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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 24 2011 07:11 Jiddra wrote:
Oh my god, just caught the interview with the killers laywer. He says the video and manifesto is about his network and himself, so there is more like him out there prepared to do the same.
I wouldn't worry too much. The Unabomber didn't get any copycats, and he didn't discredit himself and his ideology anywhere near as brutally as this Breivik guy has by mass murdering a bunch of children. Also the Unabomber manifesto was a far quicker and snappier read than this guy's 1500 page magnum opus. People won't even bother to read more than the first couple of chapters, before getting bored and heading off to their local repository of cat pictures.
Anyone who does get anywhere into it will hit the chapters where the guy talks about himself, and is going to see this guy as a narcissistic self-absorbed tosspot who's been living in some little internet echo chamber with his blogmates and repeating the same stale ideological phrases to himself so long that he's lost touch with basic human deceny. There's hardly going to be anyone on the planet who won't be repelled at someone who thinks that"executing class A and B Cultural Marxists/multicultural traitors" would be an amusing euphemism for murdering children to write on his gun license application.
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On July 24 2011 07:02 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 06:55 Quotidian wrote:On July 24 2011 06:46 Thorakh wrote:On July 24 2011 06:43 kekepop wrote:On July 24 2011 06:39 Dr_Jones wrote:On July 24 2011 06:32 marttorn wrote:On July 24 2011 06:25 loladin wrote:
NRK got some "expert" that saw a parallell between the events of Utøya and a post the killer made on a WoW forum saying what an "epic feeling it was to finally kill Nefarion".
Jesus Christ, how are these segments allowed to air? Oh god, they started with the WoW thing >,> Assuming he did his deeds because of WoW is completely ludicrous, and theres no reason to assume so. If playing WoW, a completely innocent game, is supposedly enough to give a person murderous thoughts, then owning a kitchen knife should make them go on a killing spree- >,< Let's say that I kill someone. I have hair. That doesn't mean I murdered someone BECAUSE I have hair... It was just a matter of time until they brougt it up, though.. that being said, it was just ONE small segment in a 16 hour day of continious news broadcasts, so let's not get our panties in a bunch just yet... Also find it interesting that they keep harping on WoW and still refrain from mentioning CoDMW2... from his manifesto :| wait till they find this February 2010
I just bought Modern Warfare 2, the game. It is probably the best military simulator out there and it’s one of the hottest games this year. I played MW1 as well but I didn’t really like it as I’m generally more the fantasy RPG kind of person – Dragon Age Origins etc .and not so much into first person shooters. I see MW2 more as a part of my training-simulation than anything else. I’ve still learned to love it though and especially the multiplayer part is amazing. You can more or less completely simulate actual operations. Oh dear lord... This will be going places... It's going to be impossible for game developers and game advocates to explain away. He is being too direct about it - he was using it to train the operation. People were commentating on how close this whole thing was to MW2 already before the manifesto had been discovered. Turns out Jack Thompson was more right than anybody who likes to play games are comfortable with admitting. Videogames don't make people do crazy things, Crazy people being crazy is what makes them do crazy things, videogames have nothing to do with it.
video games don't make people do crazy things, but it I think it is obvious that MW2 on some level inspired this lunatic (in which case, it's no better or worse than a film, book, wikipedia article, etc) and made him more mentally prepared (which only games can do). He didn't need training in how to use guns, but he was obviously mentally prepared enough to kill close to 1 person per minute for something like 95 minutes, and I think unfortunantly MW2 has some blame in that. But he was also heavily on steroids, and maybe something else as well.
Note, I do not want this to lead to censorship of games, and I think even extremely violent and simulator-like games are harmless 99.99999... percent of the time.
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""3.26 Avoiding suspicion from relatives, neighbours and friends
Present a ”credible project/alibi” to your friends, co-workers and family. Announce to your closest friends, co-workers and family that you are pursuing a ”project” that can at least partly justify your ”new pattern of activities” (isolation/travel) while in the planning phase.
