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All racist comments will result in a ban. Think well before posting. |
I still don't get it. It sounds like these guys aren't an actual race or physically distinguishable people. It sounds like they are just people who decide to be scumbags and steal/cheat/etc. How do people recognize them? People say that they aren't able to integrate into society because people always hate them, but what prevents them from just looking like everyone else?
Sorry for my ignorance, I'm just having a hard time understanding this whole issue.
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On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality.
But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive.
This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive)
This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
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On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote:People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that. The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads. If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists) Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm* Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. That's the problem. What's your solution?
As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives.
edit:
On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality. But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive) This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work. There are people from the gypsy community that try to better themselves, enroll in school, look for work and try to give their children a better future. They are met with ridicule, hatred and even violence, from their own peers.
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On September 28 2011 14:07 BlueStar wrote:For comparison I'll show u some pics of normal gypsy "block" and norman Bulgarian block: Fakulteto (the biggest gypsy block in bg) @ Sofia the capital. http://static2.novatv.bg/files/reportages/2673.jpgStolipinovo (the 2nd biggest) @ Plovdiv the 2nd biggest city: http://i.actualno.com/club.bg/files/2007/08/16/c098baa929.jpgNow some standart pics from those 2 cities: Sofia - Google search for pics @ Lozenec, SofiaPlovdiv - Pics from PlovdivU can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at... P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool".
Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate...
Los Angeles ghetto
Los Angeles ghetto
And oh look, this is Los Angeles as well...
Los Angeles
and...
Los Angeles
On September 28 2011 14:17 m00nchile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote:People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that. The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads. If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists) Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm* On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. That's the problem. What's your solution? As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives. edit: Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality. But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive) This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved. Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work.
So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post.
People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life".
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Most people probably tldr;ed the pdf that was posted here:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2011 14:12 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Relevant to what people are talking about recently. Throwing this in here, but a 2 second Google search of "Roma Employment Rates" yielded this study from 2006: http://europeandcis.undp.org/files/uploads/_rbec web/roma portal/ivan1.pdfIt might be a bit dated as it came before the recent economic struggles, and so might not be completely representative, but I doubt those could have had anything other than a negative effect on employment rates. As well, this talks about the effect of education, and if discrimination has anything to do with employment rates. Thought it might be useful, for most everyone lacking any relevant statistics.
so here you go:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xVfCG.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fEuLi.jpg)
also read the pdf for the reasons why the gypsies themselves think that they don't get jobs. Sadly there's no statistics as to the reasons that employers give for not hiring them.
Last but not least the Conclusion of the study:
C O N C L U S I O N
Roma unemployment rates are far below the 95–100 per cent levels that are often reported. Respondents often understand ‘employment’ to mean a ‘steady job’ rather than the broader notion of ‘income generating activities’. This explains why self-reported subjective unemployment rates often substantially exceed conventionally defined ones. Roma who are involved in non-wage income-generation activities, in the shadow economy or in subsistence agriculture, often describe themselves as unemployed. This is why subjective and broad unemployment rates differ substantially.
Despite extensive involvement in the informal economy, Roma households are heavily dependent on welfare payments and other central government transfers (pensions, child support, etc.). Roma youth are particularly vulnerable to unemployment. They run the risk of being permanently excluded from mainstream society and falling into the underclass. Long-term unemployment has profound, negative effects on the social fabric of Roma communities.
Poor employability is a key feature of life for the Roma. This is due to both discriminatory practices and to the low competitiveness of Roma workers. Poor educational opportunities today guarantee poor employment prospects tomorrow. Income generation projects that make use of traditional skills are unlikely to result in large reductions in unemployment.
Also the re-scaling of the graphs suggests a less than neutral position by the guys who made the study.
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On September 28 2011 14:17 m00nchile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote:People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that. The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads. If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists) Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm* On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. That's the problem. What's your solution? As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives. edit: Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality. But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive) This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved. Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work. There are people from the gypsy community that try to better themselves, enroll in school, look for work and try to give their children a better future. They are met with ridicule, hatred and even violence, from their own peers.
You still dont get it...
