On December 01 2012 04:54 NicolBolas wrote: That I don't buy. Israel has done enough bad acting in this war to make me suspicious of any "higher aspirations" they might have. Their opposition of Palestinian statehood being a prime example.
There is no reason for them to oppose statehood other than their own personal self-interest. They don't want the Palestinians to be able to come to the bargaining table as equals or even slightly more equally. They want to force the Palestinians to do everything exactly as they want.
Israel ceded the moral high ground long ago. To me, the only difference between the two is which one has the bigger army.
To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...?
Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight.
What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower.
Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game?
You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
isreal is targeting palastine infrastrucete for decades under facade of stoping terrorist action. burden of proof does not fall on me it falls on israel. never once preoper investigations were allowed or proper proof was given by isreal on reasons of this attacks. we had times isreal razing down structures with bulldozers, with reasons of self defence. I dont buy it, NOONE buys it.
People that arn't horribly biased against Isreal buy it. People trust an organization that has shown to be trustworthy about these thing and have punished those that weren't trustworthy about what they said they were doing.
On December 02 2012 04:31 sc2superfan101 wrote: just in case you try the "the charter is outdated!" argument:
Hamas official Ahmad Bahr:
Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.
Hamas Immam Yousif al-Zahar:
Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing.
Hamas legislator and Imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal:
Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews
Yousif al-Zahar:
Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue.
Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras
The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them...Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times... They slayed the prophets, and so on...Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it.
Hamas statement about a Holocaust conference:
This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests.
(of course even Hamas can't get it straight whether they hate Jews or Zionists or both)
Now do the same for the Likud charter - the right wing party that has led Israel or had a major influence in the Knesset throughout the entire existence of the country.
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."
Does not really sound like they are very interested in a bistate peaceful solution either.
I wonder why they aren't interested in a peaceful bi-state solution with a government that purportedly wants the majority of their population to be cleansed?
1) The Hamas is not the only government of the palestinians - Abbas is in charge of the West bank, and the UN-decision made his position stronger whilst weakening that of the Hamas. 2) You do realise that your argument goes the other way as well? And that is the biggest hurdle in any negotiations between the 2 parts. Neither wants to recognize the others claim because the other side does not recognize theirs.
EDIT: Forgot a couple of words in point 1, and have added them to make it factually correct.
On December 02 2012 04:31 sc2superfan101 wrote: just in case you try the "the charter is outdated!" argument:
Hamas official Ahmad Bahr:
Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.
Hamas Immam Yousif al-Zahar:
Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing.
Hamas legislator and Imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal:
Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews
Yousif al-Zahar:
Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue.
Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras
The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them...Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times... They slayed the prophets, and so on...Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it.
Hamas statement about a Holocaust conference:
This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests.
(of course even Hamas can't get it straight whether they hate Jews or Zionists or both)
Now do the same for the Likud charter - the right wing party that has led Israel or had a major influence in the Knesset throughout the entire existence of the country.
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."
Does not really sound like they are very interested in a bistate peaceful solution either.
I wonder why they aren't interested in a peaceful bi-state solution with a government that purportedly wants the majority of their population to be cleansed?
Hm..maybe Hamas wants the majority of their population cleansed as a response to things they heard from Likud? What was before egg or chicken?
On December 01 2012 04:54 NicolBolas wrote: That I don't buy. Israel has done enough bad acting in this war to make me suspicious of any "higher aspirations" they might have. Their opposition of Palestinian statehood being a prime example.
There is no reason for them to oppose statehood other than their own personal self-interest. They don't want the Palestinians to be able to come to the bargaining table as equals or even slightly more equally. They want to force the Palestinians to do everything exactly as they want.
Israel ceded the moral high ground long ago. To me, the only difference between the two is which one has the bigger army.
To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...?
Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight.
What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower.
Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game?
You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
On December 02 2012 04:31 sc2superfan101 wrote: just in case you try the "the charter is outdated!" argument:
Hamas official Ahmad Bahr:
Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.
Hamas Immam Yousif al-Zahar:
Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing.
Hamas legislator and Imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal:
Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews
Yousif al-Zahar:
Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue.
Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras
The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them...Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times... They slayed the prophets, and so on...Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it.
Hamas statement about a Holocaust conference:
This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests.
(of course even Hamas can't get it straight whether they hate Jews or Zionists or both)
Now do the same for the Likud charter - the right wing party that has led Israel or had a major influence in the Knesset throughout the entire existence of the country.
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."
Does not really sound like they are very interested in a bistate peaceful solution either.
