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On December 14 2010 01:08 PlaKen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 00:48 DND_Enkil wrote: I try to look at it differently, for me religion is not a fail-safe agaisnt anything or an excuse agaisnt anything either.
It is not "should it be allowed to draw Muhammed?"
It is "why should it be allowed to draw everything exept Muhammed?"
Was all the comic drawings about Clinton that circulated around the Lewinsky-time offensive to him? Yeah probably, but it should still not be against the law to make them.
In my opinion Muslims need to get off thier high horse, it is a shit world and you live in it like the rest of us, dont expect to be the only one one walking around without stains on your clothes. I see no point in making an exeption for you because you are upset about it, i have seen things that upset me aswell but i dont martyr myself because of it. I swallow the nice stinking coctail and move on. Funny that you say the following: "why should it be allowed to draw everything exept Muhammed?" You know...In Islam, it's generally not a good thing to draw any of the prophets (Jesus, Moses, Abraham). In fact, I don't EVER recall seeing a muslim representation of Jesus or a cartoon parody of the prophets drawn by a muslim in a newspaper or anything of the like. I might be wrong but those things are usually condemned. So it's not as though the Muslims are ASKING for it. Also, I really like how everyone here is all for freedom of speech and how they love hiding behind its silky veil after insulting others for no valid reason. What are you saying? That it's fine to baselessly insult Jesus and other prophets like Muhammed for the sake of "humour" and then run back and hide behind the freedom of speech cloak? Please...I find it very unclassy for ANYONE to randomly insult someone else's religion or belief. This type of thing should NOT be supported. Of course, the retards at the other end (aka the terrorists) are looking for an excuse as well but I say, instead of pissing them off, we kill them off...But that's another topic that I don't want to get into right now. With that being said, all you freedom of speech people need to get off that pony of yours and smell the roses. EVERYTHING has its limits...Including freedom of speech.
Except government authority. Anyone being "unclassy" must be arrested immediately. The precise definition of the term "unclassy" shall remain open for the judge to decide. The bureaucracy shall dictate just whom the police will go about arresting, and shall do so under the direction of the Fuhrer, who also controls the Judges, because he can simply have them arrested for being "unclassy".
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You can't compare current radical Muslim extremism with current Christianity and use what if arguments. Look back several centuries to Christian extremism, even during the beginning of the USA. Difference? No IEDs.
People questioned the church, only questioned it, and they were killed or imprisoned. So now, after centuries of critiquing and then mocking the church and we're past those dark times, I'm extremely happy that I didn't have to live through those times.
Does it mean the entire world needs to have pictures of the prophet up everywhere? No. Should people keep drawing them though? To be honest, yes. It's insensitive, but, on the one hand, you need to weed out the extremists, and two, when people make it a point not to draw the prophet(s), you know it's out of respect, not fear, which is what they're searching for in the first place.
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It's Sweden we're talking about, so they'll probably make drawing Muhammad punishable by death in a decade or so. It seems like Swedes on the internet are always the first to defend Muslim extremists because someone "hurt their feelings" and therefore "deserved it".
Very sad to see something like this happening to Sweden.
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On December 14 2010 07:26 Hinanawi wrote: It's Sweden we're talking about, so they'll probably make drawing Muhammad punishable by death in a decade or so. It seems like Swedes on the internet are always the first to defend Muslim extremists because someone "hurt their feelings" and therefore "deserved it".
Very sad to see something like this happening to Sweden. What.. No one is defending muslim extremists. You must be thinking of muslim moderates?
Oh and no I don't think we should be restricting free speech as requested by some group of people. That would mean restricting a whole lot more than just against drawing profets or w/e.
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On December 13 2010 18:58 PaPoolee wrote: You guys are retarded, I don't get it, you are refusing to do something about people who insult other peoples religions? I mean would you be okay with it if you were a Christian and somebody made stupid drawings of Jesus or something and spread it around the world? By saying "Many countries have a policy of not negotiating with terrorists" do you mean that all the Islam religion and Muslims are terrorists just because of the doing of some retarded suicide bomber who thought he is something but really he isn't and he deserved to die? if you are then you've got serious problems, every single country and religion has some fucked up people! you cant judge everyone by the doing of one person. I'm not going to argue about this here because I'm easily out numbered... but seriously! grow the fuck up!.
User was temp banned for this post.
User was temp banned for this post.
Religion is one thing but this is a world of many religions, thousands of different religions and cult groups exist today. The simple question is why do Terrorists care about a cartoon maker? I mean its not like they have to watch the cartoons, they are crude forms of a joke and it makes me LOL that people think its a bad thing to joke about something. Also i am Christian and i dont think ide give a shit if some one made a cartoon Bashing Jesus.. cus wait, is it? o thats right its a fucken cartoon...
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On December 14 2010 07:16 MiniRoman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 04:29 darmousseh wrote: There is absolutely no reason anyone should ever be prohibited from doing anything they like.