The fact that there are so many resources available to them yet they aren't taking advantage of it should be a clear sign that something is wrong.
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On September 28 2011 14:30 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:07 BlueStar wrote:For comparison I'll show u some pics of normal gypsy "block" and norman Bulgarian block: Fakulteto (the biggest gypsy block in bg) @ Sofia the capital. http://static2.novatv.bg/files/reportages/2673.jpgStolipinovo (the 2nd biggest) @ Plovdiv the 2nd biggest city: http://i.actualno.com/club.bg/files/2007/08/16/c098baa929.jpgNow some standart pics from those 2 cities: Sofia - Google search for pics @ Lozenec, SofiaPlovdiv - Pics from PlovdivU can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at... P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool". Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate... Los Angeles ghettoLos Angeles ghettoAnd oh look, this is Los Angeles as well... Los Angelesand... Los AngelesShow nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:17 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote:People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that. The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads. If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists) Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm* On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. That's the problem. What's your solution? As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives. edit: On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality. But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive) This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved. Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work. So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post. People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life".
I never inferred genetic inferiority or reccomended genocide. All I'm saying is they'll need a shift in their way of thinking. If they simply let their children attain an education the problem can be solved in a generation or less. As I said, some of them already do this and are ridiculed by their own community for their efforts. You haven't seen a gypsy woman rummage through trash while holding a baby only a few months old, I have. You haven't seen 8 or 9 year old children smoke and drink alcohol in the presence of their parents, I have. As I'm saying, even if the older population can't be swayed, giving their children an oportunity to lead a better life will fix the problem.
edit to Rundra:
You're the one who doesn't get it. It's not a minority that is being put down and forced to live in squalor, it's a minority that actively refuses any help given to them.
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On September 28 2011 14:35 m00nchile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:30 HereticSaint wrote:On September 28 2011 14:07 BlueStar wrote:For comparison I'll show u some pics of normal gypsy "block" and norman Bulgarian block: Fakulteto (the biggest gypsy block in bg) @ Sofia the capital. http://static2.novatv.bg/files/reportages/2673.jpgStolipinovo (the 2nd biggest) @ Plovdiv the 2nd biggest city: http://i.actualno.com/club.bg/files/2007/08/16/c098baa929.jpgNow some standart pics from those 2 cities: Sofia - Google search for pics @ Lozenec, SofiaPlovdiv - Pics from PlovdivU can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at... P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool". Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate... Los Angeles ghettoLos Angeles ghettoAnd oh look, this is Los Angeles as well... Los Angelesand... Los AngelesOn September 28 2011 14:17 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote:People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that. The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads. If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists) Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm* On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. That's the problem. What's your solution? As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives. edit: On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality. But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive) This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved. Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work. So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post. People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life". I never inferred genetic inferiority or reccomended genocide. All I'm saying is they'll need a shift in their way of thinking. If they simply let their children attain an education the problem can be solved in a generation or less. As I said, some of them already do this and are ridiculed by their own community for their efforts. You haven't seen a gypsy woman rummage through trash while holding a baby only a few months old, I have. You haven't seen 8 or 9 year old children smoke and drink alcohol in the presence of their parents, I have. As I'm saying, even if the older population can't be swayed, giving their children an oportunity to lead a better life will fix the problem. edit to Rundra: You're the one who doesn't get it. It's not a minority that is being put down and forced to live in squalor, it's a minority that actively refuses any help given to them.
I have seen incredibly young children smoking weed and doing even worse drugs. I'm not sure if they were 8 or 9 because I didn't exactly go up and ask them.
As for them rummaging through trash, of course they'll do that if they are impoverished. So she has a child? I realize you (at least supposedly, I trust you, just saying) are giving them opportunities, but for some reason they don't think this is going to lead them to living a healthier, happier life (Unless we want to believe they are all stupid), which means either A) There is a load of discrimination going on which makes them avoid the help or B) Past transgressions from people directed towards gypsies means they distrust you and means you may need to go further than you want to fix the problem.
