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I have nothing against the police being called in to remove protesters, if the university deems it to be unsafe, then that's an administrative problem. However, pepper spray was completely uncalled for as a method to detain non-violent protesters.
Acceptable -> ganging up and removing protesters one-by-one by hand, a few bruises here and there, but eventually everybody gets removed and you keep a good reputation. Only if somebody actually threatens/attacks a police officer do you have a case for using pepper spray.
This just seemed to me like one of the officers wanted to take an easy route out and just incapacitate every protester so he could go home rather than expend time and energy removing them in an appropriate fashion. Definitely a case of extremely excessive force.
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Im curious who made the call on the use of pepper spray. Was it a cop on the scene.. was it authorized in their briefing... was there even a briefing for these cops? what i saw was cops trying to do their job.. get surrounded and yelled at, let the pressure get to them and make a bad decision. I dont know how escalation of force works w/ police but im sure they have a order they have to go by. Im thinking they either dont have one or they failed to follow it. Besides what is lawfully right (being what they were briefed was allowed/not allowed and escalation of force) morally i feel that if the cop gave you clear warning on what was gonna happen if you didnt move, then its all good if there's no permanent damage. excessive force yea but i see it like slightly overstepping a boundry not extreme police brutality! Like velr said, the best way would be to drag them apart and arrest them for the night or something like that... . Personally if a cop told me to move or get sprayed, whether i thought he was right or not, i would fuckin move and if i stayed there and got sprayed i personally would be thinking shit that was a dumb move later on.
Also looks like some of the students after being sprayed still were being resistant so to me its like well shit the pepper spray wasnt convincing enough i guess on the other hand holy shit those protesters have some fighting spirit in em :O
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damn, that tuition hike is pretty crazy
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On November 22 2011 18:09 bassa wrote:Im curious who made the call on the use of pepper spray. Was it a cop on the scene.. was it authorized in their briefing... was there even a briefing for these cops? what i saw was cops trying to do their job.. get surrounded and yelled at, let the pressure get to them and make a bad decision. I dont know how escalation of force works w/ police but im sure they have a order they have to go by. Im thinking they either dont have one or they failed to follow it. Besides what is lawfully right (being what they were briefed was allowed/not allowed and escalation of force) morally i feel that if the cop gave you clear warning on what was gonna happen if you didnt move, then its all good if there's no permanent damage. excessive force yea but i see it like slightly overstepping a boundry not extreme police brutality! Like velr said, the best way would be to . Personally if a cop told me to move or get sprayed, whether i thought he was right or not, i would fuckin move and if i stayed there and got sprayed i personally would be thinking shit that was a dumb move later on. Also looks like some of the students after being sprayed still were being resistant so to me its like well shit the pepper spray wasnt convincing enough i guess on the other hand holy shit those protesters have some fighting spirit in em :O
First of all, I do not think it is legal or at least I hope to go it is not legal for police to mace people for not complying with orders. Giving a warning that you are doing something you shouldn't have done doesn't really makes your action any more justifiable. By your logic, it would be totally okay to start clubbing, tazing, or even shooting would totally be okay as long as the police gives the protester a warning first.
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It's against the law to use pepper spray or mace on anyone who aren't threatening police or the public.
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why dont they were goggles and somethings over their mouths?
have they not seen the numerous time cops have used pepper spray lol
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On November 22 2011 18:28 Corrosive wrote:
It's against the law to use pepper spray or mace on anyone who aren't threatening police or the public.
Police are above the law in the United States, unless they do something so bad that they get national media attention.
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protesting is important in our democracy. it is important that people speak their minds. the problem is is, in 99,9% of protest only around 5 people know why are they protesting and the others just join to party. if protesting for a reason, make sure you can back it up, with arguments on a table, not by sitting down armlocked.
just move hippie, or get sprayed.
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On November 22 2011 18:52 centinel4 wrote:
protesting is important in our democracy. it is important that people speak their minds. the problem is is, in 99,9% of protest only around 5 people know why are they protesting and the others just join to party. if protesting for a reason, make sure you can back it up, with arguments on a table, not by sitting down armlocked.
just move hippie, or get sprayed.
