On March 22 2011 13:05 xbankx wrote: I am really confused about this situation. I mean from what I heard randomly from news channel and random pieces of news on Yahoo. The opposition started to protest/march. They took over the army bases and weapon storage of the government. The government send army to put down protest. Is there anything I am missing? Because if any anti-government people even in democratic countries such as US and France start to overthrow local government and take over army bases, Im sure those countries would sned its army to put down protest as well. Is there something Im missing?
Gaddifa had government forces violently suppress protests which led to army mutinies since some parts of the army didn't want to kill peaceful protesters. Then mercenaries were brought in to do the dirty work, and then the protesters began getting armed with help from rebel armed forces, and that's pretty much what has led to what's going on now
John McCain - Used military force too late Vladamir Putin - calls it a crusade Arab League - complaining about western intervention Robert Danin, a former State Department official - Americans are worried about paying for Libya rebuilding "Some Conservatives" - Libya is not a vital interest "A contingent of liberal democrats" - condemned the use of military force
best part is that they called it "US-led airstrikes" now that they're angry over it after France got all the good publicity "leading" the attacks a few days ago
Slightly off topic but it's response to another user. The U.S. made a terrible call after Sadam's regime fell within the first month, which was to kick out all the people from positions who were in the Ba'th party, which was the only party in Iraq, basically if you wanted a job, be a soldier, political person you had to be in the party, otherwise you get nothing. What this resulted in was a lot of the officers and military people joining the insurgents and created the problem as to why the U.S. was stuck in Iraq.
Even today, the U.S. calls this the biggest mistake of the war. If they didn't actually kick out all those people, they would of been out of Iraq over 6 years ago. ------
Anyway back on topic,so is the coalition actually bombing just the air defenses or every military base they can get their hands on? This kind of seems "over-board" for just a No Fly Zone.
Either way the coalition will be there as long as Gadaffi is still in power, otherwise there will be severe consequences for them and the rebels in the future if he does survive this somehow.
I'm also a bit surprised that China was not running the oil fields in Libya, but it was the Russians instead. It seems that the Chinese are only ones who are gobbling up every resource they can get their hands on in Africa.
On March 22 2011 03:41 ckw wrote: You are a complete idiot. How stupid can you be to call Obama a warmonger or even compare him to Bush? Oh yeah, you're from Australia and probably don't know jack about whats going on in America except the stupid propagandistic shit you read on line. The economy was fucked before Obama and he is working against the grain trying to straighten stuff up. Thats besides the point tho, if Obama chose to not act in Libya you would probably be the first retard to say something about that.
Didn't Obama boost troop numbers in Afghanistan basically as soon as he got into office?
My preferred action with Libya would be to do nothing , this war is like Iraq in that western nations and corporations want complete control of Libyas oil reserves.Libya is currently one of the richest per capita countries in Africa , when Gaddaffi is out their wealth will plummet as that wealth derived from oil goes to BP , ExxonMobil and Shell instead of to the Libyan people.
Your point about the economy is true but then i can't see why being involved in yet another war will help the US economy and debt levels at all.
I think you need to learn the definition of warmongering. Fighting a war properly that existed BEFORE you took office is NOT warmongering. Starting an unnecessary war on two fronts is.
And since when did this thread deviate so much from the original topic? I came in here to read about what is going on in Libya, not some keyboard commandos arguing over shit we've all read before.
On March 22 2011 03:41 ckw wrote: You are a complete idiot. How stupid can you be to call Obama a warmonger or even compare him to Bush? Oh yeah, you're from Australia and probably don't know jack about whats going on in America except the stupid propagandistic shit you read on line. The economy was fucked before Obama and he is working against the grain trying to straighten stuff up. Thats besides the point tho, if Obama chose to not act in Libya you would probably be the first retard to say something about that.
Didn't Obama boost troop numbers in Afghanistan basically as soon as he got into office?
My preferred action with Libya would be to do nothing , this war is like Iraq in that western nations and corporations want complete control of Libyas oil reserves.Libya is currently one of the richest per capita countries in Africa , when Gaddaffi is out their wealth will plummet as that wealth derived from oil goes to BP , ExxonMobil and Shell instead of to the Libyan people.
Your point about the economy is true but then i can't see why being involved in yet another war will help the US economy and debt levels at all.
I think you need to learn the definition of warmongering. Fighting a war properly that existed BEFORE you took office is NOT warmongering. Starting an unnecessary war on two fronts is.
And since when did this thread deviate so much from the original topic? I came in here to read about what is going on in Libya, not some keyboard commandos arguing over shit we've all read before.
The last time CONGRESS officially declared war was against Germany in 1941.
A minor correction: The last time Congress officially declared war was on June 5 1942, against Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary. Those countries had already declared war on the US in December 1941, but the US ignored them for half a year. Slovakia and Croatia also declared war on the US, and were never acknowledged. Finland was the only German ally to remain neutral in the Axis-US war.
In total, Congress only declared war on 11 occasions in history, and 6 of them in World War 2.
