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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
Everyone who reads and study history knows what extreminism is and why it occurs. I dont think this is surprising at all.
I wonder what will happen next...
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On July 24 2011 12:53 Badboyrune wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:41 Shikyo wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. But that's not how it works. They can't just go against their justice system and determine he's dangerous to society if he's spent over 10 years in prison very well mannered. Yes, he'd be completely gaming the system and it's very likely he's going to continue with another crime of the sort. He has most likely studied the Norwegian law and knows this as well. Of course, I could be completely wrong and they might be able to just decide to keep him there at will, but I have a feeling that it's not that easy. What are the requirements for the 21 year sentence to be extended, anyway ? I can't find proper information in English. As far as I understand the only requirement for him to go into 'Forvaring' is that he is deemed a danger to society. I suspect that the people doing this evaluation will consist at least partly by psychologists. Seeing how psychopathy is generally considered incurable I find it hard to believe that any psychologist would ever deem a psychopath that's already killed over 80 people not to be a threat to society.
Do we know he's a psychopath? Psychopaths don't feel empathy. Going on a mass murder spree like this doesn't require you to be a psychopath, it just requires you to feel something that makes you think killing 80+ people is worth it.
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I can believe how far he went for his manifesto...
Why Norway? Of all countries in the world, why that peaceful country...
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On July 24 2011 12:53 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:50 VanGarde wrote:
If the Norwegian prison system is anything like the Swedish then yes life sentence is not really "life" but somewhere between 15 and 20 years but that is just a starting kit if you will. You can get a sentence where after those initial years you don't actually get out but you have to be cleared for release and if you are deemed still a danger to society you stay in jail for another set of years, and there is no limit on how many times that can be extended. Mental patients could certainly be in an institution for life. I feel like it would philosophically just for this man to have a life sentence in the military.
Yes, because planting a slave among the volunteers of the defense of a nation is a great and just idea.
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On July 24 2011 12:41 Badboyrune wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window. You completely missed the "When the sentence is almost up, the persons behavior and current situation will be reaccessed, and if he is deemed fit to go back to society, he will be let into society. If he is deemed unfit, he can be put into another 5 years of Forvaring. This process repeats until the person is either let back into society, or he dies." part in the OP?
The thing is the metrics used to determine safety are usually a joke. You hear about that guy in Canada who randomly beheaded the guy sitting in front of him on a greyhound bus? He was out within a year because of psychiatric progress or whatnot after being not mentally fit to stand trial. Psychologists are very pliable: if you are intelligent and say what they want to hear, they will report you to be safe to the community. That or there will be some level of corruption, which is the other option, but that thoroughly invalidates the entire Norweigan justice system.
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On July 24 2011 12:55 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:53 Badboyrune wrote:On July 24 2011 12:41 Shikyo wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. But that's not how it works. They can't just go against their justice system and determine he's dangerous to society if he's spent over 10 years in prison very well mannered. Yes, he'd be completely gaming the system and it's very likely he's going to continue with another crime of the sort. He has most likely studied the Norwegian law and knows this as well. Of course, I could be completely wrong and they might be able to just decide to keep him there at will, but I have a feeling that it's not that easy. What are the requirements for the 21 year sentence to be extended, anyway ? I can't find proper information in English. As far as I understand the only requirement for him to go into 'Forvaring' is that he is deemed a danger to society. I suspect that the people doing this evaluation will consist at least partly by psychologists. Seeing how psychopathy is generally considered incurable I find it hard to believe that any psychologist would ever deem a psychopath that's already killed over 80 people not to be a threat to society. Do we know he's a psychopath? Psychopaths don't feel empathy. Going on a mass murder spree like this doesn't require you to be a psychopath, it just requires you to feel something that makes you think killing 80+ people is worth it.
There is little in his behavior that suggests psychopathy really. He shows evidence of having very strong convictions in an ideology, emotional convictions, strong hatred for groups that he feels symbolizes the enemies of his ideology. This is not at all in line with psychopathy where the person suffering from it is as you say incapable of experiencing emotion. It is also worth pointing out that a psychopath is not by default a murderer or criminal either, in fact there lives many people among us who are psychopaths and no one ever knows and they never commit a crime in their life.