Yes, the children deserve a better opportunity, stealing the children away isn't exactly an ideal solution, especially when they can just have more if they are doing it for the money. Obviously there has to be a mutual understanding that can be reached. If you come to them and immediately start looking at them as if they are stupid for not accepting your charity (especially if there's discrimination going on, or reason for distrust) or look at them as murderers or thieves of course you wont reach a positive solution.
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On September 28 2011 14:46 HereticSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:35 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 14:30 HereticSaint wrote:On September 28 2011 14:07 BlueStar wrote:For comparison I'll show u some pics of normal gypsy "block" and norman Bulgarian block: Fakulteto (the biggest gypsy block in bg) @ Sofia the capital. http://static2.novatv.bg/files/reportages/2673.jpgStolipinovo (the 2nd biggest) @ Plovdiv the 2nd biggest city: http://i.actualno.com/club.bg/files/2007/08/16/c098baa929.jpgNow some standart pics from those 2 cities: Sofia - Google search for pics @ Lozenec, SofiaPlovdiv - Pics from PlovdivU can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at... P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool". Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate... Los Angeles ghettoLos Angeles ghettoAnd oh look, this is Los Angeles as well... Los Angelesand... Los AngelesOn September 28 2011 14:17 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote:People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that. The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads. If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists) Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm* On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. That's the problem. What's your solution? As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives. edit: On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality. But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive) This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved. Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work. So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post. People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life". I never inferred genetic inferiority or reccomended genocide. All I'm saying is they'll need a shift in their way of thinking. If they simply let their children attain an education the problem can be solved in a generation or less. As I said, some of them already do this and are ridiculed by their own community for their efforts. You haven't seen a gypsy woman rummage through trash while holding a baby only a few months old, I have. You haven't seen 8 or 9 year old children smoke and drink alcohol in the presence of their parents, I have. As I'm saying, even if the older population can't be swayed, giving their children an oportunity to lead a better life will fix the problem. edit to Rundra: You're the one who doesn't get it. It's not a minority that is being put down and forced to live in squalor, it's a minority that actively refuses any help given to them. I have seen incredibly young children smoking weed and doing even worse drugs. I'm not sure if they were 8 or 9 because I didn't exactly go up and ask them. As for them rummaging through trash, of course they'll do that if they are impoverished. So she has a child? I realize you (at least supposedly, I trust you, just saying) are giving them opportunities, but for some reason they don't think this is going to lead them to living a healthier, happier life (Unless we want to believe they are all stupid), which means either A) There is a load of discrimination going on which makes them avoid the help or B) Past transgressions from people directed towards gypsies means they distrust you and means you may need to go further than you want to fix the problem. Yes, the children deserve a better opportunity, stealing the children away isn't exactly an ideal solution, especially when they can just have more if they are doing it for the money. Obviously there has to be a mutual understanding that can be reached. If you come to them and immediately start looking at them as if they are stupid for not accepting your charity (especially if there's discrimination going on, or reason for distrust) or look at them as murderers or thieves of course you wont reach a positive solution.
If they distrust us so much why not refuse welfare and free housing as well? Why is school the only area they don't wish to participate in if the issue is trust? As I already said, many minorities live in our area, even the ones that come from undeveloped parts of the Balkan peninsula find a way to earn their keep and give their children the oportunity to thrive. A good example would be ice cream shops and fast food joints, many of wich are owned and operated by minorities that came from areas that were neglected in ex-Yugoslavia. They do the best they can and give their children oportunities to do even better.
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Unfortunately, europeans feel justified in their hate of gypsies. To put into perspective, the romanian word for 'gypsy' is used interchangeably for the word 'nigger' (it was once upon a time, dunno about now). Considering individual experiences with them, this is understandable - I'm romanian myself and last time my mum went to visit her home town (first time back in 20-25 years) she was sitting in a cafe and a young gypsy child came up to her and asked her for some money. The shopkeeper made the kid piss off, those kind aren't allowed in places where respectable citizens eat. My mum wouldn't give him money because she's not a moron, but bought him a cake or sandwich or some shit: as soon as he got it he went down the road and gave it to his uncle or whoever was making the kid go out begging. This is the experience most people in europe have with gypsies.
