find precedents of young children killing other young children, but in this case it was a child killing someone who was almost an adult.
"This is an extremely dangerous person because she is clearly prepared to kill without an adequate motive. That makes her conduct very unpredictable and very dangerous. She is a great danger to the public."
This is honestly one of the most fucked up things i have ever read....
i have a younger sister around that age and to think someone that young could be so evil and cold just blows my mind. The way the girl describes the things she did is truely horrifying
It does say her parents broke up and that she was briefly put into foster care, and so my question is this- Do you think some people are just 'born killers' as she states, or is it the experiences one has growing up that could lead them to do such a thing? Or maybe even a combination of the two?
so i was just flicking throught my news feed on fb and came across this news article-
Sharon Carr, a girl obsessed with death and violence, secured her place in criminal history yesterday as Britain's youngest female murderer.
She had killed at the age of 12 - a savage attack in which a teenage hairdresser was mutilated with 29 stab wounds. The victim, Katie Rackliff, had been picked out at random as she walked home from a nightclub in June l992.
The trial at Winchester Crown Court was told that in the years that followed, Carr seemed to be exultant over the killing, and yet haunted by it. She was endlessly writing about the murder and drawing pictures of a knife.
Samples of her notes were graphic. In one she said: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good." In another: " I was born to be a murderer. Killing for me is a mass turn-on and it just makes me so high I never want to come down. Every night I see the Devil in my dreams - sometimes even in my mirror, but I realise it was just me."
Four years after the murder, a diary entry stated: " I bring the knife into her chest. Her eyes are closing. She is pleading with me so I bring the knife to her again and again. I don't want to hurt her but I need to do violence to her ... I need to overcome her beauty, her serenity, her security. There I see her face when she died. I know she feels her life being slowly drawn from her and I hear her gasp. I guess she was trying to breathe.
"The air stops in the back of her throat. I know all her life her breathing has worked, but it does not now. And I am joyful".
Were these the fantasies of a deeply disturbed mind, as the defence claimed? Or, as the Crown held, the grim memories of an " evil and precocious" schoolgirl who gloried in what she had done? The jury had no doubt.
It was the writings, and subsequent verbal confessions that convicted Carr. There was no forensic evidence, but, as the prosecution pointed out, she had knowledge of the murder not available to the public. She graphically described one particular injury, details of which the police had deliberately withheld, and she also knew that a bracelet had been stolen from Katie Rackliff - knowledge that only the killer would have.
In June 1994, almost two years to the day after Katie's murder, Carr attacked a pupil called Ann-Marie Clifford with a knife, for no apparent reason, at Collingwood College Comprehensive in Camberley, Surrey.
While awaiting trial, she was sent to an assessment centre where she tried to strangle two members of staff. Two counts of actual bodily harm were taken into account when she was convicted of wounding Ann-Marie, and sentenced to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure.
At Bulwood Hall young offenders' institution, staff alerted police after Carr began talking about the killing of Katie Rackliff on the telephone to her friends and family and wrote about it in her diaries. She also began to give details of what she had done to a prison officer, on whom she had developed a crush, as well as talking about it to a probation officer.
The Rackliff killing had remained unsolved despite four years of intensive investigation by police. Some of the knife blows that Katie suffered in the attack had gone straight through her body and out the other side. Her sexual organs were mutilated, and her clothes pulled up, although there was no evidence of sexual assault.
Detectives seized Carr's writings and drawings, and questioned her for 27 hours. She gave three different accounts of how Katie had been killed, but in all of them the central theme was she had repeatedly stabbed her.
In two of the versions, Carr said she was with two boys in a car at the time of the attack, and they had engaged in sexual activity with Katie before dumping the body. She named the two boys. Police interviewed them but they provided alibis for each other, and were eliminated from the inquiry. However, the prosecution could not satisfactorily explain how Katie, who weighed 8st 8lbs, was dragged across a pavement and around a corner by a 12-year-old girl.
Carr continued with her writing even after being interviewed by the police. In April l996, the month before she was charged, she wrote: " I am not like one of those pretty girls who breaks down due to a guilty conscience. Through six and a half years of causing people grief, I still have not found one." On 7 June, her diary read: " Respect to Katie Rackliff. Four years today."
Sadistic violence seemed to be part of her life. Police discovered that she had decapitated a neighbour's dog with a spade, and there was also a "suggestion" from a friend that she had fried live hamsters.
Detective Sergeant Paul Clements, who interviewed Carr extensively, recalled: "It was almost as if she was in another world. What sticks in my mind about talking to her was the coldness. Most people that you interview show some feeling as to why they have done what they have done. But with her there was a complete absence of emotion and reason."
Carr was born in Belize in l981 and was brought up by her mother and stepfather - a soldier. After moving to England the family settled in Camberley, Surrey. Her parents split up and she was briefly fostered, but after a month she returned to the home of her mother. At school, her teachers initially described her as polite and helpful, but her behaviour deteriorated and she became disruptive and attention-seeking.
Criminal psychologist Gordon Tressler said: "This is a difficult case to understand. One can find precedents of young children killing other young children, but in this case it was a child killing someone who was almost an adult.
"This is an extremely dangerous person because she is clearly prepared to kill without an adequate motive. That makes her conduct very unpredictable and very dangerous. She is a great danger to the public."
This is honestly one of the most fucked up things i have ever read....
i have a younger sister around that age and to think someone that young could be so evil and cold just blows my mind. The way the girl describes the things she did is truely horrifying
It does say her parents broke up and that she was briefly put into foster care, and so my question is this- Do you think some people are just 'born killers' as she states, or is it the experiences one has growing up that could lead them to do such a thing? Or maybe even a combination of the two?
I do have a younger sister at that age, too. I for one think that it is indeed possible to be born as a killer. You only get satisfaction through causing pain and such. But I also believe that the divorce of her parents may have acted as a trigger to let her live out what she wanted to do. If they didn't break up, her daughter may have started killing people at the age of like 25 anyway.
Pretty old article..but messed up nonetheless. "At school, her teachers initially described her as polite and helpful, but her behaviour deteriorated and she became disruptive and attention-seeking."
That word seems key here in my opinion. Probably something psychologically related. I mean, you can have fucked up thoughts at that age, but to take action...
I honestly don't believe you're "born" a killer. That seems like the kind of stuff you hear in movies..like Kill Bill. The environment you grow up in and the events you experience at a young age tends to have a great impact on later life. Edit: I mean you COULD be born with a mental illness, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. The descriptions of her early on (polite and helpful???) suggests she developed a mental disorder as she got older (most likely from the parents splitting and the foster home thing).
ah such a hard question. but like all things I believe there are multiple explanations for such behavior. yes, no doubt that things could have been different if she grew up in a loving and stable environment. Heck, such a situation might have curbed an innate desire to kill.
on the other hand we have children who grow up in shit holes and do not EVER develop such murderous thoughts. This makes me believe this child could have been born with such tendencies and that her surroundings simply added to her evil intent. my 2 cents.
On February 03 2012 04:54 Zinnwaldite wrote: these things are so interesting,, would be great to have a chat with her..
i kinda wanna fuck her for some reason..
dude fuck off, that is fucking inappropriate in all intents and purposes.
Traumatic events in someone's life can change the way a person thinks. Some people take their parent's divorce different then others. Not to say that I think that was the main reason, she may have had some sort of mental disorder that was 'forcing' her to do these things. That being said, I think that this story could be made into an awesome horror movie!
On February 03 2012 04:54 Zinnwaldite wrote: i kinda wanna fuck her for some reason..
Not going to lie, that 'evil' side of women is pretty attractive.
It's interesting how her teachers at school described her as 'polite and helpful' before her behavior started to deteriorate. Kind of makes me think there was an event, or series of events that lead to this. Surely the mum could have spotted this behavior and told someone? Or do you think the girl put on an act in front of her to hide it?
I don't think you're born a killer. That's a bit absurd. I truly believe that her environment impacted her killings. Her teachers even said that at one point in her life, she was helpful. I don't know what would do me personally in, but she had a family, then was subjugated to foster care, and then brought back into her family again. I can only empathize what that would feel like, but I know if that happened to me, I'd be very bitter about it.
On February 03 2012 04:50 Integra wrote: There are people with mental disorders that feels joy in seeing other people suffer, I guess that is what she has.
It's not a mental disorder. It's just a different way of enjoying life. Why are you so judgmental? Nothing wrong with a little sadism. MURDERING someone for pleasure is a completely different thing.
Eh, doesn't seem very weird to me if you're talking about murderers. They all have these kinds of thoughts, and although it's pretty freaky it's also quite interesting.
Yeah i think its possible to be a born killer in a way, like some people are born without empathy and don't really feel any remorse for their actions. Look at the norwegian guy for example he was born and raised fairly normal and seem normal in almost every way. But killing hundreds seemed just perfectly fine for him. Not to say that those people will all be killers but they do have what it takes.
The Bible says that all humans are born into sin, separated from God, and thus capable of these atrocities. All of us. However, due to the rare nature of this story, it is certainly intriguing.
I am reminded of Mark 5:1-20, when Jesus casts demons out of a man.
However, the prosecution could not satisfactorily explain how Katie, who weighed 8st 8lbs, was dragged across a pavement and around a corner by a 12-year-old girl.
3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him.
Sadistic violence seemed to be part of her life.
5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.
While awaiting trial, she was sent to an assessment centre where she tried to strangle two members of staff.
Matthew 8:28 They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
Obviously there are differences, but the similarities are eerie.
How disgusting. She definitely needs to be permanently removed from society, and it is similarly important that her prison guards be kept safe from her.
On February 03 2012 04:54 Zinnwaldite wrote: these things are so interesting,, would be great to have a chat with her..
i kinda wanna fuck her for some reason..
User was temp banned for this post.
dude she's like 12.
If I'm reading the story right, she was 12 in June 1992 when she killed that hairdresser. Would obviously put her at 32 now, and if she's still thinking like that she definitely has psychological issues that she will likely never overcome.
Don't really see the parallels between this and the verses the guy ^ up there quoted, but that's probably because I'm not looking for parallels to the bible.
the human mind knows nothing of society, people, or influences when born, they are either born deformed in their minds and then influenced in such a way that they become violent (not possible in this situation, as that generally revolves around a learning disorder and a lack of peers, this girl seemingly had a fair number of friends) and the rest is just learned from experience, something taught this girl that taking away what someone else had was pleasurable, and she was influenced in a way where it became taking away someone's very life, in the diary entries you can tell its a very simple, very carnal desire. maybe her father told her war stories, and he enjoyed killing in them? or perhaps as she came into puberty it pushed her desire of taking things from people to the extreme, who knows? either way its a person that is infinitely dangerous, so cold she's almost warm in how she goes about life, absolutely care-free of the value of life.
while some factors might exacerbate the situation.. people are born predisposed to do what they do to some extent its in your genes (especially things like this where its obviously some sort of disconnect from the world)
It could have been a physical change as well within her brain not purely a change do to her environment. There are many cases of extreme changes in behaviour because of tumors growths blockages and suchwithin the brain. She should really be tested for these to see if this is the reason.
On February 03 2012 04:54 Zinnwaldite wrote: these things are so interesting,, would be great to have a chat with her..
i kinda wanna fuck her for some reason..
As if I wasn't already shocked by the article.. There really are some fucking odd people in this world of ours.
Nobody is perfect lol. I'm sure we all have something 'weird' about us.
On February 03 2012 04:54 Kamais Ookin wrote: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good."
Megadeth influenced her I see.
Yes we all have our own fancies that may seem off or odd to other people. But there comes a time when these fancies go too far. Take Megadeth's music and the message they portray in that song (regardless of their overall image or message or whatever. Take the fuckin lyrics) that is a really fucked up fancy, and IT IS NOT OK to glorify or promote it like that.
Nobody is perfect, but that doesn't mean it's OK to put out a message whose direct and literal application to real life is brutal murder. Humanity, I am dissapoint.
I can't help but be a bit impressed here. This bitch managed to do things no kid should be able to manage. Thank god she's gonna spend the rest of her life in prison before she gets older and decides to blow up a nuclear reactor. I swear, that girl is a killing prodigy.
"This is an extremely dangerous person because she is clearly prepared to kill without an adequate motive. That makes her conduct very unpredictable and very dangerous. She is a great danger to the public."
Is there ever...a good motive for killing someone?
Honestly, this is seriously a screwy case and well. Go justice o.o;
On February 03 2012 05:14 Dbla08 wrote: the human mind knows nothing of society, people, or influences when born, they are either born deformed in their minds and then influenced in such a way that they become violent (not possible in this situation, as that generally revolves around a learning disorder and a lack of peers, this girl seemingly had a fair number of friends) and the rest is just learned from experience, something taught this girl that taking away what someone else had was pleasurable, and she was influenced in a way where it became taking away someone's very life, in the diary entries you can tell its a very simple, very carnal desire. maybe her father told her war stories, and he enjoyed killing in them? or perhaps as she came into puberty it pushed her desire of taking things from people to the extreme, who knows? either way its a person that is infinitely dangerous, so cold she's almost warm in how she goes about life, absolutely care-free of the value of life.
So according to you, if you have a couple of kids who are raised in the exact same "way", they will all be identical? This is false. Animals have instincts that are triggered by certain cues. People have different thresholds and triggers and are predisposed to different traits.
On February 03 2012 05:07 danl9rm wrote: The Bible says that all humans are born into sin, separated from God, and thus capable of these atrocities. All of us. However, due to the rare nature of this story, it is certainly intriguing.
I am reminded of Mark 5:1-20, when Jesus casts demons out of a man.
However, the prosecution could not satisfactorily explain how Katie, who weighed 8st 8lbs, was dragged across a pavement and around a corner by a 12-year-old girl.
3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him.
While awaiting trial, she was sent to an assessment centre where she tried to strangle two members of staff.
Matthew 8:28 They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
Obviously there are differences, but the similarities are eerie.
I really don't get what's eerie about that.
The first quote is about a guy breaking metal shakles by supernatural strength, the RL one is about a girl dragging someone.
Second one isn't similar at all as the bible quote is about self mutilation while the RL one is about sadistic violence against animals and other people.
Last one is also not really similar more than she's crazy and your bible quote says that "they" are violent.
On February 03 2012 05:18 sc14s wrote: while some factors might exacerbate the situation.. people are born predisposed to do what they do to some extent its in your genes (especially things like this where its obviously some sort of disconnect from the world)
Well, at the moment there is no definite answer to the question OP asked, since the human mind/brain is the biggest mystery for us there is actually. It's hard to explain what we do and why we do it. But mental disorders are things you develope, and are not born with. Sure there are genetic abilities, but i am fairly convinced nobody is born as a natural killer. It's also the family situation, the experiences and associations at a very young age that defines us, like year 1-8.
You should guess it is a combination of genes and psychosocial issues.
Most serial killers you hear of have practiced their skills on animals when they were childs afaik. Furthermore the family situation seems not that perfect. Who knows what she's been through...
On February 03 2012 05:35 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I can't help but be a bit impressed here. This bitch managed to do things no kid should be able to manage. Thank god she's gonna spend the rest of her life in prison before she gets older and decides to blow up a nuclear reactor. I swear, that girl is a killing prodigy.
It must be simple being you, you have an easy life. I recall when I was just 5 years of age (My IQ was probably similar to yours, back then) I had some much joy in being ignorant. Enjoy your stupidity while it lasts, How this girl managed to perform her depraved acts, is not interesting, much more, how you manage to dress yourself every morning, that, is interesting.
"This is an extremely dangerous person because she is clearly prepared to kill without an adequate motive. That makes her conduct very unpredictable and very dangerous. She is a great danger to the public."
Is there ever...a good motive for killing someone?
Honestly, this is seriously a screwy case and well. Go justice o.o;
I think what was meant is that if someone has a motive to kill then either once they have killed they are unlikely to again or if their motive requires them to kill more people it should be somewhat predictable.
In the case of this girl no motive means unpredictability, not necessarily that killing has "good" motives to kill.
On February 03 2012 05:07 danl9rm wrote: The Bible says that all humans are born into sin, separated from God, and thus capable of these atrocities. All of us. However, due to the rare nature of this story, it is certainly intriguing.
5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.
* some more bible stuff *
Obviously there are differences, but the similarities are eerie.
You can find similarities between almost anything if you look and try hard enough. And sadism isn't hurting yourself, it's hurting others and find pleasure in it. Not entirely sure why you bring up the bible here anyway -- you don't seem to make a point with it other than 'it looks similar you guys!'. But I respect your memory for mapping the events in this story to some 'similar' events in the bible
It's horrible people like this girl exist, I can never understand how anyone can be like this -- pure evil.
"This is an extremely dangerous person because she is clearly prepared to kill without an adequate motive. That makes her conduct very unpredictable and very dangerous. She is a great danger to the public."
Is there ever...a good motive for killing someone?
Honestly, this is seriously a screwy case and well. Go justice o.o;
By "adequate motive", I don't think they were making an ethical argument but instead were just making a psychological diagnosis. She appeared to literally have no motive other than pleasure from killing. Seems fair to say a person like that is extremely dangerous.
"This is an extremely dangerous person because she is clearly prepared to kill without an adequate motive. That makes her conduct very unpredictable and very dangerous. She is a great danger to the public."
Is there ever...a good motive for killing someone?
Honestly, this is seriously a screwy case and well. Go justice o.o;
I think what was meant is that if someone has a motive to kill then either once they have killed they are unlikely to again or if their motive requires them to kill more people it should be somewhat predictable.
