EPTOn May 24 2011 14:03 GG.NoRe wrote:
Please don't do this here.
Please don't do this here.
I'm sorry. I'd still like to participate in the thread though. No more religious discussion.
Suicide in Korea - Page 8
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GeneralissimoNero
United States236 Posts
I'm sorry. I'd still like to participate in the thread though. No more religious discussion. | ||
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GG.NoRe
Korea (South)1051 Posts
On May 24 2011 13:52 Dfgj wrote: And how would you do that? The system in place is a meritocracy, right from the start - you get into better schools by results. If you simply make it easier for people to get into 'good schools', then those schools would no longer be as good because they don't have the basis of a high standard of academic requirements - and therefore, they would have less prestige, thus weakening the value of going there in the first place. Note that these schools are 'good' partially because of the limited acceptances and the students going there. The system is extremely fair, just incredibly harsh due to how competitive it is. You are both correct actually. I think in essense what VIB is suggesting is for the universities to be universally improved, so that there is no mad dash for millions of students to get to the 3 top universities (where barely 10000 are able to get in every year). It will take the cooperation and support of everyone to do this. Still, the competition is really brutal. if you havent experienced being grade school, middle school or high school in Korea, you have no idea what academic competition means. (Ok this may exaggerate, but Im merely demonstrating), | ||
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On May 24 2011 13:52 Dfgj wrote: You're confusing the cause and the consequence. The schools are not considered good because it's scarce. They're scarce because they're good. Capitalism thrives on scarcity, private schools all around the world go out of their way to make their school as scarce as they can. It's a very well known problem. The solution isn't complicated, it isn't technical, it's political. If a school board decides to cut profits to expand it's business, it can be done. There's plenty of plausible solutions.And how would you do that? The system in place is a meritocracy, right from the start - you get into better schools by results. If you simply make it easier for people to get into 'good schools', then those schools would no longer be as good because they don't have the basis of a high standard of academic requirements - and therefore, they would have less prestige, thus weakening the value of going there in the first place. Note that these schools are 'good' partially because of the limited acceptances and the students going there. | ||
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ShcShc
Canada912 Posts
On May 24 2011 14:02 dartoo wrote: I think this quite a common phenomenon in asian countries, around may-june here, you'll see something like this in the paper about people commiting suicide because they only got 85% in maths. The worst is when people think they did badly, end their life, and later they end up topping their school or whatever. There is just way to much pressure on studies, as in, if you get somewhere around 90% your okay, but below that is plain average. Quite weird. And whats worse is people who get into these top schools dont realize that it's going to get tougher there, because everyone is going to be a slogger, and when they dont do as well as they expect to, you end with headlines like student found hanging in college room, forgetting the fact that even if they go down to the last guy in their class, they are still regarded to be higher than a vast majority of the population. Its more than not having the grades though. Its the fact that you give your whole heart and soul to get the grade and when you don't get it; all you can think of is "OK. Il fucking work EVEN HARDER next time" Then you go on to work harder, but you still don't achieve your objectives and you tell yourself: "Il work EVEN MORE than last time". (it becomes a cycle) Add extreme anxieties, constant stress, constant want to put every effort you can to attain your objective (whatever that may be). The "I will work harder next time" eventually fucks your mood and leads to inevitable depression when you see your friend get a lot better grade for literally 1/10th of the work (+he has the social life that you want but sacrificing it in order to achieve your "goals"). You're in the library working 10-20x harder and longer than everybody else. You're left in your own isolated world trying so hard to do better, trying so hard to catch up...... but you just can't seem to catch up. And you wonder "is it worth it? Whatever, all this hard work should be worth it. I just need to work harder and things will get better... IF I can pass X or Y exam, then I can go get my social life back AND get the job I want". You give it all you got and its still not enough. And you keep thinking the same thing over and over "Slack off less, work harder and you'l achieve your goals". "I don't care I have to sacrifice my health, everything. Hard work will be ALL worth it in the end." And you keep thinking along those lines and STILL not get the results you want, you just end up into a mad depression, makes you feel insane, unfulfilled, etc... When after a few years of extreme hard work, the big test comes... Boom, you didn't get in, you didn't get it and you end up asking yourselves "wow, wtf was the point of all the sacrifice/suffering/hard work that I've did in the last X years??!" ...and you just end up cracking. (yeah my apologies for the poor grammar, 1:40am here and tired) | ||