They arm locked after being threatened to be removed..
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talk about first world problems "the whole world is watching" this is really embarassing to watch lol. they all look very well off to me. if they want to make a difference they should be focusing their efforts on less fortunate comunities imo. not that i help anyone beyond my direct social life.
there are plenty of other universities that are less then 1/4 the price of this university, and i doubt anyone in that crowd wont be able to make the same money by going to a different uni ( yes made up statistic but in my experience it holds true).
also i cant speak for america but in australia you can take a loan out from the bank for uni and you only pay for every year you attend. its a good investment because once you leave uni if u did a decent corse then you will be on more then enough to pay off your loan within the first 1-3 years. (hard parts getting a job but thats got nothing to do with my point)
these hipsters make me mad
edit: my dad just made a good point about how stupid the police are for pepperspraying them ( im pro peepper spray for this)
his point was that by using pepper spray on the kids the kids efffectivly won this battle gaining amazing publicity.
it pains me to hear it but he's right. i these hipsters
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On November 22 2011 19:08 Turbogangsta wrote:
talk about first world problems "the whole world is watching" this is really embarassing to watch lol. they all look very well off to me. if they want to make a difference they should be focusing their efforts on less fortunate comunities imo. not that i help anyone beyond my direct social life.
there are plenty of other universities that are less then 1/4 the price of this university, and i doubt anyone in that crowd wont be able to make the same money by going to a different uni ( yes made up statistic but in my experience it holds true).
also i cant speak for america but in australia you can take a loan out from the bank for uni and you only pay for every year you attend. its a good investment because once you leave uni if u did a decent corse then you will be on more then enough to pay off your loan within the first 1-3 years. (hard parts getting a job but thats got nothing to do with my point)
these hipsters make me mad
Once again, who give a shit what they are protesting about. They could be protesting about how hard their class is for all I care. The problem is not what they are protesting about, but how the police react to peaceful protester. Your personal belief and weather you agree with what they are protesting about doesn't make the police action any less reprehensible.
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On November 22 2011 19:12 Yamoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 19:08 Turbogangsta wrote:+ Show Spoiler +talk about first world problems "the whole world is watching" this is really embarassing to watch lol. they all look very well off to me. if they want to make a difference they should be focusing their efforts on less fortunate comunities imo. not that i help anyone beyond my direct social life.
there are plenty of other universities that are less then 1/4 the price of this university, and i doubt anyone in that crowd wont be able to make the same money by going to a different uni ( yes made up statistic but in my experience it holds true).
also i cant speak for america but in australia you can take a loan out from the bank for uni and you only pay for every year you attend. its a good investment because once you leave uni if u did a decent corse then you will be on more then enough to pay off your loan within the first 1-3 years. (hard parts getting a job but thats got nothing to do with my point)
these hipsters make me mad Once again, who give a shit what they are protesting about. They could be protesting about how hard their class is for all I care. The problem is not what they are protesting about, but how the police react to peaceful protester. Your personal belief and weather you agree with what they are protesting about doesn't make the police action any less reprehensible.
edit: my original point wassnt about justifying it either but about how embarasing these people are
dw i dont know enough about what happened
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On November 22 2011 19:25 Turbogangsta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 19:12 Yamoth wrote:On November 22 2011 19:08 Turbogangsta wrote:+ Show Spoiler +talk about first world problems "the whole world is watching" this is really embarassing to watch lol. they all look very well off to me. if they want to make a difference they should be focusing their efforts on less fortunate comunities imo. not that i help anyone beyond my direct social life.
there are plenty of other universities that are less then 1/4 the price of this university, and i doubt anyone in that crowd wont be able to make the same money by going to a different uni ( yes made up statistic but in my experience it holds true).