Against: UK, Mexico, Spain, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Japan, Germany, Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, if my memory serves.
US warplane down in Libya # 1011: More on the US warplane that crashed late on Monday in Libya. It is understood that the pilot was taken by rebels and is safe, the Telegraph says. So far there have been no independent confirmation of this report.
# 1025: The US African Command has now confirmed to the BBC that the US warplane crashed in Libya. #
1031: More details on the crash. African Command's Kenneth Fidler tells the BBC the indications are that the crash was not caused "by hostile action". He says that one crew member has been recovered, and an operation is currently under way to recover the other serviceman. # Mr Fidler also confirms that the warplane - F-15E Strike Eagle - crashed overnight. It was not immediately clear where the jet went down.
China calls for immediate cease-fire in Libya, after days of allied airstrikes
China was one of five countries to abstain from last week's UN vote to allow all necessary measures to stop Gadhafi's assault on rebel-held towns.
BEIJING - China called Tuesday for an immediate cease-fire in Libya where the U.S. and European nations have launched punishing airstrikes to enforce a United Nations endorsed no-fly zone.
"All parties must immediately cease fire and resolve issues through peaceful means," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said at a regularly scheduled news conference, citing unconfirmed reports that the airstrikes had caused civilian deaths.
John McCain - Used military force too late Vladamir Putin - calls it a crusade Arab League - complaining about western intervention Robert Danin, a former State Department official - Americans are worried about paying for Libya rebuilding "Some Conservatives" - Libya is not a vital interest "A contingent of liberal democrats" - condemned the use of military force
best part is that they called it "US-led airstrikes" now that they're angry over it after France got all the good publicity "leading" the attacks a few days ago
Christ it sucks being president
Yeah it sucks: International community speaks out against Ghadaffi, calls for action. VN resolution waits until government tanks and artillery have advanced until just outside Benghazi to lay siege. Coalition decides to take action to prevent this in the nip of time (I think another 1 or 2 days and it could have been game over), then get crap from the rest of the world for being the ones to take the initiative.
On March 22 2011 01:15 MrBadMan wrote: If you consider how many US and GB citizens are shareholders of companies like BP and Exxon (millions of people), you have to take everything they say in this matter with a grain of salt. Most of them directly profit financially from a regime change in Lybia.
REALLY? This has to be a troll. How many people living in the US/GB on TL have stock in BP or Exxon? I'm betting that that less than 5% actually own stock in an oil company and thats including mutual fund owners and less than 1% of that 5% are salivating at the thought of a regime change in Libya so that they can get rich. BTW, you don't have to live in the united states or GB to own stock in an oil company.
Using that argument, of all the arguments you could have, to discredit a significant portion of the TL community is... just mindblowing.
I have a small amount of BP shares :D.
A little off topic sorry. However, I think this whole situation is pretty crazy. Also, why do these countries use these anti air guns.. I'm watching tons and tons of rounds go up... seem's really ineffective. No planes have been brought down by them.
Those guns are more for helicopters/gunships rather than stealth bombers. There's only two ways to bring down jet planes. Advanced SAM or your own jet planes. Even SAM has limited effectiveness because it's been about 40 years since a SAM actually brought down a jet.
F-117 (S/N 82-0806) "Something Wicked"[39] remains the only F-117 lost to enemy action. It was lost during a mission against the Army of Yugoslavia on 27 March 1999, during the Kosovo War.[39] The Nighthawk was shot down by a missile fired by elements of the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Air Defence Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani, a Hungarian national with extensive experience in missile defense systems who was employed with the Yugoslav military's air defense.[40] "Something Wicked", callsign "Vega 31", was downed with a Yugoslav version of the Soviet Isayev S-125 'Neva' (NATO name SA-3 'Goa') anti-aircraft missile system.
On March 22 2011 01:15 MrBadMan wrote: If you consider how many US and GB citizens are shareholders of companies like BP and Exxon (millions of people), you have to take everything they say in this matter with a grain of salt. Most of them directly profit financially from a regime change in Lybia.
REALLY? This has to be a troll. How many people living in the US/GB on TL have stock in BP or Exxon? I'm betting that that less than 5% actually own stock in an oil company and thats including mutual fund owners and less than 1% of that 5% are salivating at the thought of a regime change in Libya so that they can get rich. BTW, you don't have to live in the united states or GB to own stock in an oil company.
Using that argument, of all the arguments you could have, to discredit a significant portion of the TL community is... just mindblowing.
I have a small amount of BP shares :D.
A little off topic sorry. However, I think this whole situation is pretty crazy. Also, why do these countries use these anti air guns.. I'm watching tons and tons of rounds go up... seem's really ineffective. No planes have been brought down by them.
Those guns are more for helicopters/gunships rather than stealth bombers. There's only two ways to bring down jet planes. Advanced SAM or your own jet planes. Even SAM has limited effectiveness because it's been about 40 years since a SAM actually brought down a jet.
