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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On June 07 2013 10:00 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 09:38 aTnClouD wrote:On June 07 2013 09:02 Ghostcom wrote:
I would argue that one has misunderstood the fundamentals of dating (or social interaction) if one considers it a boxing match. Considering how happy PUAs are with their pseudoscience insistence on looking at primal instincts for explanations I find it hilarious that they neglect the tidbit about why any species is social to begin with (hint: It is NOT to fight within the society). The whole point PUAs make is that we live in a society where we don't need our primal instincts but still retain them because biological evolution didn't go on par with technology and the explosion of human population. While women are very counterintuitive and irrational today they weren't a few thousands years back. They say that you have to play by these old rules to understand them, because if you play by logic you are going to lose. I personally found in the PUA community many answers I have been looking for my whole life and it greatly improved my interaction with women and sex life. I do not find women to be irrational nor counterintuitive in a modern context. Shiori nailed it pretty hard.
My experience is that if you treat them as human beings rather than try to manipulate them they will reject you. I dream nothing but a relationship with a girl I consider my equal but by now after so much fail I realized it's just not possible. I am glad you had a flock of rare extraterrestrial experiences but in the real world pick up and relationships work this way.
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On June 07 2013 09:50 Shiori wrote:
PUA tactics are only necessary if you think of women as some sort of conquest or goal that needs achieving rather than as organic human beings.
You're engaging in normative arguments rather than empirical ones.
Everything that you want is a goal. If you want to achieve your goals, there are methods that work, and methods that don't.
If you think that pick-up techniques don't work, then advance arguments to support your thesis instead of trying to fallaciously attack the character of PUAs. If you need an example, I've given my own criticisms of PUAs in this thread, and you'll notice that they are rooted in substantive arguments rather than fallacy.
On June 07 2013 09:50 Shiori wrote:The philosophy of self-improvement that PUA tends to advocate is definitely beneficial, but psychological tricks used to convince people to sleep with you are essentially deception in most cases.
Pick-up is essentially advertising for men. It is no more deceptive than advertising for women (make-up, high heels, girl game, etc.) is deceptive. Impression management (e.g. advertising/PR for human social interactions) is no more deceptive than advertising in general.
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On June 07 2013 09:02 Ghostcom wrote:
I would argue that one has misunderstood the fundamentals of dating (or social interaction) if one considers it a boxing match.
"Boxing match" was Grumbels's words, not mine. The point being alluded to is that a knowledgeable person in any competitive field (such as dating) can describe it from a strategic standpoint. This is no different from skilled StarCraft players being able to describe the strategic/tactical details of StarCraft in a way that is alien to a casual player, or a skilled boxer being able to describe the strategic/tactical details of a boxing match in a way that is alien to a casual observer.
On June 07 2013 09:02 Ghostcom wrote:
Considering how happy PUAs are with their pseudoscience insistence on looking at primal instincts for explanations I find it hilarious that they neglect the tidbit about why any species is social to begin with (hint: It is NOT to fight within the society).
PUAs engage in pseudoscience when they apply evolutionary psychology incorrectly, but looking at evolutionary psychology for explanations of social behavior is the whole point of evolutionary psychology.
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On June 07 2013 10:36 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 09:02 Ghostcom wrote:
I would argue that one has misunderstood the fundamentals of dating (or social interaction) if one considers it a boxing match. "Boxing match" was Grumbels's words, not mine. The point being alluded to is that a knowledgeable person in any competitive field (such as dating) can describe it from a strategic standpoint. This is no different from skilled StarCraft players being able to describe the strategic/tactical details of StarCraft in a way that is alien to a casual player, or a skilled boxer being able to describe the strategic/tactical details of a boxing match in a way that is alien to a casual observer. Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 09:02 Ghostcom wrote:
Considering how happy PUAs are with their pseudoscience insistence on looking at primal instincts for explanations I find it hilarious that they neglect the tidbit about why any species is social to begin with (hint: It is NOT to fight within the society). PUAs engage in pseudoscience when they apply evolutionary psychology incorrectly, but looking at evolutionary psychology for explanations of social behavior is the whole point of evolutionary psychology.