F example, tell them that you have started to play World of Warcraft or any other online MMO game and that you wish to focus on this for the next months/year. This ”new project” can justify isolation and people will understand somewhat why you are not answering your phone over long periods. Tell them that you are completely hooked on the game (raiding dungeons etc). Emphasise to them that this is a dream you have had since you were a kid. If they stress you, insist and ask them to respect your decision. You will be amazed on how much you can do undetected while blaming this game. If your planning requires you to travel, say that you are visiting one of your WoW friends, or better yet, a girl from your ”guild” (who lives in another country). No further questions will be raised if you present these arguments.
Blaming WoW is also quite strategic due to another factor. It is usually considered ”tabu” or even shameful in our society today to be hooked on an MMO. By revealing ”this secret” to your close ones you are therefore (to them at least) entrusting them with your innermost secret. Usually they will ”contribute” to keeping this secret for you which can be very beneficial. (If people from your ”secondary” social circle ask them they will even usually ”lie” on your behalf (giving you alibi), in order to keep your MMO project a secret. ""
He had planned this pretty god damn carefully and detailedly. Geez.
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Kinda sick how he detailed he planned this just came across it by randomly going through his manifesto so i actualy belive he wasnt all that into video games after all even if its been stated alot about it by the media.
3.26 Avoiding suspicion from relatives, neighbours and friends
Present a ”credible project/alibi” to your friends, co-workers and family. Announce to your closest friends, co-workers and family that you are pursuing a ”project” that can at least partly justify your ”new pattern of activities” (isolation/travel) while in the planning phase.
F example, tell them that you have started to play World of Warcraft or any other online MMO game and that you wish to focus on this for the next months/year. This ”new project” can justify isolation and people will understand somewhat why you are not answering your phone over long periods. Tell them that you are completely hooked on the game (raiding dungeons etc). Emphasise to them that this is a dream you have had since you were a kid. If they stress you, insist and ask them to respect your decision. You will be amazed on how much you can do undetected while blaming this game. If your planning requires you to travel, say that you are visiting one of your WoW friends, or better yet, a girl from your ”guild” (who lives in another country). No further questions will be raised if you present these arguments.
Blaming WoW is also quite strategic due to another factor. It is usually considered ”tabu” or even shameful in our society today to be hooked on an MMO. By revealing ”this secret” to your close ones you are therefore (to them at least) entrusting them with your innermost secret. Usually they will ”contribute” to keeping this secret for you which can be very beneficial. (If people from your ”secondary” social circle ask them they will even usually ”lie” on your behalf (giving you alibi), in order to keep your MMO project a secret.
Avoid exposing your political conviction
Appear politically correct or at least moderate, dress normally. Try to limit your rhetorical activities. Avoid excessive forum posting. Excessive forum activity might get you ”flagged” by your national government.
How to use social taboos to prevent individuals close to you from digging too much or ask too many questions - AND how to easily manipulate them into assisting you in protecting your cover from everyone else without them having the slightest clue what is going on
Using social taboos is an extremely effective method from preventing people who know you well from digging too much or ask too many questions about your activities that weekend or that year. It is also an extremely effective method for manipulating them into protecting your cover.
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On July 24 2011 07:14 r.Evo wrote:
The more I look through this manifest the more I feel that reading the anarchist cookbook was like reading a tutorial on how to raise a kitten..
This whole thing definitly took years of calculated, ruthless and cold planning..
I consider my knowledge very solid when it comes to, from an ethical point of view horrible, but nonetheless effective applications of strategy (think Machiavelli, Robert Greene and similar things) but this dude is on a whole other, completely twisted, level.
Where on earth would you get the intention to pretty much determine years of your life to this from? I mean, fanatism, yes. But.. this stuff is just insane. Don't know what to say. :/
Those descriptions are so detailed that a handicapped monkey could learn from them.
I'm by no means educated in that direction but isnt that kinda text book psychotic beahaviour?
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On July 24 2011 06:56 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 05:26 chronomancer wrote:
semi-auto assault rifles are somewhat practical for big game hunting and just plain good fun to shoot.