In the case of this girl no motive means unpredictability, not necessarily that killing has "good" motives to kill.
Yeah, all it means is that usually a killing has some motive. Revenge, money etc. Obviously these aren't "good" motives. But she simply kills because she enjoys it.
On February 03 2012 05:14 Dbla08 wrote: the human mind knows nothing of society, people, or influences when born, they are either born deformed in their minds and then influenced in such a way that they become violent (not possible in this situation, as that generally revolves around a learning disorder and a lack of peers, this girl seemingly had a fair number of friends) and the rest is just learned from experience, something taught this girl that taking away what someone else had was pleasurable, and she was influenced in a way where it became taking away someone's very life, in the diary entries you can tell its a very simple, very carnal desire. maybe her father told her war stories, and he enjoyed killing in them? or perhaps as she came into puberty it pushed her desire of taking things from people to the extreme, who knows? either way its a person that is infinitely dangerous, so cold she's almost warm in how she goes about life, absolutely care-free of the value of life.
I think you are absolutely right.
On February 03 2012 05:07 llKenZyll wrote: So what do we do? Kill her? Ironic.
it's clearly that she suffers from a mental illness or even multiple issues. If you want to know more about people who actually kill to kill without having feelings go search for the interview on Richard Kuklinski. you can find it here Iceman tapes - inside the mind
who else got the urge and desire to sit with this person and hear them speak, just to to enjoy the experience. Like what would they say, how would they sound, what are they thinking, not why did they do it, murder is murder, reasons are only defined by what a person already knows, so we can find the answer in the end will be the same. but here is a 12 year old girl and you just want to figure out how is it possible and you have to ask this person so many questions to get that answer for yourself. haha rambling. the story fascinates and scares me simultaneously.
On February 03 2012 05:52 wishbones wrote: who else got the urge and desire to sit with this person and hear them speak, just to to enjoy the experience. Like what would they say, how would they sound, what are they thinking, not why did they do it, murder is murder, reasons are only defined by what a person already knows, so we can find the answer in the end will be the same. but here is a 12 year old girl and you just want to figure out how is it possible and you have to ask this person so many questions to get that answer for yourself. haha rambling. the story fascinates and scares me simultaneously.
On February 03 2012 05:52 wishbones wrote: who else got the urge and desire to sit with this person and hear them speak, just to to enjoy the experience. Like what would they say, how would they sound, what are they thinking, not why did they do it, murder is murder, reasons are only defined by what a person already knows, so we can find the answer in the end will be the same. but here is a 12 year old girl and you just want to figure out how is it possible and you have to ask this person so many questions to get that answer for yourself. haha rambling. the story fascinates and scares me simultaneously.
She's crazy. There's nothing fascinating here. Crazy people are incoherent, unreasonble and boring. There's no "deeper" answer or meaning to her actions, she's just a crazy person who does crazy things.
sentance her to death, if shes this fucked up at that age, there is no chance of her becomeing anything good in the future, and even if there was, she doesnt deserve it
On February 03 2012 05:52 wishbones wrote: who else got the urge and desire to sit with this person and hear them speak, just to to enjoy the experience. Like what would they say, how would they sound, what are they thinking, not why did they do it, murder is murder, reasons are only defined by what a person already knows, so we can find the answer in the end will be the same. but here is a 12 year old girl and you just want to figure out how is it possible and you have to ask this person so many questions to get that answer for yourself. haha rambling. the story fascinates and scares me simultaneously.
On February 03 2012 05:56 Kojak21 wrote: sentance her to death, if shes this fucked up at that age, there is no chance of her becomeing anything good in the future, and even if there was, she doesnt deserve it
Or locked up forever. Releasing a person like that is insanity in itself.
wow, she has some serious problems. I noticed that the teachers mentioned that she was polite and helpful and then she started becoming disruptive and attention-seeking. I wonder what caused the change...
People who develop mental disorders of any type are always a result of a combination of their genetic make up and resulting brain physiology and their up bringing. Its entirely possible with the right environment this girl could have become a normal person but due to the environment she was brought up in didn't.
Depending upon the person it might not have even required trauma, such as physical abuse, to trigger the development of a mental disorder but potentially a continuous sort of mental and emotional pressure in conjunction with the right, or i guess wrong, brain make up. Reading about her up bringing though is like the stereotypical environment for the development of mental disorders. Her parents were divorced, i assume, her stepfather was a soldier and they moved at a young age and she was put into foster care for a bit, she killed small animals, and one day at school her whole behavior changed into attention seeking oriented. These together indicate something bad was going on around her for a while ( unstable home life) and then there was some event or series of events that most likely pushed her over the edge and unfortunately she has become a sociopath now. So from an ideal perspective no, no one is born a killer but some are born into the world into a situation in which it is almost inevitable for them to become one.
On February 03 2012 05:35 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I can't help but be a bit impressed here. This bitch managed to do things no kid should be able to manage. Thank god she's gonna spend the rest of her life in prison before she gets older and decides to blow up a nuclear reactor. I swear, that girl is a killing prodigy.
It must be simple being you, you have an easy life. I recall when I was just 5 years of age (My IQ was probably similar to yours, back then) I had some much joy in being ignorant. Enjoy your stupidity while it lasts, How this girl managed to perform her depraved acts, is not interesting, much more, how you manage to dress yourself every morning, that, is interesting.
How is this not impressive? Whenever a person does something that almost no one else has done, it is quite impressive. I sincerely hope you are just trolling. That is the only explanation I can come to as to why you would put so much effort into trying to appear intelligent in a post, and insulting another persons intelligence, while that persons managed to actually make a post with no spelling or miscapitalization errors, much unlike your own.
Reading the notes in her diary (posted in the article) I'm also surprised she seemed quite intelligent, at least she must have read a lot of literature to use some of the language she did at such a young age.
And then later on for the detective to say she seemed to be '[absent] of emotion and reason.", really weird and interesting I guess
If that girl is truly a "born killer" and has proven herself a cold evil human being then she should be locked away dungeon style to rot underground with no windows only to be fed once a day with no human contact.
I guess there could be myriad other reasons for developing this behavior relating to her environment but there have been plenty of cases like this before and this fits the bill for an adolescent issue known as Conduct Disorder, an Antiscocial Personality Disorder precursor. Sadistic tendencies for people who have this disorder are common and killing someone doesn't carry the same weight as it would for a mentally healthy human. Given the fact that she was in/reaching a period of physical and psychological development it would make sense that an issue could arise at her age. While it's mostly a male disorder (hence why most psycho/sociopaths are men) and the full blown ASPD couldn't be identified as such by the DSM-IV until age 18, it does show up on occasion in females. Clearly her empathy and differentiation between right and wrong were skewed. Low brain activity in the frontal lobe is another indicator of such a disorder. Sadly, one type of mental illness is often accompanied by one or more other disorders. As such, comorbidity with a form of Schizophrenia would make sense given her allusion to Satanic influence.
It's really sad to see people who have these types of problems. I despise the acts they commit but I pity anyone who lives with this. They're missing out on one of the most important parts of being human, the ability to form healthy relationships. Hopefully advances in human cognition and pathological neuroscience can helps people with these diseases in the future.
Anyways, this is disturbing, but I don't think you can be "born" a killer. Your personality can be indirectly influenced by your genes, BUT ultimately the way your brain develops depends largely on your environment.
Oh, very interesting article. This certainly does launch many questions of human morality and our intentions. Are we truly all good at the core of it all? Does one require "reasoning" to have a mindset of an emotionally absent psychopath (whether if that reason was psychological or purely genetic) ? I mean, if this was a child who grew up under a more stable family, I'd scratch my head a little bit more but since she's been through maternal detachment (even though it was brief) at an early stage in her life, I would kind of like blame it on that. Maybe she's a truly sensitive being and positioned herself in a place in her mind where she is the darkest power ("the devil") and detached herself from all mother-like emotions (love, care, sympathy, etc.) as a means of defense. Nevertheless, we've all wandered into dark thoughts at an young age before, but most of us usually do not come with a pair of ballsacks that actually acts upon reason-less murders. I don't think killers are just "born." I do, however, believe we all have different ways of reasoning with our consciousness and few may reason in ways the majority cannot even begin to imagine.
On February 03 2012 06:09 BlindSC2 wrote: Reading the notes in her diary (posted in the article) I'm also surprised she seemed quite intelligent, at least she must have read a lot of literature to use some of the language she did at such a young age.
And then later on for the detective to say she seemed to be '[absent] of emotion and reason.", really weird and interesting I guess
Its not that weird "absent of emotion or reason". Psychopath.
On February 03 2012 06:09 BlindSC2 wrote: Reading the notes in her diary (posted in the article) I'm also surprised she seemed quite intelligent, at least she must have read a lot of literature to use some of the language she did at such a young age.
And then later on for the detective to say she seemed to be '[absent] of emotion and reason.", really weird and interesting I guess
Its not that weird "absent of emotion or reason". Psychopath.
Yep.
By the way, if anyone in this thread hasn't read "Columbine" then they should. Really hardcore examination of a teenage psycho.
i'd be very surprised if there was no brain damage or underdevelopment of the brain in this girl.
On February 03 2012 06:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: this reminds me of those yanderes from anime haha
Anyways, this is disturbing, but I don't think you can be "born" a killer. Your personality can be indirectly influenced by your genes, BUT ultimately the way your brain develops depends largely on your environment.
That's not completely true. It has been shown that serial killers and most especially psychopaths often have an underdeveloped brain such that they experience emotions at a different level or don't even experience emotions such as empathy at all. If someone grows up with a defunct brain such that they can't experience any restraining emotions such as empathy, sadness, or they can't grasp the notion that their actions have consequences then they will have a predisposition to become a killer.
On February 03 2012 06:11 NotSorry wrote: I'm still with the nurture over nature group, something was clearly fucked up behind the scenes with the parents.
Also the whole 12 is still a child thing, not long ago that was considered a women grown and flowered considered ready to marry and reproduce.
Not that long ago? isnt stuff like that going on in Mormonism today?
On February 03 2012 06:11 NotSorry wrote: I'm still with the nurture over nature group, something was clearly fucked up behind the scenes with the parents.
Also the whole 12 is still a child thing, not long ago that was considered a women grown and flowered considered ready to marry and reproduce.
Not that long ago? isnt stuff like that going on in Mormonism today?
I meant widely accept as normal, yes there is still religions and countries that it's the normal or younger, but we generally don't count those among the "civilized" world
On February 03 2012 05:52 wishbones wrote: who else got the urge and desire to sit with this person and hear them speak, just to to enjoy the experience. Like what would they say, how would they sound, what are they thinking, not why did they do it, murder is murder, reasons are only defined by what a person already knows, so we can find the answer in the end will be the same. but here is a 12 year old girl and you just want to figure out how is it possible and you have to ask this person so many questions to get that answer for yourself. haha rambling. the story fascinates and scares me simultaneously.
I feel exactly the same way as you do. Very interesting. I don't believe she was born to kill. Something in her early days triggered this kind of behaviour. It's like in theory of chaos, the butterfly effect. That's how i think about it.
She became attention seeking, and she said in her writing she murdered that lady to overcome her "beauty". This girl sounds like she just has jealousy and social attention issues due to how she was brought up. I just don't think the whole story of how she was raised is being told.
On February 03 2012 05:35 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I can't help but be a bit impressed here. This bitch managed to do things no kid should be able to manage. Thank god she's gonna spend the rest of her life in prison before she gets older and decides to blow up a nuclear reactor. I swear, that girl is a killing prodigy.
It must be simple being you, you have an easy life. I recall when I was just 5 years of age (My IQ was probably similar to yours, back then) I had some much joy in being ignorant. Enjoy your stupidity while it lasts, How this girl managed to perform her depraved acts, is not interesting, much more, how you manage to dress yourself every morning, that, is interesting.
How is this not impressive? Whenever a person does something that almost no one else has done, it is quite impressive. I sincerely hope you are just trolling. That is the only explanation I can come to as to why you would put so much effort into trying to appear intelligent in a post, and insulting another persons intelligence, while that persons managed to actually make a post with no spelling or miscapitalization errors, much unlike your own.
If what you said wasn't a massive contradiction, I might take the same effort with this post
As with most psychological disorders, there is probably some sort of chemical imbalance or other biological imperfection that she was born with, and environmental factors that "turned it on". Some people are more predisposed than others. A lot of people go through way worse than her and turn out fine, so it's obviously a part biological.
These questions of whether the person is deeply disturbed or the person is evil confuse me. What does it mean to actually be evil as opposed to deeply disturbed? If you're killing someone because you're crazy as opposed to killing someone because you're evil, what is the difference? What separates the two? I don't see why being "evil" is not considered being crazy. I guess I just can't comprehend what it would mean to be a sane and rational person who kills simply because he/she is evil. I don't understand what "evil" is in this context? Just an imaginary idea that we arbitrarily came up with that represents nothing?
On February 03 2012 06:27 IronManSC wrote: It is easy to think that she would have a mental disorder, but to me personally this looks like a demonic possession.
Obviously we need court-appointed exorcists to take care of this
On February 03 2012 05:52 wishbones wrote: who else got the urge and desire to sit with this person and hear them speak, just to to enjoy the experience. Like what would they say, how would they sound, what are they thinking, not why did they do it, murder is murder, reasons are only defined by what a person already knows, so we can find the answer in the end will be the same. but here is a 12 year old girl and you just want to figure out how is it possible and you have to ask this person so many questions to get that answer for yourself. haha rambling. the story fascinates and scares me simultaneously.
I feel exactly the same way as you do. Very interesting. I don't believe she was born to kill. Something in her early days triggered this kind of behaviour. It's like in theory of chaos, the butterfly effect. That's how i think about it.
You guys should watch the movie called "The Appropriate Adult" its a really cool story based in truth. Its about a completely normal English mother who has to sit in on the confessions of a serial killer and eventually even befriends him.
I wonder if she has a brain tumor in the frontal lobe, there have been cases of antisocial behavior cause of such. Else she'd be a pretty extreme case of "bad luck", since there are no reports about bad childhood experiences.
On February 03 2012 06:21 CecilSunkure wrote: She became attention seeking, and she said in her writing she murdered that lady to overcome her "beauty". This girl sounds like she just has jealousy and social attention issues due to how she was brought up. I just don't think the whole story of how she was raised is being told.
this is a lot like what i was thinking, though she could have meant the "inherent beauty of life" rather than just physical beauty...but then again i doubt a 12 year old would think in that manner...either that or she just had no good words to use to describe what she was overcoming
odd situation overall, and really if you have a penchant for murder just join a country's military who is in war
Put it this way: It's possible to be born with / develop conditions that make the act of killing more possible on a moral ground. For example psychopaths, while difficult to characterize uniquely, definitely share in common a lack in the ability to empathize with others. Because of this lack of empathy expressed by psychopaths, it's not very shocking that they can't rationalize, on moral grounds, why in the event of a murder, they feel no sincere remorse or guilt.
Whether or not this girl is a psychopath, or, has something similar going on in her brain, is totally a mystery to me -- just to be clear that I'm not claiming with certainty that she's definitely a psychopath. It's just one explanation for how one might be born with a condition that makes killing others more rational (internal logic of course, but you can see how finding reasons to kill people would be quite easy if you simply weren't born with the ability to empathize, or feel others' pain)
On February 03 2012 05:52 wishbones wrote: who else got the urge and desire to sit with this person and hear them speak, just to to enjoy the experience. Like what would they say, how would they sound, what are they thinking, not why did they do it, murder is murder, reasons are only defined by what a person already knows, so we can find the answer in the end will be the same. but here is a 12 year old girl and you just want to figure out how is it possible and you have to ask this person so many questions to get that answer for yourself. haha rambling. the story fascinates and scares me simultaneously.
I feel exactly the same way as you do. Very interesting. I don't believe she was born to kill. Something in her early days triggered this kind of behaviour. It's like in theory of chaos, the butterfly effect. That's how i think about it.
You guys should watch the movie called "The Appropriate Adult" its a really cool story based in truth. Its about a completely normal English mother who has to sit in on the confessions of a serial killer and eventually even befriends him.
I will check it out ty! :> .
On February 03 2012 06:36 Myles wrote: [OT: The girl clearly has some issues. Millions of kids around the world grow up with shitty upbringing and don't turn out like that.
It's called the butterfly effect "In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions; where a small change at one place in a nonlinear system can result in large differences to a later state." Read more about it if you find it interesting .
On February 03 2012 06:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: this reminds me of those yanderes from anime haha
Anyways, this is disturbing, but I don't think you can be "born" a killer. Your personality can be indirectly influenced by your genes, BUT ultimately the way your brain develops depends largely on your environment.
That's not completely true. It has been shown that serial killers and most especially psychopaths often have an underdeveloped brain such that they experience emotions at a different level or don't even experience emotions such as empathy at all. If someone grows up with a defunct brain such that they can't experience any restraining emotions such as empathy, sadness, or they can't grasp the notion that their actions have consequences then they will have a predisposition to become a killer.
Oh, good point then. I didn't think of extremes where the brain is considered to have a disorder or a "problem" or such =/
In that case, I don't think you can be born a killer, maybe more general (and im winging a description) like "born as a person who thinks selfishly and can't feel compassion for others due to the brain thinking illogically
There is a great BBC documentary on psychopaths, and how it is indeed genetic. Being a pyschopath does not, however, mean you are a psychopathic killer. I really can't remember the name of it, but basically there are lots of them and they tend to be very successful in business. I don't know if this girl could be classed as a psychopath, not my area.