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On July 24 2011 12:53 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia.... Wikipediea. Schmikipedia. Blah. Blah. Blah. No. Use your brain. He will not be released. Period. He will be held indefinitely and they will just say "nope, not reformed yet - give him another 5 years" - regardless of how awesome/nice/intellectual/polite he is. He. Killed. Eighty. Helpless. People. End of story. He rots. Problem is there doesn't seem to be a way to use the murder of 80 helpless people to up the prison sentence, nor do I think it legally has an effect when parole comes up. They just take a look at how he is THEN and make their decision based on psychological interviews / prison history and so on. They really can only keep him in through A) passing new laws specifically for him or B) being corrupt. Either way, assuming they do keep him in, it'll show how legitimate these "rehabilitate-first" laws - their effects bragged about across the world - are: prison as punishment is terrible/inhumane until your kid/country gets killed.
For this to hold up you need to make the assumption that he's either actually cured in 21 years or duped trained psychologists, who are more than likely very familiar with both his past history and the manipulative nature of psychopaths, and everyone else evaluating his case into thinking he is cured. Only then would they have to pass new laws or be corrupt to keep him locked up. I highly doubt any of that would actually happen
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On July 24 2011 12:59 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:55 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:53 Badboyrune wrote:On July 24 2011 12:41 Shikyo wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. But that's not how it works. They can't just go against their justice system and determine he's dangerous to society if he's spent over 10 years in prison very well mannered. Yes, he'd be completely gaming the system and it's very likely he's going to continue with another crime of the sort. He has most likely studied the Norwegian law and knows this as well. Of course, I could be completely wrong and they might be able to just decide to keep him there at will, but I have a feeling that it's not that easy. What are the requirements for the 21 year sentence to be extended, anyway ? I can't find proper information in English. As far as I understand the only requirement for him to go into 'Forvaring' is that he is deemed a danger to society. I suspect that the people doing this evaluation will consist at least partly by psychologists. Seeing how psychopathy is generally considered incurable I find it hard to believe that any psychologist would ever deem a psychopath that's already killed over 80 people not to be a threat to society. Do we know he's a psychopath? Psychopaths don't feel empathy. Going on a mass murder spree like this doesn't require you to be a psychopath, it just requires you to feel something that makes you think killing 80+ people is worth it. There is little in his behavior that suggests psychopathy really. He shows evidence of having very strong convictions in an ideology, emotional convictions, strong hatred for groups that he feels symbolizes the enemies of his ideology. This is not at all in line with psychopathy where the person suffering from it is as you say incapable of experiencing emotion. It is also worth pointing out that a psychopath is not by default a murderer or criminal either, in fact there lives many people among us who are psychopaths and no one ever knows and they never commit a crime in their life.
He also sees himself as defending Norway from Islamicization, and knows he'll go to jail or die after doing what he did, but did it anyway. Psychopaths tend to be very selfish and not care about anyone or anything else besides themselves and dominating others, so his act, which is ideologically motivated and leads to him going to prison / getting killed is not in line with that. From his perspective it's a selfless act that puts himself in danger to save the culture/nation. Not at all a usual psychopaths selfish motivation.
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On July 24 2011 12:59 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:41 Badboyrune wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window. You completely missed the "When the sentence is almost up, the persons behavior and current situation will be reaccessed, and if he is deemed fit to go back to society, he will be let into society. If he is deemed unfit, he can be put into another 5 years of Forvaring. This process repeats until the person is either let back into society, or he dies." part in the OP? The thing is the metrics used to determine safety are usually a joke. You hear about that guy in Canada who randomly beheaded the guy sitting in front of him on a greyhound bus? He was out within a year because of psychiatric progress or whatnot after being not mentally fit to stand trial. Psychologists are very pliable: if you are intelligent and say what they want to hear, they will report you to be safe to the community. That or there will be some level of corruption, which is the other option, but that thoroughly invalidates the entire Norweigan justice system.
It is very presumptuous of you to invalidate an entire justice system not just of Norway but all Scandinavian countries and possibly most of western Europe. It is also quite naive to think that psychologists who work in criminal justice and spend their career assessing hardened criminals and mentally disturbed criminals are so easily fooled. These people deal with very intelligent criminals all the time. To assert that they can just be tricked like any street psychiatrist is to make a lot of assumptions.
There are bound to be mistakes made some times, but overall these people do this for a living.
