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Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne |
On December 02 2012 04:15 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:11 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:06 Goozen wrote:On December 02 2012 03:59 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:55 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:52 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:48 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you're missing the point here. I'm not condoning anyone's actions, not right now; I'm just shedding some light on the fact that there have been over ten thousand rockets fired into Israel from over their border.
ask the boy whose sister was killed while shielding him from a rocket attack if there is any difference to him between the two. I am against suffering from both sides, and just want to make you realize that what Israel is doing isn't really legal nor 'good'. I can continue the trend and say to you to ask all those who died because of IDF. But it's obvious that Hamas isn't an angel here, it is also obvious that they came to power not because Palestinians are Vandals, but because they had no other choice. You know some people prefer dignity over living like a slave. what Israel is doing is largely legal, with some exceptions. and the Palestinians have had other choices all along, and still do have other choices. launching rockets at children from densely populated areas, without the consent of the people whose homes you are launching them from, is dignified? who knew... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-schweber/israel-in-gaza-three-wron_b_156801.htmlRead this link. Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? Huffington post is known as extremely biased in this subject and is not what i would regard as reliable source. If you want a example there was a claim made by them that there are jew only roads (cant find the source article but it is cited here) Well aljazeeraH is definitely more reliable than Huffington. Way to go, sir He said that aljazeera cited a huffinton post source for their claim of jew only roads.
I am saying that Aljazeerah is not the same as Aljazeera.
The main stream media here is very factually accurate because of the shitstorm that happens globally when its wrong. There is a different between one sided and factually incorrect.
My distrust of the media in this comes from the publishing of pictures form Syria calming its in Gaza and to the story from Jenin from several years ago printing calms made the palestinians that there was a massacre with 400+ dead as fact when in truth there were around 50 dead most of them militants. These are 2 examples out of the massive amount the exist.
You are proving his point. Just because you believe your media is accurate doesn't make it so.
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On December 02 2012 04:10 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:59 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:55 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:52 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:48 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you're missing the point here. I'm not condoning anyone's actions, not right now; I'm just shedding some light on the fact that there have been over ten thousand rockets fired into Israel from over their border.
ask the boy whose sister was killed while shielding him from a rocket attack if there is any difference to him between the two. I am against suffering from both sides, and just want to make you realize that what Israel is doing isn't really legal nor 'good'. I can continue the trend and say to you to ask all those who died because of IDF. But it's obvious that Hamas isn't an angel here, it is also obvious that they came to power not because Palestinians are Vandals, but because they had no other choice. You know some people prefer dignity over living like a slave. what Israel is doing is largely legal, with some exceptions. and the Palestinians have had other choices all along, and still do have other choices. launching rockets at children from densely populated areas, without the consent of the people whose homes you are launching them from, is dignified? who knew... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-schweber/israel-in-gaza-three-wron_b_156801.htmlRead this link. Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? tell me why Israel should be required to deal with, on any terms, a "government" which is composed of a terrorist organization that has repeatedly called for the destruction of every single Jew on earth? I only heard them calling for destruction of the state of Israel (which i do not agree with). So why don't exaggerate some more. And seeing from the tone of your post that you consider Israeli's superior beings to Palestinians, then why don't you prove it by being more civilized. Give Hamas a chance, remove the blockade, stop spying on them and let's see what happens. You answered to my question with another question, it makes me believe that what I said before is actually true
that's twice you've accused me of exaggerating, and twice you've been wrong:
from Hamas' Charter:
Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised(sic).
no mention of Israel, only of the Jews.
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
to be fair, it was Muhammad that said that, but Hamas says it's their job to make it happen. (again, no mention of Israel)
They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.
gotta love conspiracy theories! again, no mention of Israel (except as an aside).
so yeah, next time... look it up before you make a claim. and no, I didn't answer your question with a question. I just didn't answer your question. Here is your answer:
Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel?
yes, that is the problem. only it's not so much a Palestinian problem as it is a Palestinian leadership problem.