On February 03 2012 06:27 IronManSC wrote: It is easy to think that she would have a mental disorder, but to me personally this looks like a demonic possession.
On February 03 2012 06:17 Ryuu314 wrote: psychopath all the way -.-;
i'd be very surprised if there was no brain damage or underdevelopment of the brain in this girl.
On February 03 2012 06:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: this reminds me of those yanderes from anime haha
Anyways, this is disturbing, but I don't think you can be "born" a killer. Your personality can be indirectly influenced by your genes, BUT ultimately the way your brain develops depends largely on your environment.
That's not completely true. It has been shown that serial killers and most especially psychopaths often have an underdeveloped brain such that they experience emotions at a different level or don't even experience emotions such as empathy at all. If someone grows up with a defunct brain such that they can't experience any restraining emotions such as empathy, sadness, or they can't grasp the notion that their actions have consequences then they will have a predisposition to become a killer.
Oh, good point then. I didn't think of extremes where the brain is considered to have a disorder or a "problem" or such =/
In that case, I don't think you can be born a killer, maybe more general (and im winging a description) like "born as a person who thinks selfishly and can't feel compassion for others due to the brain thinking illogically
Yep that's pretty much exactly it I think. Basically, it's silly to say someone can be born with the predisposition to commit a particular act, such as a murder (let's assume religious stuff is excluded from this statement). What one can say, though, is that one can be born with, or develop, a mental deficiency that affects complex/poorly understood emotional mechanisms at the brain such that the emotional checks (i.e. empathy) in place that normally prevent irrational actions such as cold-blooded murder simply aren't working properly. So one of these individuals might live a totally normal life on the outside, while another might be presented with a situation that happens to cause the individual to commit a murder due to the compromised emotional and mental stability elicited by the deficiency.
On February 03 2012 06:36 Myles wrote: [OT: The girl clearly has some issues. Millions of kids around the world grow up with shitty upbringing and don't turn out like that.
It's called the butterfly effect "In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions; where a small change at one place in a nonlinear system can result in large differences to a later state." Read more about it if you find it interesting .
I'm not sure why you are associating this with the butterfly effect. Let's say the bus is delayed 5 minutes, that might mean someone gets run over by the bus - however if you apply this to Sharon Carr's situation, I don't see how the fact that her mother gets home late from work one day or that the bathroom smells funny is gonna trigger something in her brain making her a ruthless killing machine. To trigger something like this I would like to think something HUGE has to happen in her life OR that she has some very distinct brain malfunctions.
I am very interested in seeing how you want to apply the butterfly effect to this case though.
On February 03 2012 06:57 Drowsy wrote: Would anyone really protest if we just decided to give her a choice between euthenization or being exiled to a deserted island?
One problem though: She might (though not likely) escape from the island, and cause havoc again.
OT, I think this is highly disturbing, things like these kind of makes me lose faith in humanity.
Those descriptions from her and her quotes sound like words of a older mind...correct me if am wrong. But it doesnt sound as it comes from a 12 year old mind...very disturbing.
She has to be a born psychopath. Nobody grows up and experiences something (at that young of an age) that could make all their empathy just disappear. Plus when you factor in that she is cruel to animals, is turned on by acts of violence, and displays heavily irrational behavior it just kinda gives it away.
On February 03 2012 04:53 Proof. wrote: Pretty old article..but messed up nonetheless. "At school, her teachers initially described her as polite and helpful, but her behaviour deteriorated and she became disruptive and attention-seeking."
That word seems key here in my opinion. Probably something psychologically related. I mean, you can have fucked up thoughts at that age, but to take action...
I honestly don't believe you're "born" a killer. That seems like the kind of stuff you hear in movies..like Kill Bill. The environment you grow up in and the events you experience at a young age tends to have a great impact on later life. Edit: I mean you COULD be born with a mental illness, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. The descriptions of her early on (polite and helpful???) suggests she developed a mental disorder as she got older (most likely from the parents splitting and the foster home thing).
I agree with the attention thing. Divorce children have often problems, though this is the first I heard about criminally-violent behavior.
My guess is she talked with other kids about the wrong things(kids can have cruel fantasies), seen the wrong movies or tried out the wrong things(like beheading the neighbor dog) or some combination of these. It´s frightening that this actually happened. I mean, I was a divorce kid too, but I only got into fist fights, which gave me enough trouble already.
On February 03 2012 06:59 LayZRR wrote: Those descriptions from her and her quotes sound like words of a older mind...correct me if am wrong. But it doesnt sound as it comes from a 12 year old mind...very disturbing.
Knowledge doesn't come from age, age merely presents the possibility to gain knowledge. Full scale IQ, doesn't necessarily peak at any specific age either. If the words we're produced from the mind of a 12 year old, they simply are the words of a 12 year old.
On February 03 2012 06:59 LayZRR wrote: Those descriptions from her and her quotes sound like words of a older mind...correct me if am wrong. But it doesnt sound as it comes from a 12 year old mind...very disturbing.
Many 12 year olds can probably express themselfs more profound than me and I'm 28. It's more the disturbing nature that's... eh disturbing.
you know, primates are very violent creatures and will often kill each other.
we are but a stone's throw away from them. it's not hard for me to see where this girl developed; a lack of empathy and conscious fostered by the influence of violence/death as an aesthetic.
if she had done this to get attention it would not have taken 4 years for them to figure out it was her who stabbed the hair dresser. this is a girl who, sadly, found fulfillment in murder and nothing in her head existed to stop her from doing it.
to give you an idea of how extreme she is, recall that Himmler (the nazi), who ordered millions to their deaths, could not stand the site of their murder. he was as close to evil as any other human being, was he not? you dont go from being a normal human being to bathing in blood by the age of 12. children who get pressed into killing or to see a lot of it have life-long psychological damage from it.
I wonder if she understands that her victims were afraid.
This is going to sound incredibly nerdy, but it's relevant. There was a Star Trek Voyager episode where a serial killer had his life saved by a medical procedure. One of the side effects, however, was that parts of his brain were repaired so he could fully comprehend what he had done to his victims. In essence, he now had a conscience.
On February 03 2012 07:16 aksfjh wrote: This is going to sound incredibly nerdy, but it's relevant. There was a Star Trek Voyager episode where a serial killer had his life saved by a medical procedure. One of the side effects, however, was that parts of his brain were repaired so he could fully comprehend what he had done to his victims. In essence, he now had a conscience.
Hm, that in itself might be quite the punishment depending on what awful things you've done. Also, feeling something like severe guilt for the first time must be a terrible experience.
On February 03 2012 07:25 sunprince wrote: Most people have the urge to kill people for petty reasons like jealousy now and then.
The only difference between this girl and others is that she lacked the inhibitions, empathy, and long-term planning to stop her from doing it.
I can confirm, that under no situations, would I ever consider the idea of killing someone, unless they killed me. Which wouldn't really provide me the opportunity, to kill them.
So, allow me to provide my equal opinion, to mirror yours. "Most incompetent people, have the urge to kill people".
Wow. I can believe that there exist people for whom hurting others gives them pleasure (I know many sadists and such, sexual and otherwise,) so it's not unbelievable for me that someone would simply feel that way to the extreme. Still, for it to be a 12 year old girl is utterly shocking.
I certainly hope she's locked up. If anyone belongs behind bars, it's someone who kills without exterior motive. Terrifying thought, having her out and about.
On February 03 2012 06:36 Myles wrote: [OT: The girl clearly has some issues. Millions of kids around the world grow up with shitty upbringing and don't turn out like that.
It's called the butterfly effect "In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions; where a small change at one place in a nonlinear system can result in large differences to a later state." Read more about it if you find it interesting .
I'm not sure why you are associating this with the butterfly effect. Let's say the bus is delayed 5 minutes, that might mean someone gets run over by the bus - however if you apply this to Sharon Carr's situation, I don't see how the fact that her mother gets home late from work one day or that the bathroom smells funny is gonna trigger something in her brain making her a ruthless killing machine. To trigger something like this I would like to think something HUGE has to happen in her life OR that she has some very distinct brain malfunctions.
I am very interested in seeing how you want to apply the butterfly effect to this case though.
Edit: Fail quote.
I am reading some other posts, and i agree with you here (and some others) maybe she really has some very distinct brain malfunctions, that would be one explanation. With butterfly effect though (correct me if i am wrong), a small thing can cause a huge change in the outcome. The cause for killing might not be the bathroom smell (LOL) but probably something else and that is a misery to me. But that exact same cause could be applied to some other person and he would not turn into a ruthless killer. Wouldn't that mean the butterfly effect? Like y triggered x-actions that are not applied to some other person (that explains why everyone is not a serial killer) and those x-es shape in a way that the result is a serial killer. Damn, i have to read more about chaos theroy, only started a short time ago.
In a theory if you would have the whole image in front of you. Like every atom, every molecule every participle in space you could predict what y triggers x and how those xes react to each other, this way you could prevent those actions in between and the outcome would be normal living person (if they don't have distinct brain malfunctions).
And sorry for my bad english jesus, i would really like to talk about this in my first language.
Police questioned them, but they provided alibis for each other.
WHAT! Your two suspects some how managed to alibi each other so you just let them go? Maybe they said we should make up an alibi for each other seeing as how we were just involved in a murder?
On February 03 2012 06:36 Myles wrote: [OT: The girl clearly has some issues. Millions of kids around the world grow up with shitty upbringing and don't turn out like that.
It's called the butterfly effect "In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions; where a small change at one place in a nonlinear system can result in large differences to a later state." Read more about it if you find it interesting .
I'm not sure why you are associating this with the butterfly effect. Let's say the bus is delayed 5 minutes, that might mean someone gets run over by the bus - however if you apply this to Sharon Carr's situation, I don't see how the fact that her mother gets home late from work one day or that the bathroom smells funny is gonna trigger something in her brain making her a ruthless killing machine. To trigger something like this I would like to think something HUGE has to happen in her life OR that she has some very distinct brain malfunctions.
I am very interested in seeing how you want to apply the butterfly effect to this case though.
Edit: Fail quote.
I am reading some other posts, and i agree with you here (and some others) maybe she really has some very distinct brain malfunctions, that would be one explanation. With butterfly effect though (correct me if i am wrong), a small thing can cause a huge change in the outcome. The cause for killing might not be the bathroom smell (LOL) but probably something else and that is a misery to me. But that exact same cause could be applied to some other person and he would not turn into a ruthless killer. Wouldn't that mean the butterfly effect? Like y triggered x-actions that are not applied to some other person (that explains why everyone is not a serial killer) and those x-es shape in a way that the result is a serial killer. Damn, i have to read more about chaos theroy, only started a short time ago.
I guess we actually do agree upon the matter afterall. Initially I thought you were trying to justify this with a series of small-scaled events that happened during the short period of time that the teachers described as her going from gentle and polite to being disruptive and attention-seeking. However, as soon as you include her (apparent) brain malfunctions in the equation. Then combined with a series of events you could argue that the butterfly effect applies to this case - and I think this was what you were actually doing, but I might've just misunderstood you.
On February 03 2012 06:36 Myles wrote: [OT: The girl clearly has some issues. Millions of kids around the world grow up with shitty upbringing and don't turn out like that.
It's called the butterfly effect "In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions; where a small change at one place in a nonlinear system can result in large differences to a later state." Read more about it if you find it interesting .
I'm not sure why you are associating this with the butterfly effect. Let's say the bus is delayed 5 minutes, that might mean someone gets run over by the bus - however if you apply this to Sharon Carr's situation, I don't see how the fact that her mother gets home late from work one day or that the bathroom smells funny is gonna trigger something in her brain making her a ruthless killing machine. To trigger something like this I would like to think something HUGE has to happen in her life OR that she has some very distinct brain malfunctions.
I am very interested in seeing how you want to apply the butterfly effect to this case though.
Edit: Fail quote.
I am reading some other posts, and i agree with you here (and some others) maybe she really has some very distinct brain malfunctions, that would be one explanation. With butterfly effect though (correct me if i am wrong), a small thing can cause a huge change in the outcome. The cause for killing might not be the bathroom smell (LOL) but probably something else and that is a misery to me. But that exact same cause could be applied to some other person and he would not turn into a ruthless killer. Wouldn't that mean the butterfly effect? Like y triggered x-actions that are not applied to some other person (that explains why everyone is not a serial killer) and those x-es shape in a way that the result is a serial killer. Damn, i have to read more about chaos theroy, only started a short time ago.
I guess we actually do agree upon the matter afterall. Initially I thought you were trying to justify this with a series of small-scaled events that happened during the short period of time that the teachers described as her going from gentle and polite to being disruptive and attention-seeking. However, as soon as you include her (apparent) brain malfunctions in the equation. Then combined with a series of events you could argue that the butterfly effect applies to this case - and I think this was what you were actually doing, but I might've just misunderstood you.
Hmmm, but don't you think that even without brain malfunctions (ie. not being able to sense empathy) the outcome can be a serial killer? Or am i thinking here too shallowly?
EDIT: damn, i guess you were asking me the exact same question?
so i was just flicking throught my news feed on fb and came across this news article-
Sharon Carr, a girl obsessed with death and violence, secured her place in criminal history yesterday as Britain's youngest female murderer.
She had killed at the age of 12 - a savage attack in which a teenage hairdresser was mutilated with 29 stab wounds. The victim, Katie Rackliff, had been picked out at random as she walked home from a nightclub in June l992.
The trial at Winchester Crown Court was told that in the years that followed, Carr seemed to be exultant over the killing, and yet haunted by it. She was endlessly writing about the murder and drawing pictures of a knife.
Samples of her notes were graphic. In one she said: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good." In another: " I was born to be a murderer. Killing for me is a mass turn-on and it just makes me so high I never want to come down. Every night I see the Devil in my dreams - sometimes even in my mirror, but I realise it was just me."
Four years after the murder, a diary entry stated: " I bring the knife into her chest. Her eyes are closing. She is pleading with me so I bring the knife to her again and again. I don't want to hurt her but I need to do violence to her ... I need to overcome her beauty, her serenity, her security. There I see her face when she died. I know she feels her life being slowly drawn from her and I hear her gasp. I guess she was trying to breathe.
"The air stops in the back of her throat. I know all her life her breathing has worked, but it does not now. And I am joyful".
Were these the fantasies of a deeply disturbed mind, as the defence claimed? Or, as the Crown held, the grim memories of an " evil and precocious" schoolgirl who gloried in what she had done? The jury had no doubt.
It was the writings, and subsequent verbal confessions that convicted Carr. There was no forensic evidence, but, as the prosecution pointed out, she had knowledge of the murder not available to the public. She graphically described one particular injury, details of which the police had deliberately withheld, and she also knew that a bracelet had been stolen from Katie Rackliff - knowledge that only the killer would have.
In June 1994, almost two years to the day after Katie's murder, Carr attacked a pupil called Ann-Marie Clifford with a knife, for no apparent reason, at Collingwood College Comprehensive in Camberley, Surrey.
While awaiting trial, she was sent to an assessment centre where she tried to strangle two members of staff. Two counts of actual bodily harm were taken into account when she was convicted of wounding Ann-Marie, and sentenced to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure.
At Bulwood Hall young offenders' institution, staff alerted police after Carr began talking about the killing of Katie Rackliff on the telephone to her friends and family and wrote about it in her diaries. She also began to give details of what she had done to a prison officer, on whom she had developed a crush, as well as talking about it to a probation officer.
The Rackliff killing had remained unsolved despite four years of intensive investigation by police. Some of the knife blows that Katie suffered in the attack had gone straight through her body and out the other side. Her sexual organs were mutilated, and her clothes pulled up, although there was no evidence of sexual assault.
Detectives seized Carr's writings and drawings, and questioned her for 27 hours. She gave three different accounts of how Katie had been killed, but in all of them the central theme was she had repeatedly stabbed her.
In two of the versions, Carr said she was with two boys in a car at the time of the attack, and they had engaged in sexual activity with Katie before dumping the body. She named the two boys. Police interviewed them but they provided alibis for each other, and were eliminated from the inquiry. However, the prosecution could not satisfactorily explain how Katie, who weighed 8st 8lbs, was dragged across a pavement and around a corner by a 12-year-old girl.
Carr continued with her writing even after being interviewed by the police. In April l996, the month before she was charged, she wrote: " I am not like one of those pretty girls who breaks down due to a guilty conscience. Through six and a half years of causing people grief, I still have not found one." On 7 June, her diary read: " Respect to Katie Rackliff. Four years today."
Sadistic violence seemed to be part of her life. Police discovered that she had decapitated a neighbour's dog with a spade, and there was also a "suggestion" from a friend that she had fried live hamsters.
Detective Sergeant Paul Clements, who interviewed Carr extensively, recalled: "It was almost as if she was in another world. What sticks in my mind about talking to her was the coldness. Most people that you interview show some feeling as to why they have done what they have done. But with her there was a complete absence of emotion and reason."
Carr was born in Belize in l981 and was brought up by her mother and stepfather - a soldier. After moving to England the family settled in Camberley, Surrey. Her parents split up and she was briefly fostered, but after a month she returned to the home of her mother. At school, her teachers initially described her as polite and helpful, but her behaviour deteriorated and she became disruptive and attention-seeking.
