[Old] The massacre in Norway - Page 83

Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect!

nymfaw

Norway430 Posts

July 24 2011 04:37 GMT

#1641

I think in Norway we need politicans who realise the world is not a peaceful place even if you are protected by something as huge as NATO.. This man almost literally parked his car inside our prime ministers office, what kind of safety is that? Guards at a political event this size not carrying guns?

I dont think this man was a psychopath, I think all he wants is to change history. His video includes several facts, among other things, that Muslims will be majority in Europe before people will realize .. Of course, this culture clash looking at things in a historical perspective will not go peacefully.

(My english is very poor and I hope mods dont misunderstand. I do not support terrorism)

banana

Netherlands1189 Posts

July 24 2011 04:49 GMT

#1642

Reading his manifesto, seems he's actually not concerned with going to jail. The most shocking thing is that he actually wants his lawyer to help him express his view points and why he did what he did. To elaborate, his scenario he sketched is wholy based on the fact he'd be pled guilty, but the whole trail is ment to be used as a tool.

If you read it his whole point is actually to cause this massive shock and get media attention and then share his deranged view point on society. I'm not looking forward to monday if they decide to air it or cover it, since it will just give him exactly what he wanted.

I mean jail is ment as a punishment, but how do you deal with someone who is willing to go to jail for his crimes. I don't see death as an option either, he does not deserve an easy way off this.

HellRoxYa

Sweden1614 Posts

July 24 2011 04:51 GMT

#1643

On July 24 2011 13:49 banana wrote:
Reading his manifesto, seems he's actually not concerned with going to jail. The most shocking thing is that he actually wants his lawyer to help him express his view points and why he did what he did. If you read it his whole point is actually to cause this massive shock and get media attention and then share his deranged view point on society. I'm not looking forward to monday if they decide to air it or cover it, since it will just give him exactly what he wanted.

I mean jail is ment as a punishment, but how do you deal with someone who is willing to go to jail for his crimes. I don't see death as an option either, he does not deserve an easy way off this.

You make him go to jail and give him as little attention as possible. Personally though I'm very interested in what he has to say, so I hope they do cover it.

On July 24 2011 13:02 cz wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 24 2011 12:59 VanGarde wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:55 cz wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:53 Badboyrune wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:41 Shikyo wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment?

Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner.

Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years.

edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less.

Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases.

But that's not how it works. They can't just go against their justice system and determine he's dangerous to society if he's spent over 10 years in prison very well mannered. Yes, he'd be completely gaming the system and it's very likely he's going to continue with another crime of the sort. He has most likely studied the Norwegian law and knows this as well.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and they might be able to just decide to keep him there at will, but I have a feeling that it's not that easy.

What are the requirements for the 21 year sentence to be extended, anyway ? I can't find proper information in English.

As far as I understand the only requirement for him to go into 'Forvaring' is that he is deemed a danger to society. I suspect that the people doing this evaluation will consist at least partly by psychologists. Seeing how psychopathy is generally considered incurable I find it hard to believe that any psychologist would ever deem a psychopath that's already killed over 80 people not to be a threat to society.

Do we know he's a psychopath? Psychopaths don't feel empathy. Going on a mass murder spree like this doesn't require you to be a psychopath, it just requires you to feel something that makes you think killing 80+ people is worth it.

There is little in his behavior that suggests psychopathy really. He shows evidence of having very strong convictions in an ideology, emotional convictions, strong hatred for groups that he feels symbolizes the enemies of his ideology. This is not at all in line with psychopathy where the person suffering from it is as you say incapable of experiencing emotion. It is also worth pointing out that a psychopath is not by default a murderer or criminal either, in fact there lives many people among us who are psychopaths and no one ever knows and they never commit a crime in their life.

He also sees himself as defending Norway from Islamicization, and knows he'll go to jail or die after doing what he did, but did it anyway. Psychopaths tend to be very selfish and not care about anyone or anything else besides themselves and dominating others, so his act, which is ideologically motivated and leads to him going to prison / getting killed is not in line with that. From his perspective it's a selfless act that puts himself in danger to save the culture/nation. Not at all a usual psychopaths selfish motivation.

Interesting. I'd argue that he's doing it for himself, though. For the fame or just for making himself feel important.

