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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 24 2011 01:02 Kilby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:57 CCow wrote:On July 24 2011 00:56 tenacity wrote:
Is it yet confirmed that a second shooter was on the island? No. Many of the survivors say they are absolutely certain there was more than one shooter. Kind of chilling thought that the second gunman could now be hiding among the survivors, hoping that all the kids who could recognize him are dead. I'm sure that if there was a second gunman, he will be caught. Sooner or later.
He asked if it was confirmed. The only answer there is: No, it has not.
The police has pointed out that there is no proof up to now.
This does not mean at all, that I think there has or hasn't been another person there.
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On July 24 2011 01:00 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:59 Quotidian wrote:On July 24 2011 00:52 zeru wrote:On July 24 2011 00:50 Quotidian wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 zeru wrote:
Who knows if rehabilitation will work or not. It has worked previously in really messed up people. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. However there is no need to be armchair shrinks in this thread. he might get "rehabilitated," whatever that means, but there will never be a place for him society again. There is no point in spending resources on rehabilitating him in the hopes that he will be able to rejoin society as a productive citizen. Spend resources on trying to understand how he was able to do what he did, how to prevent it. Him and his motives are of no use to anyone. Being armchair shrinks contributes nothing to this thread either. There are ex serial killers, chainsaw murderers and all kinds of ex-messed up people that have been rehabilitated. your point? Why is "rehabilitation" a goal in and of itself when the individual rehabilitated will never be accepted by society. He'll be kept alive, because that's how Norway does things, but it's a waste of resources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarianism
Humanitarianism states all living things should be treated with respect. The 90+ people that he killed weren't treated in that way. He violated the right of life all those young persons held, and therefore is directly opposed to "Humanitarianism". Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect?
I understand that the idea is we try to advance beyond notions of revenge but lets say this sparks a spree of killers that know they will be shielded by Humanitarianism? There is literally 0 deterrent for a mass murderer that believes he is right. And nothing will change his beliefs if he is willing to murder almost a hundred people mainly comprising of youths.
I'm not arguing for or against the death penalty. Just playing devil's advocate.
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On July 24 2011 01:02 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:00 larssto wrote:
Something that annoys me is that the Norwegian news does not seem to have picked up on the fact that this guy's Facebook profile is less than a week old, and most likely contains propaganda he wants the media to see. All the news stations are swallowing what he wrote there seemingly without question.... Yeah that is what i was thinking this could be all just made for the news to draw this picture of him... Why dont say that this may be all made up wtf are they just a tool and like it like this or what is wrong with the news????
its in the spiegel articles in germany, dont read shit like bild for serious matters
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On July 24 2011 01:08 Kh0nsu wrote:
[...] Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect?
[...].
Yes, most definitely.
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On July 24 2011 01:02 Dr_Jones wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:00 larssto wrote:
Something that annoys me is that the Norwegian news does not seem to have picked up on the fact that this guy's Facebook profile is less than a week old, and most likely contains propaganda he wants the media to see. All the news stations are swallowing what he wrote there seemingly without question.... Yes, they have...? They have commented on it several times on TV2 at least, when interviewing the criminal psychology.
Just curious, did anyone pick on the movie "Dogville" he linked yet? I'm asking because the film isn't well known, however both my girlfriend and me were like "ARE YOU SERIOUS?" when we saw him listing it.
It's basicly about a woman hiding from gangsters coming to a new town and being ridiculed and humiliated by everyone. Basicly the more people realize she depends on them for helping her to hide, the more she gets humiliated.
Pretty much the only people who I know that actually like (and still hate) that movie are people somehow involved in strong mobbing or similar incidents. Just throwing it out there.
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Thoughts go out to all in Norway show some respect to these innocent people.
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He surrendered immediately after the police arrived, he laid the gun on the ground when the police approached him and no shots were fired during the arrest
4-5 still missing at Utøya
he had 1 one-hand weapon and 1 two-hand weapon (no specifics)
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On July 24 2011 01:09 graan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:02 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On July 24 2011 01:00 larssto wrote:
Something that annoys me is that the Norwegian news does not seem to have picked up on the fact that this guy's Facebook profile is less than a week old, and most likely contains propaganda he wants the media to see. All the news stations are swallowing what he wrote there seemingly without question.... Yeah that is what i was thinking this could be all just made for the news to draw this picture of him... Why dont say that this may be all made up wtf are they just a tool and like it like this or what is wrong with the news???? its in the spiegel articles in germany, dont read shit like bild for serious matters
NONO im not that dump but several news already starting to play the PC-Gaming is evil card just by taking the facebook profile for granted... Not spiegel online wich is my recource. only low class News but still they make me mad becouse so many people take them for granted 
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On July 24 2011 01:09 CCow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:08 Kh0nsu wrote:
[...] Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect?
[...]. Yes, most definitely.
If Humanitarianism was to truely work, I guess you would have to.
How would you deter similar situations in the future if punishments are never going to be comparable to the crime?