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On July 24 2011 13:01 Badboyrune wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:53 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia.... Wikipediea. Schmikipedia. Blah. Blah. Blah. No. Use your brain. He will not be released. Period. He will be held indefinitely and they will just say "nope, not reformed yet - give him another 5 years" - regardless of how awesome/nice/intellectual/polite he is. He. Killed. Eighty. Helpless. People. End of story. He rots. Problem is there doesn't seem to be a way to use the murder of 80 helpless people to up the prison sentence, nor do I think it legally has an effect when parole comes up. They just take a look at how he is THEN and make their decision based on psychological interviews / prison history and so on. They really can only keep him in through A) passing new laws specifically for him or B) being corrupt. Either way, assuming they do keep him in, it'll show how legitimate these "rehabilitate-first" laws - their effects bragged about across the world - are: prison as punishment is terrible/inhumane until your kid/country gets killed. For this to hold up you need to make the assumption that he's either actually cured in 21 years or duped trained psychologists, who are more than likely very familiar with both his past history and the manipulative nature of psychopaths, and everyone else evaluating his case into thinking he is cured. Only then would they have to pass new laws or be corrupt to keep him locked up. I highly doubt any of that would actually happen
Then you must be new. It happens all the time. Psychologists don't have much to work with besides what the patient says: if he says the right things in the right voice, they can't do much other than make their conclusions. There are no real objective tests in psychology for determining danger to a community: it's all gathered from self-reported data from the patient/criminal himself. So if he says the right things, how can they say no?
I actually had this debate with Kwark a year or two ago with respect to a Canadian murder on a greyhound. The guy brutally murdered (decapitated) the guy sitting in front of him while on a bus trip, despite not knowing/talking to the guy. At the point of my convo with Kwark the guy had been declared unfit to stand trial and sent to a mental home: I predicted he'd be out soon. He's now out and about in the community, after having been declared healthy. Absolutely brutal murder of an innocent person, and psychologists let him out. Say the right things, look the right way, and you control the data they receive. The data they receive fits into a rubric to determine their conclusions and recommendations. This guy controls all the data that he gives out, and he seems smart enough to do be able to do it.
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On July 24 2011 10:42 cellblock wrote:
The whole massacre and bombing event seems to be a "PR-trick" to ultimately get alot of people to read his manifesto.
Which is also why you seriously should not read it. Not because of anything in it, or any other reason except that this guy killed a lot of innocent people to promote this thing. That alone is reason enough to not touch it.
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On July 24 2011 12:53 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia.... Wikipediea. Schmikipedia. Blah. Blah. Blah. No. Use your brain. He will not be released. Period. He will be held indefinitely and they will just say "nope, not reformed yet - give him another 5 years" - regardless of how awesome/nice/intellectual/polite he is. He. Killed. Eighty. Helpless. People. End of story. He rots. Problem is there doesn't seem to be a way to use the murder of 80 helpless people to up the prison sentence, nor do I think it legally has an effect when parole comes up. They just take a look at how he is THEN and make their decision based on psychological interviews / prison history and so on. They really can only keep him in through A) passing new laws specifically for him or B) being corrupt. Either way, assuming they do keep him in, it'll show how legitimate these "rehabilitate-first" laws - their effects bragged about across the world - are: prison as punishment is terrible/inhumane until your kid/country gets killed.
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Not worth my time. I don't even know where to. Nevermind.
He's a psychopath to the worst extreme. End of. He'll rot in prison or in some institution. He will never walk the streets as a free man. Not sure what you are having trouble with here. The system is fine and it will enable his imprisonment/confinement/whatever til he dies.
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On July 24 2011 13:03 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:59 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:41 Badboyrune wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window. You completely missed the "When the sentence is almost up, the persons behavior and current situation will be reaccessed, and if he is deemed fit to go back to society, he will be let into society. If he is deemed unfit, he can be put into another 5 years of Forvaring. This process repeats until the person is either let back into society, or he dies." part in the OP? The thing is the metrics used to determine safety are usually a joke. You hear about that guy in Canada who randomly beheaded the guy sitting in front of him on a greyhound bus? He was out within a year because of psychiatric progress or whatnot after being not mentally fit to stand trial. Psychologists are very pliable: if you are intelligent and say what they want to hear, they will report you to be safe to the community. That or there will be some level of corruption, which is the other option, but that thoroughly invalidates the entire Norweigan justice system. It is very presumptuous of you to invalidate an entire justice system not just of Norway but all Scandinavian countries and possibly most of western Europe. It is also quite naive to think that psychologists who work in criminal justice and spend their career assessing hardened criminals and mentally disturbed criminals are so easily fooled. These people deal with very intelligent criminals all the time. To assert that they can just be tricked like any street psychiatrist is to make a lot of assumptions. There are bound to be mistakes made some times, but overall these people do this for a living.