Badboyrune

Sweden2247 Posts

July 24 2011 04:57 GMT

#1644

On July 24 2011 13:10 cz wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 24 2011 13:07 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:53 cz wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:

On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:

You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia....

Wikipediea. Schmikipedia. Blah. Blah. Blah.

No.

Use your brain. He will not be released. Period. He will be held indefinitely and they will just say "nope, not reformed yet - give him another 5 years" - regardless of how awesome/nice/intellectual/polite he is.

He. Killed. Eighty. Helpless. People.

End of story. He rots.

Problem is there doesn't seem to be a way to use the murder of 80 helpless people to up the prison sentence, nor do I think it legally has an effect when parole comes up. They just take a look at how he is THEN and make their decision based on psychological interviews / prison history and so on. They really can only keep him in through A) passing new laws specifically for him or B) being corrupt. Either way, assuming they do keep him in, it'll show how legitimate these "rehabilitate-first" laws - their effects bragged about across the world - are: prison as punishment is terrible/inhumane until your kid/country gets killed.

?

Not worth my time. I don't even know where to. Nevermind.

He's a psychopath to the worst extreme. End of. He'll rot in prison or in some institution. He will never walk the streets as a free man.

How do you know he was a psychopath? His actions don't fit that of a normal psychopath, who are very selfish and like to dominate others for their own power and challenge. He just seems very passionate, strongly believing in his views, to the point that he thinks killing other Norweigans is worth it. Psychopaths don't feel empathy, so they fundamentally have no problem hurting/killing people. But this event was emotional, seems to be driven by ideological anger.

You can be a very bad person without being a psychopath.

If I'm not mistaken psychopaths do feel emotions, just not empathy or any emotions related to it. Anger and even fear doesn't seem too uncommon but only against things that they consider to be a threat, annoyance or any other displeasure to themselves.

If he consider that he seems to consider him being Norwegian as possibly the most important part of himself and that he considered cultural Marxists or whatever he called them to be a serious threat against Norwegians it's possible that he actually acted out of a selfishness as much, or more, as out of ideological reasons.

It could possibly also be that he actually felt some kind of attachment to Norway as a country, maybe to only thing ever felt some kind of attachment for, in which case it would also be a largely selfish act.

Maybe this is stretching it a bit, but it's hard to deny that he has at least some behavioural features that suggests psychopathy. The obvious one is a lack of empathy but there's also the manipulativeness, the narcissism and the apparent charm that are also fairly safe to assume. It's possible to read even more into it but you would have to make some assumptions that are not as safe to assume based on what we know about him at the moment.

AndAgain

United States2621 Posts

July 24 2011 05:02 GMT

#1645

It has probably been mentioned, but I just read that Norway's toughest punishment is 21 years in prison. Sounds like heaven for someone who wants to make a political point in this manner.

Edit: ok, I guess that's not exactly the case. It said "Norway's toughest sentence is 21 years in jail" in this article, and that's it. http://news.yahoo.com/norway-suspect-deems-killings-atrocious-needed-013354792.html

Ksi

357 Posts

July 24 2011 05:04 GMT

#1646

On July 24 2011 14:02 AndAgain wrote:
It has probably been mentioned, but I just read that Norway's toughest punishment is 21 years in prison. Sounds like heaven for someone who wants to make a political point in this manner.

...and just one page later the cycle repeats itself.

Bobble

Australia1493 Posts

July 24 2011 05:06 GMT

#1647

you should read the OP, yes, the maximum punishment is 21 years, but with forvaring, which is a system which, if the criminal is deemed unfit for society, they can be jailed for another 4 years, and so on, and so on.

ThePhan2m

Norway2750 Posts

July 24 2011 05:09 GMT

#1648

Why did he surrender? Why is he alive? I think he plans to watch his "work" grow, and one of the part of the plan was to get recognized. Now when he is a famous and people read his manifesto with his idealism. He wants to get others like him inspired and fired up for this cause. Hopefully nothing will grow out of this, but we have seen before, that one shooting will inspire others. Especially when it is this kind of a "success" with so little resources. (Bombs out of fertilizer, which pretty much anyone can do)

Gnax

Sweden490 Posts

July 24 2011 05:17 GMT

#1649

On July 24 2011 14:09 ThePhan2m wrote:
Why did he surrender? Why is he alive? I think he plans to watch his "work" grow, and one of the part of the plan was to get recognized. Now when he is a famous and people read his manifesto with his idealism. He wants to get others like him inspired and fired up for this cause. Hopefully nothing will grow out of this, but we have seen before, that one shooting will inspire others. Especially when it is this kind of a "success" with so little resources. (Bombs out of fertilizer, which pretty much anyone can do)

What he didn't think about is that the police, FBI, etc. will also read that manifesto and it will bring their attention to everything in there. Also, this information and research that he has done is not only gonna help anti-muslim-terrorists but also muslim-terrorists.