I wonder why they aren't interested in a peaceful bi-state solution with a government that purportedly wants the majority of their population to be cleansed?
Hm..maybe Hamas wants the majority of their population cleansed as a response to things they heard from Likud? What was before egg or chicken?
On December 01 2012 04:54 NicolBolas wrote: That I don't buy. Israel has done enough bad acting in this war to make me suspicious of any "higher aspirations" they might have. Their opposition of Palestinian statehood being a prime example.
There is no reason for them to oppose statehood other than their own personal self-interest. They don't want the Palestinians to be able to come to the bargaining table as equals or even slightly more equally. They want to force the Palestinians to do everything exactly as they want.
Israel ceded the moral high ground long ago. To me, the only difference between the two is which one has the bigger army.
To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...?
Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight.
What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower.
Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game?
You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
The point was he was making baseless claims that if were true would show that Israel has no qualms doing this.
On December 01 2012 04:54 NicolBolas wrote: That I don't buy. Israel has done enough bad acting in this war to make me suspicious of any "higher aspirations" they might have. Their opposition of Palestinian statehood being a prime example.
There is no reason for them to oppose statehood other than their own personal self-interest. They don't want the Palestinians to be able to come to the bargaining table as equals or even slightly more equally. They want to force the Palestinians to do everything exactly as they want.
Israel ceded the moral high ground long ago. To me, the only difference between the two is which one has the bigger army.
To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...?
Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight.
What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower.
Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game?
You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
The point was he was making baseless claims that if were true would show that Israel has no qualms doing this.
Doesnt matter. You can't raze a hospital (hypothetically) to the ground under a justification that Hamas was hiding in it. Moreover the surgical operations your country likes to boast about isn't really surgical. Just like the killing of Jabari. Israel has the means to eliminate to whole Hamas leadership without any collateral damage and that would truly be a surgical operation and eliminate the obstacle to peace in Israel's eyes.
On December 01 2012 04:54 NicolBolas wrote: That I don't buy. Israel has done enough bad acting in this war to make me suspicious of any "higher aspirations" they might have. Their opposition of Palestinian statehood being a prime example.
There is no reason for them to oppose statehood other than their own personal self-interest. They don't want the Palestinians to be able to come to the bargaining table as equals or even slightly more equally. They want to force the Palestinians to do everything exactly as they want.
Israel ceded the moral high ground long ago. To me, the only difference between the two is which one has the bigger army.
To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...?
Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight.
What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower.
Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game?
You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
The point was he was making baseless claims that if were true would show that Israel has no qualms doing this.
The report disputes Israel's claim that the Gaza war would have been conducted as a response to rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, saying that at least in part the war was targeted against the "people of Gaza as a whole". Intimidation against the population was seen as an aim of the war. The report also says that Israel's military assault on Gaza was designed to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability". The report focused on 36 cases that it said constituted a representative sample. In 11 of these episodes, it said the Israeli military carried out direct attacks against civilians, including some in which civilians were shot "while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags". Talking to Bill Moyers Journal, Goldstone said that the committee chose 36 incidents that represented the highest death toll, where there seemed to be little or no military justification for what happened. According to the report, another alleged war crime committed by IDF include "wanton" destruction of food production, water and sewerage facilities; the report also asserts that some attacks, which were supposedly aimed to kill small number of combatants amidst significant numbers of civilians, were disproportionate. The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations. The report recommended, inter alia, that Israel pay reparations to Palestinians living in Gaza for property damage caused during the conflict.
No we dont, the reason Jabri was eliminated was due to good inelegance. Once he was targeted the rest went in to hiding and the only way to reach them without raising entire blocks with people in them would be a ground assault. Even if we were to kill all of the Hamas this wouldn't bring peace, only way to achieve peace is by having negotiations with those who accept your right to exist.
On December 02 2012 05:39 Goozen wrote: No we dont, the reason Jabri was eliminated was due to good inelegance. Once he was targeted the rest went in to hiding and the only way to reach them without raising entire blocks with people in them would be a ground assault. Even if we were to kill all of the Hamas this wouldn't bring peace, only way to achieve peace is by having negotiations with those who accept your right to exist.
But if you eliminate hamas you eliminate those who do not want to accept your right to exist and then you can negotiate with the rest, no? Or are there others who do not want to negotiate, could you name them?
And yes you have the means. Mossad is quite an expert in doing it.
On December 01 2012 04:54 NicolBolas wrote: That I don't buy. Israel has done enough bad acting in this war to make me suspicious of any "higher aspirations" they might have. Their opposition of Palestinian statehood being a prime example.