The thing is, in australia, the indigenous population is in much the same situation as a result of decades of institutionalised racism (e.g. they only received the right to vote in the 70s and 80s). The implicit public view of aborigines is that they are criminal scum living off welfare handouts, wrecking whatever housing and facilities are provided for them, the same case of rejecting help that the europeans in this thread are citing (here, any aborigine that wants to enter higher education can do so for free and with no limits on entry ie. previous schooling, guess how many take that offer up?).
It is only recently that public consciousness has begun to acknowledge that the reason for this is not their race, but their position of disadvantage throughout history that has affected them so severely it is nearly part of their cultural psyche. Until this happens in europe, we will continue to see comments like 'you just don't understand or haven't met gypsies'. Do you know what gypsies are like in australia? They are normal people since they are removed from their shanty towns and godfathers and whatnot, and also removed from public prejudice since australians don't know anything about cultures overseas and never had a reason to hate on them.
Sorry for longwinded post, my dad grew up in bucharest around a lot of gypsies even ending up learning much of the language, and he found that if he showed them respect, they would do the same.
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Some points that I think were missed or not touched enough:
1. This whole thing was a media farse by Murdok's bTV media which is the biggest media in Bulgaria. It was blown out of proportion by a journalist(M. Benatova) who did a live report and basicly lied about what happend 1st night of the protests. Which in turn sparkled the biggest racist shitstorm Ive seen in Bulgaria. Cheap sensations! - thats bTV's motto.
2. Bulgarians are very racist people. Integration of gypsies is impossible at this moment as it were impossible in the last 100 years. Our politicians are using the term to throw dust in EU's eyes, like any of them care.
3. Kiril Rashkov aka Tzar Kiro is one of the most famous criminal outlaws in Bulgaria for the last 15 years. He has the local police on a payroll and doesnt give much of a shit about law. Funny thing is since hes controlling quite a big numbers of voters - our politicians really like to suck it up to him. Protests or not hes not gonna move out of that village.
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On September 28 2011 14:56 m00nchile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 14:46 HereticSaint wrote:On September 28 2011 14:35 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 14:30 HereticSaint wrote:On September 28 2011 14:07 BlueStar wrote:For comparison I'll show u some pics of normal gypsy "block" and norman Bulgarian block: Fakulteto (the biggest gypsy block in bg) @ Sofia the capital. http://static2.novatv.bg/files/reportages/2673.jpgStolipinovo (the 2nd biggest) @ Plovdiv the 2nd biggest city: http://i.actualno.com/club.bg/files/2007/08/16/c098baa929.jpgNow some standart pics from those 2 cities: Sofia - Google search for pics @ Lozenec, SofiaPlovdiv - Pics from PlovdivU can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at... P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool". Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate... Los Angeles ghettoLos Angeles ghettoAnd oh look, this is Los Angeles as well... Los Angelesand... Los AngelesOn September 28 2011 14:17 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote:People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that. The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads. If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists) Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm* On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. That's the problem. What's your solution? As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives. edit: On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture. Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people. And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation. Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe. No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are. Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie? Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school. This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality. But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive) This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved. Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work. So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post. People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life". I never inferred genetic inferiority or reccomended genocide. All I'm saying is they'll need a shift in their way of thinking. If they simply let their children attain an education the problem can be solved in a generation or less. As I said, some of them already do this and are ridiculed by their own community for their efforts. You haven't seen a gypsy woman rummage through trash while holding a baby only a few months old, I have. You haven't seen 8 or 9 year old children smoke and drink alcohol in the presence of their parents, I have. As I'm saying, even if the older population can't be swayed, giving their children an oportunity to lead a better life will fix the problem. edit to Rundra: You're the one who doesn't get it. It's not a minority that is being put down and forced to live in squalor, it's a minority that actively refuses any help given to them. I have seen incredibly young children smoking weed and doing even worse drugs. I'm not sure if they were 8 or 9 because I didn't exactly go up and ask them. As for them rummaging through trash, of course they'll do that if they are impoverished. So she has a child? I realize you (at least supposedly, I trust you, just saying) are giving them opportunities, but for some reason they don't think this is going to lead them to living a healthier, happier life (Unless we want to believe they are all stupid), which means either A) There is a load of discrimination going on which makes them avoid the help or B) Past transgressions from people directed towards gypsies means they distrust you and means you may need to go further than you want to fix the problem. Yes, the children deserve a better opportunity, stealing the children away isn't exactly an ideal solution, especially when they can just have more if they are doing it for the money. Obviously there has to be a mutual understanding that can be reached. If you come to them and immediately start looking at them as if they are stupid for not accepting your charity (especially if there's discrimination going on, or reason for distrust) or look at them as murderers or thieves of course you wont reach a positive solution. If they distrust us so much why not refuse welfare and free housing as well? Why is school the only area they don't wish to participate in if the issue is trust? As I already said, many minorities live in our area, even the ones that come from undeveloped parts of the Balkan peninsula find a way to earn their keep and give their children the oportunity to thrive. A good example would be ice cream shops and fast food joints, many of wich are owned and operated by minorities that came from areas that were neglected in ex-Yugoslavia. They do the best they can and give their children oportunities to do even better.