You have yet to bring up a single piece of empirical evidence yourself, other than vaguely alluding to "academic scientific research", so perhaps you should refrain from throwing rocks, living in a glass house and all (and I realize I have done no better, but I am not the one claiming half the worlds population act in a specific way).
I find it laughable that you focus on the words "Boxing match" and not the reason why he referred to it as such. Let me rephrase it for you: The terms "dodge" or "retaliate" to describe social interactions, especially a social interaction like dating where you are trying to find a compatible partner, shows that you have failed to grasp what the concept behind dating is. If you want to seduce girls, not woo them, then sure it might be appropriate, but then, what are you really doing giving advice in a thread concerning dating?
Looking to evolutionary psychology as the only explanation is one of the many things that bothers me with PUA - the field might have its merits but it is very far from being able to give the answers the PUA community claims it to do.
Anyway, I am off to what must be another extraterrestrial encounter according to aTnClouD. There might even be probing going on later.
EDIT: What I meant to say was: Have a good evening everyone 
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On June 07 2013 10:58 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 10:36 sunprince wrote:On June 07 2013 09:02 Ghostcom wrote:
I would argue that one has misunderstood the fundamentals of dating (or social interaction) if one considers it a boxing match. "Boxing match" was Grumbels's words, not mine. The point being alluded to is that a knowledgeable person in any competitive field (such as dating) can describe it from a strategic standpoint. This is no different from skilled StarCraft players being able to describe the strategic/tactical details of StarCraft in a way that is alien to a casual player, or a skilled boxer being able to describe the strategic/tactical details of a boxing match in a way that is alien to a casual observer. On June 07 2013 09:02 Ghostcom wrote:
Considering how happy PUAs are with their pseudoscience insistence on looking at primal instincts for explanations I find it hilarious that they neglect the tidbit about why any species is social to begin with (hint: It is NOT to fight within the society). PUAs engage in pseudoscience when they apply evolutionary psychology incorrectly, but looking at evolutionary psychology for explanations of social behavior is the whole point of evolutionary psychology. You have yet to bring up a single piece of empirical evidence yourself, other than vaguely alluding to "academic scientific research", so perhaps you should refrain from throwing rocks, living in a glass house and all (and I realize I have done no better, but I am not the one claiming half the worlds population act in a specific way).
I have a long posting history in this thread and in other threads on related topics, and over time I have linked a very large number of white papers as well as casual studies. If you feel that any of my claims are unsubstantiated, simply let me know and I can link to evidence for my claims.
On June 07 2013 10:58 Ghostcom wrote:
I find it laughable that you focus on the words "Boxing match" and not the reason why he referred to it as such. Let me rephrase it for you: The terms "dodge" or "retaliate" to describe social interactions, especially a social interaction like dating where you are trying to find a compatible partner, shows that you have failed to grasp what the concept behind dating is. If you want to seduce girls, not woo them, then sure it might be appropriate, but then, what are you really doing giving advice in a thread concerning dating?
Dating involves playing games, chasing, and playing coy. If you are unfamiliar with this aspect of dating, then you are not at all familiar with the subject.
On June 07 2013 10:58 Ghostcom wrote:
Looking to evolutionary psychology as the only explanation is one of the many things that bothers me with PUA - the field might have its merits but it is very far from being able to give the answers the PUA community claims it to do.
Agreed.
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On June 07 2013 09:50 Shiori wrote:
PUA tactics are only necessary if you think of women as some sort of conquest or goal that needs achieving rather than as organic human beings. The philosophy of self-improvement that PUA tends to advocate is definitely beneficial, but psychological tricks used to convince people to sleep with you are essentially deception in most cases.
Well... If I see an attractive woman, do I make getting her a goal, or do I passively sit back as someone else more proactively gets the girl. Also PUAs don't use psychological tricks; PUA's aren't that good... they aren't psychological mind benders like what most people imagine. They're just normal guys with good social skills, and when they're in the zone and other women are around, they go out, have fun, meet different women, and make love. Much like we all imagine ourselves doing it.
I think a lot of the pop culture idea of PUA's using carefully timed psychological tricks to seduce women and make them do things against their will comes from an outsider perspective. For someone who rarely meets a woman that finds them attractive or who doesn't flake, what PUAs do may seem very sophisticated and outlandish to them. Much like Cortes marching into Tenochtitlan and the Aztecs mistaking him for a god.
