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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. |
On March 21 2011 21:33 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 21:26 Krehlmar wrote:On March 21 2011 20:30 MrBadMan wrote:
No one knows who the rebel leaders are, what their goals are, and what they are actually protesting against. It would not surprise me if CIA/SAS/MI6 are heavily involved with those "rebels".
I just know a couple hard facts about the Ghaddafi regime: he nationalized the oil ressources 1969, taking them away from british and US oil companies; and under Ghaddafi, Lybia was transformed into the richest African nation, with a standard of living that rivals Portugal.
I also predict: if the current aggression succeeds in removing the Ghaddafi regime, his successor will be a Lybian who has studied in Oxford/Harvard/Yale and has spent the last 10+ years in the USA or in Europe. The first thing he will do is privatize the oil, with bids going to US and British companies. After 10 years, Lybia will be among the poorest countries of Africa again.
I bet the kind of "freedom" those rebels are fighting for is the freedom to privatize the oil ressources, aka "neoliberalism". The Lybians would be crazy if they'd allow this to happen. I'm all for the bombings and western meddeling but this man right here actually hit the spot. What he is saying is 90% correct, if you don't believe him then read up on why Tunisians even revolted in the first place: Ben Ali sold out half the country to private interests from the west, a large reason why nobody gave a shit before the revolution because everyone in the west was ganing from it. It's not conspiracy, it's just facts. My father's tunisian I know this as a fact, my cuisins brother was the minister of the country bank... he overseered the entire sellout (which he couldn't stop sadly). Yes there are to many "OMFG OIL USA CAREFACE" posts but there is ofcourse a huge reason to why the US and West are bombing Libya, but not Baharein or Jemen. Isn't your cousin's brother ... just your cousin? Sounds like a "I know someone who knows someone who knows someone" kind of thing.
No that's not what I ment, translated the swedish word "tremänning" wrong.
What it means is my fathers cuisin. So it isn't as close as my cuisin, rather it's my fathers cusin.
It's not "someone who knows someone", actually my father is quite secretively when discussing the subject most of times because his brother was an Imam who condamned the ex-dicator but because he did was put in prision and tortured. Either way it's a long story which if anyone really cared about I could tell but in the meanwhile trust what I say since I have no reason of lying.
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On March 22 2011 01:28 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 20:30 MrBadMan wrote:
No one knows who the rebel leaders are, what their goals are, and what they are actually protesting against. It would not surprise me if CIA/SAS/MI6 are heavily involved with those "rebels".
Funny you should mention the SAS. Rebel leaders ousted or caught SAS troops about 3 weeks ago. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8365069/Libya-SAS-mission-that-began-and-ended-in-error.htmlThis entire uprising has the smell of the CIA/MI6 all over it. Their handlers in Libya sensed something was afoot and a concerted effort to hijack the revolution took over. This is not crazy talk; this is exactly what happened in '50s, '60s and '70s in South America as well as the Middle East.
Being Chilean, I don't like when people toy with the tragedy that occurred on 9/11 in our country. The CIA helped Pinochet to end the pacific revolution that was going on, not the other way round. And it was during the Cold War.
Saying that this was staged is foolish, I won't even argue. The west wanting to take control of the Libyan revolution, well that's quite obvious, why wouldn't they?
I'm just tired of this debate; I wish Stalth got rid of all that uninformed BS and kept this thread to information.
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On March 22 2011 04:06 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 21:33 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 21 2011 21:26 Krehlmar wrote:On March 21 2011 20:30 MrBadMan wrote:
No one knows who the rebel leaders are, what their goals are, and what they are actually protesting against. It would not surprise me if CIA/SAS/MI6 are heavily involved with those "rebels".
I just know a couple hard facts about the Ghaddafi regime: he nationalized the oil ressources 1969, taking them away from british and US oil companies; and under Ghaddafi, Lybia was transformed into the richest African nation, with a standard of living that rivals Portugal.