I'm sure you didn't really think about writing this down but you really should refrain from making such a huge retarded statement. No reason anyone should ever be prohibited from doing anything just because they like it? Murder, rape, hard drugs are all just fine and good cause the user liked it? Pretty dumb. The only controversial aspect of the free speech debate is the line of a reasonable limit. Anything in excess is bad.
I thought the same thing, but realized he just wasn't thinking before he posted^^.
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On December 14 2010 07:29 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 07:26 Hinanawi wrote: It's Sweden we're talking about, so they'll probably make drawing Muhammad punishable by death in a decade or so. It seems like Swedes on the internet are always the first to defend Muslim extremists because someone "hurt their feelings" and therefore "deserved it".
Very sad to see something like this happening to Sweden. What.. No one is defending muslim extremists. You must be thinking of muslim moderates? Oh and no I don't think we should be restricting free speech as requested by some group of people. That would mean restricting a whole lot more than just against drawing profets or w/e.
As far as I'm concerned, any Muslim who thinks drawing Muhammad should be illegal is an extremist.
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Sweden is getting muslimized, too high imigration-numbers in combination with bad assimilation equals terrorist-attacks like the first we experienced the 11th of December 2010 in Stockholm.
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o.O <--- My picture of Mohammad..
Let them blow themselves up...
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 14 2010 07:35 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 07:29 hifriend wrote:On December 14 2010 07:26 Hinanawi wrote: It's Sweden we're talking about, so they'll probably make drawing Muhammad punishable by death in a decade or so. It seems like Swedes on the internet are always the first to defend Muslim extremists because someone "hurt their feelings" and therefore "deserved it".
Very sad to see something like this happening to Sweden. What.. No one is defending muslim extremists. You must be thinking of muslim moderates? Oh and no I don't think we should be restricting free speech as requested by some group of people. That would mean restricting a whole lot more than just against drawing profets or w/e. As far as I'm concerned, any Muslim who thinks drawing Muhammad should be illegal is an extremist. That's pretty absurd.. People want all kinds of stupid shit to be illegalized. The term extremism refers to the actions of a group of people of a certain ideology, religion or whatever, and thoughts are not actions.
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With resolutions such as these, I'm not surprised. Sure, you can insult somebody on politics, ethics, morals, etc, but when it comes to religion (which usually affects the beliefs of the preceding), we have to be "considerate".
My right to draw a picture of Old Gods, or to make fun of older religions with silly practices, is definitely a freedom of speech. The only difference is there are no Roman Pagans, Aztecs, or the like left alive to raise such a silly fuss about it.
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On December 14 2010 03:15 inlagdsil wrote:I think it comes down to this: the threat of violence cannot be a good reason to limit free speech. Freedom of expression means that one group can tell you that they don't like what you're doing. It doesn't mean that they can shut you up by threatening to kill you. I found this picture in the Random pics that make you laugh thread: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Bwtu5.gif) Anti-semitic pictures like the one on the left abound in the Muslim world. By the standards of those who would say that Sweden should not allow people to draw Mohammed, not only would only the left picture be tolerated, but the guy who drew this comic would be persecuted. Just think of the irony if people went after this artist for drawing Mohammed! Here's an example of an anti-semitic comic in the style of the one parodied up there. It comes from an Egyptian newspaper. I'm putting it here as an illustration of my point, obviously I don't agree with it: + Show Spoiler +
Not to say i agree with these pics. I just don't like ppl who hate period. But this is a lot different than attacking a phrophet. I just fear that this will escalate even more. Didn't they use to draw jews and mock them in Germany. And then it escalated to killing them?
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On December 14 2010 07:48 razboi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:15 inlagdsil wrote:I think it comes down to this: the threat of violence cannot be a good reason to limit free speech. Freedom of expression means that one group can tell you that they don't like what you're doing. It doesn't mean that they can shut you up by threatening to kill you. I found this picture in the Random pics that make you laugh thread: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Bwtu5.gif) Anti-semitic pictures like the one on the left abound in the Muslim world. By the standards of those who would say that Sweden should not allow people to draw Mohammed, not only would only the left picture be tolerated, but the guy who drew this comic would be persecuted. Just think of the irony if people went after this artist for drawing Mohammed! Here's an example of an anti-semitic comic in the style of the one parodied up there. It comes from an Egyptian newspaper. I'm putting it here as an illustration of my point, obviously I don't agree with it: + Show Spoiler + Not to say i agree with these pics. I just don't like ppl who hate period. But this is a lot different than attacking a phrophet. I just fear that this will escalate even more. Didn't they use to draw jews and mock them in Germany. And then it escalated to killing them?