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Again, non of this would have happened had the Israeli not pushed Palestinians out of their own land.
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On December 02 2012 04:17 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:15 Sermokala wrote:On December 02 2012 04:11 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:06 Goozen wrote:On December 02 2012 03:59 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:55 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:52 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:48 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you're missing the point here. I'm not condoning anyone's actions, not right now; I'm just shedding some light on the fact that there have been over ten thousand rockets fired into Israel from over their border.
ask the boy whose sister was killed while shielding him from a rocket attack if there is any difference to him between the two. I am against suffering from both sides, and just want to make you realize that what Israel is doing isn't really legal nor 'good'. I can continue the trend and say to you to ask all those who died because of IDF. But it's obvious that Hamas isn't an angel here, it is also obvious that they came to power not because Palestinians are Vandals, but because they had no other choice. You know some people prefer dignity over living like a slave. what Israel is doing is largely legal, with some exceptions. and the Palestinians have had other choices all along, and still do have other choices. launching rockets at children from densely populated areas, without the consent of the people whose homes you are launching them from, is dignified? who knew... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-schweber/israel-in-gaza-three-wron_b_156801.htmlRead this link. Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? Huffington post is known as extremely biased in this subject and is not what i would regard as reliable source. If you want a example there was a claim made by them that there are jew only roads (cant find the source article but it is cited here) Well aljazeeraH is definitely more reliable than Huffington. Way to go, sir He said that aljazeera cited a huffinton post source for their claim of jew only roads. I am saying that Aljazeerah is not the same as Aljazeera. Show nested quote +The main stream media here is very factually accurate because of the shitstorm that happens globally when its wrong. There is a different between one sided and factually incorrect.
My distrust of the media in this comes from the publishing of pictures form Syria calming its in Gaza and to the story from Jenin from several years ago printing calms made the palestinians that there was a massacre with 400+ dead as fact when in truth there were around 50 dead most of them militants. These are 2 examples out of the massive amount the exist.
You are proving his point. Just because you believe your media is accurate doesn't make it so.
Wow that took me a few times to notice the difference. Honest mistake sorry.
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On December 02 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:10 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:59 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:55 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:52 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:48 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you're missing the point here. I'm not condoning anyone's actions, not right now; I'm just shedding some light on the fact that there have been over ten thousand rockets fired into Israel from over their border.
ask the boy whose sister was killed while shielding him from a rocket attack if there is any difference to him between the two. I am against suffering from both sides, and just want to make you realize that what Israel is doing isn't really legal nor 'good'. I can continue the trend and say to you to ask all those who died because of IDF. But it's obvious that Hamas isn't an angel here, it is also obvious that they came to power not because Palestinians are Vandals, but because they had no other choice. You know some people prefer dignity over living like a slave. what Israel is doing is largely legal, with some exceptions. and the Palestinians have had other choices all along, and still do have other choices. launching rockets at children from densely populated areas, without the consent of the people whose homes you are launching them from, is dignified? who knew... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-schweber/israel-in-gaza-three-wron_b_156801.htmlRead this link. Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? tell me why Israel should be required to deal with, on any terms, a "government" which is composed of a terrorist organization that has repeatedly called for the destruction of every single Jew on earth? I only heard them calling for destruction of the state of Israel (which i do not agree with). So why don't exaggerate some more. And seeing from the tone of your post that you consider Israeli's superior beings to Palestinians, then why don't you prove it by being more civilized. Give Hamas a chance, remove the blockade, stop spying on them and let's see what happens. You answered to my question with another question, it makes me believe that what I said before is actually true that's twice you've accused me of exaggerating, and twice you've been wrong: from Hamas' Charter: Show nested quote +Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised(sic). no mention of Israel, only of the Jews. Show nested quote +"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." to be fair, it was Muhammad that said that, but Hamas says it's their job to make it happen. (again, no mention of Israel) Show nested quote + They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it. gotta love conspiracy theories! again, no mention of Israel (except as an aside). so yeah, next time... look it up before you make a claim. and no, I didn't answer your question with a question. I just didn't answer your question. Here is your answer: Show nested quote +Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? yes, that is the problem. only it's not so much a Palestinian problem as it is a Palestinian leadership problem.
