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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 24 2011 11:44 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 11:35 reisada wrote:On July 24 2011 11:31 Shikyo wrote:
Oh wow, it has some references to a Finnish True Finn politician, Jussi Halla-Aho(Who's very anti-immigrant etc).
This whole thing seems so surreal. He seems very intelligent and methodical and he obviously believes he's doing the right thing.
I really wonder what kind of a speech he's going to give on monday. Some propaganda speech about his ideals?
In my opinion, there is a very high chance that he's going to get some followers, especially if his speech is good.
This is quite scary, really. This person isn't an ordinary murderer at all. I've been thinking about everything alot and it seems like... he just wanted to make a massacre that would hit all the news so that his views and visions would get more exposure.
My condolences to everyone who this has affected. thats exactly what he wanted. The main issue right now is people assuming this is over. I'd assume it's far from it. This guy has planned every single step (including his arrest) so far, I'd assume there will be either more coming from his "cell" once the trial begins and/or him holding some prepared speeches in there. Someone who actually thinks about tactics to get the most kills possible on such a thing and writing them down definitly won't go into this unprepared. Though, personally, I'd love to see someone who actually tries to get behind this sick brain to make him crack. I've seen similar things on incidents of rapists and that seems the only way to make those people shut up in some cases.
Not much he can do now, he worked completely alone on his "project" anyway, the way his log describes it.
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On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner.
Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years.
edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less.
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The guy doesn't deserve to speak to the public. It will only sensationalize everything even more, create sympathy for someone who no longer deserves any. I hope its reasonable to believe that when the time comes to analyze whether he is fit for society, its a quick no, and back to his cell he goes.
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The saddest thing I've ever read is that some youth were literally swimming for their lives. If your best hope of survival requires you move so slowly by swimming, their options must have been incredibly limited and the fear must have been overwhelming, like in a nightmare where you're moving in slow motion. I hope this guy gets the highest punishment possible.
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On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less.
Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases.
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On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases.
You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window.
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On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:
You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate.
It doesn't matter how he behaves in prision. As long as he is a threat to the society, they can keep him in prison forever. And no one will ever, ever argue that he is not a threat. This guy will stay in prison till the day he dies, don't worry about that.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window.
People that think he is going to get out really need to shut up and think for second. Anybody that will have the power to release him in 10-21 years, will know exactly what crime he committed and how he committed it. They may have even been one of the people on the island. Who knows? But I highly doubt that anyone looking at this crime is going to think this guy can be rehabilitated (or even deserves it for that matter).
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On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less.
I guess you missed the part where he will not be let out until he's deemed safe for the rest of society? Do you really think a calculative psychopath that executed an elaborate plan do kill over 80 people, most of them children, to further his right wing extremist goals is ever going to be deemed safe? He is probably going to put on his best act in jail and do what psychopaths do best, manipulate, but this guy will never, ever be released.
If nothing else he would be kept in jail for political reasons, it would cause a complete outrage among pretty much everyone if he was ever released, and for his own safety.
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On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia....
Wikipediea. Schmikipedia. Blah. Blah. Blah.
No.
Use your brain. He will not be released. Period. He will be held indefinitely and they will just say "nope, not reformed yet - give him another 5 years" - regardless of how awesome/nice/intellectual/polite he is.
He. Killed. Eighty. Helpless. People.
End of story. He rots.
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From what I understand governments use these sort of things as 'messages' to signal particular things to other governments. I could be off base for the majority of readers here. Regardless it's treacherous if it is something of a game, or if it's just he one man's game of insanity. Whatever it is fuck it.
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On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window.
You completely missed the "When the sentence is almost up, the persons behavior and current situation will be reaccessed, and if he is deemed fit to go back to society, he will be let into society. If he is deemed unfit, he can be put into another 5 years of Forvaring. This process repeats until the person is either let back into society, or he dies." part in the OP?
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On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases.
But that's not how it works. They can't just go against their justice system and determine he's dangerous to society if he's spent over 10 years in prison very well mannered. Yes, he'd be completely gaming the system and it's very likely he's going to continue with another crime of the sort. He has most likely studied the Norwegian law and knows this as well.
Of course, I could be completely wrong and they might be able to just decide to keep him there at will, but I have a feeling that it's not that easy.
What are the requirements for the 21 year sentence to be extended, anyway ? I can't find proper information in English.
