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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
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Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On August 12 2018 20:21 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2018 16:13 sc-darkness wrote:Hmm, haven't you started splitting the bill in the US as well? Or, was your friend trying to be a gentleman? On August 12 2018 14:30 LegalLord wrote:
Eh. Sounds shitty but spending $60 on a date isn’t enough to really warrant more than a “meh.”
At most I’d probably skip the bar given the fact that it wasn’t really going anywhere. Not enough money to warrant a “fuck you, pay for it yourself” move. Not being a douchebag with people is priceless though. Yeah, i feel like the whole "Pay for stuff the girl does" thing is kind of outdated if you think of women as equals. In the long term, you can of course have the kind of system where one of you invite the other to one date, and the other pays for the next, or something along those lines, but that doesn't really work in a first date obviously. I must say that i wouldn't be really attracted to a woman who thinks of me as a bag of money anyways.
Not really outdated if you think of the usual series of actions that leads to a first date: A guy asking a girl out. While it does happen, it's rather rare for a girl to invite a guy out for a date simply due to the fact that it's generally the man's job to impress a girl and not the other way around (I don't know of any single girls, good looking or not, who don't consistently have tons of guys around them trying to jump their bones).
And if you ask someone out for a date, it's expected that you're paying for it. It's not about discrimination or being old fashioned, it's that the inviter usually pays, and for a first date that will usually be the guy. If she remarks it, you could use it to set up the next date with "I'll let you pay next time" or something along those lines.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable to pay for a date - although I would very much expect her to be gracious, rather than entitled, about it - which also does necessarily include not being a spendthrift with the expectation that it will be paid for. $60 isn't enough to start a fight over, though, even in the aforementioned visibly shitty scenario. A sign that there won't be a date #2, but no big deal on its own.
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On August 12 2018 12:38 L_Master wrote:
So a funny/painful one for y'all. Couple nights ago a friend of mine wanted to go on a date with this girl he had matched with on Tinder, but apparently she said to bring a friend it was going to be a double date. He asked me, and of course I'd never done that before and have been trying to get out more so I said sure, figured it would be an interesting experience.
Things got a little interesting when I saw the place they had decided on, which was a somewhat upscale Sushi place in Boulder. Not ridiculous, but not Applebee's or something either. I figured whatever, not big one Sushi but I'm here for the experience and I can order something on the lighter side. Met the girls, and they seemed fine at first. Very attractive and in good shape. Started hanging out and they immediately ordered drinks and the like (I passed, not wanting to spend to much). Next thing that made me wonder is they said they had decided to go out to bars after (my friend had said they were probably just going to go back to their place and watch a movie or whatever if they got along) and that they were going to have a friend joining them. In my head I'm kinda wondering how well this is going to go. Started talking and to be honest the conversation wasn't terrible. My date was reasonably fun to talk to, but these girls were VERY good friends and my friend wasn't being confidence/engaging tough to keep his girl heavily into him. Which meant they spent alot of time talking to each other, often with inside references.
I didn't feel like it was ON with the girl I was talking to, but got the impression she was at ;east modestly open/attracted. Conversation was overall decent, and they were at least to me reasonable to talk to outside of a decent number of interruptions by friend 2 to the girl I was talking to. Came time to order and I got something nice and inexpensive, my friend got something medium, and red flag #3 the girls both ordered double orders of fairly expensive stuff. The conversation continued to be okay, I got some light teasing in but really was never able to isolate and get into anything decent with my girl, and my friend definitely didn't. However, it wasn't leading anywhere, and I wasn't feeling too great about the situation. Red flag number 4 happened next and the girls both went to the bathroom together. A short while later red flag number 5 was coming up throughout the date though, and that was that both girls very much had people paying for shit they did. Heavily parental support, mentioning not having bought toilet paper or necessities ever because she would wait for Grandpa to spoil her, etc. Was getting a bit turned off and suspicious at this point. Then red flag number 6 came up, where my girl literally asked my friend if he would mow the lawn for them. It was slightly joking but clearly intended to be serious. I made a joke about maybe he would if there was a six pack of beer involved and the other girl basically emphasized for free.
Alarm bells ringing at defcon 1 at this point.