Criminal psychologist Gordon Tressler said: "This is a difficult case to understand. One can find precedents of young children killing other young children, but in this case it was a child killing someone who was almost an adult.
"This is an extremely dangerous person because she is clearly prepared to kill without an adequate motive. That makes her conduct very unpredictable and very dangerous. She is a great danger to the public."
This is honestly one of the most fucked up things i have ever read....
i have a younger sister around that age and to think someone that young could be so evil and cold just blows my mind. The way the girl describes the things she did is truely horrifying
It does say her parents broke up and that she was briefly put into foster care, and so my question is this- Do you think some people are just 'born killers' as she states, or is it the experiences one has growing up that could lead them to do such a thing? Or maybe even a combination of the two?
I do have a younger sister at that age, too. I for one think that it is indeed possible to be born as a killer. You only get satisfaction through causing pain and such. But I also believe that the divorce of her parents may have acted as a trigger to let her live out what she wanted to do. If they didn't break up, her daughter may have started killing people at the age of like 25 anyway.
I don't find these things horrifying at all and actually want to meet someone like that in life. For me it is poetic what has been written in her diary or w/e also I have myself wanted to kill people plenty of times especially family growing up. Though these things may be scary to some don't be an idiot because people think about these things in their daily lives everyday and you just don't know about them.
so i was just flicking throught my news feed on fb and came across this news article-
Sharon Carr, a girl obsessed with death and violence, secured her place in criminal history yesterday as Britain's youngest female murderer.
She had killed at the age of 12 - a savage attack in which a teenage hairdresser was mutilated with 29 stab wounds. The victim, Katie Rackliff, had been picked out at random as she walked home from a nightclub in June l992.
The trial at Winchester Crown Court was told that in the years that followed, Carr seemed to be exultant over the killing, and yet haunted by it. She was endlessly writing about the murder and drawing pictures of a knife.
Samples of her notes were graphic. In one she said: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good." In another: " I was born to be a murderer. Killing for me is a mass turn-on and it just makes me so high I never want to come down. Every night I see the Devil in my dreams - sometimes even in my mirror, but I realise it was just me."
Four years after the murder, a diary entry stated: " I bring the knife into her chest. Her eyes are closing. She is pleading with me so I bring the knife to her again and again. I don't want to hurt her but I need to do violence to her ... I need to overcome her beauty, her serenity, her security. There I see her face when she died. I know she feels her life being slowly drawn from her and I hear her gasp. I guess she was trying to breathe.
"The air stops in the back of her throat. I know all her life her breathing has worked, but it does not now. And I am joyful".
Were these the fantasies of a deeply disturbed mind, as the defence claimed? Or, as the Crown held, the grim memories of an " evil and precocious" schoolgirl who gloried in what she had done? The jury had no doubt.
It was the writings, and subsequent verbal confessions that convicted Carr. There was no forensic evidence, but, as the prosecution pointed out, she had knowledge of the murder not available to the public. She graphically described one particular injury, details of which the police had deliberately withheld, and she also knew that a bracelet had been stolen from Katie Rackliff - knowledge that only the killer would have.
In June 1994, almost two years to the day after Katie's murder, Carr attacked a pupil called Ann-Marie Clifford with a knife, for no apparent reason, at Collingwood College Comprehensive in Camberley, Surrey.
While awaiting trial, she was sent to an assessment centre where she tried to strangle two members of staff. Two counts of actual bodily harm were taken into account when she was convicted of wounding Ann-Marie, and sentenced to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure.
At Bulwood Hall young offenders' institution, staff alerted police after Carr began talking about the killing of Katie Rackliff on the telephone to her friends and family and wrote about it in her diaries. She also began to give details of what she had done to a prison officer, on whom she had developed a crush, as well as talking about it to a probation officer.
The Rackliff killing had remained unsolved despite four years of intensive investigation by police. Some of the knife blows that Katie suffered in the attack had gone straight through her body and out the other side. Her sexual organs were mutilated, and her clothes pulled up, although there was no evidence of sexual assault.
Detectives seized Carr's writings and drawings, and questioned her for 27 hours. She gave three different accounts of how Katie had been killed, but in all of them the central theme was she had repeatedly stabbed her.
In two of the versions, Carr said she was with two boys in a car at the time of the attack, and they had engaged in sexual activity with Katie before dumping the body. She named the two boys. Police interviewed them but they provided alibis for each other, and were eliminated from the inquiry. However, the prosecution could not satisfactorily explain how Katie, who weighed 8st 8lbs, was dragged across a pavement and around a corner by a 12-year-old girl.
Carr continued with her writing even after being interviewed by the police. In April l996, the month before she was charged, she wrote: " I am not like one of those pretty girls who breaks down due to a guilty conscience. Through six and a half years of causing people grief, I still have not found one." On 7 June, her diary read: " Respect to Katie Rackliff. Four years today."
Sadistic violence seemed to be part of her life. Police discovered that she had decapitated a neighbour's dog with a spade, and there was also a "suggestion" from a friend that she had fried live hamsters.
Detective Sergeant Paul Clements, who interviewed Carr extensively, recalled: "It was almost as if she was in another world. What sticks in my mind about talking to her was the coldness. Most people that you interview show some feeling as to why they have done what they have done. But with her there was a complete absence of emotion and reason."
Carr was born in Belize in l981 and was brought up by her mother and stepfather - a soldier. After moving to England the family settled in Camberley, Surrey. Her parents split up and she was briefly fostered, but after a month she returned to the home of her mother. At school, her teachers initially described her as polite and helpful, but her behaviour deteriorated and she became disruptive and attention-seeking.
Criminal psychologist Gordon Tressler said: "This is a difficult case to understand. One can find precedents of young children killing other young children, but in this case it was a child killing someone who was almost an adult.
"This is an extremely dangerous person because she is clearly prepared to kill without an adequate motive. That makes her conduct very unpredictable and very dangerous. She is a great danger to the public."
This is honestly one of the most fucked up things i have ever read....
i have a younger sister around that age and to think someone that young could be so evil and cold just blows my mind. The way the girl describes the things she did is truely horrifying
It does say her parents broke up and that she was briefly put into foster care, and so my question is this- Do you think some people are just 'born killers' as she states, or is it the experiences one has growing up that could lead them to do such a thing? Or maybe even a combination of the two?
I do have a younger sister at that age, too. I for one think that it is indeed possible to be born as a killer. You only get satisfaction through causing pain and such. But I also believe that the divorce of her parents may have acted as a trigger to let her live out what she wanted to do. If they didn't break up, her daughter may have started killing people at the age of like 25 anyway.
I don't find these things horrifying at all and actually want to meet someone like that in life. For me it is poetic what has been written in her diary or w/e also I have myself wanted to kill people plenty of times especially family growing up. Though these things may be scary to some don't be an idiot because people think about these things in their daily lives everyday and you just don't know about them.
The vast majority of people (probably >99.9%) will never kill someone for fun. There's a huge difference between random intrusive violent thoughts or even fantasies, which are common, and actually doing things.
On February 03 2012 04:54 Zinnwaldite wrote: these things are so interesting,, would be great to have a chat with her..
i kinda wanna fuck her for some reason..
User was temp banned for this post.
Rofl, wow. I was going to post something along the lines of this girl is going to be hot when she's legal, almost stepped over the line and was gonna say something similar to this. Now that I know it's a ban, ruh roh, shaggy.
Also i'm really interested into her would love to see what kind of person she actually is if she has any hobbys or such. I bet she could tell alot of storys
On February 03 2012 04:54 Zinnwaldite wrote: these things are so interesting,, would be great to have a chat with her..
i kinda wanna fuck her for some reason..
User was temp banned for this post.
I would have been cool with this comment if the GIRL WASNT TWELVE WTF.
sooo fucked up, I hope I never meet a 12 year old like this.
Relevant dates are relevant. She was twelve in 1992. Derpadurr. I thought most people read at least part of the original post before replying, especially before replying to replies. Context is useful thing toi have. She is a little older than twelve now.
"I don't want to hurt her but I need to do violence to her ... I need to overcome her beauty, her serenity, her security"
That just screams of trying to make her victim feel what she feels. Specially the last word. She makes it sound like she never had the protection of an adult for a certain event or through her life. I would translate that as.
"I don't want to hurt her but she must be shown how things really are, I need to take her joy of life, her trust in people, her false sense of security"
Needs more investigation into abuse. Although it could just be a chemical unbalance of the brain
She shows classic sociopath, murderer behavior. My friend once introduced me to a girl who was diagnosed as a sociopath, I have no idea why she did that, but it was creepy how her sociopath friend revealed to me in private that she spent 2 years in a mental institute and that her grand purpose in life was murder.
Ok everyone is gonna talk about the murder so im gonna go offtrack a bit and say daymn. A 12 yr old wrote that? Got some skills in the english language. I hope theres good creative writing and poetry class whereever shes detained.
On February 03 2012 07:32 Mental Union wrote:I can confirm, that under no situations, would I ever consider the idea of killing someone, unless they killed me. Which wouldn't really provide me the opportunity, to kill them.
You either fail logic forever, or you don't understand the meaning of "most".
My first reaction is that someone like this cannot be considered sane... Yet I the inference I drew from the OP was that defence had run their argument purely on the basis that she was delusional, rather than not guilty by reason of mental impairment and she had simply been convicted of murder.
Perhaps it's possible in theory to born with brain different enough to literally be born killer but probably safe to say that there's likely some less exiting explanation in her case.
Sounds like the movie "Orphan" the main character Esther was put into foster care and went on a killing spree at the age of 9. But she was suffering from a disease that hinders her appearance, when she is really a 22 year old.
A comforting thought is how many sane and perfectly decent people that exists in comparison to these maniacs. Imagine reading a news article about every perfectly normal human being per murderous lunatic out there.... we'd be doing nothing but reading news tbh
Yeah I think that she could have been born with those thoughts and wanting to do those things to people. I mean being a sociopath is a real thing, just because it took a bit to finally come to fruition seems likely. But then again I don't study these things, so that is just my best guess.
Really interesting to read though, these kind of people always fascinated me. The fact that she is such a young girl is the real twist to this story.
On February 03 2012 13:38 peekn wrote: Yeah I think that she could have been born with those thoughts and wanting to do those things to people. I mean being a sociopath is a real thing, just because it took a bit to finally come to fruition seems likely. But then again I don't study these things, so that is just my best guess.
Really interesting to read though, these kind of people always fascinated me. The fact that she is such a young girl is the real twist to this story.
Doubtful, if the father was a soldier and talked about his job a lot, I could see her background growing up having a lot more to do with it.
On February 03 2012 13:38 peekn wrote: Yeah I think that she could have been born with those thoughts and wanting to do those things to people. I mean being a sociopath is a real thing, just because it took a bit to finally come to fruition seems likely. But then again I don't study these things, so that is just my best guess.
Really interesting to read though, these kind of people always fascinated me. The fact that she is such a young girl is the real twist to this story.
1-3% of all people are sociopaths (or psychopaths, the terms are interchangeable), and they are indeed born as such. Only a fraction of those have these extreme murderous tendencies though. If all sociopaths were serial killers we'd be in a lot of trouble! Or maybe, we'd have weeded them out by now. Those that aren't as overt still cause a lot of grief and damage to the people around them, and society as a whole.
On February 03 2012 13:38 peekn wrote: Yeah I think that she could have been born with those thoughts and wanting to do those things to people. I mean being a sociopath is a real thing, just because it took a bit to finally come to fruition seems likely. But then again I don't study these things, so that is just my best guess.
Really interesting to read though, these kind of people always fascinated me. The fact that she is such a young girl is the real twist to this story.
1-3% of all people are sociopaths (or psychopaths, the terms are interchangeable), and they are indeed born as such. Only a fraction of those have these extreme murderous tendencies though. If all sociopaths were serial killers we'd be in a lot of trouble! Or maybe, we'd have weeded them out by now. Those that aren't as overt still cause a lot of grief and damage to the people around them, and to society as a whole.
AFAIK In almost all instances, female psychopath kill their victims by nurturing them to death (poison in the drink, smother when sleeping). I wonder if it took the police so long because they always assumed a male perpetrator?
Most killers become that due to events after birth, but some people are born killers, sociopaths are the first that comes to mind, people that is incapable of feeling remorse. Due to this lack of feeling remorse they will tend to destroy even the lives of others due to not seeing it as anymore meaningful than that really annoying puzzlegame they couldn't understand.
It's likely a brain abnormality. I'd like to see scans of her brain, we've been looking at brains of serial killers in psychology. Very interesting stuff. At least they got her before she hurt more people..
On February 03 2012 14:31 frogmelter wrote: I've been in a mostly good mood today but this thread is ruining it...
Every time I visit teamliquid and see this story on the side bar, my mood immediately takes a nosedive....
Happened like... 5 times already. Hiding the general section for now....
So your good mood is predicated on maintaining the delusion that the world isn't often a violent, fucked up place?
I guess that makes sense. Most happy people I meet are pretty naive and expert at denial. I wonder why I have this urge to embrace reality at every turn...
Because you're intelligent.
A lot of people who are labeling themselves as intelligent, or worse, intellectual, have an unhealthy urge to focus on everything that is negative. They claim they are realists, but I perceive them as sensationalists in disguise. "Good things" are not as exiting and so easy to overlook.
On February 03 2012 14:31 frogmelter wrote: I've been in a mostly good mood today but this thread is ruining it...
Every time I visit teamliquid and see this story on the side bar, my mood immediately takes a nosedive....
Happened like... 5 times already. Hiding the general section for now....
So your good mood is predicated on maintaining the delusion that the world isn't often a violent, fucked up place?
I guess that makes sense. Most happy people I meet are pretty naive and expert at denial. I wonder why I have this urge to embrace reality at every turn...
Because you're intelligent.
Hmmm.... I hope you are being serious and not sarcastically mocking me, it's hard for me to tell...
I'll just assume the former for now, that's what a happy person would do.
On February 03 2012 14:31 frogmelter wrote: I've been in a mostly good mood today but this thread is ruining it...
Every time I visit teamliquid and see this story on the side bar, my mood immediately takes a nosedive....
Happened like... 5 times already. Hiding the general section for now....
So your good mood is predicated on maintaining the delusion that the world isn't often a violent, fucked up place?
I guess that makes sense. Most happy people I meet are pretty naive and expert at denial. I wonder why I have this urge to embrace reality at every turn...
Because you're intelligent.
Hmmm.... I hope you are being serious and not sarcastically mocking me, it's hard for me to tell...
I'll just assume the former for now, that's what a happy person would do.
you're certainly not making yourself look intelligent.
On February 03 2012 14:31 frogmelter wrote: I've been in a mostly good mood today but this thread is ruining it...
Every time I visit teamliquid and see this story on the side bar, my mood immediately takes a nosedive....
Happened like... 5 times already. Hiding the general section for now....
So your good mood is predicated on maintaining the delusion that the world isn't often a violent, fucked up place?
I guess that makes sense. Most happy people I meet are pretty naive and expert at denial. I wonder why I have this urge to embrace reality at every turn...
Dude, human perception is a delusion. You realize that right? No one has an unbiased and clear view of the world.
If avoiding thinking about bad things is "naive and expert at denial", then sure I am those things. I see nothing but positives in doing so in this case. And yes, I try to not to dwell on negative things like this. Why? Because it's a past event. Thinking about how fucked up some shit is doesn't help the situation. I would also argue that it is not uncommon for people to feel bad when they read about such things. There is enough fucked up shit in the world. Tons of it... Enough for it to fill our thoughts for a lifetime if we let it. I'm confused why you feel thinking about really messed up stuff is a good thing?
You could argue that it is embracing "reality". You talk as if you've experienced "reality". You realize that humans can't really understand "reality" and that everyone lives in their own delusions right? They're part of being human. eg. Delusions about how important we are, delusions that other people will be in control of their cars on the freeway.
I don't know you as a person, but I feel your views seem a bit elitist and hypocritical for my taste....
On a side note, signing out from my TL account causes everything show itself. derp.
I feel as if it's some version of Mike Myers, like a real life perfect example of the movie Halloween. Kid just is a murderer, the only real thing you can do is lock them up until they can show consistently that they are not, but how do you tell, especially if its a psychopathic disorder...
On February 03 2012 14:31 frogmelter wrote: I've been in a mostly good mood today but this thread is ruining it...
Every time I visit teamliquid and see this story on the side bar, my mood immediately takes a nosedive....
Happened like... 5 times already. Hiding the general section for now....
So your good mood is predicated on maintaining the delusion that the world isn't often a violent, fucked up place?
I guess that makes sense. Most happy people I meet are pretty naive and expert at denial. I wonder why I have this urge to embrace reality at every turn...
Dude, human perception is a delusion. You realize that right? No one has an unbiased and clear view of the world.
If avoiding thinking about bad things is "naive and expert at denial", then sure I am those things. I see nothing but positives in doing so in this case. And yes, I try to not to dwell on negative things like this. Why? Because it's a past event. Thinking about how fucked up some shit is doesn't help the situation. I would also argue that it is not uncommon for people to feel bad when they read about such things. There is enough fucked up shit in the world. Tons of it... Enough for it to fill our thoughts for a lifetime if we let it. I'm confused why you feel thinking about really messed up stuff is a good thing?
You could argue that it is embracing "reality". You talk as if you've experienced "reality". You realize that humans can't really understand "reality" and that everyone lives in their own delusions right? They're part of being human. eg. Delusions about how important we are, delusions that other people will be in control of their cars on the freeway.