Well, by your words they also don't want to work (At least in the sense of a conventional job), so schooling isn't the only area, "they neglect". Accepting welfare and sending your child to a schooling system that will direct hate and other discriminatory feeling towards, potentially to the extent that your child isn't even able to learn properly is another story. Keep in mind, even if things are improving today they may still have that past in their memory. It isn't their job to make themselves trust you, it's your job to facilitate that, at least if you want to coexist peacefully.
Remember, if they were in the exact same position and weren't accepting that welfare they wouldn't all magically obtain jobs, if everyone thinks the theft and murder is bad now then it could only get much worse if that was there only option to obtain food to exist. That or starve. Yes, some of them would potentially get jobs, but given the exact same situation a majority of them wouldn't.
You have to keep in mind that the gypsies are the gypsies and not anyone else, maybe other minorities have had similar experiences but keep in mind that gypsies associated amongst themselves likely more than they did with other people and therefore if there was a negative view of the outside world that very easily could have been perpetuated. That view needs to be fixed.
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On September 28 2011 12:29 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 12:22 Euronyme wrote:On September 28 2011 11:39 decemberTV wrote:On September 28 2011 11:26 Medrea wrote:On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote:On September 28 2011 11:17 discodancer wrote:On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote:
Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem. Okay now I tell You a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise. So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work. So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them. Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved. I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here. Ok well all of that I completely agree with pretty much 100 percent. I think this topic took a REAL bad turn when Cloud took the dump of his life all over it. I forgot to add that French / Dutch / British / Italian and Spanish gorvenments have also been helpless in solving the problem. In fact the French government DEPORTED gipsies back to Romania / Bulgaria by airplane instead of "integrating them into society". Dunno if airplanes come off as fancy to you, but that's how you deport people.. You don't exactly put them at the closest border and hope they don't come back. Deportation is legio when illegal immigrants are considered not having enough reason to flee their homeland, as it's not illegal to deport economic immigrants in contrast to polotic ones. About the France example. The deportations have been called a disgrace by the EU, and it's been said that legal action will be taken against France. The camps were indeed illegal though. Personally I think that all the hate the romanis have recieved the 700 years or so have shaped them somewhat to be more aggressive towards society. The enslavement of Africans went on for 200 years or so, whereas the enslavement of Romas went on for more than three times that, and yet there was basically no attempt of apologizing. To me it's fucking disgusting that some (and I literally feel filthy for living on the same continent as these people) seem to see it fit that romanis are victims of further prosecution. If only you would at least take the time to read what i've written. And you should be ashamed of yourself that as a EU citizen and with Sweden a full member of the EU for so long you have no idea that EU citizens cannot be forcefully moved under ANY circumstances since they are not immigrants within EU borders. The french ended up paying off all the gipsies with their own money so they will never be legal action against france and nor was it "illegal on paper". They would not be so dumb. But the most i am surprised by your lack of knowledge on how the EU works. Sweden has been a member state for alot longer than Romania / Bulgaria; they really should teach you this stuff in schools.