Few minutes later waiter comes back to bring the checks. I was getting ready to say bring us the four separate checks when my fucking friend goes "we'll split it two ways". FUCK. The bill was over $120, of which my share was $6. I don't know if he had totally missed that the conversation had been more or less very meh with no real energy (despite the girls allegedly already being a bit drunk) AND all the fucking hints. I was on the verge of insisting on a three way split, but bitched out. Ate $60.
We decided to go to a different bar. My date was still talking to me and while it wasn't going great, at least to me it didn't seem like a lost cause either. My friend literally just started leading to the bar not talking to either of the girls. We got to this bar (of course it's like Thursday at 8:30 so the bar is dead AF too) and went in. Soon as we got in the bar my friend's date dragged mine to the ping pong table to play. There were only two paddles, which left me and my friend both standing there next to the girls just watching. I was talking to my girl a bit, my friend....went and got a beer. Then just stood there. After this game, my friend's girl didn't just shut down, she literally went ice. She had been lightly receptive to me earlier, but now I made a joke or two and literally got a "fuck off dumbass" glare from her.
I just looked at my friend and gave him a "It's over, you done fucked up look". He still didn't seem to realize it, but he did say something about it not going well. The third friend arrived, I talked with her and my girl a bit, my friend stood off to the side while his chick went to get another drink. Shortly after she got back, my girl was like "I gotta pee". I also went to use the bathroom, and while walking away I heard one of the other girls say they were going to grab water. Walked out of the bathroom to find all three girls together and got a hilarious look from my friends date.
Went back to find my friend still standing there...I guess waiting for them to get back. I was like dude, they definitely just fucking walked out, but he didn't but it at first until I told him to go ask the fucking bartender if those chicks gone up the stairs. I hadn't seen them leave, but it was pretty obvious to me what was up. Of course, they had left.
Bam. $60 bucks for 45' of average conversation and 20' of a game of Jenga and watching too chick play ping pong at a bar. Fucking hell. I should have had some sort of contingency plan or way of getting in touch with my friend about what was going down, but didn't and got wrecked badly.
It's a little funny, and there is a saying about a fool and his money....but I'm still pissed about that right now. My budget is tight AF, and that's basically enough to kill any eating out or fun events I wanted to do for this month. Wrecked.
TBH only difference between you and your friend is you being a little more talkative and aware. It looks like you haven't directly tried to flirt with your girl, at least in a successful way. Sometimes in these scenarios playing your cards out open brings more luck than expecting something from the girls. I mean, if you talk friendly to her eventually you become a nice person to meet but nothing more than that. If I were you, I would use the opportunity when they were already drunk before hitting the pub, and joke around about some plans what would you guys do in the pub and after. For example after paying for your girl, you could just go next to her, reach for her hand and say smth like "After you m'lady!" and joke about stuff like "I think it's you on my share, hope you like xxx beer" for example. If girl is smiling and catching up to your jokes there's still high chance your buddy would ruin the night and girls leave together, because I think no girl will say, okay you go, I stay and fuck this fella. In this case I usually insist on playing some sort or truth and dare games in a round table where people have to ask question to each other, usually starts with "whats your real name hehehe" and then goes into "how many people you fooled with your beauty and broke their hearths after the night?" and if one player wants to skip can use 3 jokers, if 3 jokers are out, buying everyone beer. This game usually worked fine with me, most girls are extremely honest in their answers and if you manage to influence them with your jokes and answers, you say winning one decides what we do next, if girls win they say okay lets go and fuck because they already had fun, if you win, you say let's go for a walk, grab ice cream and then we can watch a movie or so. buying the ice cream while they're completely drunk can be evaded, anyways. you wouldnt lose anything if you got heavily rejected with your flirts, you don't know them, you won't see them again. always remember this for the next times.
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On August 12 2018 07:34 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2018 03:50 GoTuNk! wrote:On August 11 2018 21:20 ThunderGod wrote:
What do people think about personality types and seeking partners?
Is it something you think about in early attraction phases?
Do you find you seek out partners who have similar personalities (e.g. both tend towards introverted) or perhaps complementary (you plan ahead, partner spontaneous).
I don't really want to go into Myers-Briggs type labels, more general traits. For short term doesn't matter. To form a family and raise kids, the most important is shared values. This is something which can develop over time tho, and not something that's worth looking specifically for when you first meet someone. Of course if you've been together for a while and still don't have a single thing in common then I'd advice ending it.