If that's what they say, then I admit my mistake. Now you can go on and answer the rest of my post.
I could also say that the problem lies in the paranoid way of thinking Israel has. Everyone is against them, right?
In the last thing you quoted, there is some truth like Balfour declaration and because of the system of UN they are protected from international pressure. The rest is some conspiracy, where did you get your source?
And this is what I found about Hamas Charter:
Current status of the Charter
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."[76] Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda.[77][78] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[76]
British diplomat and former British ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006".[79] Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, "It's a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended... It projects anger, not vision."[80] Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh, has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.[81]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Current_status_of_the_Charter
Something interesting here too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
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On December 02 2012 04:23 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 04:10 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:59 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:55 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:52 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:48 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you're missing the point here. I'm not condoning anyone's actions, not right now; I'm just shedding some light on the fact that there have been over ten thousand rockets fired into Israel from over their border.
ask the boy whose sister was killed while shielding him from a rocket attack if there is any difference to him between the two. I am against suffering from both sides, and just want to make you realize that what Israel is doing isn't really legal nor 'good'. I can continue the trend and say to you to ask all those who died because of IDF. But it's obvious that Hamas isn't an angel here, it is also obvious that they came to power not because Palestinians are Vandals, but because they had no other choice. You know some people prefer dignity over living like a slave. what Israel is doing is largely legal, with some exceptions. and the Palestinians have had other choices all along, and still do have other choices. launching rockets at children from densely populated areas, without the consent of the people whose homes you are launching them from, is dignified? who knew... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-schweber/israel-in-gaza-three-wron_b_156801.htmlRead this link. Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? tell me why Israel should be required to deal with, on any terms, a "government" which is composed of a terrorist organization that has repeatedly called for the destruction of every single Jew on earth? I only heard them calling for destruction of the state of Israel (which i do not agree with). So why don't exaggerate some more. And seeing from the tone of your post that you consider Israeli's superior beings to Palestinians, then why don't you prove it by being more civilized. Give Hamas a chance, remove the blockade, stop spying on them and let's see what happens. You answered to my question with another question, it makes me believe that what I said before is actually true that's twice you've accused me of exaggerating, and twice you've been wrong: from Hamas' Charter: Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised(sic). no mention of Israel, only of the Jews. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." to be fair, it was Muhammad that said that, but Hamas says it's their job to make it happen. (again, no mention of Israel) They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it. gotta love conspiracy theories! again, no mention of Israel (except as an aside). so yeah, next time... look it up before you make a claim. and no, I didn't answer your question with a question. I just didn't answer your question. Here is your answer: Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? yes, that is the problem. only it's not so much a Palestinian problem as it is a Palestinian leadership problem. If that's what they say, then I admit my mistake. Now you can go on and answer the rest of my post. I could also say that the problem lies in the paranoid way of thinking Israel has. Everyone is against them, right ?
Everyone ARE against them, except USA which is saving them
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On December 02 2012 04:24 Intact wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:23 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 04:10 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:59 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:55 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:52 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:48 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you're missing the point here. I'm not condoning anyone's actions, not right now; I'm just shedding some light on the fact that there have been over ten thousand rockets fired into Israel from over their border.