He will obviously not get what he wants in the end, no matter how much attention he gets.

hotbreakfest

United States145 Posts

July 24 2011 05:23 GMT

#1650

On July 24 2011 14:06 Bobble wrote:

Show nested quote +

What I'm worried about is the potential loop holes. The guy gets his 21 years and then acts like he's reformed. I'm sure there is probably a lot more to this, but the fact that he has a chance at dodging a life sentence bothers me a lot. Maybe someone who is savvy with Norway's legal system can fill me in.

Gnax

Sweden490 Posts

July 24 2011 05:32 GMT

#1651

On July 24 2011 14:23 hotbreakfest wrote:

Show nested quote +

Stop arguing about this. It's been like 20 pages now. He will never be released to the society ever. Are you high or something?

United States3249 Posts

July 24 2011 05:37 GMT

#1652

On July 24 2011 14:32 Gnax wrote:

Show nested quote +

Stop arguing about this. It's been like 20 pages now. He will never be released to the society ever. Are you high or something?

lol

Don't say stop arguing and then offer your position within that same paragraph.

hotbreakfest

United States145 Posts

July 24 2011 05:39 GMT

#1653

On July 24 2011 14:32 Gnax wrote:

Show nested quote +

Stop arguing about this. It's been like 20 pages now. He will never be released to the society ever. Are you high or something?

Well sorry that I haven't read all 83 pages. No need to resort to insults.

Deja Thoris

South Africa646 Posts

July 24 2011 05:40 GMT

#1654

No matter what the current laws are, they will be changed in light of this. He will never get out of jail.

Caller

Poland8075 Posts

July 24 2011 05:45 GMT

#1655

The sad thing is some of the things he says in the manifesto are actually legitimate concerns, and people are going to associate people who believe in freedom of speech with this guy.

Personally, I'm amazed that he was so dedicated to his cause and yet is either remarkably good at copy pasting from wikipedia or well read. He identifies himself as conservative, but he is really a reactionary.

SuperYo1000

United States880 Posts

July 24 2011 05:48 GMT

#1656

take a potato peeler to his skin. Wont kill him but its a start at justice.

United States3249 Posts

July 24 2011 05:51 GMT

#1657

On July 24 2011 14:45 Caller wrote:
The sad thing is some of the things he says in the manifesto are actually legitimate concerns, and people are going to associate people who believe in freedom of speech with this guy.

Personally, I'm amazed that he was so dedicated to his cause and yet is either remarkably good at copy pasting from wikipedia or well read. He identifies himself as conservative, but he is really a reactionary.

I'm surprised he didn't think things through - when I first thought this was an Islamic terrorist attack, I thought it would really push the right-wing parties in Europe even more strongly. I feel his attack though has damaged his own cause. On the other hand it might spur more action towards it.

Caller

Poland8075 Posts

July 24 2011 05:54 GMT

#1658

On July 24 2011 14:51 cz wrote:

Show nested quote +

Upon further reading of his manifesto while his views of Cultural Marxism are actually well read, his indictments of Islam seem to be more hastily put together in order to back his view without it seeming like there are inaccuracies regarding his sources. If he really wanted to make the manifesto legit he wouldn't put hyperlinks of his sources in the middle of the manifesto. In other words, he's that type of crazy.

ComusLoM

Norway3547 Posts

July 24 2011 06:02 GMT

#1659

http://twitter.com/#!/danwootton look at this disgraceful cunts twitter.

Gnax

Sweden490 Posts

July 24 2011 06:02 GMT

#1660

I just read in his manifesto that he was listening to Lux Aeterna by Clint Mansell on repeat while he killed all those kids.

Thanks for ruining an awesome song for me, now I will never be able to listen to that song without thinking about that :S

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