On November 19 2011 01:12 oHInsane wrote: I will just put my thoughts here:
Imagine you invite 4 friends to eat a pie, you cut it in 5 pieces, give 1 to your 4 friends and keep 4 for you alone. It would be ok if the pie could grow bigger, but it's no longer possible.
That's the world we're living in.
I'm not saying i have the ultimate solution for this, but to me, it looks a bit broken as a logic.
This logic is just plain false because we do not live in a zero sum world. Each of us adds value with the work we do.
Someone adds value by picking the apples, by milling the flower, by building that over, by combining the ingredients to make the pie.
The conflict comes in the value of work done. Anyone and everyone has the skills required to pick an apple. A smaller subset of people can figure out how to build the oven to bake the pie, or how to combine the ingredients to make the most delicious apple pie.
So since fewer people can perform those tasks, they become more valuable and then we have the unequal distribution of wealth.
And in the case you show above if your friends simply show up to your house and had nothing to do with making the pie while it would be rude to only share 1 piece with them at the end of the day they are 1 piece of pie richer and did nothing to deserve it.
Sad thing is that a lot of the people who are making the oven or making the best pie are being completely fucked over by people with the most money and power
That wasn't "being assaulted by police". That was a demonstration of how law enforcement handles "physically non-compliant" people. The cop gave verbal commands. Commands ignored. The cop pushed (physical coercion) to compel compliance. Physical resistance. The next step in the Use of Force Model is non-lethal force, including batons to the body, pepper spray, taser, etc. In this case, a baton was used. It's really that fucking simple. If you don't understand how law enforcement is trained in the Usage of Force, you should learn, because it's the basis upon which they are judged in court. Also, they are judged by the "reasonable officer" standard, not the "reasonable person" or "unreasonable hippie" standard.
That wasn't "being assaulted by police". That was a demonstration of how law enforcement handles "physically non-compliant" people. The cop gave verbal commands. Commands ignored. The cop pushed (physical coercion) to compel compliance. Physical resistance. The next step in the Use of Force Model is non-lethal force, including batons to the body, pepper spray, taser, etc. In this case, a baton was used. It's really that fucking simple. If you don't understand how law enforcement is trained in the Usage of Force, you should learn, because it's the basis upon which they are judged in court. Also, they are judged by the "reasonable officer" standard, not the "reasonable person" or "unreasonable hippie" standard.
Oh? They train police to chase after people while hitting them with batons? And then to hit them while they're lying on the ground? And you don't see the problem with this?
That wasn't "being assaulted by police". That was a demonstration of how law enforcement handles "physically non-compliant" people. The cop gave verbal commands. Commands ignored. The cop pushed (physical coercion) to compel compliance. Physical resistance. The next step in the Use of Force Model is non-lethal force, including batons to the body, pepper spray, taser, etc. In this case, a baton was used. It's really that fucking simple. If you don't understand how law enforcement is trained in the Usage of Force, you should learn, because it's the basis upon which they are judged in court. Also, they are judged by the "reasonable officer" standard, not the "reasonable person" or "unreasonable hippie" standard.
Oh? They train police to chase after people while hitting them with batons? And then to hit them while they're lying on the ground? And you don't see the problem with this?
Of course he wouldn't. However, if the cops did this to a Tea Party member, he would be all up in arms talking about the "corrupt and socialist cops" and how everything would be "Obama's fault".
That wasn't "being assaulted by police". That was a demonstration of how law enforcement handles "physically non-compliant" people. The cop gave verbal commands. Commands ignored. The cop pushed (physical coercion) to compel compliance. Physical resistance. The next step in the Use of Force Model is non-lethal force, including batons to the body, pepper spray, taser, etc. In this case, a baton was used. It's really that fucking simple. If you don't understand how law enforcement is trained in the Usage of Force, you should learn, because it's the basis upon which they are judged in court. Also, they are judged by the "reasonable officer" standard, not the "reasonable person" or "unreasonable hippie" standard.
However reasonable, it seemed a bit like lashing out on behalf of the officer. When I see footage like this, I can't help but think of the Stanford Prison Experiment. I'm sure these officers are all normal people, but put anybody in these circumstances and you'll have a least some minority acting like we just saw in that video.
That wasn't "being assaulted by police". That was a demonstration of how law enforcement handles "physically non-compliant" people. The cop gave verbal commands. Commands ignored. The cop pushed (physical coercion) to compel compliance. Physical resistance. The next step in the Use of Force Model is non-lethal force, including batons to the body, pepper spray, taser, etc. In this case, a baton was used. It's really that fucking simple. If you don't understand how law enforcement is trained in the Usage of Force, you should learn, because it's the basis upon which they are judged in court. Also, they are judged by the "reasonable officer" standard, not the "reasonable person" or "unreasonable hippie" standard.