I also predict: if the current aggression succeeds in removing the Ghaddafi regime, his successor will be a Lybian who has studied in Oxford/Harvard/Yale and has spent the last 10+ years in the USA or in Europe. The first thing he will do is privatize the oil, with bids going to US and British companies. After 10 years, Lybia will be among the poorest countries of Africa again.
I bet the kind of "freedom" those rebels are fighting for is the freedom to privatize the oil ressources, aka "neoliberalism". The Lybians would be crazy if they'd allow this to happen. I'm all for the bombings and western meddeling but this man right here actually hit the spot. What he is saying is 90% correct, if you don't believe him then read up on why Tunisians even revolted in the first place: Ben Ali sold out half the country to private interests from the west, a large reason why nobody gave a shit before the revolution because everyone in the west was ganing from it. It's not conspiracy, it's just facts. My father's tunisian I know this as a fact, my cuisins brother was the minister of the country bank... he overseered the entire sellout (which he couldn't stop sadly). Yes there are to many "OMFG OIL USA CAREFACE" posts but there is ofcourse a huge reason to why the US and West are bombing Libya, but not Baharein or Jemen. Isn't your cousin's brother ... just your cousin? Sounds like a "I know someone who knows someone who knows someone" kind of thing. No that's not what I ment, translated the swedish word "tremänning" wrong. What it means is my fathers cuisin. So it isn't as close as my cuisin, rather it's my fathers cusin. It's not "someone who knows someone", actually my father is quite secretively when discussing the subject most of times because his brother was an Imam who condamned the ex-dicator but because he did was put in prision and tortured. Either way it's a long story which if anyone really cared about I could tell but in the meanwhile trust what I say since I have no reason of lying.
I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, but it would be foolish to trust in every source you've heard on the Internet, and that in itself is a reason why I'm just saying - unless I can a confirmed source as opposed to "my family knows stuff," is all. Not saying it isn't a possibility, or even most likely, what happened, it's just how it came off  .
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On March 22 2011 04:21 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:06 Krehlmar wrote:On March 21 2011 21:33 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 21 2011 21:26 Krehlmar wrote:On March 21 2011 20:30 MrBadMan wrote:
No one knows who the rebel leaders are, what their goals are, and what they are actually protesting against. It would not surprise me if CIA/SAS/MI6 are heavily involved with those "rebels".
I just know a couple hard facts about the Ghaddafi regime: he nationalized the oil ressources 1969, taking them away from british and US oil companies; and under Ghaddafi, Lybia was transformed into the richest African nation, with a standard of living that rivals Portugal.
I also predict: if the current aggression succeeds in removing the Ghaddafi regime, his successor will be a Lybian who has studied in Oxford/Harvard/Yale and has spent the last 10+ years in the USA or in Europe. The first thing he will do is privatize the oil, with bids going to US and British companies. After 10 years, Lybia will be among the poorest countries of Africa again.
I bet the kind of "freedom" those rebels are fighting for is the freedom to privatize the oil ressources, aka "neoliberalism". The Lybians would be crazy if they'd allow this to happen. I'm all for the bombings and western meddeling but this man right here actually hit the spot. What he is saying is 90% correct, if you don't believe him then read up on why Tunisians even revolted in the first place: Ben Ali sold out half the country to private interests from the west, a large reason why nobody gave a shit before the revolution because everyone in the west was ganing from it. It's not conspiracy, it's just facts. My father's tunisian I know this as a fact, my cuisins brother was the minister of the country bank... he overseered the entire sellout (which he couldn't stop sadly). Yes there are to many "OMFG OIL USA CAREFACE" posts but there is ofcourse a huge reason to why the US and West are bombing Libya, but not Baharein or Jemen. Isn't your cousin's brother ... just your cousin? Sounds like a "I know someone who knows someone who knows someone" kind of thing. No that's not what I ment, translated the swedish word "tremänning" wrong. What it means is my fathers cuisin. So it isn't as close as my cuisin, rather it's my fathers cusin. It's not "someone who knows someone", actually my father is quite secretively when discussing the subject most of times because his brother was an Imam who condamned the ex-dicator but because he did was put in prision and tortured. Either way it's a long story which if anyone really cared about I could tell but in the meanwhile trust what I say since I have no reason of lying. I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, but it would be foolish to trust in every source you've heard on the Internet, and that in itself is a reason why I'm just saying - unless I can a confirmed source as opposed to "my family knows stuff," is all. Not saying it isn't a possibility, or even most likely, what happened, it's just how it came off .