There is no reason for them to oppose statehood other than their own personal self-interest. They don't want the Palestinians to be able to come to the bargaining table as equals or even slightly more equally. They want to force the Palestinians to do everything exactly as they want.
Israel ceded the moral high ground long ago. To me, the only difference between the two is which one has the bigger army.
To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...?
Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight.
What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower.
Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game?
You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
The point was he was making baseless claims that if were true would show that Israel has no qualms doing this.
The report disputes Israel's claim that the Gaza war would have been conducted as a response to rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, saying that at least in part the war was targeted against the "people of Gaza as a whole". Intimidation against the population was seen as an aim of the war. The report also says that Israel's military assault on Gaza was designed to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability". The report focused on 36 cases that it said constituted a representative sample. In 11 of these episodes, it said the Israeli military carried out direct attacks against civilians, including some in which civilians were shot "while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags". Talking to Bill Moyers Journal, Goldstone said that the committee chose 36 incidents that represented the highest death toll, where there seemed to be little or no military justification for what happened. According to the report, another alleged war crime committed by IDF include "wanton" destruction of food production, water and sewerage facilities; the report also asserts that some attacks, which were supposedly aimed to kill small number of combatants amidst significant numbers of civilians, were disproportionate. The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations. The report recommended, inter alia, that Israel pay reparations to Palestinians living in Gaza for property damage caused during the conflict.
Now tell me how the UN is pro palestinian.... lol
Hi dog, once again misinterpreting what i said? I said they didnt target hospitals power station and waterworks as policy, but targeting weapon caches. Civilians will die in such conflicts because its a urban area and hamas makes use of it, here is a vid that will show the problem in a nutshell:
On December 02 2012 05:39 Goozen wrote: No we dont, the reason Jabri was eliminated was due to good inelegance. Once he was targeted the rest went in to hiding and the only way to reach them without raising entire blocks with people in them would be a ground assault. Even if we were to kill all of the Hamas this wouldn't bring peace, only way to achieve peace is by having negotiations with those who accept your right to exist.
But if you eliminate hamas you eliminate those who do not want to accept your right to exist and then you can negotiate with the rest, no? Or are there others who do not want to negotiate, could you name them?
And yes you have the means. Mossad is quite an expert in doing it.
While its the Shabak, and not mossad who deal with gaza, you cant always reach all them and there will be more. In order to be peace you need for the PA to unfily the palestinians and accept the right of other to exiest.
On December 01 2012 05:02 SupLilSon wrote: [quote]
To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...?
Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight.
What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower.
Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game?
You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
The point was he was making baseless claims that if were true would show that Israel has no qualms doing this.
The report disputes Israel's claim that the Gaza war would have been conducted as a response to rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, saying that at least in part the war was targeted against the "people of Gaza as a whole". Intimidation against the population was seen as an aim of the war. The report also says that Israel's military assault on Gaza was designed to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability". The report focused on 36 cases that it said constituted a representative sample. In 11 of these episodes, it said the Israeli military carried out direct attacks against civilians, including some in which civilians were shot "while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags". Talking to Bill Moyers Journal, Goldstone said that the committee chose 36 incidents that represented the highest death toll, where there seemed to be little or no military justification for what happened. According to the report, another alleged war crime committed by IDF include "wanton" destruction of food production, water and sewerage facilities; the report also asserts that some attacks, which were supposedly aimed to kill small number of combatants amidst significant numbers of civilians, were disproportionate. The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations. The report recommended, inter alia, that Israel pay reparations to Palestinians living in Gaza for property damage caused during the conflict.
Now tell me how the UN is pro palestinian.... lol
Hi dog, once again misinterpreting what i said? I said they didnt target hospitals power station and waterworks as policy, but targeting weapon caches. Civilians will die in such conflicts because its a urban area and hamas makes use of it, here is a vid that will show the problem in a nutshell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uOug-mN3Tw
Did you read the quote ? It is specified that : the IDF targetted civilians and not fighters, the IDF targetted food production, water and sewerage facilities, in order to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself". Well, the goldstone report suggest that the attacks were design to do that, and not to kill hamas fighters or destroy weapon caches. It is 540 + pages documented and focus on 36 cases with highest death toll and no military justifications.
And yes, you link me a pityfull IDF bullshit video like I predicted. Enlighten yourself.
On December 01 2012 05:33 NicolBolas wrote: [quote]
Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight.
What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower.
Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game?
You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
The point was he was making baseless claims that if were true would show that Israel has no qualms doing this.
The report disputes Israel's claim that the Gaza war would have been conducted as a response to rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, saying that at least in part the war was targeted against the "people of Gaza as a whole". Intimidation against the population was seen as an aim of the war. The report also says that Israel's military assault on Gaza was designed to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability". The report focused on 36 cases that it said constituted a representative sample. In 11 of these episodes, it said the Israeli military carried out direct attacks against civilians, including some in which civilians were shot "while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags". Talking to Bill Moyers Journal, Goldstone said that the committee chose 36 incidents that represented the highest death toll, where there seemed to be little or no military justification for what happened. According to the report, another alleged war crime committed by IDF include "wanton" destruction of food production, water and sewerage facilities; the report also asserts that some attacks, which were supposedly aimed to kill small number of combatants amidst significant numbers of civilians, were disproportionate. The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations. The report recommended, inter alia, that Israel pay reparations to Palestinians living in Gaza for property damage caused during the conflict.
Now tell me how the UN is pro palestinian.... lol
Hi dog, once again misinterpreting what i said? I said they didnt target hospitals power station and waterworks as policy, but targeting weapon caches. Civilians will die in such conflicts because its a urban area and hamas makes use of it, here is a vid that will show the problem in a nutshell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uOug-mN3Tw
Did you read the quote ? It is specified that : the IDF targetted civilians and not fighters, the IDF targetted food production, water and sewerage facilities, in order to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself". Well, the goldstone report suggest that the attacks were design to do that, and not to kill hamas fighters or destroy weapon caches. It is 540 + pages documented and focus on 36 cases with highest death toll and no military justifications.
And yes, you link be a pityfull IDF bullshit video. Enlighten yourself.
So basically the IDF killed civilians by mistake and targetd weapon cache (but the UN says otherwise, clearly they are a pure and unbiased group) and yet the Hamas targeted civilians and used its own population as a human shield, but they are the good guys. right....
On December 02 2012 05:39 Goozen wrote: No we dont, the reason Jabri was eliminated was due to good inelegance. Once he was targeted the rest went in to hiding and the only way to reach them without raising entire blocks with people in them would be a ground assault. Even if we were to kill all of the Hamas this wouldn't bring peace, only way to achieve peace is by having negotiations with those who accept your right to exist.
But if you eliminate hamas you eliminate those who do not want to accept your right to exist and then you can negotiate with the rest, no? Or are there others who do not want to negotiate, could you name them?
And yes you have the means. Mossad is quite an expert in doing it.
While its the Shabak, and not mossad who deal with gaza, you cant always reach all them and there will be more. In order to be peace you need for the PA to unfily the palestinians and accept the right of other to exiest.
Doesn't matter, so you have the means. Arafat and Hariri come to my mind and that's enough to prove that you have the ability. And I am sure that the majority of the Palestinians and the world too would accept peace with 67 border. If Israel truly wanted peace they would've accepted it.
On December 01 2012 05:39 KwarK wrote: [quote] You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
The point was he was making baseless claims that if were true would show that Israel has no qualms doing this.
The report disputes Israel's claim that the Gaza war would have been conducted as a response to rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, saying that at least in part the war was targeted against the "people of Gaza as a whole". Intimidation against the population was seen as an aim of the war. The report also says that Israel's military assault on Gaza was designed to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability". The report focused on 36 cases that it said constituted a representative sample. In 11 of these episodes, it said the Israeli military carried out direct attacks against civilians, including some in which civilians were shot "while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags". Talking to Bill Moyers Journal, Goldstone said that the committee chose 36 incidents that represented the highest death toll, where there seemed to be little or no military justification for what happened. According to the report, another alleged war crime committed by IDF include "wanton" destruction of food production, water and sewerage facilities; the report also asserts that some attacks, which were supposedly aimed to kill small number of combatants amidst significant numbers of civilians, were disproportionate. The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations. The report recommended, inter alia, that Israel pay reparations to Palestinians living in Gaza for property damage caused during the conflict.
Now tell me how the UN is pro palestinian.... lol
Hi dog, once again misinterpreting what i said? I said they didnt target hospitals power station and waterworks as policy, but targeting weapon caches. Civilians will die in such conflicts because its a urban area and hamas makes use of it, here is a vid that will show the problem in a nutshell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uOug-mN3Tw
Did you read the quote ? It is specified that : the IDF targetted civilians and not fighters, the IDF targetted food production, water and sewerage facilities, in order to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself". Well, the goldstone report suggest that the attacks were design to do that, and not to kill hamas fighters or destroy weapon caches. It is 540 + pages documented and focus on 36 cases with highest death toll and no military justifications.