However, breaking line to do it and extremely agressively beating him is not normal procedure as far as I know. It is pretty clear that the cop completely lost his temper and let his rage take over and that is far outside protocol. The pushing with the lines before is completely fine and they could even have given the kid more of a beating without getting me worked up at all. However 1 on 1 you don't need to use that kind of force, especially not when there is no appearent reason! If the cop can get penalized for what he did is another issue entirely. Morally he did not have any high-ground.
Anybody else feel that they've done nothing so far to swing the public debate towards real reform? I really like the movement and some of the underlying ideas they represent, but they seem to be increasingly a source of drama more than action. Meanwhile, nothing in DC is changing, and Wall Street seems the same as well (but that's no real surprise). Maybe it's still too young to show real progress, but I feel we're just banging heads against walls.
That wasn't "being assaulted by police". That was a demonstration of how law enforcement handles "physically non-compliant" people. The cop gave verbal commands. Commands ignored. The cop pushed (physical coercion) to compel compliance. Physical resistance. The next step in the Use of Force Model is non-lethal force, including batons to the body, pepper spray, taser, etc. In this case, a baton was used. It's really that fucking simple. If you don't understand how law enforcement is trained in the Usage of Force, you should learn, because it's the basis upon which they are judged in court. Also, they are judged by the "reasonable officer" standard, not the "reasonable person" or "unreasonable hippie" standard.
Oh? They train police to chase after people while hitting them with batons? And then to hit them while they're lying on the ground? And you don't see the problem with this?
Of course he wouldn't. However, if the cops did this to a Tea Party member, he would be all up in arms talking about the "corrupt and socialist cops" and how everything would be "Obama's fault".
I won't lie, I'd like to punch some of these cops square in the nose. I wouldn't last long at one of those events before my temper landed me in jail.
Oregonians form square (Napoleonic reference) against mounted police:
well if history teaches us anything is that to get out of slavery one needs to sheed blood and/or kill/imprison his master. when i see people in here posting about how they expect a reform/change/debate or some purpose like a common goal or a list of demands from the occupying ppl, it makes me laugh. i mean really what would you want to happen?. how do you see this movement "getting fixed"?. how can you trust those 1% to doing the right thing?. do you hope that all of a sudden theyll find their humanity and start carrying about you?, really?...
this shit is big. it cant be patched up. youre either with them untill heads will roll or against them untill blood will pour.
On November 19 2011 19:40 xM(Z wrote: well if history teaches us anything is that to get out of slavery one needs to sheed blood and/or kill/imprison his master. when i see people in here posting about how they expect a reform/change/debate or some purpose like a common goal or a list of demands from the occupying ppl, it makes me laugh. i mean really what would you want to happen?. how do you see this movement "getting fixed"?. how can you trust those 1% to doing the right thing?. do you hope that all of a sudden theyll find their humanity and start carrying about you?, really?...
this shit is big. it cant be patched up. youre either with them untill heads will roll or against them untill blood will pour.
There's two diametrically opposed philosphies when it comes to movements like this. Looking back to the Civil Rights movement of the '60's, you had Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X for example. It makes me wonder if the non-violent approach can work by itself or not. I certainly admire those that have the willpower to demonstrate that way. I'd probably be "that guy" that Fox and the PD use as a poster boy after punching some dickhead cop and unable to hold my temper.
The guy in a post above saying that the riot cop was doing his job when he pummeled that man to the ground then proceeded to club him over and over (looked like alongside some of his other goons) is beyond delusional there's no convincing these kinds of people and you should give up trying. Use the thread to shed light and post more videos, articles, and witness accounts. Don't fill it up with useless arguing. There will always be crazy people who come into threads and into the world even with incredibly distorted views on reality. If you ignore them then you won't give them a reason to continue throwing this thread off its course. And that is to bring these terrible acts against humanity by little blue men with little blue hats, feeling so brave and powerful behind their 20 pounds of riot gear and gas canisters and all the other things illegal for us to use on them but they can use it on us. If they wanna treat us like the enemy like this is a warzone than at least let us fight fair.