Then we disagree. We'll just have to see how it all turns out.
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On July 24 2011 13:07 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:53 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia.... Wikipediea. Schmikipedia. Blah. Blah. Blah. No. Use your brain. He will not be released. Period. He will be held indefinitely and they will just say "nope, not reformed yet - give him another 5 years" - regardless of how awesome/nice/intellectual/polite he is. He. Killed. Eighty. Helpless. People. End of story. He rots. Problem is there doesn't seem to be a way to use the murder of 80 helpless people to up the prison sentence, nor do I think it legally has an effect when parole comes up. They just take a look at how he is THEN and make their decision based on psychological interviews / prison history and so on. They really can only keep him in through A) passing new laws specifically for him or B) being corrupt. Either way, assuming they do keep him in, it'll show how legitimate these "rehabilitate-first" laws - their effects bragged about across the world - are: prison as punishment is terrible/inhumane until your kid/country gets killed. ? Not worth my time. I don't even know where to. Nevermind. He's a psychopath to the worst extreme. End of. He'll rot in prison or in some institution. He will never walk the streets as a free man.
How do you know he was a psychopath? His actions don't fit that of a normal psychopath, who are very selfish and like to dominate others for their own power and challenge. He just seems very passionate, strongly believing in his views, to the point that he thinks killing other Norweigans is worth it. Psychopaths don't feel empathy, so they fundamentally have no problem hurting/killing people. But this event was emotional, seems to be driven by ideological anger.
You can be a very bad person without being a psychopath.
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On July 24 2011 13:10 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 13:07 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:53 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia.... Wikipediea. Schmikipedia. Blah. Blah. Blah. No. Use your brain. He will not be released. Period. He will be held indefinitely and they will just say "nope, not reformed yet - give him another 5 years" - regardless of how awesome/nice/intellectual/polite he is. He. Killed. Eighty. Helpless. People. End of story. He rots. Problem is there doesn't seem to be a way to use the murder of 80 helpless people to up the prison sentence, nor do I think it legally has an effect when parole comes up. They just take a look at how he is THEN and make their decision based on psychological interviews / prison history and so on. They really can only keep him in through A) passing new laws specifically for him or B) being corrupt. Either way, assuming they do keep him in, it'll show how legitimate these "rehabilitate-first" laws - their effects bragged about across the world - are: prison as punishment is terrible/inhumane until your kid/country gets killed. ? Not worth my time. I don't even know where to. Nevermind. He's a psychopath to the worst extreme. End of. He'll rot in prison or in some institution. He will never walk the streets as a free man. How do you know he was a psychopath? His actions don't fit that of a normal psychopath, who are very selfish and like to dominate others for their own power and challenge. He just seems very passionate, strongly believing in his views, to the point that he thinks killing other Norweigans is worth it. Psychopaths don't feel empathy, so they fundamentally have no problem hurting/killing people. But this event was emotional, seems to be driven by ideological anger. You can be a very bad person without being a psychopath.
Then you'll know that an intelligent psychopath is also second to no one in the realm of manipulation. You'll know that an intelligent psychopath has no criminal record (until he does something horrendous) due to stupid, small blunders. You'll know that only a psychopath can justify that amount of emotionless (re: blank face, cold, calculated) slaughter - all the while deluding himself that it's for some "greater cause" --> a cause that in fact IS VERY SELFISH. Think about it.
But no, I'll go with your earlier answer to someone else. It's easier:
We'll see [how it turns out].
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On July 24 2011 12:41 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. But that's not how it works. They can't just go against their justice system and determine he's dangerous to society if he's spent over 10 years in prison very well mannered. Yes, he'd be completely gaming the system and it's very likely he's going to continue with another crime of the sort. He has most likely studied the Norwegian law and knows this as well. Of course, I could be completely wrong and they might be able to just decide to keep him there at will, but I have a feeling that it's not that easy. What are the requirements for the 21 year sentence to be extended, anyway ? I can't find proper information in English.
