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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 24 2011 01:14 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:08 Kh0nsu wrote:On July 24 2011 01:00 zeru wrote:On July 24 2011 00:59 Quotidian wrote:On July 24 2011 00:52 zeru wrote:On July 24 2011 00:50 Quotidian wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 zeru wrote:
Who knows if rehabilitation will work or not. It has worked previously in really messed up people. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. However there is no need to be armchair shrinks in this thread. he might get "rehabilitated," whatever that means, but there will never be a place for him society again. There is no point in spending resources on rehabilitating him in the hopes that he will be able to rejoin society as a productive citizen. Spend resources on trying to understand how he was able to do what he did, how to prevent it. Him and his motives are of no use to anyone. Being armchair shrinks contributes nothing to this thread either. There are ex serial killers, chainsaw murderers and all kinds of ex-messed up people that have been rehabilitated. your point? Why is "rehabilitation" a goal in and of itself when the individual rehabilitated will never be accepted by society. He'll be kept alive, because that's how Norway does things, but it's a waste of resources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarianism Humanitarianism states all living things should be treated with respect. The 90+ people that he killed weren't treated in that way. He violated the right of life all those young persons held, and therefore is directly opposed to "Humanitarianism". Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect? I understand that the idea is we try to advance beyond notions of revenge but lets say this sparks a spree of killers that know they will be shielded by Humanitarianism? There is literally 0 deterrent for a mass murderer that believes he is right. And nothing will change his beliefs if he is willing to murder almost a hundred people mainly comprising of youths. I'm not arguing for or against the death penalty. Just playing devil's advocate. It falls on the 0 deterrent though because its been proven time and time again that the death penalty does NOT deter. And even if it did, and even if we were all fine with aiding in the state controlled murder of a convict the death penalty is still unacceptable. Mainly because the legal system can never be perfect. The death penalty can only be even remotely acceptable if there is no chance that an innocent person is ever convicted. Is there anyone here, who trusts their state, who trusts bureaucrats to have the say over who lives and dies, and who trusts them to never make a mistake? But it still all comes down to the fact that the death penalty is not cheaper, and does not offer more deterrent than life in prison. So it is still all about revenge.
Edited out due to people rightfully asking for this discussion to end. I'll continue my journey for my own beliefs at another time, in another place.
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On July 24 2011 01:11 Kh0nsu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:09 CCow wrote:On July 24 2011 01:08 Kh0nsu wrote:
[...] Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect?
[...]. Yes, most definitely. If Humanitarianism was to truely work, I guess you would have to. How would you deter similar situations in the future if punishments are never going to be comparable to the crime? ( Again, just interested in discussion, I'm undecided on how justice should be served atm)
Well you cant really, insanity is part of the human condition. This human is insane, still needs to be treated like a human. If you live in a society that protects the individual rights of the most evil, crazy, insane people you can rest assure that the rights of the "normal" human are also well protected in that society.
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Police talking to the press:
Breivik has not confirmed second shooter. Two weapons: a one handed and a two handed gun. Police operates with 92 dead and up to 6 missing. Police does not think the number will exceed 98.
Explosives on the island were not explosives after all.
Car bomb in oslo confirmed.
Police cannot say if he's connected to a bigger community.
No other weapons. (knives etc)
Police preformed a search in Oslo city with no findings.
90minutes from first shot until he was captured. Chaos in Oslo and huge phone trafic as well as the location being an Island delayed Police. Reaction time was very short once the message came through.
Shooter was taken without resistance.
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On July 24 2011 01:18 CCow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:16 Kh0nsu wrote:On July 24 2011 01:13 zeru wrote:On July 24 2011 01:11 Kh0nsu wrote:On July 24 2011 01:09 CCow wrote:On July 24 2011 01:08 Kh0nsu wrote:
[...] Should we protect him biased on a principle he doesn't respect?
[...]. Yes, most definitely. If Humanitarianism was to truely work, I guess you would have to. How would you deter similar situations in the future if punishments are never going to be comparable to the crime? ( Again, just interested in discussion, I'm undecided on how justice should be served atm) Sentences arent "punishments" here (as in he should experience something just as bad as he did). They are rehabilitation. And it does work. I've been looking for recidivism rates for Norway but i'm not having much luck. In the UK, we come from a society that throws people in jail for fun and sees at least 50% crawl back in within the first few months of their release. It leads people to ask for harsher punishments and longer jail time, nobody here considers rehabilitation a realistic option. Very interested to see how successful Norway is regarding recidivism rates. Read an article in Spiegel like a year ago and their rates were at least better than the german ones. Also the rates were better the more "open" the prison was, iirc.
Yes, this is in alignment with a lot of different studies. In general the harsher a criminal justice system is, the more criminals it creates rather than rehabilitate. There surely are people who are not possible to rehabilitate and who take advantage if you will of lax justice systems but I would have to consider these an inverted kind of collateral damage. If we get a majority of the people we send to prison to come out and not commit more crimes, I can live with the odd mass murderer and rapist having cable tv and living well no matter how much that is disgusting to me because the overall outcome is better.