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NIJ
1012 Posts
On May 24 2011 13:44 VIB wrote: Shouldn't the solution be, instead, to focus on democratizing high quality education so more koreans can get to good schools other than the top3 everyone is obsessed about? koreans will always obsess about top 3. it wont even matter if other public and local community colleges were up to standard identical to top 3. It's a social problem. In a country where class status, caste system and confucian ideals has meant everything for thousands of years and still suffers from that obsession, it won't really matter if you attend the greatest 1000th ranked university in the world. You'll still be looked on as piece of shit if you're not on the top. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On May 24 2011 14:32 VIB wrote: You're confusing the cause and the consequence. The schools are not considered good because it's scarce. They're scarce because they're good. Capitalism thrives on scarcity, private schools all around the world go out of their way to make their school as scarce as they can. It's a very well known problem. The solution isn't complicated, it isn't technical, it's political. If a school board decides to cut profits to expand it's business, it can be done. There's plenty of plausible solutions. that's only partially true. there's a reason why ivy league schools dont just increase their enrollment, and generally why they're all so damn expensive. south korea is also a substantially smaller population/size than the united states. the HUGE educational system that we have here in the U.S. was created largely due to the GI bills post WWII which created a large demand for large universities. not only that but very prestigious universities usually have large endowments, facilities which take a very long time to establish (most of which are donations made by wealthy people who previously graduated). most 'good' schools in the U.S., even top tier public universities have been around for at least ~100 years (the original ivy leagues have been around almost since the founding of America). this doesn't really exist in S.Korea. also you have to think that S.Korea has really become a major economic force in the last 30-40? or so years, things like educational institutions take not only alot of investment from a government perspective, but time as well. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
So how does life turn out for those students that didn't make it into the top 3 uni in korea but made it to another uni? | ||
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GG.NoRe
Korea (South)1051 Posts
On May 24 2011 14:43 NIJ wrote: koreans will always obsess about top 3. it wont even matter if other public and local community colleges were up to standard identical to top 3. It's a social problem. In a country where class status, caste system and confucian ideals has meant everything for thousands of years and still suffers from that obsession, it won't really matter if you attend the greatest 1000th ranked university in the world. You'll still be looked on as piece of shit if you're not on the top. there is no cast system in korea. and i doubt this is about religious beliefs. it has more to do with the poverty of life that elderlies not had to undergo 30-40 years ago that they had to have a tough mentality on life that they passed on to their children. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
On May 24 2011 14:54 GG.NoRe wrote: there is no cast system in korea. and i doubt this is about religious beliefs. it has more to do with the poverty of life that elderlies not had to undergo 30-40 years ago that they had to have a tough mentality on life that they passed on to their children. i think culture definitely plays a bigger role than you think, but yes economic conditions are also a strong contributor. i definitely got my share of immigrant stories when i was growing up. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On May 24 2011 14:50 frodoguy wrote: Afaik, getting into the top 3 uni in korea guarantees success in the country. So how does life turn out for those students that didn't make it into the top 3 uni in korea but made it to another uni? Still pretty good. I have a Korean friend that just went to a normal university in Korea and now hes working for Samsung and seems pretty happy about it when we talked. But if you have a foreign(US,UK) education or top Korean university, you will have much better chance out there. I believe in some thread MightyAtom said that if you graduate from top US school, you are godlike in Korea. | ||
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NIJ