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I dunno man.. and youve been disturbingly pro-Breiven in an implicit fashion the past few pages here
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On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia the containment sentence is 21 years max, but you are eligible for parole after 10. This is the type of guy to be calm and intellectual in prison, at least from how well he planned things + his manifesto seem to indicate. The only way to keep him in is through passing new laws or breaking current ones. Interesting dilemma for Norway: follow the law or allow it that when something big and bad happens and the whole "prison is for rehabilitation, not for vengeance" view goes right out the window. If (or when, rather) he's sentenced to 21 years, plus x(It does not have a cap) years of "forvaring", the case would then be up for review every 5 years.
We don't need to change anything.
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Out of anything that has ever happened in the world, this tragedy in Norway scares me the most.
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If the Norwegian prison system is anything like the Swedish then yes life sentence is not really "life" but somewhere between 15 and 20 years but that is just a starting kit if you will. You can get a sentence where after those initial years you don't actually get out but you have to be cleared for release and if you are deemed still a danger to society you stay in jail for another set of years, and there is no limit on how many times that can be extended.
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On July 24 2011 12:41 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. But that's not how it works. They can't just go against their justice system and determine he's dangerous to society if he's spent over 10 years in prison very well mannered. Yes, he'd be completely gaming the system and it's very likely he's going to continue with another crime of the sort. He has most likely studied the Norwegian law and knows this as well. Of course, I could be completely wrong and they might be able to just decide to keep him there at will, but I have a feeling that it's not that easy. What are the requirements for the 21 year sentence to be extended, anyway ? I can't find proper information in English.
As far as I understand the only requirement for him to go into 'Forvaring' is that he is deemed a danger to society. I suspect that the people doing this evaluation will consist at least partly by psychologists. Seeing how psychopathy is generally considered incurable I find it hard to believe that any psychologist would ever deem a psychopath that's already killed over 80 people not to be a threat to society.
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On July 24 2011 12:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:27 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:25 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 24 2011 12:21 cz wrote:On July 24 2011 12:18 Ksi wrote:On July 24 2011 12:15 cz wrote:
How is Norway going to deal with this guy? Since he surrendered he's going to go into Norway's justice system, which as I understand it is very lax on sentencing (no such thing as death penalty, no such thing as a real life term). Isn't he going to be out in 10-20 years for good behavior no matter what the judges sentence him too? Isn't that in the law somewhere, that there is a pretty low max punishment? Read the OP. I really hope we eventually stop seeing the trickle of people in this thread saying "oh, but he'll be released in 21 years." or something similar. He will, with 99.999999999999% certainty, be locked away for the rest of his life, barring some sort of vigilante justice or other such event. He certainly will not be let out of prison in any legal manner. Are you sure? Most Western nations, and especially the Nordic ones, have loopholes that allow a way out after X years for good conduct, and sentencing guidelines that make even the harshest sentences no more than 30 or so years. edit: I read the OP, so it's 21 years max, assuming he has good behavior/etc that lets him out. I don't think this is the type of guy who is going to have a problem meeting the conditions to leave: he seems to be intelligent and willing to plan, so he'll be out in 21 years or less. Stuff and nonsense. He shot down well over 80 helpless kids. He'll be in a dark place til he dies. Yes, I'm sure. There will be no "good conduct" granted to him - I don't care if less serious criminals end up with that as a way out in other cases. You'd be surprised. From what I read on wikipedia.... Wikipediea. Schmikipedia. Blah. Blah. Blah. No. Use your brain. He will not be released. Period. He will be held indefinitely and they will just say "nope, not reformed yet - give him another 5 years" - regardless of how awesome/nice/intellectual/polite he is. He. Killed. Eighty. Helpless. People. End of story. He rots.
Problem is there doesn't seem to be a way to use the murder of 80 helpless people to up the prison sentence, nor do I think it legally has an effect when parole comes up. They just take a look at how he is THEN and make their decision based on psychological interviews / prison history and so on. They really can only keep him in through A) passing new laws specifically for him or B) being corrupt. Either way, assuming they do keep him in, it'll show how legitimate these "rehabilitate-first" laws - their effects bragged about across the world - are: prison as punishment is terrible/inhumane until your kid/country gets killed.
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On July 24 2011 12:50 VanGarde wrote:
If the Norwegian prison system is anything like the Swedish then yes life sentence is not really "life" but somewhere between 15 and 20 years but that is just a starting kit if you will. You can get a sentence where after those initial years you don't actually get out but you have to be cleared for release and if you are deemed still a danger to society you stay in jail for another set of years, and there is no limit on how many times that can be extended.
Mental patients could certainly be in an institution for life.
I feel like it would philosophically just for this man to have a life sentence in the military.
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EPT