It has been demonstrated quite often how especially in the US with its very harsh criminal justice system, young people who are caught with a bit of pot, or who shoplifts repeated times are sent to jail and come out hardened criminals.
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On July 24 2011 01:20 Kh0nsu wrote:
I'd argue there might be a very, very small number of radical extremists that might be deterred, if that stops at least 1 case like this happening in the next hundred years, would that validate it?
( Please consider that argument assuming the death penalty is only used in situations like this, where the shooter is undeniable guilty.)
Please just stop derailing this more.
This discussion does not belong here and does not help the thread in any way.
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On July 24 2011 01:19 Fenrax wrote:
Ok, guys get it. We don't have death penalty in Europe and the majority here doesn't want it. Stop derailing the thread with demanding more dead people.
Freaking true. Even this men does not deserve to be killed. Killing only ends up in more killing. And the worst part of this thread is that soooo many people are only thinking about the murder. STOP IT!
That is the real real sad part. I don't care about him. What i do care about is the victims and all those traumatised people... that is really heartbreaking. I really wish them that they can live on.
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should get life in jail, i don't see any reason to EVER let someone like him out.
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On July 24 2011 01:10 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:02 Dr_Jones wrote:On July 24 2011 01:00 larssto wrote:
Something that annoys me is that the Norwegian news does not seem to have picked up on the fact that this guy's Facebook profile is less than a week old, and most likely contains propaganda he wants the media to see. All the news stations are swallowing what he wrote there seemingly without question.... Yes, they have...? They have commented on it several times on TV2 at least, when interviewing the criminal psychology. Just curious, did anyone pick on the movie "Dogville" he linked yet? I'm asking because the film isn't well known, however both my girlfriend and me were like "ARE YOU SERIOUS?" when we saw him listing it. It's basicly about a woman hiding from gangsters coming to a new town and being ridiculed and humiliated by everyone. Basicly the more people realize she depends on them for helping her to hide, the more she gets humiliated. Pretty much the only people who I know that actually like (and still hate) that movie are people somehow involved in strong mobbing or similar incidents. Just throwing it out there.
Dogville is very well known..? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276919/
It has a 8.0 rating on imdb which means A LOT of people like it. What for Heaven's sake is your point? :-D
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50585 Posts
My thoughts go to the friends and family of those who died in this terrible incident.
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On July 24 2011 01:15 XRaDiiX wrote:
He killed 90 + Innocent People
Had he killed 90 people who are not innocent everything would have been okey wouldnt it?
Thats exactly the problem with the people not understanding why the death penalty is not wanted in our community.
Killing someone who killed others => Killing is okey to some extent
Being innocent or not doesnt matter. No one should ever be killed.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On July 24 2011 01:24 butchji wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:10 r.Evo wrote:On July 24 2011 01:02 Dr_Jones wrote:On July 24 2011 01:00 larssto wrote:
Something that annoys me is that the Norwegian news does not seem to have picked up on the fact that this guy's Facebook profile is less than a week old, and most likely contains propaganda he wants the media to see. All the news stations are swallowing what he wrote there seemingly without question.... Yes, they have...? They have commented on it several times on TV2 at least, when interviewing the criminal psychology. Just curious, did anyone pick on the movie "Dogville" he linked yet? I'm asking because the film isn't well known, however both my girlfriend and me were like "ARE YOU SERIOUS?" when we saw him listing it. It's basicly about a woman hiding from gangsters coming to a new town and being ridiculed and humiliated by everyone. Basicly the more people realize she depends on them for helping her to hide, the more she gets humiliated. Pretty much the only people who I know that actually like (and still hate) that movie are people somehow involved in strong mobbing or similar incidents. Just throwing it out there. Dogville is very well known..? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276919/It has a 8.0 rating on imdb which means A LOT of people like it. What for Heaven's sake is your point? :-D
It is an awesome movie. The point is that the movie also ends with a shooting and it makes the viewer feel that the shot people deserved death.
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On July 24 2011 01:21 Wivyx wrote:
Police talking to the press:
Breivik has not confirmed second shooter. Two weapons: a one handed and a two handed gun. Police operates with 92 dead and up to 6 missing. Police does not think the number will exceed 98.
Explosives on the island were not explosives after all.
Car bomb in oslo confirmed.
Police cannot say if he's connected to a bigger community.
No other weapons. (knives etc)
Police preformed a search in Oslo city with no findings.
90minutes from first shot until he was captured. Chaos in Oslo and huge phone trafic as well as the location being an Island delayed Police. Reaction time was very short once the message came through.
Shooter was taken without resistance.
Good summary. Also, Defence Council has been appointed but prefers not to be named in public yet - probably fearing the popular backlash...