Now obviously every group has varying people. Some PUAs are fucking crazy, others are cool. Some non PUAs are creepy as hell, others are cool.
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My problem with these PUA's is that many of them are just lying to themselves about what they're really after. My buddy who gets laid the most of anyone I know does so probably because his father left him and his mom as a little kid. He has to make up for that lack of acceptance and affection somehow, right? Lie to women to get laid but for shits sake don't lie to yourself.
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On June 08 2013 00:52 TheFish7 wrote:
My problem with these PUA's is that many of them are just lying to themselves about what they're really after. My buddy who gets laid the most of anyone I know does so probably because his father left him and his mom as a little kid. He has to make up for that lack of acceptance and affection somehow, right? Lie to women to get laid but for shits sake don't lie to yourself.
This statement is irrational. Just by saying most PUAs (who, for the record, are guys of any kind who want to learn how to get laid a lot with different women) have some kind of underlying problem I will find hard to take seriously anything you write from now on. You could find these kind of problems in anyone and rationalize them into anything.
Don't bother replying to protect your ego.
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This is turning into a "try to figure out a woman's' mind thread" and guys, i'm telling you, you won't figure it out.
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Getting action from a variety of hot women is more of a biological thing, less some mental problem. Taking anything to the extreme could be seen as a sign of a problem, but there is no point in judging others.
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On June 08 2013 01:07 Narobz wrote:
This is turning into a "try to figure out a woman's' mind thread" and guys, i'm telling you, you won't figure it out.
Actually it's not very difficult to apply the sorts of tricks pioneered by mentalists to seduce men or women by fabricating a persona that appears much more attractive than its depth warrants. Of course, doing this essentially makes the PUA in question guilty of considering people nothing more than means to the end of his/her pleasure, which, to my mind, is fairly unethical.
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I have never had a problem finding and dating attractive, interesting women. I am not a PUA and have never done anything other than be myself. I am in a band which helps but I don't prey on hangers on or groupies. I'm 30, tall, bald, intelligent and talented. I like myself and I think girls like that.
Just here to say you don't have to be a predatorial dbag or engage in brodude mind-games to get women. Be yourself and, more importantly, like yourself -- and they will like you.
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On June 08 2013 04:23 IPA wrote:
I have never had a problem finding and dating attractive, interesting women. I am not a PUA and have never done anything other than be myself. I am in a band which helps but I don't prey on hangers on or groupies. I'm 30, tall, bald, intelligent and talented. I like myself and I think girls like that.
Just here to say you don't have to be a predatorial dbag or engage in brodude mind-games to get women. Be yourself and, more importantly, like yourself -- and they will like you.
Here comes a debate about how you're actually just highly valued on the sexual marketplace and subconsciously playing games or some nonsense.
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On June 08 2013 04:23 IPA wrote:
I have never had a problem finding and dating attractive, interesting women. I am not a PUA and have never done anything other than be myself. I am in a band which helps but I don't prey on hangers on or groupies. I'm 30, tall, bald, intelligent and talented. I like myself and I think girls like that.
Just here to say you don't have to be a predatorial dbag or engage in brodude mind-games to get women. Be yourself and, more importantly, like yourself -- and they will like you.
You're in the prime of your life, tall, intelligent, and in a band? This sums it up: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pfhy4/
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On June 08 2013 04:18 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:07 Narobz wrote:
This is turning into a "try to figure out a woman's' mind thread" and guys, i'm telling you, you won't figure it out. Actually it's not very difficult to apply the sorts of tricks pioneered by mentalists to seduce men or women by fabricating a persona that appears much more attractive than its depth warrants. Of course, doing this essentially makes the PUA in question guilty of considering people nothing more than means to the end of his/her pleasure, which, to my mind, is fairly unethical.
"Actually it's not very difficult to apply the sorts of tricks pioneered by mentalists to advertise a product. Of course, doing this essentially makes the advertiser in guilty of considering people nothing more than means to the end of his/her profit, which, to my mind, is fairly unethical"
Can you spot the flaw with this sort of reasoning?
