On September 28 2011 17:15 BlueStar wrote: You are right cause i used too strong words. But when a human is affected by something it tends to use such words. If u try to look at the things by the eyes of the sufferers and you may understand.
In historical plan Bulgaria had one of the strongest economies for it's size before let's say 1930. If u trace the demographic statistics u'll see the rate of births and the low level of gypsies. And this is one of the major clues to get to the point.
You know what happened shortly after 1930 right? The world economy did a major free fall into near oblivion then some guy named Hitler started WW2.
I told u. Just google for pics with the words "цигани в България" (gypsies in Bulgaria). And imagine this is the way it is not beacause of racism or anything else. It's just because this part of the society is like trash. (I don't want to be understanded wrong) When u go to the garbage and u see 1t of trash there will be few things which can be useful or just left there cause they have something to substitute them. But overall everything is trash... METAPHORE don't attack me for the strong words.
Yes but the fact is it is racism, because you assume they are trash because of race. In reality they are no different from white trash junkie scumbags that we see on our streets, assaulting and raping people. No one cries about them because that's just regular crime committed by white trash (here we have a lot of white trash scum, I'm sure it's the same in the US). But when these acts are performed by a minority, it gets blamed on their race as opposed to them just being scum.
I find this topic hard to discuss in a “politically correct” way. On one hand I understand that obviously the race is not the issue here ( I’m yet to be convinced that so many people can be hard-wired to steal, rape, kill, wtv ) but rather the way that society treats them… but on the other hand I am weary ( to say the least ) of them when I see one on the street…The fact is that right now, no matter what the cause is, chances are that they are dangerous, for that is their place in society atm and so I end up being part of the problem. It’s a vicious cycle I don’t see way out of… I mean, I had a family of gypsies “living” in a ruined house next to me that the owner was too lazy to demolish. They’ve set that thing on fire 5 freaking times and one time it was really serious… And then I’m literally ashamed/scared to go out of my country and say that I’m Romanian because of the image these people gave us. A fresh start doesn’t really seem to be the solution, since they’ve had plenty of fresh starts in Italy and what not, only to end up in “gipsy camps”. It’s true that over time, the public’s image of them got progressively worse but I think that at the same time their society changed to reflect what others thought of them so it’s going to be really hard to make a change.
On September 28 2011 17:15 BlueStar wrote: You are right cause i used too strong words. But when a human is affected by something it tends to use such words. If u try to look at the things by the eyes of the sufferers and you may understand.
In historical plan Bulgaria had one of the strongest economies for it's size before let's say 1930. If u trace the demographic statistics u'll see the rate of births and the low level of gypsies. And this is one of the major clues to get to the point.
You know what happened shortly after 1930 right? The world economy did a major free fall into near oblivion then some guy named Hitler started WW2.
for the people calling out for racism all the way from across the ocean. You should understand that gipsy is a behavior, not a race. No one will spit on a modest gipsy that tries to make a living by working decently. it's not their ethnicity that is a concern, it's the way they live their lives, opposing everything that a decent society stands for. Gypsies are the lowest social class in europe, absolute bottom, and they're not trying to be better, at all.
US anti-racism heroes should see this:
go to minute 5:50 if you don't have time to see it
On September 28 2011 17:21 Manimal_pro wrote: for the people calling out for racism all the way from across the ocean. You should understand that gipsy is a behavior, not a race. No one will spit on a modest gipsy that tries to make a living by working decently. it's not their ethnicity that is a concern, it's the way they live their lives, opposing everything that a decent society stands for. Gypsies are the lowest social class in europe, absolute bottom, and they're not trying to be better, at all.
US anti-racism heroes should see this:
go to minute 5:50 if you don't have time to see it
You think it is a unique case? Here, the indigenous population has a life expectancy 20-30 years lower than everyone else and literally live in third world conditions right under our noses, despite government throwing incredible sums of money at them (if you try and find exactly how much of the budget goes towards aboriginal affairs, you won't be able to get a solid figure, that information is well hidden, because there would be an outcry among regular citizens). The opinion of the masses is that they are lazy, uneducated, and predisposed to violence and criminality, this was even the implicit opinion that previous governments held.