And yes, you link be a pityfull IDF bullshit video. Enlighten yourself.
So basically the IDF killed civilians by mistake and targetd weapon cache (but the UN says otherwise, clearly they are a pure and unbiased group) and yet the Hamas targeted civilians and used its own population as a human shield, but they are the good guys. right....
Are you really THIS blind ? Can't you read my quote ? They didn't killed civilians by mistake, the report specify that it was their goal to target civilians.
The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations.
"systemic and deliberate"
Also give me proof that the Hamas use their population as human shield, it was never proven by non IDF sources. There are some specific event of civilian WILLING to shield Hamas soldiers (like novembre 2006, when women willingly shielded Hamas soldier to get out of a mosque). On the other side, there are proven facts of Israelis soldiers using palestinians as shield. Give me facts, less bullshit.
On December 02 2012 05:39 Goozen wrote: No we dont, the reason Jabri was eliminated was due to good inelegance. Once he was targeted the rest went in to hiding and the only way to reach them without raising entire blocks with people in them would be a ground assault. Even if we were to kill all of the Hamas this wouldn't bring peace, only way to achieve peace is by having negotiations with those who accept your right to exist.
But if you eliminate hamas you eliminate those who do not want to accept your right to exist and then you can negotiate with the rest, no? Or are there others who do not want to negotiate, could you name them?
And yes you have the means. Mossad is quite an expert in doing it.
While its the Shabak, and not mossad who deal with gaza, you cant always reach all them and there will be more. In order to be peace you need for the PA to unfily the palestinians and accept the right of other to exiest.
Doesn't matter, so you have the means. Arafat and Hariri come to my mind and that's enough to prove that you have the ability. And I am sure that the majority of the Palestinians and the world too would accept peace with 67 border. If Israel truly wanted peace they would've accepted it.
Arafat wasn't assassinated. Also i could say if the palestinians truly wanted peace we could have it.
On December 01 2012 19:10 NEEDZMOAR wrote: [quote]
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
The point was he was making baseless claims that if were true would show that Israel has no qualms doing this.
The report disputes Israel's claim that the Gaza war would have been conducted as a response to rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, saying that at least in part the war was targeted against the "people of Gaza as a whole". Intimidation against the population was seen as an aim of the war. The report also says that Israel's military assault on Gaza was designed to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability". The report focused on 36 cases that it said constituted a representative sample. In 11 of these episodes, it said the Israeli military carried out direct attacks against civilians, including some in which civilians were shot "while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags". Talking to Bill Moyers Journal, Goldstone said that the committee chose 36 incidents that represented the highest death toll, where there seemed to be little or no military justification for what happened. According to the report, another alleged war crime committed by IDF include "wanton" destruction of food production, water and sewerage facilities; the report also asserts that some attacks, which were supposedly aimed to kill small number of combatants amidst significant numbers of civilians, were disproportionate. The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations. The report recommended, inter alia, that Israel pay reparations to Palestinians living in Gaza for property damage caused during the conflict.
Now tell me how the UN is pro palestinian.... lol
Hi dog, once again misinterpreting what i said? I said they didnt target hospitals power station and waterworks as policy, but targeting weapon caches. Civilians will die in such conflicts because its a urban area and hamas makes use of it, here is a vid that will show the problem in a nutshell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uOug-mN3Tw
Did you read the quote ? It is specified that : the IDF targetted civilians and not fighters, the IDF targetted food production, water and sewerage facilities, in order to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself". Well, the goldstone report suggest that the attacks were design to do that, and not to kill hamas fighters or destroy weapon caches. It is 540 + pages documented and focus on 36 cases with highest death toll and no military justifications.
And yes, you link be a pityfull IDF bullshit video. Enlighten yourself.
So basically the IDF killed civilians by mistake and targetd weapon cache (but the UN says otherwise, clearly they are a pure and unbiased group) and yet the Hamas targeted civilians and used its own population as a human shield, but they are the good guys. right....
Are you really THIS blind ? Can't you read my quote ? They didn't killed civilians by mistake, the report specify that it was their goal to target civilians.