Honestly tho it just became clear to me why they insist on escalating these conflicts. THEY ARE TRYING SO HARD EVERY DAY BY BEATING US DOWN WITH THEIR "NON-LETHAL" WEAPONS THAT INJURE PEOPLE WITHIN AN INCH OF THEIR LIVES.... THEY DO IT ALL SO THAT EVENTUALLY ONE OF OUR FELLOW PROTESTORS WILL ARM THEMSELVES. AND THEN WHEN THE BOMB GOES OFF INA CROWD OF POLICE OR A GUN GOES OFF IN SELF DEFENSE FROM A CATTLE PROD.... THEN they will demonize this movement until it loses more and more public support. They WILL continue to hide the truth and not show any of these videos on a major news network regularly or even at all.... but the instant in which a peaceful person just wanting to defend himself or his friend from being savagely beaten or maced or electrocuted it will be ALL over the news on EVER channel all day every day the same clip or if they dont even have a clip to prove it they'll make it up and play the same story every hour on the hour. Because we may be the 99% but we're fighting against the people who control 100% of the world. And unless the sheep suddenly wake up from their years of brainwashing from watching TV shows that dumb them down, reading and watching the news that only dumb them down, and even listening to music on the radio that dumbs them down, drinking alcohol that dumbs them down, and keeping drug use at an all time high by keeping it illegal and not educating about the real dangers like when they did with tobacco and people stopped smoking and it was banned from bars. They want you on drugs so you're too chilled out, or fucked up, or ON THEIR LEGAL PILLS THAT MY DAD AN AUNT ARE ADDICTED TO WHO CAN BARELY FUNCTION LIKE VALIUM. Everything they have to offer is simply to oppress the people and to keep us as their slaves that they never wanted to get rid of and never had to. Why do you think Lincoln was assassinated?? Why do you think Kennedy was as well?? They wanted to start cleaning up this country and this world and prove that good will triumph over evil.
"keep them doped with religion and sex and tv, and you think you're so clever and classless and free"- Lennon(Lives) He loved NYC "cause that's where its all happening" maybe he didn't know directly back then but maybe he did.... maybe he was organizing something like this way back when they started trying to have him deported and his phone's were tapped.
That wasn't "being assaulted by police". That was a demonstration of how law enforcement handles "physically non-compliant" people. The cop gave verbal commands. Commands ignored. The cop pushed (physical coercion) to compel compliance. Physical resistance. The next step in the Use of Force Model is non-lethal force, including batons to the body, pepper spray, taser, etc. In this case, a baton was used. It's really that fucking simple. If you don't understand how law enforcement is trained in the Usage of Force, you should learn, because it's the basis upon which they are judged in court. Also, they are judged by the "reasonable officer" standard, not the "reasonable person" or "unreasonable hippie" standard.
Oh? They train police to chase after people while hitting them with batons? And then to hit them while they're lying on the ground? And you don't see the problem with this?
Of course he wouldn't. However, if the cops did this to a Tea Party member, he would be all up in arms talking about the "corrupt and socialist cops" and how everything would be "Obama's fault".
I won't lie, I'd like to punch some of these cops square in the nose. I wouldn't last long at one of those events before my temper landed me in jail.
Did they seriously just cattle prod that man who was PLANTING AN AMERICAN FLAG and then PUNCH an elderly woman in the head during the second video??
I post so many of these videos I find depicting the worst of the atrocities and put so much time into writing up paragraphs trying to at least spark a discussion. Out of the 30+ times mentioning the occupy movement I'd say around 3 people even left a single sentence comment on it. And this is a daily basis kindof thing. My generation just does not give a fuck for the most part they care more about who has the best parties and who goes to the most parties who posts the most pictures of going to clubs than they care about THE WORLD AROUND THEM. They're such the definition of blind fucking sheep. 2012.... come and take us. I'm so ready to get into the place where our collective consciousness just erases these cancerous tumors of conscious thought.
^Did you really just use the word "atrocities" to describe these videos? That seems a little insulting to people that have been victims of real atrocities.
On November 20 2011 02:22 BlackJack wrote: ^Did you really just use the word "atrocities" to describe these videos? That seems a little insulting to people that have been victims of real atrocities.
Assaulting people because they want their freedom is not an atrocity?
And you seriously suggest calling something like this an atrocity is insulting to victims of other atrocities?
That wasn't "being assaulted by police". That was a demonstration of how law enforcement handles "physically non-compliant" people. The cop gave verbal commands. Commands ignored. The cop pushed (physical coercion) to compel compliance. Physical resistance. The next step in the Use of Force Model is non-lethal force, including batons to the body, pepper spray, taser, etc. In this case, a baton was used. It's really that fucking simple. If you don't understand how law enforcement is trained in the Usage of Force, you should learn, because it's the basis upon which they are judged in court. Also, they are judged by the "reasonable officer" standard, not the "reasonable person" or "unreasonable hippie" standard.