I don't know you as a person, but I feel your views seem a bit elitist and hypocritical for my taste....
On a side note, signing out from my TL account causes everything show itself. derp.
I guess I'm just of the attitude that coming to terms with what the world is and that it can be really terrible in many ways means you won't have a need to avoid that realization. Avoidance to me seems much less healthy than acceptance. I didn't mean to imply that my view of the world is the only unbiased or clear one, just that people who make a habit of purposely avoiding certain truths are kind of living in denial, that their happiness is predicated on denial and avoidance instead of embracing reality. If you bring up things which don't require an unbiased view of the world, like something as simple as human mortality, most people become extremely uncomfortable and seek to avoid any thought or mention of it. That to me seems like denial and seems unhealthy. Sorry if that comes across as elitist or if I'm trying to sound more intelligent than other people, that wasn't my intention. I'll stop derailing the thread now.
On February 03 2012 14:31 frogmelter wrote: I've been in a mostly good mood today but this thread is ruining it...
Every time I visit teamliquid and see this story on the side bar, my mood immediately takes a nosedive....
Happened like... 5 times already. Hiding the general section for now....
So your good mood is predicated on maintaining the delusion that the world isn't often a violent, fucked up place?
I guess that makes sense. Most happy people I meet are pretty naive and expert at denial. I wonder why I have this urge to embrace reality at every turn...
Because you're intelligent.
Hmmm.... I hope you are being serious and not sarcastically mocking me, it's hard for me to tell...
I'll just assume the former for now, that's what a happy person would do.
you're certainly not making yourself look intelligent.
Then I guess I was right after all, ignorance is bliss.
On February 03 2012 14:31 frogmelter wrote: I've been in a mostly good mood today but this thread is ruining it...
Every time I visit teamliquid and see this story on the side bar, my mood immediately takes a nosedive....
Happened like... 5 times already. Hiding the general section for now....
So your good mood is predicated on maintaining the delusion that the world isn't often a violent, fucked up place?
I guess that makes sense. Most happy people I meet are pretty naive and expert at denial. I wonder why I have this urge to embrace reality at every turn...
am I the only one who was somewhat surprised when I found out she was black? not trying to insinuate anything. just imagined her as some crazy white girl for some reason.
On February 03 2012 16:04 iamahydralisk wrote: am I the only one who was somewhat surprised when I found out she was black? not trying to insinuate anything. just imagined her as some crazy white girl for some reason.
Yeah... most of the cases tend to be of european descent... kind of surprised...
Ya I imagined a white girl also. I think the month she spent in a foster home might have something to do with this. Something in her life must have caused such a sick change in her. Like it isnt till you turn like 14 that you start making your own descisions, so you gotta blame the parents for this one.
On February 03 2012 16:04 iamahydralisk wrote: am I the only one who was somewhat surprised when I found out she was black? not trying to insinuate anything. just imagined her as some crazy white girl for some reason.
Not really, a book I read when I was 14 or so (so please don't fuck me over for not remembering the specific name) by an ex FBI agent who worked in profiling said the typical person with serial killing tendencies would be older, white, male, lone wolf, derive pleasure from the killings and had a remarkable or pained childhood.
The person here breaks half of those tendencies if we are to assume she would continue killing and become a serial killer (seems likely...).
I understand the lack of caring over another person may lead to being hacing no regrets in killing others, but all that "i'm a killer " "buisness is good" stuff seems like what a tryhard wannabe insane killer would say
I read about 2 paragraphs before I quit. I was fucking scared man. It really creeped me out- she sees the devil in her sleep?! thats really terrifying to me...
On February 03 2012 16:31 mrRoflpwn wrote: I read about 2 paragraphs before I quit. I was fucking scared man. It really creeped me out- she sees the devil in her sleep?! thats really terrifying to me...
It's just text, man. I believe in you, keep reading xD
They should study her brain...You know this is rather interesting, to my understanding, most serial killer do this because they aren't able to feel anything, so any rush ( like for example when you watch a really cool sc2 game or kiss your girlfriend ) is not possible for her unless she does some extreme things. But this girl is totally messed up in the head. About people saying education had a role in this...bleah...Poor education give us domestic violence and lack of emotional intelligence ( which is horrible for society sure ), but it does not give us these kind of monsters...
BBC or Discovery should get a documentary out of her ! I'm really curious of these kind of people, because they are so alien to us in a way...Also at least there is honesty in her actions...Horrible acts were committed by humans who initially had empathy but were led to believe that some people are subhumans,bad for society, easily to be killed without consequence. And I believe she is right, probably the ultimate experience, to watch another human die( in case you don't have empathy ). I would guess it's the equivalent of normal people like us ( or at least seems to me ), the first night of love with the girl/boy you really love...Probably same intensity, but instead of good...bad...
This is very interesting and very frightening as well...She must be studied! Probably we would be able to prevent this thing from happening, if most people wanted..
I keep wondering, since there are so many sociopaths, if there is any evolutionary advantage to the way they behaves. I mean the stuff about overcoming her beauty sounded like jealousy, which indicates competition. And imagine, in a primitive society, in a smaller community, without proper police work, this murder would probably be unresolved. Could it be a primitive strategty, to remove competition, and thus increase the chance of spreading your own genes?
Still, that story was on par with the most creepy fictional creepy pastas I have ever read. And it's real too.... World is a terrible place.
On February 03 2012 17:31 KungKras wrote: Wow, that was fucked up.
I keep wondering, since there are so many sociopaths, if there is any evolutionary advantage to the way they behaves. I mean the stuff about overcoming her beauty sounded like jealousy, which indicates competition. And imagine, in a primitive society, in a smaller community, without proper police work, this murder would probably be unresolved. Could it be a primitive strategty, to remove competition, and thus increase the chance of spreading your own genes?
Still, that story was on par with the most creepy fictional creepy pastas I have ever read. And it's real too.... World is a terrible place.
That's BS, they would've forked her ass after her first kill.
On February 03 2012 17:31 KungKras wrote: Wow, that was fucked up.
I keep wondering, since there are so many sociopaths, if there is any evolutionary advantage to the way they behaves. I mean the stuff about overcoming her beauty sounded like jealousy, which indicates competition. And imagine, in a primitive society, in a smaller community, without proper police work, this murder would probably be unresolved. Could it be a primitive strategty, to remove competition, and thus increase the chance of spreading your own genes?
Still, that story was on par with the most creepy fictional creepy pastas I have ever read. And it's real too.... World is a terrible place.
That's BS, they would've forked her ass after her first kill.
Not if they didn't know it was her. Like I said, in a more primitive society, with a much more primitive policing system.
Nah, just media and school fucked her mind up. Real killers don't see the devil or say there were born to be killers. Real killers don't need to kill.If they do it for pleasure it's for the pleasure of the hunt, of preparing the kill, of knowing how not to be caught, not the kill itself.They do it with a purpose, most of the time, and not out of pure hatred. They realise that what they do is not reversible, and most importantly, they have respect for human life.They have complete control over their emotions. That takes some real skill,bro. Police and society just ramp up the skill, since you have to blend in, maybe accuse someone else, plant false trails. I would respect someone like that to some extent, but not a jumped-up kid who's probably insane, craves attention so bad, and probably thinks most humans are useless. Writing things like that in your diary is really stupid:
I don't want to hurt her but I need to do violence to her ... I need to overcome her beauty, her serenity, her security.
I was born to be a murderer. Killing for me is a mass turn-on and it just makes me so high I never want to come down.
A good look at this should reveal that she's not without emotions, and that she in some way forces herself to murder the other girl, to feel Incontrol.She's really insecure, careless, insane, and the remorse her unconscious felt eventually broke the dam and she told everyone. The fact that she had a crush on a prison officer, confirms my hypothesis. She imagines herself as a devil and remains cold to the world, yet she is able to feel the burden of that and confesses to the law itself.
Yes. She was born with these problems She has a severe mental disorder for sure.
This is totally not true. Society today is a cruel thing. RIP Katie Rackliff
"Some of the knife blows that Katie suffered in the attack had gone straight through her body and out the other side. Her sexual organs were mutilated, and her clothes pulled up, although there was no evidence of sexual assault."
Both of those sentences are... insane. A 12 year old doing that? That is soooooo disturbing, its unfortunate that a person can ever come to a state such as this, you never know who it could be thats like this either. kind of scary. It said she WAS polite and kind at one point. :|
But at the same time I feel interested in her. Not sexually interested or anything, I just with I could study a person like this to try and figure how their mind works.
The only good thing about this whole story is that she started doing killings so young so she was not smart enough to cover her tracks. Imagine her an adult and cautious doing serial killings for who knows how long and who knows how many bodies left in her wake...
On February 03 2012 06:36 Myles wrote: [OT: The girl clearly has some issues. Millions of kids around the world grow up with shitty upbringing and don't turn out like that.
It's called the butterfly effect "In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions; where a small change at one place in a nonlinear system can result in large differences to a later state." Read more about it if you find it interesting .
I'm not sure why you are associating this with the butterfly effect. Let's say the bus is delayed 5 minutes, that might mean someone gets run over by the bus - however if you apply this to Sharon Carr's situation, I don't see how the fact that her mother gets home late from work one day or that the bathroom smells funny is gonna trigger something in her brain making her a ruthless killing machine. To trigger something like this I would like to think something HUGE has to happen in her life OR that she has some very distinct brain malfunctions.
I am very interested in seeing how you want to apply the butterfly effect to this case though.
Edit: Fail quote.
I am reading some other posts, and i agree with you here (and some others) maybe she really has some very distinct brain malfunctions, that would be one explanation. With butterfly effect though (correct me if i am wrong), a small thing can cause a huge change in the outcome. The cause for killing might not be the bathroom smell (LOL) but probably something else and that is a misery to me. But that exact same cause could be applied to some other person and he would not turn into a ruthless killer. Wouldn't that mean the butterfly effect? Like y triggered x-actions that are not applied to some other person (that explains why everyone is not a serial killer) and those x-es shape in a way that the result is a serial killer. Damn, i have to read more about chaos theroy, only started a short time ago.
I guess we actually do agree upon the matter afterall. Initially I thought you were trying to justify this with a series of small-scaled events that happened during the short period of time that the teachers described as her going from gentle and polite to being disruptive and attention-seeking. However, as soon as you include her (apparent) brain malfunctions in the equation. Then combined with a series of events you could argue that the butterfly effect applies to this case - and I think this was what you were actually doing, but I might've just misunderstood you.
Hmmm, but don't you think that even without brain malfunctions (ie. not being able to sense empathy) the outcome can be a serial killer? Or am i thinking here too shallowly?
EDIT: damn, i guess you were asking me the exact same question?
I do indeed believe that some serial killers don't necesarily have any significant kinds of genetic problems or malfunctions. However, when I look at this case I refuse to believe that this girl doesn't have some kind of brain defect - simply because of the severeness - she seems extremely cold and there's a significant lack of emotion in every quote of her in the original article. The most conclusive factor as to why I believe that there has to be something wrong genetically, though, is that there seems to be a lack of traumatic experiences for something as severe as this to happen.
On February 03 2012 06:36 Myles wrote: [OT: The girl clearly has some issues. Millions of kids around the world grow up with shitty upbringing and don't turn out like that.
It's called the butterfly effect "In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions; where a small change at one place in a nonlinear system can result in large differences to a later state." Read more about it if you find it interesting .
I'm not sure why you are associating this with the butterfly effect. Let's say the bus is delayed 5 minutes, that might mean someone gets run over by the bus - however if you apply this to Sharon Carr's situation, I don't see how the fact that her mother gets home late from work one day or that the bathroom smells funny is gonna trigger something in her brain making her a ruthless killing machine. To trigger something like this I would like to think something HUGE has to happen in her life OR that she has some very distinct brain malfunctions.
I am very interested in seeing how you want to apply the butterfly effect to this case though.
Edit: Fail quote.
I am reading some other posts, and i agree with you here (and some others) maybe she really has some very distinct brain malfunctions, that would be one explanation. With butterfly effect though (correct me if i am wrong), a small thing can cause a huge change in the outcome. The cause for killing might not be the bathroom smell (LOL) but probably something else and that is a misery to me. But that exact same cause could be applied to some other person and he would not turn into a ruthless killer. Wouldn't that mean the butterfly effect? Like y triggered x-actions that are not applied to some other person (that explains why everyone is not a serial killer) and those x-es shape in a way that the result is a serial killer. Damn, i have to read more about chaos theroy, only started a short time ago.
I guess we actually do agree upon the matter afterall. Initially I thought you were trying to justify this with a series of small-scaled events that happened during the short period of time that the teachers described as her going from gentle and polite to being disruptive and attention-seeking. However, as soon as you include her (apparent) brain malfunctions in the equation. Then combined with a series of events you could argue that the butterfly effect applies to this case - and I think this was what you were actually doing, but I might've just misunderstood you.
Hmmm, but don't you think that even without brain malfunctions (ie. not being able to sense empathy) the outcome can be a serial killer? Or am i thinking here too shallowly?
EDIT: damn, i guess you were asking me the exact same question?
I do indeed believe that some serial killers don't necesarily have any significant kinds of genetic problems or malfunctions. However, when I look at this case I refuse to believe that this girl doesn't have some kind of brain defect - simply because of the severeness - she seems extremely cold and there's a significant lack of emotion in every quote of her in the original article. The most conclusive factor as to why I believe that there has to be something wrong genetically, though, is that there seems to be a lack of traumatic experiences for something as severe as this to happen.
Read the article I posted right above you. Her mother used to put pepper in her vagina to punish her. Of course the kid is messed up.
On February 03 2012 18:46 dmnum wrote: I think the things she has done are awful.
But at the same time I feel interested in her. Not sexually interested or anything, I just with I could study a person like this to try and figure how their mind works.
The idea that people are born physically normal but psychologically nuts is a myth. The only possible way for people like this young girl to possibly exist is through parental abuse.
On February 03 2012 06:36 Myles wrote: [OT: The girl clearly has some issues. Millions of kids around the world grow up with shitty upbringing and don't turn out like that.
It's called the butterfly effect "In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions; where a small change at one place in a nonlinear system can result in large differences to a later state." Read more about it if you find it interesting .
I'm not sure why you are associating this with the butterfly effect. Let's say the bus is delayed 5 minutes, that might mean someone gets run over by the bus - however if you apply this to Sharon Carr's situation, I don't see how the fact that her mother gets home late from work one day or that the bathroom smells funny is gonna trigger something in her brain making her a ruthless killing machine. To trigger something like this I would like to think something HUGE has to happen in her life OR that she has some very distinct brain malfunctions.
I am very interested in seeing how you want to apply the butterfly effect to this case though.
Edit: Fail quote.
I am reading some other posts, and i agree with you here (and some others) maybe she really has some very distinct brain malfunctions, that would be one explanation. With butterfly effect though (correct me if i am wrong), a small thing can cause a huge change in the outcome. The cause for killing might not be the bathroom smell (LOL) but probably something else and that is a misery to me. But that exact same cause could be applied to some other person and he would not turn into a ruthless killer. Wouldn't that mean the butterfly effect? Like y triggered x-actions that are not applied to some other person (that explains why everyone is not a serial killer) and those x-es shape in a way that the result is a serial killer. Damn, i have to read more about chaos theroy, only started a short time ago.
I guess we actually do agree upon the matter afterall. Initially I thought you were trying to justify this with a series of small-scaled events that happened during the short period of time that the teachers described as her going from gentle and polite to being disruptive and attention-seeking. However, as soon as you include her (apparent) brain malfunctions in the equation. Then combined with a series of events you could argue that the butterfly effect applies to this case - and I think this was what you were actually doing, but I might've just misunderstood you.
Hmmm, but don't you think that even without brain malfunctions (ie. not being able to sense empathy) the outcome can be a serial killer? Or am i thinking here too shallowly?
EDIT: damn, i guess you were asking me the exact same question?
I do indeed believe that some serial killers don't necesarily have any significant kinds of genetic problems or malfunctions. However, when I look at this case I refuse to believe that this girl doesn't have some kind of brain defect - simply because of the severeness - she seems extremely cold and there's a significant lack of emotion in every quote of her in the original article. The most conclusive factor as to why I believe that there has to be something wrong genetically, though, is that there seems to be a lack of traumatic experiences for something as severe as this to happen.
Read the article I posted right above you. Her mother used to put pepper in her vagina to punish her. Of course the kid is messed up.
That gives a completely different view to the whole matter than the original article. It is extremely interesting what makes people cope in different ways with traumatic experiences like these, though.
On February 03 2012 20:13 RogerX wrote: Reminds me of the Joker from the Dark Knight...
But really, I read a lot of articles about fucked up murderers but this is... just..
She sounds worse. The Joker has some kind of sanity to his insanity.
She sounds like a horror movie character. Someone mentioned a film called The Orphan, this makes me think of that too. The kind of thing society just cant accept actually exists. I'm sure she makes an interesting case of psychologists though, and the nature vs nurture debate.
I don't think its anything to do with ur surroundings or this and that. I think its a matter of choice. She fried hamsters and killed a neighbors dog? There is no surroundings that teach kids to do that. The things she wrote in her diary about why and how she killed, That isn't happy kiddie play play writing. Its seemed like a person that knew what she wrote and why.. or some metal lyrics from some band.