But as he is described now he sounds like a pretty normal man(apart from the masacre ofcourse), and he did this in that state. Only beeing well mannered in jail won't get him out. He has to prove that he is rehabilitated, and that his views are changed and that the risk of him beeing a danger to the society is 0%. If not he will stay in and rot.
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On July 24 2011 13:07 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 13:03 VanGarde wrote:On July 24 2011 12:59 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:41 Badboyrune wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window. You completely missed the "When the sentence is almost up, the persons behavior and current situation will be reaccessed, and if he is deemed fit to go back to society, he will be let into society. If he is deemed unfit, he can be put into another 5 years of Forvaring. This process repeats until the person is either let back into society, or he dies." part in the OP? The thing is the metrics used to determine safety are usually a joke. You hear about that guy in Canada who randomly beheaded the guy sitting in front of him on a greyhound bus? He was out within a year because of psychiatric progress or whatnot after being not mentally fit to stand trial. Psychologists are very pliable: if you are intelligent and say what they want to hear, they will report you to be safe to the community. That or there will be some level of corruption, which is the other option, but that thoroughly invalidates the entire Norweigan justice system. It is very presumptuous of you to invalidate an entire justice system not just of Norway but all Scandinavian countries and possibly most of western Europe. It is also quite naive to think that psychologists who work in criminal justice and spend their career assessing hardened criminals and mentally disturbed criminals are so easily fooled. These people deal with very intelligent criminals all the time. To assert that they can just be tricked like any street psychiatrist is to make a lot of assumptions. There are bound to be mistakes made some times, but overall these people do this for a living. Then we disagree. We'll just have to see how it all turns out.
We don't have to wait and see how it turns out these justice systems have existed in multiple countries for decades and if it was that easy to fool the system then there would had been many many more cases through the years of people who were mistakenly released.
The system works.
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On July 24 2011 13:15 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 13:07 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 13:03 VanGarde wrote:On July 24 2011 12:59 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:41 Badboyrune wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window. You completely missed the "When the sentence is almost up, the persons behavior and current situation will be reaccessed, and if he is deemed fit to go back to society, he will be let into society. If he is deemed unfit, he can be put into another 5 years of Forvaring. This process repeats until the person is either let back into society, or he dies." part in the OP? The thing is the metrics used to determine safety are usually a joke. You hear about that guy in Canada who randomly beheaded the guy sitting in front of him on a greyhound bus? He was out within a year because of psychiatric progress or whatnot after being not mentally fit to stand trial. Psychologists are very pliable: if you are intelligent and say what they want to hear, they will report you to be safe to the community. That or there will be some level of corruption, which is the other option, but that thoroughly invalidates the entire Norweigan justice system. It is very presumptuous of you to invalidate an entire justice system not just of Norway but all Scandinavian countries and possibly most of western Europe. It is also quite naive to think that psychologists who work in criminal justice and spend their career assessing hardened criminals and mentally disturbed criminals are so easily fooled. These people deal with very intelligent criminals all the time. To assert that they can just be tricked like any street psychiatrist is to make a lot of assumptions. There are bound to be mistakes made some times, but overall these people do this for a living. Then we disagree. We'll just have to see how it all turns out. We don't have to wait and see how it turns out these justice systems have existed in multiple countries for decades and if it was that easy to fool the system then there would had been many many more cases through the years of people who were mistakenly released. The system works.
As I said, we'll see. There are two ways for him to try to get out, as I see it:
1) Men-tally unfit to stand trial -> mental hospital. I don't know about Norway but in most western countries there is a way back to the public if the patient shows significant improvement.
2) Mentally fit to stand trial -> convicted -> normal prison -> normal parole / mental health checks where he can get out.
I'm actually more interested right now in whether he (or his lawyer) will argue mentally unfit or not. don't think he will, though, as that'll delegitimize the viewpoint he is trying to sell. I'd guess he'll plead not guilty and use the court as a pulpit - I can't see any value in pleading guilty anyway, as he's not going to get a plea deal.