ask the boy whose sister was killed while shielding him from a rocket attack if there is any difference to him between the two. I am against suffering from both sides, and just want to make you realize that what Israel is doing isn't really legal nor 'good'. I can continue the trend and say to you to ask all those who died because of IDF. But it's obvious that Hamas isn't an angel here, it is also obvious that they came to power not because Palestinians are Vandals, but because they had no other choice. You know some people prefer dignity over living like a slave. what Israel is doing is largely legal, with some exceptions. and the Palestinians have had other choices all along, and still do have other choices. launching rockets at children from densely populated areas, without the consent of the people whose homes you are launching them from, is dignified? who knew... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-schweber/israel-in-gaza-three-wron_b_156801.htmlRead this link. Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? tell me why Israel should be required to deal with, on any terms, a "government" which is composed of a terrorist organization that has repeatedly called for the destruction of every single Jew on earth? I only heard them calling for destruction of the state of Israel (which i do not agree with). So why don't exaggerate some more. And seeing from the tone of your post that you consider Israeli's superior beings to Palestinians, then why don't you prove it by being more civilized. Give Hamas a chance, remove the blockade, stop spying on them and let's see what happens. You answered to my question with another question, it makes me believe that what I said before is actually true that's twice you've accused me of exaggerating, and twice you've been wrong: from Hamas' Charter: Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised(sic). no mention of Israel, only of the Jews. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." to be fair, it was Muhammad that said that, but Hamas says it's their job to make it happen. (again, no mention of Israel) They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it. gotta love conspiracy theories! again, no mention of Israel (except as an aside). so yeah, next time... look it up before you make a claim. and no, I didn't answer your question with a question. I just didn't answer your question. Here is your answer: Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? yes, that is the problem. only it's not so much a Palestinian problem as it is a Palestinian leadership problem. If that's what they say, then I admit my mistake. Now you can go on and answer the rest of my post. I could also say that the problem lies in the paranoid way of thinking Israel has. Everyone is against them, right ? Everyone ARE against them, except USA which is saving them
Everyone IS, not ARE. It all got proved with the last UN thing.
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just in case you try the "the charter is outdated!" argument:
Hamas official Ahmad Bahr:
Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.
Hamas Immam Yousif al-Zahar:
Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing.
Hamas legislator and Imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal:
Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews
Yousif al-Zahar:
Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue.
Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras
The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them...Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times... They slayed the prophets, and so on...Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it.
Hamas statement about a Holocaust conference:
This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism
(of course even Hamas can't get it straight whether they hate Jews or Zionists or both)
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On December 02 2012 04:17 Art.FeeL wrote:
I am saying that Aljazeerah is not the same as Aljazeera.
My mistake, sorry.
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and to answer the rest of your post:
there is nothing civilized or wise about giving in to terrorists who want to kill you. the suggestion is so ludicrous and unbelievably naive that I didn't feel it warranted a response.
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On December 02 2012 04:31 sc2superfan101 wrote:just in case you try the "the charter is outdated!" argument: Hamas official Ahmad Bahr: Show nested quote +Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one. Hamas Immam Yousif al-Zahar: Show nested quote +Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing. Hamas legislator and Imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal: Yousif al-Zahar: Show nested quote +Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue. Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras Show nested quote +The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them...Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times... They slayed the prophets, and so on...Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it. Hamas statement about a Holocaust conference: Show nested quote +This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism(of course even Hamas can't get it straight whether they hate Jews or Zionists or both)
The things you quoted are sensationistic. The last thing certainly is worrysome. But what you expect imams to say? There have been rabbis saying how Jews have to be served by goyim and how they (non jews) are worse than cattle.
Islam believes that Jews once were the Children of God and had the right to be in the promised land, but since they disbelieved God punished them by dispersing them through the world and as a consequence sent the prophet (Muhammad) after Jesus to arabs.
There are some Jews who believe that state of Israel is their right, because they still are children of god, and there are others believing that they do not have to right to own a state without the awaited messiah.
Bunch of claims, but no facts, so it is not surprising to have people like those imams and rabbis
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On December 02 2012 04:35 sc2superfan101 wrote:
and to answer the rest of your post:
there is nothing civilized or wise about giving in to terrorists who want to kill you. the suggestion is so ludicrous and unbelievably naive that I didn't feel it warranted a response.
So what's your solution?