She is 12 years old. In my eyes 12 years old children already know the difference between good and evil.. hell people use to get married at what 13 to 15 in the shakespear years. Ask ur self. when u were 12 years old? what grade where u at school at that time. i was grade 6. and i knew the difference between good and evil. i wasn't a dumbass that goes... oooww.. what will happen if is stab her?.. i Fucken know what will happen.
lol..
Put it this way.. i had cum wen i was 13... in the animal kingdom.. .. when u have cum.. ur body matured therefor your mind.
so i don't think u are born a killer. you chose to be a killer
On February 03 2012 20:42 brimestone wrote: I don't think its anything to do with ur surroundings or this and that. I think its a matter of choice. She fried hamsters and killed a neighbors dog?
What motivates people to make the choices they make is part of the nature vs nurture debate.
In other words, you cant say she isnt a product of her environment because she 'made the choice' to fry hamsters. Your mindset is a product of your environment, and your choices are a product of your mindset.
This is interesting. More disturbing than anything.
But, I have recently been reading books by Sylvia Brown, a renown physic, more out of curiosity and just to gain more perspective in general. Do I believe everything shes says, no, but a lot of things she teaches about is pretty interesting. She mentions that people can choose to either be light or dark entities.
To sparknote it, dark entities only live to cause pain and trouble for the light entities, aka generally good people. We each choose our path and once it is set, we are stuck with it. Of course there are grey ones that are on the fence, usually seemingly good people that out of no where do something dark and crazy, such as go on a murdering spree. Just interesting in general and the more I look at the world around me, the more of what she says makes sense. Just some thoughts I felt like sharing.
On February 03 2012 05:35 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I can't help but be a bit impressed here. This bitch managed to do things no kid should be able to manage. Thank god she's gonna spend the rest of her life in prison before she gets older and decides to blow up a nuclear reactor. I swear, that girl is a killing prodigy.
It must be simple being you, you have an easy life. I recall when I was just 5 years of age (My IQ was probably similar to yours, back then) I had some much joy in being ignorant. Enjoy your stupidity while it lasts, How this girl managed to perform her depraved acts, is not interesting, much more, how you manage to dress yourself every morning, that, is interesting.
How is this not impressive? Whenever a person does something that almost no one else has done, it is quite impressive. I sincerely hope you are just trolling. That is the only explanation I can come to as to why you would put so much effort into trying to appear intelligent in a post, and insulting another persons intelligence, while that persons managed to actually make a post with no spelling or miscapitalization errors, much unlike your own.
Spelling has very, very little to do with intelligence.
On February 03 2012 14:31 frogmelter wrote: I've been in a mostly good mood today but this thread is ruining it...
Every time I visit teamliquid and see this story on the side bar, my mood immediately takes a nosedive....
Happened like... 5 times already. Hiding the general section for now....
So your good mood is predicated on maintaining the delusion that the world isn't often a violent, fucked up place?
I guess that makes sense. Most happy people I meet are pretty naive and expert at denial. I wonder why I have this urge to embrace reality at every turn...
Because you're intelligent.
*delusional
No brain has the capacity to embrace "reality" at every turn, because:
1) Define "reality". 2) Every being has a different environment and a different scale of gravity. 3) The human mind is delusional by essence (Texas sharpshooter fallacy, priming, the confirmation bias, the hindsight bias, the just-world fallacy, etc, etc). 4) The stress generated by our environment requires some sort of relief, thus culture, games, sleep.
As Eisenstein said about Disney's movies, a man is like a bow, you can't pull the string forever. Relaxation is needed at some point to protect your own body and mind.
The very idea that you "need to embrace reality" is a delusion crafted by your brain to boost your self-esteem and value your own opinion over other's.
On February 03 2012 20:42 brimestone wrote: I don't think its anything to do with ur surroundings or this and that. I think its a matter of choice. She fried hamsters and killed a neighbors dog?
What motivates people to make the choices they make is part of the nature vs nurture debate.
In other words, you cant say she isnt a product of her environment because she 'made the choice' to fry hamsters. Your mindset is a product of your environment, and your choices are a product of your mindset.
Yes of course, that doesnt exatcly cross the possibilities of genetic disorder, its like.. She could have some kind of empathy disorder and it was later influenced by environment (her mother etc), she expressed herself by killing others/ making pain mimicking her mother, but it was not exatcly driven by surrow but rather curiosity/"boredom". Maybe it was like searching for her identity, in a twisted way. She couldnt feel anything towards other people in normal way so maybe the act of killing could give her this.
The notes in her diary are inconclusive. The girl who ruthlessly kills wouldnt use a diary its impractical and serve no purpose, it was maybe a fake identity she wanted to build or maybe she wanted to mimick other people behavior, just to feel something? You can always build up a fake excitement or give fake meaning to something if you believe in this.
Just some random ideas, would be interesting to hear from someone who knows the subject more.
I feel its raelly interesting psychological case, those are really rare cases, mostly seen in fiction works.
"But with her there was a complete absence of emotion and reason."
from her diary it seems clear that she does have emotion and reason, she is getting a thrill off killing and even experiences joy at what she did.
seems like a giant contradiction to me, trying to dehumanise someone who is pretty much inhuman already.
on the death sentence point, it can't happen in the UK, nothing warrants the death penalty over here, not even high treason (treason law changed in 1998). death may be too good for her, she relishes the idea too much for it to be a punishment
To me this sounds like some kind of sexual excitement thing. Such as some people get a kick out of eating people, some people like to have sex with dead people. Theres alot of crazy sexual orentiasitions.
These things may not come out before someone is older in full, but you can find traces of it in childhood. Also the fact that the womans sexual organs were mutilated.
Thats at least what it sounds like to me. Someone getting a kick out of sexual orientation for killing and causing pain.
That backstory sounds like something you would see from a supervillain in a comic book. Weird that it's real, but it's not a surprise that people like this really exist, albeit unfortunate.
Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
She has all the traits of a stereotypical serial killer.
The girl's writing is uncanny for her age. Just gave me an idea for a new screenplay. Won't share the title until I get the copyrights.
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Why do people think its evil? Evil is knowing soemthing is wrong and doing it anyway - she is just getting fucked up after doing soemthing wrong.
She has clearly been fucked up by something. Kids live in a dream world where they are still constructing their identity. Yes you made up who you were and then reinforced it over the years so that its habit, that is personality.
She is a product of everything around her - its not evil. The problem is that she did something that was 'wrong' and probably wanted to do it because she got pissed off. She accomplished her goal (hence feeling good about it) - and really killing someone you dont like is a fairly natural impulse its just that you get trained into it being 'something you never do' early on. For obvious reasons, if people kill then the cycle will never end (much like with war) so we trained ourselves socially not to do it. But a 12 year old is still discovering and buying into all this stuff.
Killing hundreds or thousands of people DOES make sense from all kinds of angles. Its totally morally corrupt and wrong from many others. Population control, resource shortages the destruction of the planet, world peace all can only really be realized by at least implicitly killing many many people or potential people. Be it through birth control, education or just voluntary slaughter it would solve real problems. The point being that rationality and morality really ahve nothing do with each other - or else it wouldnt be endlessly debated.
Also murder is not implicitly wrong. Even the most base simpleton would say that killing someone is not the most wrong option in some situations. So for someone to want to be the person making the right wrong and beign a hero is not at all unbelievable.
Which makes a 12 yo killing someone because they are 'clearly deserving' not unbelieveable at all - especially given that ideas of consequences are really badly formed in adults yet alone kids. Yeah adults get consequences, but how many are able to bear then in mind in emotional situations (very few).
Then all this crazy shit she is spurting out is because she doesnt mesh with the rest of society anymore due to her actions and is having a really shitty time reconciling that. Her imagination goes wild, she is forced to say it out loud to psychiatrists that just makes it more real - because they take this shit WAY to seriously and want to be the person who found the next really fucked up kid. The one off expression of something internal becomes a real piece of imagry by which they identify the girl (like kids in a playgound picking on the guy who shat himself or something), everything spirals around and one fucked up little girl is the inevitable product because eventually she will identify with what she is being labelled as. Moreover getting that kind of attention and *care* is probalby what was needed in the first place, but its not the constructive and loving kids. Its the kind that instills self doubt andanalysis rather than the drive to go out and just do stuff which further perpetuates the nice spiral into destruction.
'Sexual excitement' you think that because it was implied in the origional article - in a not very subtle way. When you are at that age sex stuff is fun *because if feels good*. There is nothing wrong with hedonism unless you are an adult who has been strongly trained to associate kids and sex as being 'a bad thing' - for good reason imo. But taking a hedonistic feeling and saying its sexual is crazy, the kid is probably associating everything with an orgasmic feeling. Its just you that is associating that with sex. Thats asserting causation from a correlation. A child flopping his dick out and having a tug makes sense, i worry more abotu the ones that you dont havew to teach 'that is not something you do in public too' they clearly are not creative or imaginative and have not found natures way of dealing with boredom ;p
Its all quite sad.
As for death penalty: are you religious? do you believe in punishment? If so why kill someone who is clearly torturing themselves? just give them more therapy to help fuck em up more. Killing is such an unimaginative punishment that depends on some form of negative afterlife. Stop hating then these people who are infused with hatred cannot be reinforced until you get people like this.
As for dualisms: They are opposites generated out of a system that cannot be comprehended to capture seemingly conflicting aspects that we cannot reconcile rationally. Debates about dualism are done by people who don't seem to get that the dualism was used to illustrate this and was designed not to be reconciled. The way you describe a problem to someone is by breaking it into separate lumps to make it digestible. To then say 'but these lumps are incompatible and different' totally misunderstands why it was done in the first place - that they are different *is* the meaning not the problem. Congrats on thinking, but step back a bit Mind and body describe the human condition. Mind makes no sense on its own, nor does body - they rely on their mutual exclusivity for their meaning. Like the good and evilness of an action.
Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings.
First, empathy does not equal feelings. It just means that you do not feel what other people feel (or more accurately , you can't imagine what other people would feel). But you still have feelings if something bad or good does occure to you.
And infact, "psychopathy" is a categorized mentally disorder, with one of the main symptoms is that you can't feel empathy, so i wonder how you come to the conclusion that noone is born with it, as psychopathy always correlates with structural brain differences.
The thing that bugs me the most about persons like this is, that really the only thing that seems to stop people from killing other people is the fact that you suffer if you do it. It seems like rational arguments don't affect behaviour at all.
Whoa. Super interesting. I wonder what she looks like. Probably looks normal, but I'm sure I'm not the only one imagining the girl out of 'The Ring' :D
On February 03 2012 04:50 Integra wrote: There are people with mental disorders that feels joy in seeing other people suffer, I guess that is what she has.
It's not a mental disorder. It's just a different way of enjoying life. Why are you so judgmental? Nothing wrong with a little sadism. MURDERING someone for pleasure is a completely different thing.
Well, injuring someone for pleasure and killing someone for pleasure sounds kinda similar too me. dontcha think?? 0.o
On February 03 2012 04:50 Integra wrote: There are people with mental disorders that feels joy in seeing other people suffer, I guess that is what she has.
It's not a mental disorder. It's just a different way of enjoying life. Why are you so judgmental? Nothing wrong with a little sadism. MURDERING someone for pleasure is a completely different thing.
Well, injuring someone for pleasure and killing someone for pleasure sounds kinda similar too me. dontcha think?? 0.o
Depends on your definition of "injury", I guess. Some people are quite adept at inflicting pain in BDSM situations without any physical consequences.
Not my cup of tea, but if some people like getting whipped by a chick wearing tight leather I've got no problem with it.
Well, injuring someone for pleasure and killing someone for pleasure sounds kinda similar too me. dontcha think
Well actually its not, i think a pretty good example how her judgement works and how the judgement of a normal person works is to put it like that:
I think "malicious joy" is a word that is familiar to many people. What is basically says is you harm someone or someone does something awkward and you feel joy about it. So if you should decide, should i do something "bad"? , you could put it into an equation like:
"the joy i get" - "how bad will i feel?" , where "how bad will i feel?" is just determined by your empathy, where you imagine you are in that situation and how you would feel.
If you are thinking about murdering someone, "normal" persons will always get to the conclusion that its not a good idea, because putting it in the terms regarding the equation above, the result will be very negative.
But for persons who don't feel empathy the "how bad will i feel?" value is always 0 it just does not affect the way they feel at all. Even if killing someone gives them 10 minutes of joy, they'll simply do it. Theres no emotional downside for them.
But the important thing is, the way persons make their decisions, no matter if they feel empathy or not, is basically the same, but for normal persons , killing someone will nearly never outweigh on the positive side. But that was not their decision,and to feel empathy not ours, so its really stupid to say something like "put her in a cell and let her rot" because the way someone feels is determined by your brain, or in other words by your genes, or atleast it is shaped through specific environmental input that you also have no control of, or somewhere in between, but definetly its not a personal decision that you just make, and no achievement of yourself.
@ MrTortoise: Your post made me throw up a little in my mouth.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote: Why do people think its evil? Evil is knowing soemthing is wrong and doing it anyway - she is just getting fucked up after doing soemthing wrong.
She has clearly been fucked up by something. Kids live in a dream world where they are still constructing their identity. Yes you made up who you were and then reinforced it over the years so that its habit, that is personality.
She is a product of everything around her - its not evil. The problem is that she did something that was 'wrong' and probably wanted to do it because she got pissed off. She accomplished her goal (hence feeling good about it) - and really killing someone you dont like is a fairly natural impulse its just that you get trained into it being 'something you never do' early on. For obvious reasons, if people kill then the cycle will never end (much like with war) so we trained ourselves socially not to do it. But a 12 year old is still discovering and buying into all this stuff.
There is no way to tell whether inhibition vs. killing is purely socialized. If we wanted to speculate, we could as well assume that humans have a natural 'bite inhibition' like many other mammals.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote:Killing hundreds or thousands of people DOES make sense from all kinds of angles. Its totally morally corrupt and wrong from many others. Population control, resource shortages the destruction of the planet, world peace all can only really be realized by at least implicitly killing many many people or potential people. Be it through birth control, education or just voluntary slaughter it would solve real problems. The point being that rationality and morality really ahve nothing do with each other - or else it wouldnt be endlessly debated.
First of all, the girl was hardly trying to solve world problems. Secondly, when we're debating morals, I fail to see how birth control, education, and voluntary slaughter could possibly end up in the same category. Last, morality is, at least to a good degree, rational.
Argument: I will torture and kill when I feel like it. Counterargument: What if everybody would do that?
That's rational. Our ideas of justice, or equality, are based upon reasoning about consequences, about generalization, about cause and effect, about adequacy, regularity, etc. All these thoughts are guided by reason.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote:Also murder is not implicitly wrong. Even the most base simpleton would say that killing someone is not the most wrong option in some situations. So for someone to want to be the person making the right wrong and beign a hero is not at all unbelievable.
Yes, murder is wrong, implicitly and explicitly. What you're failing to see here is called relativity. You have rules and exceptions. Although in regard to such a strong regularity, I wouldn't even speak of exceptions... what you're speaking of are freak cases.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote:Which makes a 12 yo killing someone because they are 'clearly deserving' not unbelieveable at all - especially given that ideas of consequences are really badly formed in adults yet alone kids. Yeah adults get consequences, but how many are able to bear then in mind in emotional situations (very few).
Then all this crazy shit she is spurting out is because she doesnt mesh with the rest of society anymore due to her actions and is having a really shitty time reconciling that. Her imagination goes wild, she is forced to say it out loud to psychiatrists that just makes it more real - because they take this shit WAY to seriously and want to be the person who found the next really fucked up kid. The one off expression of something internal becomes a real piece of imagry by which they identify the girl (like kids in a playgound picking on the guy who shat himself or something), everything spirals around and one fucked up little girl is the inevitable product because eventually she will identify with what she is being labelled as. Moreover getting that kind of attention and *care* is probalby what was needed in the first place, but its not the constructive and loving kids. Its the kind that instills self doubt andanalysis rather than the drive to go out and just do stuff which further perpetuates the nice spiral into destruction.
'Sexual excitement' you think that because it was implied in the origional article - in a not very subtle way. When you are at that age sex stuff is fun *because if feels good*. There is nothing wrong with hedonism unless you are an adult who has been strongly trained to associate kids and sex as being 'a bad thing' - for good reason imo. But taking a hedonistic feeling and saying its sexual is crazy, the kid is probably associating everything with an orgasmic feeling. Its just you that is associating that with sex. Thats asserting causation from a correlation. A child flopping his dick out and having a tug makes sense, i worry more abotu the ones that you dont havew to teach 'that is not something you do in public too' they clearly are not creative or imaginative and have not found natures way of dealing with boredom ;p
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc does not work that way. It's not like you'd have to correlate data to tell whether you're sexually aroused. I won't go into details, but you might want to check those biology books again.
On February 04 2012 00:04 MrTortoise wrote:Its all quite sad.
As for death penalty: are you religious? do you believe in punishment? If so why kill someone who is clearly torturing themselves? just give them more therapy to help fuck em up more. Killing is such an unimaginative punishment that depends on some form of negative afterlife. Stop hating then these people who are infused with hatred cannot be reinforced until you get people like this.
As for dualisms: They are opposites generated out of a system that cannot be comprehended to capture seemingly conflicting aspects that we cannot reconcile rationally. Debates about dualism are done by people who don't seem to get that the dualism was used to illustrate this and was designed not to be reconciled. The way you describe a problem to someone is by breaking it into separate lumps to make it digestible. To then say 'but these lumps are incompatible and different' totally misunderstands why it was done in the first place - that they are different *is* the meaning not the problem. Congrats on thinking, but step back a bit Mind and body describe the human condition. Mind makes no sense on its own, nor does body - they rely on their mutual exclusivity for their meaning. Like the good and evilness of an action.