The truth is that when a person is shat on, they in turn proceed to shit on people, be it outsiders or their own children. It is a shame that this behaviour is associated with their race as a whole, rather than associated with their social standing.
for anyone complaining about racism, the biggest problem is not that they commit many crimes in order to sustain themselves. as i said in my previous post, unnecessary bestiality is oftenly attached to those crimes. i could go on and link hundreds of pages where elderly people were _raped_, _enslaved_, beaten brutally to death and so on... obviously the news sites dont write "the offender was a gypsy", but for anyone who lives here it pretty easy to decide wether it was a gypsy or not just by looking to the location where it happened. there is already hundred of villages in hungary, where everyone who could, just already escaped years before, only a few elder people stayed who dont have any kind of family to help them move. now when an elder man being found _on a chain(!!)_, with serious injurys i think its pretty obvious that, not an other elder man did it to him... its my opinion, but crime have to face punishment, however bestiality have to face retaliation. and im not the only one. people hear about these news every day, and being fed up with this shit. as i said, we are at the brink of a civil war.
now, the other problem is organized crime. this video is happened at Siofok, the most popular turist place in the summer, where every store, bar, club etc have to pay a share for a gypsy maffia leader. what will happen if they dont pay? why dont just go to the police? well this will happen:
this was just a little power demonstration. after that, noone was accused. the police didnt even go there, since theyre in their pockets aswell.
most hungarians just ask themselves: if authorities failed so much, who will help us solve the issue? and the consesus is, we have to act until we are the majority. the country was founded more than 1000 years ago, and we may not defeated everyone trying to opress us, but surely survived the tatar, ottomans, communists... if we have to, we will defend our country with our own blood, and as the authorities turned their back on us, its seems like this is all what remained.
On September 28 2011 12:01 Gremlin wrote: Ok, discodancer, you are implying what we did was based on racism and prejudices. How would you handle it?
(i'm the guy with the story that you retold)
I read his story, don't worry 100% he is a child with no sense of the world outside of his cartoon make believe world where everyone is nice to everyone
:3
I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
The selling children as brides thing aint a Gypsy exclusive thing. Its done in some Arab countrys aswell as in parts of Africa.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
On September 28 2011 17:55 Orcasgt24 wrote: Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
The selling children as brides thing aint a Gypsy exclusive thing. Its done in some Arab countrys aswell as in parts of Africa.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
but when a minority (you) have a specific view with no understanding of anything, it surely has to be right isnt it? you forget that, africans been brought to the US against their own will, and was enslaved and threated like a second grade human. now, gypsys came here at their own will, and at the top of that have more privilages than a born hungarian. so in fact, were treated like second grade in our country. for example if i want to go to a university and i can prove one of my grandparents are roma, i get extra points for qualification... what do you think about that? the two situation does not compare, as america hurted black communities a lot, so they have the right to claim some sort of an endorsement as a compensation.
i think i can speak behalf of every hungarians here, but i wouldnt be more happy and consider the situation solved if they would integrate into society. however despite all the help they got in the last 20 years, the situation only got worse. its not the skin color, nationality or anything like that is the problem, its the lifestyle which is dont cope with european standards. i have many friends, including vietnamese, chinese, syrian, russian. they _never_ faced any kind of racism. you would think the russian would be a hard case, since communism only collapsed 23 years ago, and as you know soviets did a lot of bad for this country. how come, despite all this a russian family never faced any kind of hate or disrespecting in this country? they came here in the early 90s, where wounds were still very fresh, and didnt spoke a single word of hungarian. however when i asked them how did they get along, they just said despite all their expectations they never hear a single bad word about their origins.
On September 28 2011 17:55 Orcasgt24 wrote: Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
The selling children as brides thing aint a Gypsy exclusive thing. Its done in some Arab countrys aswell as in parts of Africa.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
Thats nonsense. You cant make parallel between the two. Black people were enslaved for centuries without any rights. Gypsies have always had the same rights as any other citizen of the country. They have never been enslaved, abused, always had the right to vote etc.
Why do some people in here insist that calling gypsy CULTURE bad is racism? NO ONE in here (except for Cloud who is a genuine racist) is saying "you are a gypsy and therefore you are a thief". People are saying "you are a gypsy and practice the gypsy culture and therefore you have a very very high chance of being a thief". No one in their right mind would generalize a whole ethnic group of people as scum. It is however completely acceptable to generalize a CULTURE as a culture that promotes people turning into scum. There is not a single Eastern European in this thread that has said anything positive about gypsies (THE CULTURE NOT THE RACE).
I don't live near gypsies (gypsies that practice the gypsy culture, I couldn't care less about what race someone is) and have never been in contact with any. But boy, am I glad my country doesn't have much (if any at all) gypsies (and for the last time, I don't mean the RACE I mean the CULTURE).
Please stop mistaking attacks on gypsy culture as racism. I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud actually being racist. I have seen, however, loads of North Americans who for some reason just cannot understand the problem these gypsies pose (I've never been in contact with them, but hey, who am I going to believe? Some randoms from NA who've never seen a single gypsy in their life or the overwhelming amount of Eastern Europeans who actually live with these people).