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On December 02 2012 04:39 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:31 sc2superfan101 wrote:just in case you try the "the charter is outdated!" argument: Hamas official Ahmad Bahr: Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one. Hamas Immam Yousif al-Zahar: Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing. Hamas legislator and Imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal: Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews Yousif al-Zahar: Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue. Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them...Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times... They slayed the prophets, and so on...Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it. Hamas statement about a Holocaust conference: This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism(of course even Hamas can't get it straight whether they hate Jews or Zionists or both) The things you quoted are sensationistic. The last thing certainly is worrysome. But what you expect imams to say? There have been rabbis saying how Jews have to be served by goyim and how they (non jews) are worse than cattle.
and when Jews start launching rockets at me (and widely supporting statements like those), I'll start taking those rare exceptions seriously.
On December 02 2012 04:40 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:35 sc2superfan101 wrote:
and to answer the rest of your post:
there is nothing civilized or wise about giving in to terrorists who want to kill you. the suggestion is so ludicrous and unbelievably naive that I didn't feel it warranted a response. So what's your solution?
I don't know, but it definitely doesn't include Israel going anywhere, giving up anything, or working with Hamas.
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On December 02 2012 04:42 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:39 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:31 sc2superfan101 wrote:just in case you try the "the charter is outdated!" argument: Hamas official Ahmad Bahr: Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one. Hamas Immam Yousif al-Zahar: Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing. Hamas legislator and Imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal: Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews Yousif al-Zahar: Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue. Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them...Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times... They slayed the prophets, and so on...Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it. Hamas statement about a Holocaust conference: This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism(of course even Hamas can't get it straight whether they hate Jews or Zionists or both) The things you quoted are sensationistic. The last thing certainly is worrysome. But what you expect imams to say? There have been rabbis saying how Jews have to be served by goyim and how they (non jews) are worse than cattle. and when Jews start launching rockets at me (and widely supporting statements like those), I'll start taking those rare exceptions seriously. Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:40 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:35 sc2superfan101 wrote:
and to answer the rest of your post:
there is nothing civilized or wise about giving in to terrorists who want to kill you. the suggestion is so ludicrous and unbelievably naive that I didn't feel it warranted a response. So what's your solution? I don't know, but it definitely doesn't include Israel going anywhere, giving up anything, or working with Hamas.
I at least gave something that could maybe be a solution, but you are just saying 'I dont know'. That means that you are fine with the situation we have now in the ME, which is quite worrisome.
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On December 01 2012 19:10 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 05:39 KwarK wrote:On December 01 2012 05:33 NicolBolas wrote:On December 01 2012 05:02 SupLilSon wrote:On December 01 2012 04:54 NicolBolas wrote:
That I don't buy. Israel has done enough bad acting in this war to make me suspicious of any "higher aspirations" they might have. Their opposition of Palestinian statehood being a prime example.
There is no reason for them to oppose statehood other than their own personal self-interest. They don't want the Palestinians to be able to come to the bargaining table as equals or even slightly more equally. They want to force the Palestinians to do everything exactly as they want.
Israel ceded the moral high ground long ago. To me, the only difference between the two is which one has the bigger army. To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...? Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight. What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower. Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game? You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it. Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever?
its not its terror too.
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On December 02 2012 04:49 Cuce wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 19:10 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On December 01 2012 05:39 KwarK wrote:On December 01 2012 05:33 NicolBolas wrote:On December 01 2012 05:02 SupLilSon wrote:On December 01 2012 04:54 NicolBolas wrote:
That I don't buy. Israel has done enough bad acting in this war to make me suspicious of any "higher aspirations" they might have. Their opposition of Palestinian statehood being a prime example.
There is no reason for them to oppose statehood other than their own personal self-interest. They don't want the Palestinians to be able to come to the bargaining table as equals or even slightly more equally. They want to force the Palestinians to do everything exactly as they want.
Israel ceded the moral high ground long ago. To me, the only difference between the two is which one has the bigger army. To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...? Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight. What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower. Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game? You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it. Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever? its not its terror too.
Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them.
Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
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On December 02 2012 04:26 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:24 Intact wrote:On December 02 2012 04:23 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 04:10 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 04:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:59 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:55 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 02 2012 03:52 Art.FeeL wrote:On December 02 2012 03:48 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you're missing the point here. I'm not condoning anyone's actions, not right now; I'm just shedding some light on the fact that there have been over ten thousand rockets fired into Israel from over their border.
ask the boy whose sister was killed while shielding him from a rocket attack if there is any difference to him between the two. I am against suffering from both sides, and just want to make you realize that what Israel is doing isn't really legal nor 'good'. I can continue the trend and say to you to ask all those who died because of IDF. But it's obvious that Hamas isn't an angel here, it is also obvious that they came to power not because Palestinians are Vandals, but because they had no other choice. You know some people prefer dignity over living like a slave. what Israel is doing is largely legal, with some exceptions. and the Palestinians have had other choices all along, and still do have other choices. launching rockets at children from densely populated areas, without the consent of the people whose homes you are launching them from, is dignified? who knew... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-schweber/israel-in-gaza-three-wron_b_156801.htmlRead this link. Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? tell me why Israel should be required to deal with, on any terms, a "government" which is composed of a terrorist organization that has repeatedly called for the destruction of every single Jew on earth? I only heard them calling for destruction of the state of Israel (which i do not agree with). So why don't exaggerate some more. And seeing from the tone of your post that you consider Israeli's superior beings to Palestinians, then why don't you prove it by being more civilized. Give Hamas a chance, remove the blockade, stop spying on them and let's see what happens. You answered to my question with another question, it makes me believe that what I said before is actually true that's twice you've accused me of exaggerating, and twice you've been wrong: from Hamas' Charter: Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised(sic). no mention of Israel, only of the Jews. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." to be fair, it was Muhammad that said that, but Hamas says it's their job to make it happen. (again, no mention of Israel) They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it. gotta love conspiracy theories! again, no mention of Israel (except as an aside). so yeah, next time... look it up before you make a claim. and no, I didn't answer your question with a question. I just didn't answer your question. Here is your answer: Can you be straightforward and say that the problem lies in Palestinian mentality that wants to destroy Israel? yes, that is the problem. only it's not so much a Palestinian problem as it is a Palestinian leadership problem. If that's what they say, then I admit my mistake. Now you can go on and answer the rest of my post. I could also say that the problem lies in the paranoid way of thinking Israel has. Everyone is against them, right ? Everyone ARE against them, except USA which is saving them Everyone IS, not ARE. It all got proved with the last UN thing.
What's the difference between is and are in this context? I'm curious,
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On December 02 2012 04:31 sc2superfan101 wrote:just in case you try the "the charter is outdated!" argument: Hamas official Ahmad Bahr: Show nested quote +Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one. Hamas Immam Yousif al-Zahar: Show nested quote +Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing. Hamas legislator and Imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal: Yousif al-Zahar: Show nested quote +Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue. Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras Show nested quote +The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them...Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times... They slayed the prophets, and so on...Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it. Hamas statement about a Holocaust conference: Show nested quote +This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism(of course even Hamas can't get it straight whether they hate Jews or Zionists or both)
Now do the same for the Likud charter - the right wing party that has led Israel or had a major influence in the Knesset throughout the entire existence of the country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud
The 2 below quotes are taken from the above link:
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."
Does not really sound like they are very interested in a bistate peaceful solution either.
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On December 02 2012 04:54 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:49 Cuce wrote:On December 01 2012 19:10 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On December 01 2012 05:39 KwarK wrote:On December 01 2012 05:33 NicolBolas wrote:On December 01 2012 05:02 SupLilSon wrote:On December 01 2012 04:54 NicolBolas wrote:
That I don't buy. Israel has done enough bad acting in this war to make me suspicious of any "higher aspirations" they might have. Their opposition of Palestinian statehood being a prime example.
There is no reason for them to oppose statehood other than their own personal self-interest. They don't want the Palestinians to be able to come to the bargaining table as equals or even slightly more equally. They want to force the Palestinians to do everything exactly as they want.