The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations.$
systemic and deliberate
And are you going to say that the UN is totally unbiased? they have been singled out more times then any single country and most combined yet will you claim that they are the worst global humans rights violate? you opinion is always one sided and your a internet professor, come here study the situation properly and i will give your opinion some weight. If Israels goal was to kill civilians there would be none left. but the population of gaza and the west bank have gone x3-x4 of what it was in 48. And you always ignore the fact the Hamas make full use of it being entrenched in the population and taking full advantage of it.
On December 01 2012 05:39 KwarK wrote: [quote] You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it.
Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
Yeah why not, even tho the hospital is filled with civilians? right? The goal justifies the means.
The point was he was making baseless claims that if were true would show that Israel has no qualms doing this.
The report disputes Israel's claim that the Gaza war would have been conducted as a response to rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, saying that at least in part the war was targeted against the "people of Gaza as a whole". Intimidation against the population was seen as an aim of the war. The report also says that Israel's military assault on Gaza was designed to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability". The report focused on 36 cases that it said constituted a representative sample. In 11 of these episodes, it said the Israeli military carried out direct attacks against civilians, including some in which civilians were shot "while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags". Talking to Bill Moyers Journal, Goldstone said that the committee chose 36 incidents that represented the highest death toll, where there seemed to be little or no military justification for what happened. According to the report, another alleged war crime committed by IDF include "wanton" destruction of food production, water and sewerage facilities; the report also asserts that some attacks, which were supposedly aimed to kill small number of combatants amidst significant numbers of civilians, were disproportionate. The report concluded that Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention by targeting civilians, which it labeled "a grave breach". It also claimed that the violations were "systematic and deliberate", which placed the blame in the first place on those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations. The report recommended, inter alia, that Israel pay reparations to Palestinians living in Gaza for property damage caused during the conflict.
Now tell me how the UN is pro palestinian.... lol
Hi dog, once again misinterpreting what i said? I said they didnt target hospitals power station and waterworks as policy, but targeting weapon caches. Civilians will die in such conflicts because its a urban area and hamas makes use of it, here is a vid that will show the problem in a nutshell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uOug-mN3Tw
Did you read the quote ? It is specified that : the IDF targetted civilians and not fighters, the IDF targetted food production, water and sewerage facilities, in order to "humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself". Well, the goldstone report suggest that the attacks were design to do that, and not to kill hamas fighters or destroy weapon caches. It is 540 + pages documented and focus on 36 cases with highest death toll and no military justifications.
And yes, you link be a pityfull IDF bullshit video. Enlighten yourself.
So basically the IDF killed civilians by mistake and targetd weapon cache (but the UN says otherwise, clearly they are a pure and unbiased group) and yet the Hamas targeted civilians and used its own population as a human shield, but they are the good guys. right....
Who said that IDF killed civilians by mistake. Just because they say it that doesn't make it true, now does it? And this human shield talk is blown out of proportion. They can either go outside the cities and be seen from the moon or hide among the buildings hoping for the better. And are you aware that these Hamas fighters are trying to protect their families, so purposely hiding among their own family is stupid. Take for example Syria just because FSA is battling the regime in the cities, does it mean that they are hiding behind the people? Not to mention that the majority of the sources claiming it are pro-Israel.
And let's define this human shield thing: ''Human shield is a military and political term describing the deliberate placement of civilians in or around combat targets to deter an enemy from attacking those targets''. So the emphasis is on the attacker. If he attacks he deliberately killed civilians, because he knew it beforehand. That doesn't make Israel any better in thhe human shield story
On December 02 2012 05:39 Goozen wrote: No we dont, the reason Jabri was eliminated was due to good inelegance. Once he was targeted the rest went in to hiding and the only way to reach them without raising entire blocks with people in them would be a ground assault. Even if we were to kill all of the Hamas this wouldn't bring peace, only way to achieve peace is by having negotiations with those who accept your right to exist.
But if you eliminate hamas you eliminate those who do not want to accept your right to exist and then you can negotiate with the rest, no? Or are there others who do not want to negotiate, could you name them?
And yes you have the means. Mossad is quite an expert in doing it.
While its the Shabak, and not mossad who deal with gaza, you cant always reach all them and there will be more. In order to be peace you need for the PA to unfily the palestinians and accept the right of other to exiest.
Doesn't matter, so you have the means. Arafat and Hariri come to my mind and that's enough to prove that you have the ability. And I am sure that the majority of the Palestinians and the world too would accept peace with 67 border. If Israel truly wanted peace they would've accepted it.
Arafat wasn't assassinated. Also i could say if the palestinians truly wanted peace we could have it.
Haha, at the expense of Palestinians losing all their land, of course!
EPT