As for solution to the problem, I couldn't have less of a clue. And as for the actual topic of this thread, it seems like corruption is part of the gypsy problem and solving the corruption will go a long way to solving the gypsy problem too. It also seems like gypsies are given enough chances and help as it is, but they just don't want to accept it.
i think i can speak behalf of every hungarians here, but i wouldnt be more happy and consider the situation solved if they would integrate into society. however despite all the help they got in the last 20 years, the situation only got worse. its not the skin color, nationality or anything like that is the problem, its the lifestyle which is dont cope with european standards. i have many friends, including vietnamese, chinese, syrian, russian. they _never_ faced any kind of racism. you would think the russian would be a hard case, since communism only collapsed 23 years ago, and as you know soviets did a lot of bad for this country. how come, despite all this a russian family never faced any kind of hate or disrespecting in this country?
^
Another thing, I never knew the problem was this big (in fact I didn't even know there was a problem at all). I'm pretty astounded by this thread.
I am not racist at all but those gipsys are biggest fucking worthless piece of shit i have ever seen. They don't send their kids to school (free basic education), they actually teach them how to steal. They make as many kids as possible, because they get more money from the country. 75 % of them don't even want to work at all. They are just taking money from state welfare and bitching about racism.
It even went so far, that the law is not equal for them and "white czech citizen", because the courts are all scared of being acused of racism from US and EU. This has to stop, i would let those people live in the same neigbourhood with gipsys for a week and we will see who is racist then.....seriously
Here in frankfurt we have a problem with 8 year old gypsy children stealing everything they can. I lived in an immigrant area 2 years ago and right next to us was a house full of gypsys. I did not have much contact with them, but I always saw them when shopping for food. They would go in groups of 10 into the supermarket. Their fat girls would form a circle before the food and let their children stuff everything in their pockets. Then theyd go to the cashier and complain that everything is so expensive and leave. The staff couldnt stop them because If they did the rest of the family came and caused a ruckus. A police officer told me he doesnt want to stop gypsys violating the speed limit because if he does stop them they make one call and another 100 gypsys show up. Gypsys are the only reason I was opposed to letting the south eastern europeans countries in the EU.
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
Oh, and your great country was very successful, it deported them back where they came from. GJ, now where would the rest of us deport them?
I told u. Just google for pics with the words "цигани в България" (gypsies in Bulgaria). And imagine this is the way it is not beacause of racism or anything else. It's just because this part of the society is like trash. (I don't want to be understanded wrong) When u go to the garbage and u see 1t of trash there will be few things which can be useful or just left there cause they have something to substitute them. But overall everything is trash... METAPHORE don't attack me for the strong words.
Yes but the fact is it is racism, because you assume they are trash because of race. In reality they are no different from white trash junkie scumbags that we see on our streets, assaulting and raping people. No one cries about them because that's just regular crime committed by white trash (here we have a lot of white trash scum, I'm sure it's the same in the US). But when these acts are performed by a minority, it gets blamed on their race as opposed to them just being scum.
Gypsy is not a race.
Yes it is? It's the way a lot of English-speaking people refer to those of the Romani ethnic group. It's freaking weird though, I always thought being a gyspy was a way of life/culture rather than an ethnic group before this.
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
When I did a wiki search on the term, it only came up
the Romani people, an ethnic group popularly referred to as gypsies.
Unlike the N word page, where it actually talks about the negative side of term.
Edit: I also just did a dictionary search too, so I don't know where you get the idea from?
Because over time the name became used with a negative connotation. People call others "gypsies" when trying to insult towards being a cheat, uneducated, disrespectful.
On September 28 2011 17:55 Orcasgt24 wrote: Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
The selling children as brides thing aint a Gypsy exclusive thing. Its done in some Arab countrys aswell as in parts of Africa.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
but when a minority (you) have a specific view with no understanding of anything, it surely has to be right isnt it? you forget that, africans been brought to the US against their own will, and was enslaved and threated like a second grade human. now, gypsys came here at their own will, and at the top of that have more privilages than a born hungarian. so in fact, were treated like second grade in our country. for example if i want to go to a university and i can prove one of my grandparents are roma, i get extra points for qualification... what do you think about that? the two situation does not compare, as america hurted black communities a lot, so they have the right to claim some sort of an endorsement as a compensation.
I don't forget the context of african americans arrival.
Your example of university is not that different from the kind of privilages natives get in canada.
How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
EPT