No. No. No. No.
meh fuck it its a stupid argument
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Videogames don't make people do crazy things, Crazy people being crazy is what makes them do crazy things, videogames have nothing to do with it.
This is common knowledge. No one has or ever will kill because of a video game. It's the mind that gets them.
People just need something to blame for such a degradation of human well being. Let them point at what they like.
Blaming WoW is also quite strategic due to another factor. It is usually considered ”tabu” or even shameful in our society today to be hooked on an MMO. By revealing ”this secret” to your close ones you are therefore (to them at least) entrusting them with your innermost secret. Usually they will ”contribute” to keeping this secret for you which can be very beneficial. (If people from your ”secondary” social circle ask them they will even usually ”lie” on your behalf (giving you alibi), in order to keep your MMO project a secret.
Dude where the fuck do you live? When I used to play WoW, everyone I knew played WoW. No one ever heckled me for playing A VIDEO GAME.
If this happens to you, maybe you should move here.
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On July 24 2011 07:23 Lankeer wrote:
This guy had better be sentenced to death. I fail to see how you can let somebody that killed ~70 people survive.
Fortunately, he won't. The vast majority of the norwegian people do not endorse capital punishment and it is now more important than ever for us to enforce that which we believe. We won't change our way of thinking or our way of life because of this. We will rather, it seems if you sift through the norwegian media, hold our values even higher and protect them even more in face of this threat.
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On July 24 2011 07:23 Lankeer wrote:
This guy had better be sentenced to death. I fail to see how you can let somebody that killed ~70 people survive.
Plz read the OP about Norwegian laws and punishment. And don't start the deathpenalty debate over again.
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On July 24 2011 07:26 Quotidian wrote:
video games don't make people do crazy things, but it I think it is obvious that MW2 on some level inspired this lunatic
The oklahoma bombing probably inspired him more than anything.
I think it's stupid to say that it's games ... it's obvious that what inspired him, was him being a nutcase.
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On July 24 2011 07:34 LocusCoeruleus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 07:23 Lankeer wrote:
This guy had better be sentenced to death. I fail to see how you can let somebody that killed ~70 people survive. Fortunately, he won't. The vast majority of the norwegian people do not endorse capital punishment and it is now more important than ever for us to enforce that which we believe. We won't change our way of thinking or our way of life because of this. We will rather, it seems if you sift through the norwegian media, hold our values even higher and protect them even more in face of this threat.
Which imho is a sign of a truly civilized nation
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fuck, i get shivers down my spine every time i hear the thunder now..
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On July 24 2011 07:29 mengsk83 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 07:14 r.Evo wrote:
The more I look through this manifest the more I feel that reading the anarchist cookbook was like reading a tutorial on how to raise a kitten..
This whole thing definitly took years of calculated, ruthless and cold planning..
I consider my knowledge very solid when it comes to, from an ethical point of view horrible, but nonetheless effective applications of strategy (think Machiavelli, Robert Greene and similar things) but this dude is on a whole other, completely twisted, level.
Where on earth would you get the intention to pretty much determine years of your life to this from? I mean, fanatism, yes. But.. this stuff is just insane. Don't know what to say. :/
Those descriptions are so detailed that a handicapped monkey could learn from them. I'm by no means educated in that direction but isnt that kinda text book psychotic beahaviour?
Seems to me like some kind of pathological perfectionism, just on a very, very, sick level.
e.g. there's a whole chapter on combining physical training with steroids and specifc drug combinations (not to mention the part where he tells how to obtain all those substances) and them him evaluating how much it will improve his performance "during an operation" based on training exercises.
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On July 24 2011 07:29 mengsk83 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 07:14 r.Evo wrote:
The more I look through this manifest the more I feel that reading the anarchist cookbook was like reading a tutorial on how to raise a kitten..
This whole thing definitly took years of calculated, ruthless and cold planning..
I consider my knowledge very solid when it comes to, from an ethical point of view horrible, but nonetheless effective applications of strategy (think Machiavelli, Robert Greene and similar things) but this dude is on a whole other, completely twisted, level.