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On July 24 2011 01:24 butchji wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:10 r.Evo wrote:On July 24 2011 01:02 Dr_Jones wrote:On July 24 2011 01:00 larssto wrote:
Something that annoys me is that the Norwegian news does not seem to have picked up on the fact that this guy's Facebook profile is less than a week old, and most likely contains propaganda he wants the media to see. All the news stations are swallowing what he wrote there seemingly without question.... Yes, they have...? They have commented on it several times on TV2 at least, when interviewing the criminal psychology. Just curious, did anyone pick on the movie "Dogville" he linked yet? I'm asking because the film isn't well known, however both my girlfriend and me were like "ARE YOU SERIOUS?" when we saw him listing it. It's basicly about a woman hiding from gangsters coming to a new town and being ridiculed and humiliated by everyone. Basicly the more people realize she depends on them for helping her to hide, the more she gets humiliated. Pretty much the only people who I know that actually like (and still hate) that movie are people somehow involved in strong mobbing or similar incidents. Just throwing it out there. Dogville is very well known..? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276919/It has a 8.0 rating on imdb which means A LOT of people like it. What for Heaven's sake is your point? :-D
It's a niche movie to "like". It's pretty rare to see it on stuff like Facebook etc., considering his profile was well-planned and he only links 4 movies... meh, you're right, I'm doing armchair psychology here. :S
Also, this:
The point is that the movie also ends with a shooting and it makes the viewer feel that the shot people deserved death.
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On July 24 2011 00:20 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:19 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest. I can tell u why... Some of you just come to this threat saying just kill him and move on ... And that makes most of the europe people really angry im pretty sorry to have pushed this in this direction it has nothing to do with the topic. But really dont say something like this pls Yes I'm sure that only makes Europeans angry, us Americans are certainly incapable of opposing the death penalty because we are obviously savages.
He said some americans. Just like he said "most of europe". I'm from Europe and I'm divided about death sentence....still, give the guy a break and read twice, second post attacking him for stuff he didn't say.
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I get how that people are against death penalty in general. But in a case like this I really don't understand their reasoning. There is absolutely no chance that he's innocent, and he just killed 90ish innocent people. How has he earned the right to live?
Try to figure out the motives, whether or not he was alone, then have him executed.
As I understand it, Norway's justice system will allow this fucking idiot to be a free man again in 20 some years?
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On July 24 2011 01:19 Fenrax wrote:
Ok, guys get it. We don't have death penalty in Europe and the majority here doesn't want it. Stop derailing the thread with demanding more dead people.
welcome to the american mob mentality
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On July 24 2011 01:28 zodde wrote:
I get how that people are against death penalty in general. But in a case like this I really don't understand their reasoning. There is absolutely no chance that he's innocent, and he just killed 90ish innocent people. How has he earned the right to live?
Try to figure out the motives, whether or not he was alone, then have him executed.
As I understand it, Norway's justice system will allow this fucking idiot to be a free man again in 20 some years?
Read the OP. And please don't derail this to a pro/con death sentence thread.
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On July 24 2011 01:28 zodde wrote:
I get how that people are against death penalty in general. But in a case like this I really don't understand their reasoning. There is absolutely no chance that he's innocent, and he just killed 90ish innocent people. How has he earned the right to live?
Try to figure out the motives, whether or not he was alone, then have him executed.
As I understand it, Norway's justice system will allow this fucking idiot to be a free man again in 20 some years?
So we should fall to his level and kill him? Why? It wont change anything.
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On July 24 2011 01:28 Eurekastreet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:20 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:19 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On July 24 2011 00:16 Olinim wrote:On July 24 2011 00:15 butchji wrote:On July 24 2011 00:08 DeepElemBlues wrote:Why should we kill people that kill people, to show people that killing is wrong? Mostly to show people that if you do something horrible the government can and will end your life. It doesn't really stop anyone but it makes the public feel better and some people just don't deserve to live. Actually it doesn't make the public feel better. Maybe the US public. Certainly not the Norwegian society. I love how every single thread that even relates to weapons or something of this nature devolves into a shitting on USA contest. I can tell u why... Some of you just come to this threat saying just kill him and move on ... And that makes most of the europe people really angry im pretty sorry to have pushed this in this direction it has nothing to do with the topic. But really dont say something like this pls Yes I'm sure that only makes Europeans angry, us Americans are certainly incapable of opposing the death penalty because we are obviously savages. He said some americans. Just like he said "most of europe". I'm from Europe and I'm divided about death sentence....still, give the guy a break and read twice, second post attacking him for stuff he didn't say.
Oh i missed that thank you very much.
Still can we please stop this death penalty discussion here
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I don't think most people want the death penalty because it's an act of vengeance. I think those who support the death penalty either think it'd be justice served or act as a deterrent to those who don't mind living in jail. As others have said, it hasn't been demonstrated to be an efficient deterrent, but what if it prevents one or two killing sprees like this? Regardless, most of the people here seem quite level headed about the discussion which is gratifying to see. It's something for Norwegian society to decide and for the rest of the world to support.
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EPT