Understandable, also I'm drunk so my grammatics are piss poor.
Its just tragic some an insider perspective, having seen these injustices before most people even knew the countries where they happend... and people seriously think that the west would not have/had interests in these dictatorships: Why condemn one country and ignore another? It's all I am saying; USA is not without intent, but right now even the wrong help is better than no help at all.
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Ok, seriously. I started this thread as a news discussion, can we please keep it as such? None of us know what is going to happen, nor what is truly going on. Let's just keep to reporting the news as we find it. If you guys wanna argue about this stuff, take it to PMs, or make a blog post or something. I'm sick of coming back here every couple of hours and reading through 2-4 pages of bs arguing to find 1-2 pieces of news covered. Fuckin quit it. :-<
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Obama: U.S. policy on Libya is that Gadhafi needs to go
Speaking at news conference in Chile, U.S. president said objective in Libya is to guard civilians from Gadhafi, not oust him; U.S. to transfer lead military role to other allies in matter of days.
United States President Barack Obama said on Monday that the U.S. policy on Libyan leader Muammar Gadhafi is that he "needs to go."
Speaking at a news conference with Chilean President Sebastian Pinera, Obama said the military objective in Libya is to guard civilians from attacks by Gadhafi, not oust him from power.
Source
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Politicians and citizens of Sweden is positive about sending JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircrafts to Libya. Swedish military officials has informed the government that 8 aircrafts are ready to go as well as a Hercules plane for refueling mid air.
For this to happen the swedish political decision organ "Riksdagen" needs to propose a voting and vote for this.
I am really hoping for this to happen
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On March 22 2011 03:41 ckw wrote:
You are a complete idiot. How stupid can you be to call Obama a warmonger or even compare him to Bush? Oh yeah, you're from Australia and probably don't know jack about whats going on in America except the stupid propagandistic shit you read on line. The economy was fucked before Obama and he is working against the grain trying to straighten stuff up. Thats besides the point tho, if Obama chose to not act in Libya you would probably be the first retard to say something about that.
Didn't Obama boost troop numbers in Afghanistan basically as soon as he got into office?
My preferred action with Libya would be to do nothing , this war is like Iraq in that western nations and corporations want complete control of Libyas oil reserves.Libya is currently one of the richest per capita countries in Africa , when Gaddaffi is out their wealth will plummet as that wealth derived from oil goes to BP , ExxonMobil and Shell instead of to the Libyan people.
Your point about the economy is true but then i can't see why being involved in yet another war will help the US economy and debt levels at all.
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On March 22 2011 06:41 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Didn't Obama boost troop numbers in Afghanistan basically as soon as he got into office?
My preferred action with Libya would be to do nothing , this war is like Iraq in that western nations and corporations want complete control of Libyas oil reserves.Libya is currently one of the richest per capita countries in Africa , when Gaddaffi is out their wealth will plummet as that wealth derived from oil goes to BP , ExxonMobil and Shell instead of to the Libyan people.
Your point about the economy is true but then i can't see why being involved in yet another war will help the US economy and debt levels at all.
To be fair, from the beginning Obama said he was going leave Iraq, and send those troops into Afghanistan. It isn't his fault most people were too caught up in the "leave iraq" part to notice the "into Afghanistan" part.
Still if you haven't noticed Afghanistan wasn't going well under the Bush administration. It's not particularly warmonger-y to focus on Afghanistan when it needs it. He has changed the focus and strategy in Afghanistan to diplomacy a lot more, but it's easy to miss that.
P.S. Sorry for continuing the Obama tangent in a news thread but some people are rather difficult to ignore.