That's what you read from that? That's.. interesting.. See I was talking about the age old prosecution of Romas, and how they deserve better lives than they have now.
It's interesting that after ww2 antisemetism got extremely tabu, and the jewish population got a new country on top of an existing one as an apology or something along those lines, and the Roma people got forced sterilization by governments in Eastern Europe.
The membership of Sweden in the EU is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. FYI I was practically finished with school when this law was passed, and there are tonnes of loops holes around it regardless. Also the EU has never been too popular here (52% vote), so it's not like most people are too interested anyway.
About the French case you are obviously clueless.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11301307
It was illegal because the EU values a 0 tolerance to racism (something someone with your extentive knowledge of the EU should take a serious look into).
This will be my last post here as this is simply too saddening for me to read.
Edit: I don't understand the argument of them not being educated. Isn't it illegal not to go to school from atleast ages 7-15 in all first world countries?
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So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way?
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My uncle here in Sweden used to own a petrol station and he told me that everytime a gypsy woman and her children went into the store the whole personel would have to keep an eye on them, most of the time things were missing anyway, gypsys are expert shoplifters.
He got to know a gypsy that had broken out of the gypsy community and was selling cars, he told my uncle 99% of all gypsys were not to be trusted.
Unfortunatley he was shot to death by another gypsy family outside a hotell, it was quite a commotion when it happened as things like that is'nt that common around here.
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On September 28 2011 15:48 BronzeHero wrote:
My uncle here in Sweden used to own a petrol station and he told me that everytime a gypsy woman and her children went into the store the whole personel would have to keep an eye on them, most of the time things were missing anyway, gypsys are expert shoplifters.
He got to know a gypsy that had broken out of the gypsy community and was selling cars, he told my uncle 99% of all gypsys were not to be trusted.
Unfortunatley he was shot to death by another gypsy family outside a hotell, it was quite a commotion when it happened as things like that is'nt that common around here.
As I said, the people who try to lead a different and better life are met with hatred and sometimes even violence from their own community. It's just more proof that the mentality shift needs to occur in the gypsy community, we already dish out plenty of help.
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On September 28 2011 08:12 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Jeasus fucking christ. I thought Americans were the most racist people on earth, I am grossly mistaken. Europeans acctually belive that Gypsies are an inerior breed of human and treat them like crap. I only read the first 3 pages and every single euro poster should be banned based on the warning.
The gypsie problem? What problem? The one where you treat a group of people like crap for 500 years and now you wanna get rid of them? The problem is you. Maybe if they had a chance to live normally noone would care.
I wanted to stay of this thread, but couldnt handle myself, because of posts like this.
We treat gypsies like crap? Here are few things our country has made for them through the years :
- absolutely free education, high school and university. FREE. the percent of gypsies finished high school is maybe 3-4%.
- free medical care. FREE. Every month there are hepatitis A epidemies in their ghetos.
- free land to build houses, or even build them apartment buildings to live in. Here is what is left of it after few years :
+ Show Spoiler +
- social support in the form of money
- free electricity, water, heat
- social programs especialy made for their ethnic group which sole purpose is to find them work
etc, etc.
No one has treated them like crap, but exactly the opposite for soooooo many years. There is no one rather than us Bulgarians who wants more these people to integrate, but its impossible.
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On September 28 2011 15:43 Takezou wrote:
So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way?
No, this is what an immigration problem looks like after integration failed for centuries. There are no easy solutions anymore.
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On September 28 2011 16:05 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 15:43 Takezou wrote:
So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way? No, this is what an immigration problem looks like after integration failed for centuries. There are no easy solutions anymore.
Are you claiming that for centuries the Gypsies were treated well and yet did not integrate?
Or is it that Gypsies fro centuries faced the same bigotry that so many Europeans show towards them in this thread.
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On September 28 2011 16:15 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:05 Maenander wrote:On September 28 2011 15:43 Takezou wrote:
So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way? No, this is what an immigration problem looks like after integration failed for centuries. There are no easy solutions anymore. Are you claiming that for centuries the Gypsies were treated well and yet did not integrate?
Yes, thats the case.
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