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On July 24 2011 13:15 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 13:07 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 13:03 VanGarde wrote:On July 24 2011 12:59 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:41 Badboyrune wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window. You completely missed the "When the sentence is almost up, the persons behavior and current situation will be reaccessed, and if he is deemed fit to go back to society, he will be let into society. If he is deemed unfit, he can be put into another 5 years of Forvaring. This process repeats until the person is either let back into society, or he dies." part in the OP? The thing is the metrics used to determine safety are usually a joke. You hear about that guy in Canada who randomly beheaded the guy sitting in front of him on a greyhound bus? He was out within a year because of psychiatric progress or whatnot after being not mentally fit to stand trial. Psychologists are very pliable: if you are intelligent and say what they want to hear, they will report you to be safe to the community. That or there will be some level of corruption, which is the other option, but that thoroughly invalidates the entire Norweigan justice system. It is very presumptuous of you to invalidate an entire justice system not just of Norway but all Scandinavian countries and possibly most of western Europe. It is also quite naive to think that psychologists who work in criminal justice and spend their career assessing hardened criminals and mentally disturbed criminals are so easily fooled. These people deal with very intelligent criminals all the time. To assert that they can just be tricked like any street psychiatrist is to make a lot of assumptions. There are bound to be mistakes made some times, but overall these people do this for a living. Then we disagree. We'll just have to see how it all turns out. We don't have to wait and see how it turns out these justice systems have existed in multiple countries for decades and if it was that easy to fool the system then there would had been many many more cases through the years of people who were mistakenly released. The system works.
What if he legitimately is not a threat anymore? I mean, 21 years from now (or 10 or whatever) he might be able to honestly say "I have made my ideological point with those attacks, I am not going to repeat them. Like many others, I share these beliefs, but like most of them, I am not interested in breaking the law to spread or enforce them. I have moved past that now." He could honestly get to that point where he doesn't regret his actions but is honestly not interested in reoffending. Or he might just legitimately regret what he has done too. At that point, will he be released? How will Norweigans view that, even if he never commits another crime in his life?
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On July 24 2011 13:22 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 13:15 VanGarde wrote:On July 24 2011 13:07 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 13:03 VanGarde wrote:On July 24 2011 12:59 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:41 Badboyrune wrote:On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:
[quote]
Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window. You completely missed the "When the sentence is almost up, the persons behavior and current situation will be reaccessed, and if he is deemed fit to go back to society, he will be let into society. If he is deemed unfit, he can be put into another 5 years of Forvaring. This process repeats until the person is either let back into society, or he dies." part in the OP? The thing is the metrics used to determine safety are usually a joke. You hear about that guy in Canada who randomly beheaded the guy sitting in front of him on a greyhound bus? He was out within a year because of psychiatric progress or whatnot after being not mentally fit to stand trial. Psychologists are very pliable: if you are intelligent and say what they want to hear, they will report you to be safe to the community. That or there will be some level of corruption, which is the other option, but that thoroughly invalidates the entire Norweigan justice system. It is very presumptuous of you to invalidate an entire justice system not just of Norway but all Scandinavian countries and possibly most of western Europe. It is also quite naive to think that psychologists who work in criminal justice and spend their career assessing hardened criminals and mentally disturbed criminals are so easily fooled. These people deal with very intelligent criminals all the time. To assert that they can just be tricked like any street psychiatrist is to make a lot of assumptions. There are bound to be mistakes made some times, but overall these people do this for a living. Then we disagree. We'll just have to see how it all turns out. We don't have to wait and see how it turns out these justice systems have existed in multiple countries for decades and if it was that easy to fool the system then there would had been many many more cases through the years of people who were mistakenly released. The system works. What if he legitimately is not a threat anymore? I mean, 21 years from now (or 10 or whatever) he might be able to honestly say "I have made my ideological point with those attacks, I am not going to repeat them. Like many others, I share these beliefs, but like most of them, I am not interested in breaking the law to spread or enforce them. I have moved past that now." He could honestly get to that point where he doesn't regret his actions but is honestly not interested in reoffending. Or he might just legitimately regret what he has done too. At that point, will he be released? How will Norweigans view that, even if he never commits another crime in his life?
If he legitimately is not a threat anymore after 21 years yeah he will be out and people will feel as people would feel anytime a criminal who committed horrible crimes is let loose. Especially people who were personally affected by the crime would feel terrible I am sure. I don't see the point of discussing that though because it has no impact on the criminal justice system. Unless you want to see a system based on vengeance rather than protecting society but I don't think Norwegians want that.
Frankly I think Norwegians and other Scandinavians alike are getting sick of this discussion whether it be death penalty or prison time. The nordic societies are among the ones with the lowest crime rate on the face of the planet, and it is starting to get old to have people from all around the world come in the wake of this terrible deed and start telling us how we need to reform our justice systems.
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EPT