I strongly disagree with this. Values are not the same as hobbies and remain somewhat fixed once you grow up; you need to share them with your long term partner. Else when problems and important decisions arise, you will be pulling to different sides.
As I said, for short term you just need attraction.
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On August 13 2018 03:18 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2018 07:34 Excludos wrote:On August 12 2018 03:50 GoTuNk! wrote:On August 11 2018 21:20 ThunderGod wrote:
What do people think about personality types and seeking partners?
Is it something you think about in early attraction phases?
Do you find you seek out partners who have similar personalities (e.g. both tend towards introverted) or perhaps complementary (you plan ahead, partner spontaneous).
I don't really want to go into Myers-Briggs type labels, more general traits. For short term doesn't matter. To form a family and raise kids, the most important is shared values. This is something which can develop over time tho, and not something that's worth looking specifically for when you first meet someone. Of course if you've been together for a while and still don't have a single thing in common then I'd advice ending it. I strongly disagree with this. Values are not the same as hobbies and remain somewhat fixed once you grow up; you need to share them with your long term partner. Else when problems and important decisions arise, you will be pulling to different sides. As I said, for short term you just need attraction.
So let me get this straight: You don't think values can change over time? Especially if influenced by a close person in your life?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
That’s probably as close to static as something can be, yes. The core principles by which you live aren’t something that will be swayed by just about anything, so they really have to mesh for you to be long-term compatible.
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If your principles are fixed for life you're gonna be a grumpy old fart that always complains about everything being better in the old days.
Simple examples are violence against women between husband and wife as well as Gay marriage.
Both entirely acceptable and unacceptable respectively 30 years ago in the then contemporary value system.
You could argue the example to be a bit fabricated and I wouldn't necessarily disagree because I more or less share the sentiment that adhering to one's values is important, weren't it for the fact that many people apply their values only when convenient, still with such a broad and unspecific statement I wanted to point out that societal values change over time and that can improve the lives of a significant part of the population.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Let's... dial that back a little bit to remove the loaded / politically charged rhetoric, because we can actually make a good example out of those points. Values go significantly deeper than mere political affiliations (which are often strongly rooted, but far from static), and even to the extent that they change in adulthood, it's not something that will fall into place out of affection for someone close to you. If the two of you have a vastly different perception of the role of the woman in a marriage, or of the merits of having children, or if one has a powerful sense of religious devotion that the other does not share, does mere closeness bridge that gap? In fact, the opposite is almost always true, that those core values will take precedence and cause things to come apart. Even if not at first, even if you think you can suppress it, over the course of years these things boil to the surface and form truly insurmountable gaps. And that level of compatibility is something far more static than anyone would like.
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On August 13 2018 06:50 LegalLord wrote:
Let's... dial that back a little bit to remove the loaded / politically charged rhetoric, because we can actually make a good example out of those points. Values go significantly deeper than mere political affiliations (which are often strongly rooted, but far from static), and even to the extent that they change in adulthood, it's not something that will fall into place out of affection for someone close to you. If the two of you have a vastly different perception of the role of the woman in a marriage, or of the merits of having children, or if one has a powerful sense of religious devotion that the other does not share, does mere closeness bridge that gap? In fact, the opposite is almost always true, that those core values will take precedence and cause things to come apart. Even if not at first, even if you think you can suppress it, over the course of years these things boil to the surface and form truly insurmountable gaps. And that level of compatibility is something far more static than anyone would like.
Exactly what I wanted to come across. You shouldn't marry people just because you find them atractive and have fun together.
On the values - politics thing, politics are the tip of the iceberg values. You have to find out if your partners political positions are because of their core values, or the simply repeat certain slogans without much thought into it. Some people do not care about politics at all aswell.
For example me and my gf strongly value personal responsability and frugality. To no surprise, when we first discussed politics a few months into the relationship we were of the same leaning. Almost two years later, she bakes 4th of July cakes for us 
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I'm about to have a 3rd date with a girl and on the previous 2 dates I also paid for everything.
I don't mind, however I would've liked if she suggested paying half/paying for drinks after a meal. I might've paid for it all anyway, but the suggestion is nice.