( Again, just interested in discussion, I'm undecided on how justice should be served atm)
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On July 24 2011 00:26 exterminatus wrote:
Heard from tinfoil hatters:
Whole incident was a false-flag operation.
you make me sad
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On July 24 2011 01:08 Kh0nsu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:00 zeru wrote:On July 24 2011 00:59 Quotidian wrote:On July 24 2011 00:52 zeru wrote:On July 24 2011 00:50 Quotidian wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 zeru wrote:
Who knows if rehabilitation will work or not. It has worked previously in really messed up people. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. However there is no need to be armchair shrinks in this thread. he might get "rehabilitated," whatever that means, but there will never be a place for him society again. There is no point in spending resources on rehabilitating him in the hopes that he will be able to rejoin society as a productive citizen. Spend resources on trying to understand how he was able to do what he did, how to prevent it. Him and his motives are of no use to anyone. Being armchair shrinks contributes nothing to this thread either. There are ex serial killers, chainsaw murderers and all kinds of ex-messed up people that have been rehabilitated. your point? Why is "rehabilitation" a goal in and of itself when the individual rehabilitated will never be accepted by society. He'll be kept alive, because that's how Norway does things, but it's a waste of resources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarianism Humanitarianism states all living things should be treated with respect. The 90+ people that he killed weren't treated in that way. He violated the right of life all those young persons held, and therefore is directly opposed to "Humanitarianism". Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect? I understand that the idea is we try to advance beyond notions of revenge but lets say this sparks a spree of killers that know they will be shielded by Humanitarianism? There is literally 0 deterrent for a mass murderer that believes he is right. And nothing will change his beliefs if he is willing to murder almost a hundred people mainly comprising of youths. I'm not arguing for or against the death penalty. Just playing devil's advocate.
It falls on the 0 deterrent though because its been proven time and time again that the death penalty does NOT deter. And even if it did, and even if we were all fine with aiding in the state controlled murder of a convict the death penalty is still unacceptable. Mainly because the legal system can never be perfect. The death penalty can only be even remotely acceptable if there is no chance that an innocent person is ever convicted. Is there anyone here, who trusts their state, who trusts bureaucrats to have the say over who lives and dies, and who trusts them to never make a mistake?
But it still all comes down to the fact that the death penalty is not cheaper, and does not offer more deterrent than life in prison. So it is still all about revenge.
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I do not confide in religion or believe in it for that matter but i hope this sick Fuck Rots in Hell. If There is/was one.
He killed 90 + Innocent People he Deserves The Worst
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On July 24 2011 01:13 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:11 Kh0nsu wrote:On July 24 2011 01:09 CCow wrote:On July 24 2011 01:08 Kh0nsu wrote:
[...] Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect?
[...]. Yes, most definitely. If Humanitarianism was to truely work, I guess you would have to. How would you deter similar situations in the future if punishments are never going to be comparable to the crime? ( Again, just interested in discussion, I'm undecided on how justice should be served atm) Sentences arent "punishments" here (as in he should experience something just as bad as he did). They are rehabilitation. And it does work.
I've been looking for recidivism rates for Norway but i'm not having much luck. In the UK, we come from a society that throws people in jail for fun and sees at least 50% crawl back in within the first few months of their release.
It leads people to ask for harsher punishments and longer jail time, nobody here considers rehabilitation a realistic option.
Very interested to see how successful Norway is regarding recidivism rates.
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On July 24 2011 01:11 Kh0nsu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:09 CCow wrote:On July 24 2011 01:08 Kh0nsu wrote:
[...] Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect?
[...]. Yes, most definitely. If Humanitarianism was to truely work, I guess you would have to. How would you deter similar situations in the future if punishments are never going to be comparable to the crime? ( Again, just interested in discussion, I'm undecided on how justice should be served atm)
The judical system of norway, and most european countries for that matter, does not base on revenge but on rehabilitation, as stated lots and lots of times before.
This thread is not about this, though, so please try to keep this for some kind of news.
This discussion has filled way too many pages.
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This might have been posted already, however it underlines again the difference within different media outlets:
![[image loading]](http://i54.tinypic.com/1nzpud.jpg)
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On July 24 2011 01:16 Kh0nsu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:13 zeru wrote:On July 24 2011 01:11 Kh0nsu wrote:On July 24 2011 01:09 CCow wrote:On July 24 2011 01:08 Kh0nsu wrote:
[...] Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect?
[...]. Yes, most definitely. If Humanitarianism was to truely work, I guess you would have to. How would you deter similar situations in the future if punishments are never going to be comparable to the crime? ( Again, just interested in discussion, I'm undecided on how justice should be served atm) Sentences arent "punishments" here (as in he should experience something just as bad as he did). They are rehabilitation. And it does work. I've been looking for recidivism rates for Norway but i'm not having much luck. In the UK, we come from a society that throws people in jail for fun and sees at least 50% crawl back in within the first few months of their release. It leads people to ask for harsher punishments and longer jail time, nobody here considers rehabilitation a realistic option. Very interested to see how successful Norway is regarding recidivism rates.
Read an article in Spiegel like a year ago and their rates were at least better than the german ones. Also the rates were better the more "open" the prison was, iirc.
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On July 24 2011 01:17 blomsterjohn wrote:This might have been posted already, however it underlines again the difference within different media outlets:
Oh man TL figured out not to blame the first wich comes into there mind at page 2 or so... sooooo sad
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
Ok, guys get it. We don't have death penalty in Europe and the majority here doesn't want it. Stop derailing the thread with demanding more dead people.
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On another note, how does the media in certain countries focus their attention at the moment?
Spiegelonline.de is already asking questions like "Is there a paramilitary scene we should be afraid of?", "What social climate is needed to make someone take a weapon and do something like this?", "How dangerous are right-wing extremists in europe?"
Not to mention that there are articles that talk about his Facebook profile as if it was for real (omg videogamer, freemasonry etc.) - then in the last paragraph you find a note that it was put online 4 days before his shooting. I don't even want to know what less solid media will make out of it.
Fuck that, I had to check it. Basicly the german version of "The Sun" (BILD) already has that headline:
"He's racist, loves hunting, plants carrots and plays World of Warcraft."
>_>
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EPT