1012 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On May 24 2011 14:54 GG.NoRe wrote: there is no cast system in korea. and i doubt this is about religious beliefs. it has more to do with the poverty of life that elderlies not had to undergo 30-40 years ago that they had to have a tough mentality on life that they passed on to their children. Korean culture is steeped in Confucianism. Present day Korea still carries on the legacy of the Chosun era, and even if the class system has been dismantled the mentality that one must attain a higher social class and that this is to be achieved through academic study is pretty much a continuation of the governmental examinations of the Chosun era. As for poverty, the vast majority of the Korean population lived in poverty during the Chosun era. The social situation of modern Korea is a display of the cultural mentality from Chosun carrying on into a modern capitalist nation and turned into a corrosive system. Now that there aren't any boundaries in social class, everyone is trying to become a modern day yangban to the most obsessive levels. | ||
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
A more reasonable solution would be to teach the kids to watch out for each other. This means fostering an environment/monthly session to teach them how to have defenses-down conversations, and time for them to cooperate and figure out solutions for themselves. Essentially a support group, but minus the weird looks that gets you when you bring it up. This shit cant be forced or ordered into existence, they have to want to perpetuate it. It's about ceding control and crossing your fingers and hope it happens, which is not what most schools would be willing to do. Although the inherent "caste" system in school hierarchies would fuck this up, but if you turn it into just a voluntary show up thing it might be seen as a "looser's club". I have no ideas for these hurdles but this is how i would envision a starting point. | ||
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NIJ
1012 Posts
On May 24 2011 15:10 koreasilver wrote: Korean culture is steeped in Confucianism. Present day Korea still carries on the legacy of the Chosun era, and even if the class system has been dismantled the mentality that one must attain a higher social class and that this is to be achieved through academic study is pretty much a continuation of the governmental examinations of the Chosun era. As for poverty, the vast majority of the Korean population lived in poverty during the Chosun era. The social situation of modern Korea is a display of the cultural mentality from Chosun carrying on into a modern capitalist nation and turned into a corrosive system. Now that there aren't any boundaries in social class, everyone is trying to become a modern day yangban to the most obsessive levels. you summed it up better than i did. good point about entrance exam too, we've always been obsessed about studying in that way. Not everyone can goto top 3 schools. Country full of doctors and lawyers, even if possible is useless. Not everyone has to be the fucking same. Good thing is though, newer generations are already starting to culturally view lot of things differently from older generations. change is rapid in korea today, so there is hope. As these kinds of stories makes more headlines, hopefully newer gens will think more about the underlying issues at hand and change their perspective on things. maybe. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Parents really need to curb the educational arms race they're engaging in though. Children are people, not tools for social advancement. | ||
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LoneWolf.Alpha
United States115 Posts
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GG.NoRe
Korea (South)1051 Posts
On May 24 2011 15:15 Railxp wrote: a psych assessment is meaningless at this point. What needs to be in place is a self sustained and self replicating module to prevent this type of shit. Which means a strong social network for each and every student. If I had my way it would go all the way back to parenting and self-esteem shit, but parents will never want psychologists meddling with their parenting. A more reasonable solution would be to teach the kids to watch out for each other. This means fostering an environment/monthly session to teach them how to have defenses-down conversations, and time for them to cooperate and figure out solutions for themselves. Essentially a support group, but minus the weird looks that gets you when you bring it up. This shit cant be forced or ordered into existence, they have to want to perpetuate it. It's about ceding control and crossing your fingers and hope it happens, which is not what most schools would be willing to do. Although the inherent "caste" system in school hierarchies would fuck this up, but if you turn it into just a voluntary show up thing it might be seen as a "looser's club". I have no ideas for these hurdles but this is how i would envision a starting point. You have to start somewhere. And an immediate psych relief will surely weed out those in the process. Discussion groups is good, but it seems contrary to the culture at the moment. Unless being socially competitive is changed, i think something like that will be painstaking. But there is no doubt competitiveness should be channeled in a healthy way. Nonetheless, an education review should be in place. | ||
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Popss
Sweden176 Posts
So yeah whenever I read about academic pressure in foreign countries it always feel so uhm foreign to me :S | ||
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