It helps that the dates went great. After a trainwreck like what L_Master described having to pay for everything is pretty rough.
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Some celebrations are in order, page 1000 has been reached! 
I'm about to have a 3rd date with a girl and on the previous 2 dates I also paid for everything.
I don't mind, however I would've liked if she suggested paying half/paying for drinks after a meal. I might've paid for it all anyway, but the suggestion is nice.
Why don't you mind it? Curious why you wouldn't want her to pay for herself. Do you think she might leave you if she has to? Does it feel "manly"? Or are people in Belgium just stuck in old habits (if your country tag is correct)?
This is a decent videon on this subject. Some dude who seems to be at a seminar with only women talking about dating. I think he brings out some very valid points and thoughts.
Who Pays on a First Date? - Matthew Hussey, Get The Guy
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Well... To me there is the subtle question if you "invite" the other for a date or if you simply "meet" for a date.
A: Hey, I know this awesome place I must show you, Let's meet there tmrw.
B: ?.?
-> I would expect A to pay all.
A: Hey, I heard of this to this place, my friends say they serve fantastic white chocolate.
B: Ohhh, I love white chocolate too.
A: Great, then how about going there tomorrow?
B: Absolutely, We must try it!
-> I would expect the bill to be split.
So I would say for the majority of the dates I would go with the "bill is split" way, when one simply agrees to meet in a location you have no extraordinary relationship to or both care about equally.
But there are some special cases, where I would take the bill, because I absolutely want to share something and want to invite the other to see "my thing".
E.g. with Movies... Going into the latest blockbuster -> Split
Going to watch that completely unknown favorite film of mine in a small backyard cinema, when the other never cared about such kind of movie theaters -> Pay All.
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On August 13 2018 19:52 bloodwhore~ wrote:Some celebrations are in order, page 1000 has been reached! Show nested quote +I'm about to have a 3rd date with a girl and on the previous 2 dates I also paid for everything.
I don't mind, however I would've liked if she suggested paying half/paying for drinks after a meal. I might've paid for it all anyway, but the suggestion is nice.
Why don't you mind it? Curious why you wouldn't want her to pay for herself. Do you think she might leave you if she has to? Does it feel "manly"? Or are people in Belgium just stuck in old habits (if your country tag is correct)? This is a decent videon on this subject. Some dude who seems to be at a seminar with only women talking about dating. I think he brings out some very valid points and thoughts. Who Pays on a First Date? - Matthew Hussey, Get The Guy
I suppose in this particular scenario one of the reasons I don't mind is that I'm financially quite a bit better off than her as she's still a student.
Not sure if this is common in Belgium, I'd think the guy usually pays, I've had the discussion with my friends and opinions are split but in most scenarios it seemed the guy paid.
Though again, we're all dating younger girls who are still studying or recently graduated while we're already working so...
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So, there is a new girl in my roleplaying group, and she seems to be really interesting. Has been there for 3 evenings now and i can tell that without getting to know more of her, i will fall for her completely. The problem is, i would really like to let her settle in first. I don't want her to hit the new social circle and immediately be pounced upon. Because there is nothing worse in my mind then being a nuisance, even if having good intentions. The problem is that actually getting to know someone better in a roleplaying game, even though you only talk with each other all the time, is not that easy. Especially if you don't want to make it a public affair and include the whole group in your courting ritual. So i will play it veeeery slow, at some point ask her out, be rejected only to find out that i was 3 months too late. Or, after 3 months of fawning over the girl that actually talked about Starcraft with me, gonna be told that she actually is not interested at all. And my making this defeatist analysis of the situation i have already set me up for failing.
I am great at this
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Clearly, the best strategy is to woo her in-game via rolling a bard that can play some conspicuously worded songs that outline your nascent feelings for her.
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On August 14 2018 00:26 Broetchenholer wrote:So, there is a new girl in my roleplaying group, and she seems to be really interesting. Has been there for 3 evenings now and i can tell that without getting to know more of her, i will fall for her completely. The problem is, i would really like to let her settle in first. I don't want her to hit the new social circle and immediately be pounced upon. Because there is nothing worse in my mind then being a nuisance, even if having good intentions. The problem is that actually getting to know someone better in a roleplaying game, even though you only talk with each other all the time, is not that easy. Especially if you don't want to make it a public affair and include the whole group in your courting ritual. So i will play it veeeery slow, at some point ask her out, be rejected only to find out that i was 3 months too late. Or, after 3 months of fawning over the girl that actually talked about Starcraft with me, gonna be told that she actually is not interested at all. And my making this defeatist analysis of the situation i have already set me up for failing. I am great at this
That situation sucks. Especially in the roleplaying gaming community, which historically is pretty male-dominated (Though that seems to be changing nowadays, i think there roughly equal amounts of females in my immediate roleplaying surroundings).