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Seriously guys, this isn't the "American Politics" thread (go make one if you wanna debate it so badly), or the "Foreign Intervention" thread (same). This is here for news, not debating the merits of either of those topics.
9:38pm
Loud explosions and barrages of anti-aircraft fire were heard near the Tripoli compound of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi on Monday night, an AFP correspondent said.
The volleys erupted at around 1900GMT near the Bab el-Aziziya barracks in the south of Tripoli, the correspondent said.
AJE Libya Live Blog-Mar 21
23:12 BBC A spokesman for the revolutionaries in Misrata told the BBC that in addition to the 40 casualties, over 200 people were wounded in today’s attack by Gaddafi’s forces. “The situation is a catastrophe,” he said, “the people went out on to the street to demonstrate and the military started shooting at them with heavy weapons. They even shot three ambulances – two of the drivers were killed.”
LibyaFeb17.com
^They report news from other news stations as well as their own sources^
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On March 22 2011 02:45 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 01:15 MrBadMan wrote:
If you consider how many US and GB citizens are shareholders of companies like BP and Exxon (millions of people), you have to take everything they say in this matter with a grain of salt. Most of them directly profit financially from a regime change in Lybia. REALLY? This has to be a troll. How many people living in the US/GB on TL have stock in BP or Exxon? I'm betting that that less than 5% actually own stock in an oil company and thats including mutual fund owners and less than 1% of that 5% are salivating at the thought of a regime change in Libya so that they can get rich. BTW, you don't have to live in the united states or GB to own stock in an oil company. Using that argument, of all the arguments you could have, to discredit a significant portion of the TL community is... just mindblowing.
I have a small amount of BP shares :D.
A little off topic sorry. However, I think this whole situation is pretty crazy. Also, why do these countries use these anti air guns.. I'm watching tons and tons of rounds go up... seem's really ineffective. No planes have been brought down by them.
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On March 22 2011 07:34 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:45 ZeaL. wrote:On March 22 2011 01:15 MrBadMan wrote:
If you consider how many US and GB citizens are shareholders of companies like BP and Exxon (millions of people), you have to take everything they say in this matter with a grain of salt. Most of them directly profit financially from a regime change in Lybia. REALLY? This has to be a troll. How many people living in the US/GB on TL have stock in BP or Exxon? I'm betting that that less than 5% actually own stock in an oil company and thats including mutual fund owners and less than 1% of that 5% are salivating at the thought of a regime change in Libya so that they can get rich. BTW, you don't have to live in the united states or GB to own stock in an oil company. Using that argument, of all the arguments you could have, to discredit a significant portion of the TL community is... just mindblowing. I have a small amount of BP shares :D. A little off topic sorry. However, I think this whole situation is pretty crazy. Also, why do these countries use these anti air guns.. I'm watching tons and tons of rounds go up... seem's really ineffective. No planes have been brought down by them.
Those guns are more for helicopters/gunships rather than stealth bombers. There's only two ways to bring down jet planes. Advanced SAM or your own jet planes. Even SAM has limited effectiveness because it's been about 40 years since a SAM actually brought down a jet.
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On March 22 2011 07:37 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 07:34 BlueBird. wrote:On March 22 2011 02:45 ZeaL. wrote:On March 22 2011 01:15 MrBadMan wrote:
If you consider how many US and GB citizens are shareholders of companies like BP and Exxon (millions of people), you have to take everything they say in this matter with a grain of salt. Most of them directly profit financially from a regime change in Lybia. REALLY? This has to be a troll. How many people living in the US/GB on TL have stock in BP or Exxon? I'm betting that that less than 5% actually own stock in an oil company and thats including mutual fund owners and less than 1% of that 5% are salivating at the thought of a regime change in Libya so that they can get rich. BTW, you don't have to live in the united states or GB to own stock in an oil company. Using that argument, of all the arguments you could have, to discredit a significant portion of the TL community is... just mindblowing. I have a small amount of BP shares :D. A little off topic sorry. However, I think this whole situation is pretty crazy. Also, why do these countries use these anti air guns.. I'm watching tons and tons of rounds go up... seem's really ineffective. No planes have been brought down by them. Those guns are more for helicopters/gunships rather than stealth bombers. There's only two ways to bring down jet planes. Advanced SAM or your own jet planes. Even SAM has limited effectiveness because it's been about 40 years since a SAM actually brought down a jet.