F-117 (S/N 82-0806) "Something Wicked"[39] remains the only F-117 lost to enemy action. It was lost during a mission against the Army of Yugoslavia on 27 March 1999, during the Kosovo War.[39] The Nighthawk was shot down by a missile fired by elements of the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Air Defence Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani, a Hungarian national with extensive experience in missile defense systems who was employed with the Yugoslav military's air defense.[40] "Something Wicked", callsign "Vega 31", was downed with a Yugoslav version of the Soviet Isayev S-125 'Neva' (NATO name SA-3 'Goa') anti-aircraft missile system.
Ironically the outdated equipment actually helped lead to the nighthawk being shot down. The ancient radar systems used large radar waves compared to modern systems that use higher frequency microwaves. The larger waves were directly responsible for their abillity to get a lock, and lets face it. F117s don't have any real countermeasures once their stealth is gone.
Also, F117s have already been retired from combat because of the B2 Spirit. Modern B2s do not have this vulnerability.
On March 22 2011 01:15 MrBadMan wrote: If you consider how many US and GB citizens are shareholders of companies like BP and Exxon (millions of people), you have to take everything they say in this matter with a grain of salt. Most of them directly profit financially from a regime change in Lybia.
REALLY? This has to be a troll. How many people living in the US/GB on TL have stock in BP or Exxon? I'm betting that that less than 5% actually own stock in an oil company and thats including mutual fund owners and less than 1% of that 5% are salivating at the thought of a regime change in Libya so that they can get rich. BTW, you don't have to live in the united states or GB to own stock in an oil company.
Using that argument, of all the arguments you could have, to discredit a significant portion of the TL community is... just mindblowing.
I have a small amount of BP shares :D.
A little off topic sorry. However, I think this whole situation is pretty crazy. Also, why do these countries use these anti air guns.. I'm watching tons and tons of rounds go up... seem's really ineffective. No planes have been brought down by them.
nono, they very effective, if u have modern sam's, and people who knows how to manage it
On March 22 2011 01:15 MrBadMan wrote: If you consider how many US and GB citizens are shareholders of companies like BP and Exxon (millions of people), you have to take everything they say in this matter with a grain of salt. Most of them directly profit financially from a regime change in Lybia.
REALLY? This has to be a troll. How many people living in the US/GB on TL have stock in BP or Exxon? I'm betting that that less than 5% actually own stock in an oil company and thats including mutual fund owners and less than 1% of that 5% are salivating at the thought of a regime change in Libya so that they can get rich. BTW, you don't have to live in the united states or GB to own stock in an oil company.
Using that argument, of all the arguments you could have, to discredit a significant portion of the TL community is... just mindblowing.
I have a small amount of BP shares :D.
A little off topic sorry. However, I think this whole situation is pretty crazy. Also, why do these countries use these anti air guns.. I'm watching tons and tons of rounds go up... seem's really ineffective. No planes have been brought down by them.
Those guns are more for helicopters/gunships rather than stealth bombers. There's only two ways to bring down jet planes. Advanced SAM or your own jet planes. Even SAM has limited effectiveness because it's been about 40 years since a SAM actually brought down a jet.
F-117 (S/N 82-0806) "Something Wicked"[39] remains the only F-117 lost to enemy action. It was lost during a mission against the Army of Yugoslavia on 27 March 1999, during the Kosovo War.[39] The Nighthawk was shot down by a missile fired by elements of the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Air Defence Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani, a Hungarian national with extensive experience in missile defense systems who was employed with the Yugoslav military's air defense.[40] "Something Wicked", callsign "Vega 31", was downed with a Yugoslav version of the Soviet Isayev S-125 'Neva' (NATO name SA-3 'Goa') anti-aircraft missile system.
Ironically the outdated equipment actually helped lead to the nighthawk being shot down. The ancient radar systems used large radar waves compared to modern systems that use higher frequency microwaves. The larger waves were directly responsible for their abillity to get a lock, and lets face it. F117s don't have any real countermeasures once their stealth is gone.
Also, F117s have already been retired from combat because of the B2 Spirit. Modern B2s do not have this vulnerability.
Again, that is inaccurate. Gazprom made an asset swap with ENI, granting ENI permission to participate in some Siberian projects in exchange for a 33% share in one oilfield in Lybia. The toal value of the swap is rather negligible ($170m).
What I am trying to reinforce here is that Russia has very limited investments in Lybian oil. The major player is Italy through ENI.
On March 22 2011 13:05 xbankx wrote: I am really confused about this situation. I mean from what I heard randomly from news channel and random pieces of news on Yahoo. The opposition started to protest/march. They took over the army bases and weapon storage of the government. The government send army to put down protest. Is there anything I am missing? Because if any anti-government people even in democratic countries such as US and France start to overthrow local government and take over army bases, Im sure those countries would sned its army to put down protest as well. Is there something Im missing?
The shooting of the protesters, leading to defection of army elements and then open rebellion. Those are quite big things that you're missing. Just read this thread from the beginning.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01853/20110320-elderly_1853285i.jpg)