Where on earth would you get the intention to pretty much determine years of your life to this from? I mean, fanatism, yes. But.. this stuff is just insane. Don't know what to say. :/
Those descriptions are so detailed that a handicapped monkey could learn from them. I'm by no means educated in that direction but isnt that kinda text book psychotic beahaviour?
Much more information would need to be gathered to determine how severely delusional he is, etc. It's obvious though that he feels no remorse or empathy toward his victims, which is because of him associating them as enemies or traitors. He could still potentially have emotional reactions to "brothers and sisters" in need. It's like members of the SS in concentration camps during the holocaust. Once people are deemed subhuman/enemy it makes it easier for them to justify actions in their heads, and not all of those soldiers could have been psychotic/schizophrenic/sociopath/etc.
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"I did screw two girls in Prague though, but that was mainly because it was a realistic chance that I would end up dead during the process of establishing a weapons connection. I won’t make any effort to try to completely justify it though. Human males are imperfect by default as they are plagued by their biological needs. Nevertheless, screwing around outside of marriage is after all a relatively small sin compared to the huge amounts of grace I am about to generate with my martyrdom operation. And it is essential that you do what is required to keep moral and motivation at a high level; especially, just prior to operation critical moments. I have reserved 2000 Euro from my operations budget which I intend to spend on a high quality model escort girl 1 week prior to execution of the mission."
Hearing about everything from the book people are reading.
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It's obvious the games didn't inspire him, he would've done this even without them. It might've made it a little easier, but hey if we're going to ban everything that can make a psychopath's job easier we might as ban books, movies, music, any sharp object, any blunt object, any object that fires a projectile, discussing, talking, thoughts, etc.
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On July 24 2011 07:34 sarge89 wrote:
Plz read the OP about Norwegian laws and punishment. And don't start the deathpenalty debate over again.
There's new factual information to add relevant to that debate, though.
"Berwick" is apparently in favour of the death penalty in his manifesto, which IMO would be an argument to not give it to him:
"The cultural Marxist/multicultural aim is to destroy all ties to history, culture, family, community and one's people as a whole:
- Traditional family structures ...
[... snip list of things that 'cultural marxists' hate ...]
- The political mechanisms based on rationality and logic (death penalty, strict sentencing)."
[...snip...]
Also, regarding people like him being caught and tried, he thinks it would be a good strategy to goad the court into giving him the death penalty.
"The trial itself may not end up as anything else than a formality where the goal can be to change the law, forcing the parliament of that country to introduce the death penalty, or harshen the penal laws in other ways. Indirectly forcing the parliament of your country to change the laws will be an indirect victory to our movement because it will provide significant media coverage of our cause and thus will contribute to future recruitment efforts. "
There are a few other indications he supports the death penalty in the document.
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I'm dreading the trial. From the police report it's seems like he was willing and almost eager to be taken alive. If only he'd been stupid enough to resist arrest and get himself killed.
Now he will have a platform to preach his views to the whole world. Hopefully he comes across as a broken deranged discredited baffoon. My gut feeling however is that there will a small minority that will actually feel sympatheic to his motives if he can express them elquently enough. I hope they can hold closed door trials in Norway.
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On July 24 2011 07:43 Asymmetric wrote:
I'm dreading the trial. From the police report it's seems like he was willing and almost eager to be taken alive. If only he'd been stupid enough to resist arrest and get himself killed.
Now he will have a platform to preach his views to the whole world. Hopefully he comes across as a broken deranged discredited baffoon. My gut feeling however is that there will a small minority that will actually feel sympatheic to his motives if he can express them elquently enough. Seeing what I've read from him so far, I fear that he'll be able to get his point across very clearly.
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On July 24 2011 07:43 Asymmetric wrote:
I'm dreading the trial. From the police report it's seems like he was willing and almost eager to be taken alive. If only he'd been stupid enough to resist arrest and get himself killed.
Now he will have a platform to preach his views to the whole world. Hopefully he comes across as a broken deranged discredited baffoon. My gut feeling however is that there will a small minority that will actually feel sympatheic to his motives if he can express them elquently enough.
Does Norwegian law allow the process to be closed for the public?
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EPT