Israel ceded the moral high ground long ago. To me, the only difference between the two is which one has the bigger army. To my knowledge they resisted Palestinian statehood because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Palestinian statehood essentially equates to a state governed by a malicious terrorist faction. Regardless of the sentiments of your average Palestinian, how can you not see this as a concern to Israel...? Of course they're a "terrorist organization." They're fighting an asymmetric war; that's what the side on the small end of the asymmetry has to be in order to effectively fight. What Israel wants is for it to be a war between soldiers. Well, that's not going to happen because that's effectively Palestine losing, since they don't have as many and the ones they do have aren't as well funded or backed by a superpower. Demonizing Hamas for fighting back in the only way that they can is politics, nothing more. It's setting up a rules system so that your enemy can't win, then saying that they're cheating when they break the rules. Do you get pissed off when someone all-ins you because they wouldn't win a macro-game? You can say that Hamas has to avoid wearing uniform to avoid simply being targeted and killed due to the superior Israeli arsenal and you can say that Israel is seeking to demonise them and both of those statements are true. And then Hamas fires a rocket into a civilian area hoping for indiscriminate Israeli deaths and the argument falls apart. They're terrorists. There is a line, they crossed it. Im sorry but how is it terrorism when hamas is using guerilla tactics (because of their arsenal, believe me if they had access to the same weapons Israel have, they would use them...) but when Israeli forces are bombing waterstations, hospitals, powerplants etc its "just" Warfare??? HOW does this make any sense whatsoever? its not its terror too. Show me proof of this that Israel targets these systematically and its not collateral from Hamas storing weapons in them. Saying we bomb hospitals, water stations and power plants (we supply water and power to gaza) is slander unless you show me hard proof that this is so. During cast led the entirety of Hamas's leadership hid under the hospital, so why not raze it?
isreal is targeting palastine infrastrucete for decades under facade of stoping terrorist action. burden of proof does not fall on me it falls on israel. never once preoper investigations were allowed or proper proof was given by isreal on reasons of this attacks. we had times isreal razing down structures with bulldozers, with reasons of self defence. I dont buy it, NOONE buys it.
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On December 02 2012 05:06 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 04:31 sc2superfan101 wrote:just in case you try the "the charter is outdated!" argument: Hamas official Ahmad Bahr: Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one. Hamas Immam Yousif al-Zahar: Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing. Hamas legislator and Imam, Sheik Yunus al-Astal: Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews Yousif al-Zahar: Wherever you have been you've been sent to your destruction. You've killed and murdered your prophets and you have always dealt in loan-sharking and destruction. You've made a deal with the devil and with destruction itself – just like your synagogue. Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras The Jews are behind each and every catastrophe on the face of the Earth. This is not open to debate. This is not a temporal thing, but goes back to days of yore. They concocted so many conspiracies and betrayed rulers and nations so many times that the people harbor hatred towards them...Throughout history – from Nebuchadnezzar until modern times... They slayed the prophets, and so on...Any catastrophe on the face of this Earth – the Jews must be behind it. Hamas statement about a Holocaust conference: This conference bears a clear Zionist goal, aimed at forging history by hiding the truth about the so-called Holocaust, which is an alleged and invented story with no basis. (...) The invention of these grand illusions of an alleged crime that never occurred, ignoring the millions of dead European victims of Nazism during the war, clearly reveals the racist Zionist face, which believes in the superiority of the Jewish race over the rest of the nations. (...) By these methods, the Jews in the world flout scientific methods of research whenever that research contradicts their racist interests. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism_and_anti-Zionism(of course even Hamas can't get it straight whether they hate Jews or Zionists or both) Now do the same for the Likud charter - the right wing party that has led Israel or had a major influence in the Knesset throughout the entire existence of the country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LikudThe 2 below quotes are taken from the above link: "The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting. "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs." Does not really sound like they are very interested in a bistate peaceful solution either.
I wonder why they aren't interested in a peaceful bi-state solution with a government that purportedly wants the majority of their population to be cleansed?
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EPT