F-117 was shot down over yugoslavia by a SAM in the 90's.
And that is a stealth plane.
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On March 22 2011 07:34 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:45 ZeaL. wrote:On March 22 2011 01:15 MrBadMan wrote:
If you consider how many US and GB citizens are shareholders of companies like BP and Exxon (millions of people), you have to take everything they say in this matter with a grain of salt. Most of them directly profit financially from a regime change in Lybia. REALLY? This has to be a troll. How many people living in the US/GB on TL have stock in BP or Exxon? I'm betting that that less than 5% actually own stock in an oil company and thats including mutual fund owners and less than 1% of that 5% are salivating at the thought of a regime change in Libya so that they can get rich. BTW, you don't have to live in the united states or GB to own stock in an oil company. Using that argument, of all the arguments you could have, to discredit a significant portion of the TL community is... just mindblowing. I have a small amount of BP shares :D. A little off topic sorry. However, I think this whole situation is pretty crazy. Also, why do these countries use these anti air guns.. I'm watching tons and tons of rounds go up... seem's really ineffective. No planes have been brought down by them.
i thought Libya was going to buy some s-300's from Russia but it seems they didnt...their anti air sucks T_T
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Russian petrol companies (Gazprom et al) are running the oil field operations in Lybia. This is what you need to keep in mind when you read about Russia's reaction to this.
Italian companies are involved in running those oil fields, too. That's why it surprised me that one of their ships was brought up, I am pretty sure Italy wants Ghaddafi to stay.
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On March 22 2011 08:33 MrBadMan wrote:
Russian petrol companies (Gazprom et al) are running the oil field operations in Lybia. This is what you need to keep in mind when you read about Russia's reaction to this.
Italian companies are involved in running those oil fields, too. That's why it surprised me that one of their ships was brought up, I am pretty sure Italy wants Ghaddafi to stay.
Italy has effectively cut ties with Ghadaffi. They suspended their whole economic cooperation program 2 (?) weeks back, and Berlusconi has already suggested the use of italian fighters/ships against him. Also, most of the flights over Libya will (and maybe already are, not sure where the brits/french are currently flying from) be launched from Italy.
Italy is betting on the rebels gaining the upper hand I'd said, at least in the part of the country with oil, which doesn't seem absurd considering the rebels controlled it early on in the uprising.
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On March 22 2011 08:33 MrBadMan wrote:
Russian petrol companies (Gazprom et al) are running the oil field operations in Lybia. This is what you need to keep in mind when you read about Russia's reaction to this.
Not saying I don't believe you, but: source?
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On March 22 2011 11:02 Ilfirin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 08:33 MrBadMan wrote:
Russian petrol companies (Gazprom et al) are running the oil field operations in Lybia. This is what you need to keep in mind when you read about Russia's reaction to this.
Not saying I don't believe you, but: source?
He is wrong. ENI (the Italian company) runs (or used to run) them. You can check the daily output by company here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/libya-oil-idUSLDE72E23I20110315
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On March 22 2011 08:33 MrBadMan wrote:
Russian petrol companies (Gazprom et al) are running the oil field operations in Lybia. This is what you need to keep in mind when you read about Russia's reaction to this.
Russia's reaction shouldn't surprise anyone. It's kind of the way that Russia and China respond to any US/UK initiative. The only reason they abstained in the UN vote was because France was kind of leading the charge on Libya.
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I am really confused about this situation. I mean from what I heard randomly from news channel and random pieces of news on Yahoo. The opposition started to protest/march. They took over the army bases and weapon storage of the government. The government send army to put down protest. Is there anything I am missing? Because if any anti-government people even in democratic countries such as US and France start to overthrow local government and take over army bases, Im sure those countries would sned its army to put down protest as well. Is there something Im missing?
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EPT