also i cant speak for america but in australia you can take a loan out from the bank for uni and you only pay for every year you attend. its a good investment because once you leave uni if u did a decent corse then you will be on more then enough to pay off your loan within the first 1-3 years. (hard parts getting a job but thats got nothing to do with my point)
these hipsters make me mad Once again, who give a shit what they are protesting about. They could be protesting about how hard their class is for all I care. The problem is not what they are protesting about, but how the police react to peaceful protester. Your personal belief and weather you agree with what they are protesting about doesn't make the police action any less reprehensible. idk the law but is it peaceful to sit in the middle of a cerimonial thingy and scream and yell over the speakers? i wouldve thought pepper spray would be justified if they are interupting an event because they didnt like it. what if a bunch of protestors sat "peacefully" across the road of a matigra edit: my original point wassnt about justifying it either but about how embarasing these people are
First of all, pepper spray would not be justified if a person was being disruptive or interrupting and even. The correct course of action there would to remove those people from the even like you see when PETA running into a fur coat department store screaming, "fur is murder". I don't really know how fucked up the law are in Australia, but in the U.S., pepper stay was meant to only be use to disable people who might cause harm to the officer, the general public, or to themselves. Pepper spray is a tool to defuse a potential volatile situation, not as a form of discipline someone.
Edit to Turbo edit.
Seriously? Your dad problem with the entire pepper spray fiasco was the by doing so, the protester got the public opinion on their side? That is like me saying I shouldn't poison my co-worker lunch cause how he gets to stay home and I don't.
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I'm a cop in the military, and while we do have slightly different work ethics, we would never ever be given authorization to enforce pepper spray upon a group of peaceful protestors, i PROMISE. This is most definitely a case of unreasonable force. There is a Use of Force Model, in which you try to de-escelate situations and if the situation escelates, you adjust the amount of force you apply. ie: If someone is being compliant, you simply talk to them as well. if someone is ignoring youre vocal commands, you use contact controls (you detain them). While these group of people may have been asking to be arrested, they were never posing a threat for a police officer to use a self-defense mechanism (pepper spray) and while they may have had batons and riot shields as well (some people are complaining they would take those to a peaceful protest) they are definitely warranted to have them. 1000 students vs. 25 cops isn't a battle the cops will win. However, most riot gear is more for deterrence, not employment - in the best case scenario. This protest never got out of hand, it was a bunch of silly college kids yelling.
Those of you who defend the cops (i'm a cop - so you would think i would) are very silly to do so. The cops had absolutely no right employing the amount of force they did in this situation. It's a shame, it really puts a bad light on police officers and the work they do to help the public, save lives, and stop the bad people out there. Just like everything though, you have bad apples. and to be honest, this riot team seems to be lacking training big time, they either never experience protesting or they just don't train very well, most of what they're doing isn't right in the slightest, and they could have easily been overrun.
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On November 22 2011 19:08 Turbogangsta wrote:
talk about first world problems "the whole world is watching" this is really embarassing to watch lol. they all look very well off to me. if they want to make a difference they should be focusing their efforts on less fortunate comunities imo. not that i help anyone beyond my direct social life.
there are plenty of other universities that are less then 1/4 the price of this university, and i doubt anyone in that crowd wont be able to make the same money by going to a different uni ( yes made up statistic but in my experience it holds true).
also i cant speak for america but in australia you can take a loan out from the bank for uni and you only pay for every year you attend. its a good investment because once you leave uni if u did a decent corse then you will be on more then enough to pay off your loan within the first 1-3 years. (hard parts getting a job but thats got nothing to do with my point)
these hipsters make me mad
edit: my dad just made a good point about how stupid the police are for pepperspraying them ( im pro peepper spray for this)
his point was that by using pepper spray on the kids the kids efffectivly won this battle gaining amazing publicity.
it pains me to hear it but he's right. i these hipsters
There is a huge difference in the cost and payment method of tuition fees around the world. Being an Australian, you probably pay less than $10,000 a year in fees and you can use the Higher Education Loan Programme (HELP) which interest free (although subject to inflation indexation) to pay for your education. You also start paying off the HELP loan when you income crosses a certain threshold and I believe you even get a tax deduction on your repayment. Universities in Australia are also generally 3 year courses which means you total debt at the end is less than $30,000.
Compare this to the proposed $22,000 per year fee for a 4 year course which adds up to $88,000 at the end and I believe interest starts the moment you graduate, you will realize that Australians have it easy.