Wait...what? First you're claiming that dualisms are an instrument to comprehend complicated stuff... I guess you're trying to say that discrete terms shouldn't be used to describe continuous things. So far I would agree, although I'd add: and vice versa. Then you're claiming that we cannot use continuois terms. That's of course wrong. Not the same level of wrong as your understanding of the correlation-causation problem, but definitely on the same scale (see what I did there? ). And finally, you compare the relationship of mind and body to the one between good and evil. Frankly, I don't even see what you're trying to imply here. That one concept doesn't exist without the other? Does a corpse have a mind?
Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings.
First, empathy does not equal feelings. It just means that you do not feel what other people feel (or more accurately , you can't imagine what other people would feel). But you still have feelings if something bad or good does occure to you.
And infact, "psychopathy" is a categorized mentally disorder, with one of the main symptoms is that you can't feel empathy, so i wonder how you come to the conclusion that noone is born with it, as psychopathy always correlates with structural brain differences.
The thing that bugs me the most about persons like this is, that really the only thing that seems to stop people from killing other people is the fact that you suffer if you do it. It seems like rational arguments don't affect behaviour at all.
Rational arguments do affect behavior, but it depends on how rational the person in question is. A 12 year old girl who was dealing with abuse at the hands of her mother? Not surprising that she threw reason out of the window and killed that teenager. Most psychopaths/sociopaths don't kill people, either because they fear the consequences, or because they have no rational reason to kill someone anyway. If a person was in a position to gain from a kill and could be reasonably safe that they could do so without repercussions, their conscience would be the only thing holding them back, and psychopaths lack exactly that.
its always about power. for some people murder is the ultimate form of power you can wield over somebody. its the same with several sexual situations. when you jerk off to or actually cum into an womans face, you also get high by the power. i guess for people with a mental disorder, people that feel no empathy, its kinda like this, just many times over
On February 04 2012 03:35 Kater wrote: its always about power. for some people murder is the ultimate form of power you can wield over somebody. its the same with several sexual situations. when you jerk off to or actually cum into an womans face, you also get high by the power. i guess for people with a mental disorder, people that feel no empathy, its kinda like this, just many times over
That's kind of sick, but I see your point. I too think that she wanted to feel she had the power to decide whether her victim would live or die, and it most likely made her feel exhilarated.
On February 04 2012 03:35 Kater wrote: its always about power. for some people murder is the ultimate form of power you can wield over somebody. its the same with several sexual situations. when you jerk off to or actually cum into an womans face, you also get high by the power. i guess for people with a mental disorder, people that feel no empathy, its kinda like this, just many times over
That's kind of sick, but I see your point. I too think that she wanted to feel she had the power to decide whether her victim would live or die, and it most likely made her feel exhilarated.
What she said about needing to "overcome her beauty, her serenity" implies that she was jealous of her and angry that she could be so carefree while she herself was abused and could not be the same.
I'm still trying to figure out how she stabbed all the way through the victim several times, though. It doesn't say what size knife was used, does it?
Come on. Is this worth discussing? She clearly has mental issues and requires a full psychiatric work-up. End of story. End of thread. Nothing exciting here.
That could be some kind of stupid attention whoring. I mean it's that or she's incredibly stupid. Really ? Holding a diary with the details of the murder ?
On February 04 2012 03:56 PinkLithe wrote: No such thing as pure evil.
Come on. Is this worth discussing? She clearly has mental issues and requires a full psychiatric work-up. End of story. End of thread. Nothing exciting here.
Congratulations, you've perpetuated discussion by keeping the thread in the general column! ^_^
And whether or not what she's doing is "evil" is a matter of semantics really. No one's gonna say what she did was good, or that she's a good person...
On February 04 2012 03:56 PinkLithe wrote: No such thing as pure evil.
Come on. Is this worth discussing? She clearly has mental issues and requires a full psychiatric work-up. End of story. End of thread. Nothing exciting here.
How can you say there is nothing exciting here. This kind of thing is at the very core of psychology and philosophy and biology, and realizing that there is a capability of the human mind to rationalize and embrace this sort of thing is a facinating, while terrifying, subject. It also raises a lot of questions as to how much of this comes from genetics and how much from environment.
No one is ever "born a killer." Just as no one is ever born a genius; personalities and characteristics are a complex interaction of both dispositions and environment. Neither one is completely responsible for the outcome. Sure, you could have the disposition to be a killer (lack of empathy, fear, etc.), but you need certain environmental factors to help push you over the edge. Just because you have certain traits does not automatically mean you are destined to be a sadist or a killer. In fact, the very same traits that psychologists find in serial killers (apathy, fearlessness, callousness, etc.) are also found in many other socialized groups; lawyers, firefighters, police officers and prominent businessmen have also tested in similar ranges as serial killers on these tests. But it is because they had adequate socialization and the proper environment that allowed them to find a way to channel these traits in a socially acceptable way.
Therefore, no one is ever predestined to become a killer. Some factors may be out of our control, but there is definitely more at play than a "killer gene."
On February 04 2012 04:18 Byaa wrote: No one is ever "born a killer." Just as no one is ever born a genius; personalities and characteristics are a complex interaction of both dispositions and environment. Neither one is completely responsible for the outcome. Sure, you could have the disposition to be a killer (lack of empathy, fear, etc.), but you need certain environmental factors to help push you over the edge. Just because you have certain traits does not automatically mean you are destined to be a sadist or a killer. In fact, the very same traits that psychologists find in serial killers (apathy, fearlessness, callousness, etc.) are also found in many other socialized groups; lawyers, firefighters, police officers and prominent businessmen have also tested in similar ranges as serial killers on these tests. But it is because they had adequate socialization and the proper environment that allowed them to find a way to channel these traits in a socially acceptable way.
Therefore, no one is ever predestined to become a killer. Some factors may be out of our control, but there is definitely more at play than a "killer gene."
If no one is ever born a genius what are prodigies?
On February 04 2012 04:18 Byaa wrote: No one is ever "born a killer." Just as no one is ever born a genius; personalities and characteristics are a complex interaction of both dispositions and environment. Neither one is completely responsible for the outcome. Sure, you could have the disposition to be a killer (lack of empathy, fear, etc.), but you need certain environmental factors to help push you over the edge. Just because you have certain traits does not automatically mean you are destined to be a sadist or a killer. In fact, the very same traits that psychologists find in serial killers (apathy, fearlessness, callousness, etc.) are also found in many other socialized groups; lawyers, firefighters, police officers and prominent businessmen have also tested in similar ranges as serial killers on these tests. But it is because they had adequate socialization and the proper environment that allowed them to find a way to channel these traits in a socially acceptable way.
Therefore, no one is ever predestined to become a killer. Some factors may be out of our control, but there is definitely more at play than a "killer gene."
If no one is ever born a genius what are prodigies?
The ones with some natural talent and who also invested huge amounts of time into learning whatever they were prodigious at. People are born with genius intellects, but being a prodigy at something doesn't entirely come with intellect.
On February 04 2012 04:18 Byaa wrote: No one is ever "born a killer." Just as no one is ever born a genius; personalities and characteristics are a complex interaction of both dispositions and environment. Neither one is completely responsible for the outcome. Sure, you could have the disposition to be a killer (lack of empathy, fear, etc.), but you need certain environmental factors to help push you over the edge. Just because you have certain traits does not automatically mean you are destined to be a sadist or a killer. In fact, the very same traits that psychologists find in serial killers (apathy, fearlessness, callousness, etc.) are also found in many other socialized groups; lawyers, firefighters, police officers and prominent businessmen have also tested in similar ranges as serial killers on these tests. But it is because they had adequate socialization and the proper environment that allowed them to find a way to channel these traits in a socially acceptable way.
Therefore, no one is ever predestined to become a killer. Some factors may be out of our control, but there is definitely more at play than a "killer gene."
If no one is ever born a genius what are prodigies?
Prodigies are those who have abilities that, given certain circumstances, can express such abilities. People with Perfect Pitch have Perfect Pitch in the context of music. But if they are never exposed to music, they're ability is never displayed/exposed. I'm saying there are certain things that may be inherent to the individual (I will NEVER have the inherent intellectual abilities of Einstein, Bohr, Oppenheimer, etc.) but if they were never exposed to the nurturing environment they were exposed to, they're abilities would never have reached their full potential. Imagine if Einstein grew up away from any exposure to formal education; do you think he would ever have had some of the insightful and brilliant ideas he did?
Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this.
On February 04 2012 04:49 attwell wrote: Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this.
She was 12 in 1992, so now she's 32. Anyway, her mother apparently put pepper in her vagina to punish her as a child, and I'm sure other terrible things along those lines were done to her.
On February 04 2012 04:49 attwell wrote: Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this.
She was 12 in 1992, so now she's 32. Anyway, her mother apparently put pepper in her vagina to punish her as a child, and I'm sure other terrible things along those lines were done to her.
Can you give a source for this information. I havent read anything like that.
On February 04 2012 04:49 attwell wrote: Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this.
She was 12 in 1992, so now she's 32. Anyway, her mother apparently put pepper in her vagina to punish her as a child, and I'm sure other terrible things along those lines were done to her.
doesn't really change anything about what I said though, just shift it back 20 years.
On February 04 2012 04:49 attwell wrote: Is anyone else here more interested in what her foster home and early life were like than the details of her psychoses and behaviors?
I would bet good money that there was a form of sexual/physical/emotional abuse going on, possibly from her foster parents or siblings, a neighbor, whoever.
I just don't think a kid goes from normal child -> murderer because they are evil. It's because they are responding to things that have happened to them.
And I mean...she's 12. that's really young for people not to consider that this girl may have been severely isolated and abused in the past and it's grown into this.
She was 12 in 1992, so now she's 32. Anyway, her mother apparently put pepper in her vagina to punish her as a child, and I'm sure other terrible things along those lines were done to her.
Can you give a source for this information. I havent read anything like that.
Someone wrote that on page 11. I assumed they took it from the actual article, and I only read what was copied and pasted into the OP.
On February 03 2012 04:40 Norris_is_GODLY wrote: i have a younger sister around that age and to think someone that young could be so evil and cold just blows my mind. The way the girl describes the things she did is truely horrifying
It does say her parents broke up and that she was briefly put into foster care, and so my question is this- Do you think some people are just 'born killers' as she states, or is it the experiences one has growing up that could lead them to do such a thing? Or maybe even a combination of the two?
I think that problems, specifically abuse, lack of positive emotional contact, very early in your life can lead to you being raised with pretty much no empathy whatsoever.
I believe that in those cases, if you find something that raise intense emotion, it may act like a drug, and makes you obsessed about it.
And if that thing is death, I think you can turn into an evil killer. If that thing is sex, serial rapist. If it's adrenaline, dangerous crime. If it's material success, manipulation scamming seduction - normal psychopathic behavior, and so on ...
I strongly believe the following is true:
If someone doesn't find relational contact with others rewarding, most of life's deepest joys and sorrows are denied to him. Only material pleasures remain: food, sexual stimulation, games, drugs, thrills. Even achievement is diminished when others' feelings about it are not important.
Further, children without empathy do not wish to please their parents, peers or teachers-- so they are not motivated to behave well by praise or affection. Displeasing others is also not upsetting to them-- so most punishments fail to change their behavior, other than prompting attempts to avoid getting caught.
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Empathy goes hand to hand with spirituality. If you reject your sense of spirituality, you reject your ability to feel empathy. I've seen big enough changes in ppl to know that you can develop or get more in tune with your empathy. I know someone specific who used to be really jaded. He never cried as far as I knew, but nowadays he gets teary eyed over even the most minor stuff. I noticed this change gradually after he got religious. He became more in tune with his spirituality, and he developed a stronger sense of empathy.
A lot of ppl neglect their ability to feel empathy because it protects them from being hurt. My mother had to quit her career as a nurse because her empathy got unbearable. She couldn't stand going to work and see so many ppl not receiving proper care. She also quit her next job as a telephone salesman for the same reasons, because she couldn't bear luring them into buying what she was selling. And believe me, she was very good and successful at what she did. She have all the good qualities that a salesman needs, but in the end her conscience got too much. If she had worked long enough, it's possible that it would have jaded her and made it more bearable, but it would have meant that she had become less in tune with her emotions.
I think that serial killers or violent behavior in general are a result of chronic emotional abuse, sometimes self-inflicted. But the serial killers also seems to have this compulsive idea about going against the norm and breaking the rules. I think that a big reason why they kill ppl is simply because they can. Their emotional abuse have screwed them up so bad that they have given up on having a normal happy life, so they decide to go all-out on their fantasies, which often seems to be sexual in nature. When you are at that state that you've decided to do that, empathy is just an obstacle. If you guys think that empathy stops ppl from killing, you need to open your minds.
Maybe this was just a lie, but the serial killer Ted Bundy said that he had to get himself drunk before he could kill his victims, atleast in the beginning. Note that there's a huge difference between killing because you're drunk, and getting yourself drunk so that you can kill. He knew that he wanted to kill. He had embraced the idea, but when it was time to do it, he was unable to do it. Empathy stopped him, at first. But he found ways to silence it, and then it got easier because it became a habit.
On February 03 2012 04:55 Kolvacs wrote: Traumatic events in someone's life can change the way a person thinks. Some people take their parent's divorce different then others. Not to say that I think that was the main reason, she may have had some sort of mental disorder that was 'forcing' her to do these things. That being said, I think that this story could be made into an awesome horror movie!
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Empathy goes hand to hand with spirituality. If you reject your sense of spirituality, you reject your ability to feel empathy.
So, you are making a statement that has no basis in facts As an atheist, who does not believe in anything supernatural, I reject your statement as absurd.
But I empathize with your need to make a case for religious people like yourself being superior to others
Just kidding
But i think that the existence of humanism disproves your point.
On a serious note, there is something wrong with our society that we have managed to leap beyond what is even socially imaginable in terms of taboo and morality. We need a deep societal cleansing and start to fact these issues sooner than later.
On February 04 2012 07:28 Rafael wrote: Don't think it is an innate madness.
I'm pretty sure it has to do with something on his early childhood (<10 years), some kind of fucked up sexual and physological abuse.
Recent studies have shown humans aren't born some way, but instead brough up to it (like violence, abuse, enviorment)
I don't know enough about the case to make any kind of judgement, but a priori dismissing genetic disorders and disease as a reason for being so messed up seems hasty.
On February 04 2012 07:28 Rafael wrote:Recent studies have shown humans aren't born some way, but instead brough up to it (like violence, abuse, enviorment)
The idea that a person is born as a tabula rasa, an empty canvas, has been rejected long ago. This of course doesn't mean that people are born exactly some way and stay that way, but genes and other things that matter before you're born do have an effect.
Innately violent? Perhaps innately sociopathic, which is possible, I guess. Perhaps she's just a child with a missing childhood. I remember watching a documentary about a girl with a seriously deranged family that was put up for adoption and ended up almost killing her infantile brother multiple times with bladed weapons... who just got better with a more structured fulfilling life.
On February 03 2012 05:07 danl9rm wrote: The Bible says that all humans are born into sin, separated from God, and thus capable of these atrocities. All of us. However, due to the rare nature of this story, it is certainly intriguing.
I am reminded of Mark 5:1-20, when Jesus casts demons out of a man.
However, the prosecution could not satisfactorily explain how Katie, who weighed 8st 8lbs, was dragged across a pavement and around a corner by a 12-year-old girl.
3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him.
While awaiting trial, she was sent to an assessment centre where she tried to strangle two members of staff.
Matthew 8:28 They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
Obviously there are differences, but the similarities are eerie.
thank you for enlightining us, mr.prophet.
on topic; these things can always happen, its not much shocking to me donno why but todays world is producing far worse stuff than this even. oh also i strongly disagree with the fact that people can be born with mental illness regarding these stuff. imho, no one is a natural born killer, people adopt and inherit those stuff during their lifetime some way around in their enviorement that they have to live in..
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Empathy goes hand to hand with spirituality. If you reject your sense of spirituality, you reject your ability to feel empathy.
So, you are making a statement that has no basis in facts As an atheist, who does not believe in anything supernatural, I reject your statement as absurd.
But I empathize with your need to make a case for religious people like yourself being superior to others
Just kidding
But i think that the existence of humanism disproves your point.
Atheism has nothing to do with belief of the supernatural, and spirituality involves more than religion.
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Empathy goes hand to hand with spirituality. If you reject your sense of spirituality, you reject your ability to feel empathy.
So, you are making a statement that has no basis in facts As an atheist, who does not believe in anything supernatural, I reject your statement as absurd.
But I empathize with your need to make a case for religious people like yourself being superior to others
Just kidding
But i think that the existence of humanism disproves your point.
Atheism has nothing to do with belief of the supernatural, and spirituality involves more than religion.
Which was why I specified 'as an atheist who does not believe in anything supernatural'. Now that would tend to include a disbelief in everything spiritual - agreed?
On February 04 2012 09:23 bLooD. wrote: Wow....how can someone get so fu**ed up? At that age a little girl should be enjoying a careless life... not going around killing someone.
It reminds me a lot of the Ted Bundy case. I guess some people are just born (or nurtured?) to be like that. With 6,500,000,000,000 people in the world, it's inevitable you're going to get a few.