Things get even more complicated because you play a character during a roleplaying game, but that character inherits a lot of your own attributes. That makes it really complicated to actually gauge stuff about people while playing the game, as you correctly identified.
My idea would be to try to find some non-roleplaying things that you can do. That can involve just talking about random shit before and after games, or just proposing random shit to do to the whole group. You said that you don't want to involve the whole group in "the courtship ritual", so don't make it the courtship ritual. Just do fun stuff with people you like. Propose stuff like "Hey, i'm going to go bouldering on saturday, anyone interested?" "I'd like to have a movie night with weird 80s movies" "Boardgames!!!" "Hey, i wanted to know what a 30km hike actually feels like, so i am doing that on sunday, who wants to come?" "Halloween party!" (All of which are things that happened in my roleplaying groups btw). Don't necessarily try to make it about her, just do stuff that you would enjoy anyways.
That being said, none of that is a very direct way to achieve your goal. But as you correctly identified, there isn't really a good way to do that without being kind of annoying to her and possibly introducing pretty shitty dynamics into the roleplaying group (And being "That guy" that is one of the reasons that women were pretty rare in roleplaying groups to begin with. It sucks if you just want to play a game and 5 dudes jump on you and try to date you.)
Though i must say that i am not really experienced in dating either. I got to know my girlfriend through random dumb luck and a lot of initiative on her part.
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On August 13 2018 19:52 bloodwhore~ wrote:Some celebrations are in order, page 1000 has been reached! Show nested quote +I'm about to have a 3rd date with a girl and on the previous 2 dates I also paid for everything.
I don't mind, however I would've liked if she suggested paying half/paying for drinks after a meal. I might've paid for it all anyway, but the suggestion is nice.
Why don't you mind it? Curious why you wouldn't want her to pay for herself. Do you think she might leave you if she has to? Does it feel "manly"? Or are people in Belgium just stuck in old habits (if your country tag is correct)?
Its a society thing I guess and depending on the surrounding you can get judged, even if yourself dont think about it. If you care about all that it is up to you ofc. I personally don't but I also don't mind about paying either. Current gf got a good approach to it though, first date she just leaned in and told me to pay and we split later which we stick to now for the most part, at least when its somewhat fancy where we go to. It definitely impressed me.
Unrelated question: does anyone still has the page where somone listed a ton of first date ideas? It came up at least twice but I didn't manage to find it and got someone who is in dire need of it.
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Last time I had a date I paid the bill but it was like 20 for both (it wouldn't be economically correct to convert currency and say 10 euros). So, it's not a big deal. Usually, my country is slightly more old-fashioned than the west, yet I'd met a girl who didn't want me to pay for her drink/food so it's mixed up. I wish there was consensus, but I'm more willing to pay for girl's food if she's still studying. If she's around my age, then she should earn enough even if my job is more likely to be better paid.
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Ya know, this grey area surrounding who pays for a date would make good fodder for breaking introductory ice while also giving both parties a sense of the other's expectations. Walkimg on eggshells so early on is just a recipe for staying in the dark, and if the other party reacts negatively to you broaching the subject, one can probably guess where things would go had you not brought it up in the first place.
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On August 14 2018 04:47 farvacola wrote:
Ya know, this grey area surrounding who pays for a date would make good fodder for breaking introductory ice while also giving both parties a sense of the other's expectations. Walkimg on eggshells so early on is just a recipe for staying in the dark, and if the other party reacts negatively to you broaching the subject, one can probably guess where things would go had you not brought it up in the first place.
I generally simply never have dates where I would feel the money was wasted if I end up paying and generally just ask if she would mind if I pay at some point. Men paying for dinner is still a lot more custom here in germany though, so I feel like its a good approach and it led to some good conversations indeed.
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