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On June 08 2013 00:52 TheFish7 wrote:
My problem with these PUA's is that many of them are just lying to themselves about what they're really after. My buddy who gets laid the most of anyone I know does so probably because his father left him and his mom as a little kid. He has to make up for that lack of acceptance and affection somehow, right? Lie to women to get laid but for shits sake don't lie to yourself.
Slut shaming 101. If someone has a high sex drive, it must be because they have mental problems, amirite?
User was warned for this post
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On June 08 2013 05:17 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 04:18 Shiori wrote:On June 08 2013 01:07 Narobz wrote:
This is turning into a "try to figure out a woman's' mind thread" and guys, i'm telling you, you won't figure it out. Actually it's not very difficult to apply the sorts of tricks pioneered by mentalists to seduce men or women by fabricating a persona that appears much more attractive than its depth warrants. Of course, doing this essentially makes the PUA in question guilty of considering people nothing more than means to the end of his/her pleasure, which, to my mind, is fairly unethical. "Actually it's not very difficult to apply the sorts of tricks pioneered by mentalists to advertise a product. Of course, doing this essentially makes the advertiser in guilty of considering people nothing more than means to the end of his/her profit, which, to my mind, is fairly unethical" Can you spot the flaw with this sort of reasoning?
Yup. You're, as I mentioned, equivocating human beings with products i.e. objects, for one, so the analogy fails. And, frankly, I do consider certain forms of advertisement to be unethical, which is why I quit the one sales-oriented job I've ever had. I won't try to trick people into buying things they don't need.
It's one thing to present yourself in the best authentic way that you can. It's another thing to use psychological games to trick someone into sleeping with you (e.g. "negging," etc)
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On June 08 2013 05:13 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 04:23 IPA wrote:
I have never had a problem finding and dating attractive, interesting women. I am not a PUA and have never done anything other than be myself. I am in a band which helps but I don't prey on hangers on or groupies. I'm 30, tall, bald, intelligent and talented. I like myself and I think girls like that.
Just here to say you don't have to be a predatorial dbag or engage in brodude mind-games to get women. Be yourself and, more importantly, like yourself -- and they will like you. You're in the prime of your life, tall, intelligent, and in a band? This sums it up: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pfhy4/
He's 30 and bald. Doesn't sound "prime" to me. Truth is, everybody has at least one thing going for them. Mixing that with a level of self-worth and pride will bring out those good qualities, and personal preferences of the opposite sex will do the rest.
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On June 08 2013 05:18 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 00:52 TheFish7 wrote:
My problem with these PUA's is that many of them are just lying to themselves about what they're really after. My buddy who gets laid the most of anyone I know does so probably because his father left him and his mom as a little kid. He has to make up for that lack of acceptance and affection somehow, right? Lie to women to get laid but for shits sake don't lie to yourself. Slut shaming 101. If someone has a high sex drive, it must be because they have mental problems, amirite?
If you view other human beings as nothing more than objects of sexual desire, then you definitely have mental problems. There's nothing wrong with sleeping around as such, provided it's consensual, but viewing people as simply things to fuck is repulsive and indicative of narcissism, bad ethics, or both. Mind you, I'm not sure what the person you quoted was going for, but that's the way I read it. Lying to women to get laid is, of course, repulsive as well.
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On June 08 2013 05:13 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 04:23 IPA wrote:
I have never had a problem finding and dating attractive, interesting women. I am not a PUA and have never done anything other than be myself. I am in a band which helps but I don't prey on hangers on or groupies. I'm 30, tall, bald, intelligent and talented. I like myself and I think girls like that.
Just here to say you don't have to be a predatorial dbag or engage in brodude mind-games to get women. Be yourself and, more importantly, like yourself -- and they will like you. You're in the prime of your life, tall, intelligent, and in a band? This sums it up: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pfhy4/
I get it. But I'm also a bald man (typically not highly rated on the ole' desirability scale). I'm also slightly introverted and I play SC2 at a masters level -- love having that conversation with women. 
So while I do think I am a guy with a lot going for him, I just wanted to make the point that I'm certainly not the handsome devil used in the meme (or really anything close to that). I'm a talented nerd with confidence. I think that sums it up.
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EPT