I am from Singapore and currently studying in Australia, formerly studied in Singapore and I can tell you that fees in Singapore are similar to Australia, slightly lower due to exchange rate but equalized by 4 year course instead of 3. Interest starts the year you graduate and are usually 4% p/a.
In Singapore, a fresh graduate gets around $35,000 a year while in Australia, $50,000 is what my friends are getting. Not sure about how much Americans make but with that horrible economy, they would be lucky if get a job at Macdonalds much less a proper one paying decently. The general feeling even in Singapore is that fees are beyond reasonable and people are having problems paying the fees. Australia has the mineral industry to turn to and if you cannot find a decent job, you do not have to worry much about your university fees. The protest of the insane 82% fee hike is totally reasonable and I understand how those students feel. It is hard to understand their feelings if you are not in their position and to generalize that they are hippies who only care for themselves is pretty insensitive on your part.
On the issue of police brutality, even though I am from a country where police have the right to arrest and detain you (indefinitely) without pressing charges, I feel that a certain line has been crossed here. If pepper spraying peaceful students sitting on the ground is acceptable police methods, does that mean rubber bullets or even live ammo for marching around the city? Even if the police are allowed to do what they did, the arrogance of the policeman who sprayed the students is totally disgusting. Just because you have the power to pepper spray someone does not mean you have to show the can of spray to everyone and spray multiple times on the students.
The legal system in most countries is setup such that you are innocent until proven guilty. The duty of the police is the arrest the suspect and the court will decide if the suspect is guilty or not and decide on the punishment. By saying the students are guilty without a proper trial is a miscarriage of justice and if we allow the police to decide what kind of punishment is suitable, isn't that judge, jury and executioner all rolled into one? The police should have power, but in this case, they seem to think they have absolute power. Quoting British historian Lord Acton (1834-1902) 'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'.
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So what were the students with locked arms in the way of?
If they were interupting something what actions had been taken by the police officers before spraying and how long were they obstructing?
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On November 22 2011 20:56 Turbogangsta wrote:
So what were the students with locked arms in the way of?
If they were interupting something what actions had been taken by the police officers before spraying and how long were they obstructing?
According to some of the UC-Davis students who posted in the thread, they were not obstructing anything or anyone (maybe the police?) I believe the police warned them verbally and did nothing physically to try and separate the students before they started spraying.
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On November 22 2011 21:03 Terrik wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 20:56 Turbogangsta wrote:
So what were the students with locked arms in the way of?
If they were interupting something what actions had been taken by the police officers before spraying and how long were they obstructing? According to some of the UC-Davis students who posted in the thread, they were not obstructing anything or anyone (maybe the police?) I believe the police warned them verbally and did nothing physically to try and separate the students before they started spraying.
ah ok maybe these posts should be linked to in OP
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Pretty disgusting. I'm not much of the protesting type but this seems a gross misuse of force. There is absolutely no need to use pepper spray against a completely nonviolent crowd. Sure a huge crowd of people yelling can be intimidating, but that is what police are paid for. That is why they have good equipment and have pepper spray to use if NECESSARY. If students started charging down the police and then were pepper sprayed I wouldn't object to it in the slightest. However that did not happen. What did happen was unreasonable, outrageous, and potentially criminal.
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A lot of poorly informed and, frankly, frightening opinions about what constitutes an appropriate use of force when a person is in violation of the law are floating around in this thread.
I believe the actions performed by the police in this instance were wrong, and my heart goes out to the protesting UCD students. I am posting primarily in solidarity with them.
The UC-wide proposed tuition hikes are absurd, and, beyond condemning this police action, I believe the students have a righteous cause. To degrade them by calling them "whiny", "hippies", "hipsters", or anything of that nature diminishes the quality of the discussion.
On a related note, I am kind of shocked at the sheer amounts of drivel moderators are allowing to pass in this thread. This thread surprised me with the kind of content permissible on Team Liquid, as the mods typically perform their work both justly and diligently. In fact, it is part of why I love this site.
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EPT