Oh? They train police to chase after people while hitting them with batons? And then to hit them while they're lying on the ground? And you don't see the problem with this?
Of course he wouldn't. However, if the cops did this to a Tea Party member, he would be all up in arms talking about the "corrupt and socialist cops" and how everything would be "Obama's fault".
I won't lie, I'd like to punch some of these cops square in the nose. I wouldn't last long at one of those events before my temper landed me in jail.
That wasn't "being assaulted by police". That was a demonstration of how law enforcement handles "physically non-compliant" people. The cop gave verbal commands. Commands ignored. The cop pushed (physical coercion) to compel compliance. Physical resistance. The next step in the Use of Force Model is non-lethal force, including batons to the body, pepper spray, taser, etc. In this case, a baton was used. It's really that fucking simple. If you don't understand how law enforcement is trained in the Usage of Force, you should learn, because it's the basis upon which they are judged in court. Also, they are judged by the "reasonable officer" standard, not the "reasonable person" or "unreasonable hippie" standard.
From browsing through this thread, I can tell that StealthBlue is a big fan of the "cops are brutalizing people" angle. I'm wondering if he gets this kind of stuff emailed to him, or if he searches for it online.
You are right, when people refuse to follow lawful police orders, the police have NO CHOICE but to use force to enforce the law.
If I was a part of this movement, I would take some fucking personal responsibility for my behavior. I would say, "yes, they told me to leave, and yes, I stayed, knowing full well there was a chance I would get gassed or jabbed or pushed or arrested. I knowingly took that risk, so I have no right to whine about it occurring."
But we all know that isn't how the victimization train is run.
Probasaur, you accuse people of being delusional then you go on a rant about brainwashing, medication, etc. I hope you sit down and think about that for a while.
I don't agree with this movement at all. I live very well. I eat good food, have shelter, friends and family, a good education etc. I come from a pretty poor family and I myself am very poor after 7 years of university. Yet I don't feel oppressed. I'm blessed to have everything I have because to be honest I'm lazy. In a just world, I'd be dead or living in real poverty because I haven't worked hard enough to be a great person. That description fits the majority of people protesting about the world being unfair.
People have such an undeserved sense of entitlement. We already get more in general than we deserve for our limited work (40 hours a week in general is not really too much). Some people work 100x harder than you and get less. Some work hard, get lucky and make millions. Some inherit the money from their parents who went through the same thing. Somewhere down the line, someone made that money through hard work. If you're talking about illegal drug money or money from royal families, that's another story but that's not really the reason of protest here.
Some jobs pay more then others. In general, no one is refused education. I needed to put myself through large debt to get education, and you can do the same if you want to. I have decent job prospects and even gave up some great job prospects in the past do to something I enjoyed more.
We are free to choose our own path. Most people protesting are well off. Some people have a harder life, but it's a general rule of thumb that if you work hard, apply yourself to everything you do and try hard to build connections, you will end up alright. There are some exceptions; some people have terrible luck and end up in bad situations. But most people end up their of their own fault. I meet people daily that can't even perform basic jobs, yet bitch constantly that they aren't appreciated blah blah blah.
So what if some people have more money than you? It doesn't make them happier. It doesn't make them worse people than you either. The world is a good place and that's because the people in charge do a decent job. Everyone wants to be a billionaire that can do anything he wants. Reality check, we have billions of people on this planet and most everyone taking part in these protests are part of the lucky ones that have everything handed down to them.
Do I think every law is completely fair, or that everything in is perfect order? No, of course not. But we have a good thing going on overall. The people in charge try hard to keep things going normally which people seem to think is easy.
Overall, I don't see a need to protest when I've never been true real hardships like people in 3rd world countries.
The thing is, our situation is not as bad as it was in the Arab countries. Not enough people are jobless or care enough to actually go out there and join the movement. It's mainly about what can you offer me and what can I contribute to that.
On November 20 2011 02:22 BlackJack wrote: ^Did you really just use the word "atrocities" to describe these videos? That seems a little insulting to people that have been victims of real atrocities.
Assaulting people because they want their freedom is not an atrocity?
And you seriously suggest calling something like this an atrocity is insulting to victims of other atrocities?
EPT![[image loading]](http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/374709_316988011650201_316804355001900_1551942_775484111_n.jpg)