The first thing that came to my mind was: Hannibal. I actually find it very interesting how people can be driven to do things like that... now I want to become a psychiatrist.
On February 04 2012 09:31 CluEleSs_UK wrote: It reminds me a lot of the Ted Bundy case. I guess some people are just born (or nurtured?) to be like that. With 6,500,000,000,000 people in the world, it's inevitable you're going to get a few.
No wonder I've been feeling smushed lately...
Regardless of whether it was society's fault, or whether she was just an abberation, this girl should be kept away from the public for a long time, either to rehab, or to keep the public safe. I mean, I don't even want to be in the same room as someone who thinks she enjoys killing people. Except my girlfriend. But that's our own thing.
On February 04 2012 09:31 CluEleSs_UK wrote: It reminds me a lot of the Ted Bundy case. I guess some people are just born (or nurtured?) to be like that. With 6,500,000,000,000 people in the world, it's inevitable you're going to get a few.
No wonder I've been feeling smushed lately...
Regardless of whether it was society's fault, or whether she was just an abberation, this girl should be kept away from the public for a long time, either to rehab, or to keep the public safe. I mean, I don't even want to be in the same room as someone who thinks she enjoys killing people. Except my girlfriend. But that's our own thing.
6.5 trillion? O_o
Also, your gf enjoys killing people? Interesting, please go on.
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Empathy goes hand to hand with spirituality. If you reject your sense of spirituality, you reject your ability to feel empathy.
So, you are making a statement that has no basis in facts As an atheist, who does not believe in anything supernatural, I reject your statement as absurd.
But I empathize with your need to make a case for religious people like yourself being superior to others
Just kidding
But i think that the existence of humanism disproves your point.
Religion is just one way of being spiritual. Whether God exists or not doesn't matter. At the very least, Christ was a good role-model. If you think that religion is all bad, then you know nothing about religion, plus it was not even a important part of my point. I just felt like I needed to point out how he got more spiritual or it wouldn't have made as much sense.
Spirituality just means that you're in tune with your emotions. A person with no spirituality is someone who listens entirely on logic. They reject their feelings for logic. We all have those tendencies to some extent, but my point is that it's possible to become more spiritual and less logical, and it's possible to go in the opposite direction as well. Empathy doesn't exist in the logical brain and that's why ppl who have rejected their spirituality tends to show no signs of empathy. Please note that spirituality goes beyond believing in God. All honest relationships counts as spirituality, including the relationship towards your own well-being.
On February 04 2012 19:42 Snow Goose wrote: sucks for her most really, would be what seems completely natural to her and she is gonna be in a pysch ward for the rest of her life because of it
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Empathy goes hand to hand with spirituality. If you reject your sense of spirituality, you reject your ability to feel empathy.
So, you are making a statement that has no basis in facts As an atheist, who does not believe in anything supernatural, I reject your statement as absurd.
But I empathize with your need to make a case for religious people like yourself being superior to others
Just kidding
But i think that the existence of humanism disproves your point.
Religion is just one way of being spiritual. Whether God exists or not doesn't matter. At the very least, Christ was a good role-model. If you think that religion is all bad, then you know nothing about religion, plus it was not even a important part of my point. I just felt like I needed to point out how he got more spiritual or it wouldn't have made as much sense.
Spirituality just means that you're in tune with your emotions. A person with no spirituality is someone who listens entirely on logic. They reject their feelings for logic. We all have those tendencies to some extent, but my point is that it's possible to become more spiritual and less logical, and it's possible to go in the opposite direction as well. Empathy doesn't exist in the logical brain and that's why ppl who have rejected their spirituality tends to show no signs of empathy. Please note that spirituality goes beyond believing in God. All honest relationships counts as spirituality, including the relationship towards your own well-being.
I have nothing against most religious people, I don't know why you think I stated religion being bad or only bad. That was not what I wrote. Please reread it
However, you don't understand what spirituality means. Please look it up in the dictionary or wikipedia
Now that I understand what you meant by spirituality, I understand what you meant, however ... your understanding of the word spirituality isn't actually what the word means - at least not historically (I guess some people may use it that way, so maybe I am wrong, words do change meaning over time), so that is why I misunderstood you. Most often though (100% of the time in my experience), people that are 'spiritual' do not believe there is no soul, no god(s), nothing supernatural that exists.
And I certainly agree, in most cases, Christ (and Buddha), are good role models.
On February 03 2012 04:54 Kamais Ookin wrote: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good."
Megadeth influenced her I see.
That saying goes back before megadeth...
That was the first thing I thought of...how long is it going to take for people ti link this to megadeth lol....even though the album itself was supposed to be against war etc.
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Empathy goes hand to hand with spirituality. If you reject your sense of spirituality, you reject your ability to feel empathy.
So, you are making a statement that has no basis in facts As an atheist, who does not believe in anything supernatural, I reject your statement as absurd.
But I empathize with your need to make a case for religious people like yourself being superior to others
Just kidding
But i think that the existence of humanism disproves your point.
Religion is just one way of being spiritual. Whether God exists or not doesn't matter. At the very least, Christ was a good role-model. If you think that religion is all bad, then you know nothing about religion, plus it was not even a important part of my point. I just felt like I needed to point out how he got more spiritual or it wouldn't have made as much sense.
Spirituality just means that you're in tune with your emotions. A person with no spirituality is someone who listens entirely on logic. They reject their feelings for logic. We all have those tendencies to some extent, but my point is that it's possible to become more spiritual and less logical, and it's possible to go in the opposite direction as well. Empathy doesn't exist in the logical brain and that's why ppl who have rejected their spirituality tends to show no signs of empathy. Please note that spirituality goes beyond believing in God. All honest relationships counts as spirituality, including the relationship towards your own well-being.
Firstly, this has nothing to do with "spirituality" or religion, this is about sexual pleasure. From the OP:
Samples of her notes were graphic. In one she said: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good." In another: " I was born to be a murderer. Killing for me is a mass turn-on and it just makes me so high I never want to come down. Every night I see the Devil in my dreams - sometimes even in my mirror, but I realise it was just me."
Secondly, I don't like how you've hijacked the definition of spirituality to include any honest relationship, including with yourself. I'm an atheist and I'm not spiritual in any way under a conventional definition of spirituality. This woman has a honest relationship with herself, she is sexually stimulated by killing and she knows it. That's honesty -- and "spirituality".
On February 04 2012 19:42 Snow Goose wrote: sucks for her most really, would be what seems completely natural to her and she is gonna be in a pysch ward for the rest of her life because of it
u fucking suck if u feel bad for her
I feel bad for her. I feel bad for the victim and their family too.
To feel sorrow that a child could have their worldview so warped and their capacity to experience emotion so diminished that they will never be able to lead a free life is not a bad thing. This is a girl who will never go on holiday, or love, and will probably never even form a lasting friendship. She can't set up her own home, or go to college, or raise children. And because of her issues, she won't even properly understand why. Without feeling affection for someone, it is difficult to truly comprehend what killing means to the community and why the community rejects this infringement of societal rules more than almost any other.
It is not wrong to deprive this psychopath of her freedom for the rest of her life, but that it is sad that it is necessary.
On February 04 2012 19:42 Snow Goose wrote: sucks for her most really, would be what seems completely natural to her and she is gonna be in a pysch ward for the rest of her life because of it
It's hard to even imagine what emotions are like for her. Maybe being in prison isn't any more mundane than living outside - except she can't kill things. Anyway most of our sympathy should surely go to the woman who was stabbed and her family.
On February 04 2012 19:42 Snow Goose wrote: sucks for her most really, would be what seems completely natural to her and she is gonna be in a pysch ward for the rest of her life because of it
It's hard to even imagine what emotions are like for her. Maybe being in prison isn't any more mundane than living outside - except she can't kill things. Anyway most of our sympathy should surely go to the woman who was stabbed and her family.
Imagine a normal woman with the urge to have sex with men for pleasure, now replace having sex with men with killing people. It seems to me that that's pretty much all it is.
On February 04 2012 19:42 Snow Goose wrote: sucks for her most really, would be what seems completely natural to her and she is gonna be in a pysch ward for the rest of her life because of it
u fucking suck if u feel bad for her
R U 4 RELLA? Now, let's use the big words, you would suck if you didn't. She is sick, and any sick person deserves pity, no matter their actions.
On February 03 2012 23:52 ninini wrote: Noone is born without empathy. A person who seems to have no empathy have just rejected those thoughts. Of course this is easier to do for some, but there is no such thing as a person who has no feelings. There are many environmental causes which could make it tempting to reject empathy, and I think it's more common than ppl think. The reason why this case is so rare is because she's part of two extreme categories, since she also have a obsession about killing things. I mean, just because you reject empathy doesn't mean that you want to kill others. Maybe if you had something to gain from it, but not completely mindlessly like in this case.
It's pretty obvious that the step-father had some influence here.
That's a rather simplistic view. How do you know none is born without empathy?
Empathy goes hand to hand with spirituality. If you reject your sense of spirituality, you reject your ability to feel empathy.
So, you are making a statement that has no basis in facts As an atheist, who does not believe in anything supernatural, I reject your statement as absurd.
But I empathize with your need to make a case for religious people like yourself being superior to others
Just kidding
But i think that the existence of humanism disproves your point.
Religion is just one way of being spiritual. Whether God exists or not doesn't matter. At the very least, Christ was a good role-model. If you think that religion is all bad, then you know nothing about religion, plus it was not even a important part of my point. I just felt like I needed to point out how he got more spiritual or it wouldn't have made as much sense.
Spirituality just means that you're in tune with your emotions. A person with no spirituality is someone who listens entirely on logic. They reject their feelings for logic. We all have those tendencies to some extent, but my point is that it's possible to become more spiritual and less logical, and it's possible to go in the opposite direction as well. Empathy doesn't exist in the logical brain and that's why ppl who have rejected their spirituality tends to show no signs of empathy. Please note that spirituality goes beyond believing in God. All honest relationships counts as spirituality, including the relationship towards your own well-being.
Firstly, this has nothing to do with "spirituality" or religion, this is about sexual pleasure. From the OP:
Samples of her notes were graphic. In one she said: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good." In another: " I was born to be a murderer. Killing for me is a mass turn-on and it just makes me so high I never want to come down. Every night I see the Devil in my dreams - sometimes even in my mirror, but I realise it was just me."
Secondly, I don't like how you've hijacked the definition of spirituality to include any honest relationship, including with yourself. I'm an atheist and I'm not spiritual in any way under a conventional definition of spirituality. This woman has a honest relationship with herself, she is sexually stimulated by killing and she knows it. That's honesty -- and "spirituality".
Addiction has nothing to do with spirituality. Spirituality is our connection to the bigger meaning. Love and friendship fall under the spiritual realm. Killing or abusing ppl is the opposite of spirituality, because you're rejecting a potential God, and you're rejecting a meaningful relationship with the victim.
The fundamental part of being a Christian is that you are pursuing a honest relationship with God and Jesus. It's the same as a earthly father and son relationship.
You might have heard: "Whatever you did unto one of the least, you did unto me." What does that mean? It means that we are all a part of a big entity: God, and it means that any honest friendship you form with a human being, you also form with God. It also means that when you're forming a relationship with God, you're forming a relationship with all the people on this planet. How, you might ask? By allowing his light to shine through you, so that you can more easily help ppl and form relationships with them. Secular moralism works similarly and so does shamanism. I don't think it's that far-fetched to define it all as spirituality. The goals and the purpose of the actions are the same, it's just a question of whether you serve the lord, a spirit or "humanity".
"Secular spirituality emphasizes humanistic qualities such as love, compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, responsibility, harmony, and a concern for others[2]:22, aspects of life and human experience which go beyond a purely materialist view of the world, without necessarily accepting belief in a supernatural reality or divine being."
Several studies have shown that violent children are a product of violence being done to them or to someone close to them at a very young age. Biology is nothing outside of environment, it is the primary adaptive programming tool used to nature to help animals adapt/prepare for their surroundings.
I feel sorry for her and wonder what the real story is, she may have been born this way as far as a Nazi is "born that way" under a Fuhrer or a muslim is "born that way" into an Islamic environment.
On February 05 2012 00:34 TRod wrote: Several studies have shown that violent children are a product of violence being done to them or to someone close to them at a very young age. Biology is nothing outside of environment, it is the primary adaptive programming tool used to nature to help animals adapt/prepare for their surroundings.
I feel sorry for her and wonder what the real story is, she may have been born this way as far as a Nazi is "born that way" under a Fuhrer or a muslim is "born that way" into an Islamic environment.
A few of us suggested this awhile back in the thread, the sad thing is with how far gone this girl is, we may never know what horrible things may have happened to her as a youth (they give a brief description in the article, but if that's what they know about, imagine what they don't).
I don't think she mighthave been abused, I know she was, the extent of it is up for question, but nobody becomes like this on their own, she is repeating what she has learned over her life, and we know that whatever she is repeating is FUCKED UP.
If only murderers would murder themselves more often.. so many of these "killers" are a financial drain on the system (being locked up for life, wasting court time, ect.)
If they truly get pleasure from killing, perhaps someone should suggest that they kill themselves and do a favor for us regular folks. Frustrating to see someone so fucked up destroy so much that they will never understand.
This story is disgusting. But I guess some people really are just born killers. Surprising that she was only 12 years old and that such a young girl actually did those things. I feel sorry for the victims.
Idk how anybody could treat other lives like this girl did without feeling any bit of grief. Decapitating a dog's head with a spade ffs. That's terrible.
On February 04 2012 19:42 Snow Goose wrote: sucks for her most really, would be what seems completely natural to her and she is gonna be in a pysch ward for the rest of her life because of it
u fucking suck if u feel bad for her
R U 4 RELLA? Now, let's use the big words, you would suck if you didn't. She is sick, and any sick person deserves pity, no matter their actions.
You are a good person. Evil people live by a different set of rules than you and I, you cannot show pity on a person that is obviously pure evil by nature, it was nothing to do with sickness. You should put these people away or they should be put to death. Brutal, but that's just the way it is, regardless of "age".
She enjoys killing. She likes it. And she most certainly seems to be intelligent enough to understand the consequences of her action both short and long sighted...
Dang, she sounds like she came straight from a deranged work of fiction. So much that her diary even sounds poetic in a sadistic, lunatic kind of way She is clearly unstable and should be put in a mental institute. If she can't function in society, she must be reformed.
On March 08 2012 03:39 Sbrubbles wrote: Dang, she sounds like she came straight from a deranged work of fiction. So much that her diary even sounds poetic in a sadistic, lunatic kind of way She is clearly unstable and should be put in a mental institute. If she can't function in society, she must be reformed.
On February 04 2012 22:01 InFdude wrote: Elfen Lied.
I can't emphasize enough how much this reminds me of Elfen Lied. The fact that this girl apparently wouldn't have been able to move the body of her victim just reinforces it.
Samples of her notes were graphic. In one she said: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good." In another: " I was born to be a murderer. Killing for me is a mass turn-on and it just makes me so high I never want to come down. Every night I see the Devil in my dreams - sometimes even in my mirror, but I realise it was just me."
Four years after the murder, a diary entry stated: " I bring the knife into her chest. Her eyes are closing. She is pleading with me so I bring the knife to her again and again. I don't want to hurt her but I need to do violence to her ... I need to overcome her beauty, her serenity, her security. There I see her face when she died. I know she feels her life being slowly drawn from her and I hear her gasp. I guess she was trying to breathe.
"The air stops in the back of her throat. I know all her life her breathing has worked, but it does not now. And I am joyful".
I'm not sure what to think of it but this really does not look like the writing of a 12 year old girl to me, assuming she did write it herself I'm guessing she must have been very influenced by something else like a movie, a tv series or a book.
Samples of her notes were graphic. In one she said: " I am a killer. Killing is my business - and business is good." In another: " I was born to be a murderer. Killing for me is a mass turn-on and it just makes me so high I never want to come down. Every night I see the Devil in my dreams - sometimes even in my mirror, but I realise it was just me."
Four years after the murder, a diary entry stated: " I bring the knife into her chest. Her eyes are closing. She is pleading with me so I bring the knife to her again and again. I don't want to hurt her but I need to do violence to her ... I need to overcome her beauty, her serenity, her security. There I see her face when she died. I know she feels her life being slowly drawn from her and I hear her gasp. I guess she was trying to breathe.
"The air stops in the back of her throat. I know all her life her breathing has worked, but it does not now. And I am joyful".
I'm not sure what to think of it but this really does not look like the writing of a 12 year old girl to me, assuming she did write it herself I'm guessing she must have been very influenced by something else like a movie, a tv series or a book.
There is a correlation between killers and their intellectual capacity. Serial killers or people who are mentally bonkers for some reason are known to be incredibly intelligent/cunning/smart (however you wanna put it).
Thats why whenever a person is prosecuted of torturing animals (usually the first tell sign of a serial killer) they usually immediately condemn them to a mental institution and try to help him since they know if he or she got loose...well they are gonna be a loose cannon.
On September 21 2012 05:13 jonathanshaw wrote: does anyone has a picture of sharon carr? im planing to do a video about the murder.
Do you think people have random pictures of Sharon Carr on file? They'd google just like youd do if we didn't find it.
Best bump of 2012? I think so. Kind of ontopic, the leader of the American NAZI party (guy got 31% vote in town for mayor) was killed by his 10 year old son, point blank gunshot to the face on purpose). Kindaaa crazy!!
EPT
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