Yes, I know it would be horrible if the Swedes killed Muhammed... (perhaps the Muslims are worried about swedish time travel research)
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On December 14 2010 06:50 DragoonPK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 06:43 Derminator wrote:On December 14 2010 06:20 DragoonPK wrote: The thing that cracks me up is that people leave everything else in the world to make fun of and just concentrate on making fun of other people's prophets xD. Seriously guys, there are lots of other stuff you can go make fun of these days, go crazy! But in the ideal world, I wouldn't want people to make fun of figures that are really important to a group of people. I mean in all honesty, Prophet Mohammed was a great PERSON. If you don't recognize him as a prophet, then at least respect his personality which was even respected by the people who opposed him at his time. I don't enjoy people making fun of these great people that tried to send a pure message like Jesus, Mohammed and Moses (The three biggest religions). Just because of how much good they contributed to the world. Just like I would not like people making fun of other great figures such as Ghandi. Well sure people joke about things all the time. What I am saying is using and depicting these people in very offensive way is not the right thing to do. If you are a sensible person at least. If only we respected everyone equally we wouldn't have been in this mess of a world we are in right now. But oh well, its too fun to give up right? *sigh* Sure, because no one in the western world makes fun of anything else except religious figures, that's right... Do you have any clue how rife the western world is with satire and mockery of all kinds? The question isn't what DO people make fun of, the question is what DON'T they make fun of, and the answer is NOTHING. And yet, some Muslims are WILLING TO COMMIT MURDER because their beloved icon gets treated the same way as EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD. He may be sacred to a lot of people, but he's not to me, and that's what this whole issue comes down to. If someone believes that's an offense worth killing me over, then that's very useful information for me to know. Hey dude. Chill, I wasn't saying that people should go crazy like they did. Thats totally wrong and retarded. What I am hoping for which is proper respect to each other, will never happen I guess. People always find new things to make fun of  .
Look, I'm not trying to piss you off, but this is just not a subject that can be put to rest with a "chill, dude." The simple fact is there are certain elements within Islam that are provoked by this stuff, and we NEED TO PROVOKE THEM. That's the only way they'll be brought out into the open so they can be destroyed. Whether that destruction is brought about by pressure from within the Muslim community or at the end of a US missile is up to the Muslims of the world.
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On December 14 2010 07:58 Derminator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 06:50 DragoonPK wrote:On December 14 2010 06:43 Derminator wrote:On December 14 2010 06:20 DragoonPK wrote: The thing that cracks me up is that people leave everything else in the world to make fun of and just concentrate on making fun of other people's prophets xD. Seriously guys, there are lots of other stuff you can go make fun of these days, go crazy! But in the ideal world, I wouldn't want people to make fun of figures that are really important to a group of people. I mean in all honesty, Prophet Mohammed was a great PERSON. If you don't recognize him as a prophet, then at least respect his personality which was even respected by the people who opposed him at his time. I don't enjoy people making fun of these great people that tried to send a pure message like Jesus, Mohammed and Moses (The three biggest religions). Just because of how much good they contributed to the world. Just like I would not like people making fun of other great figures such as Ghandi. Well sure people joke about things all the time. What I am saying is using and depicting these people in very offensive way is not the right thing to do. If you are a sensible person at least. If only we respected everyone equally we wouldn't have been in this mess of a world we are in right now. But oh well, its too fun to give up right? *sigh* Sure, because no one in the western world makes fun of anything else except religious figures, that's right... Do you have any clue how rife the western world is with satire and mockery of all kinds? The question isn't what DO people make fun of, the question is what DON'T they make fun of, and the answer is NOTHING. And yet, some Muslims are WILLING TO COMMIT MURDER because their beloved icon gets treated the same way as EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD. He may be sacred to a lot of people, but he's not to me, and that's what this whole issue comes down to. If someone believes that's an offense worth killing me over, then that's very useful information for me to know. Hey dude. Chill, I wasn't saying that people should go crazy like they did. Thats totally wrong and retarded. What I am hoping for which is proper respect to each other, will never happen I guess. People always find new things to make fun of  . Look, I'm not trying to piss you off, but this is just not a subject that can be put to rest with a "chill, dude." The simple fact is there are certain elements within Islam that are provoked by this stuff, and we NEED TO PROVOKE THEM. That's the only way they'll be brought out into the open so they can be destroyed. Whether that destruction is brought about by pressure from within the Muslim community or at the end of a US missile is up to the Muslims of the world.
You sir, are the one of the reasons I doubt the validity of free speech.
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This is a very complex issue that we are only looking at one very small tip of. I can understand where they want to stop this trend. I don't think they want to wait to see these cartoons degenerate into something like Jesus Christ superstar or Monty Python 's Holy Grail, or Madonna being a popstar that dresses and acts like a hooker. I can only say at this time that if we respect these people, their religion, and their countries we can get less violence not more. On the other side of the coin I'll admit I'm ignorant on why a cartoon is so blasphmous (sp) that someone would give their life(s) over it. It seems this is only the straw that broke the camels back.
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It's just dumb, radical muslims should really grow some thicker skin, or better yet they should just grow up and stop thinking that their imaginary friend is worth more than other people's imaginary friends.
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On December 14 2010 08:29 Persev wrote: This is a very complex issue that we are only looking at one very small tip of. I can understand where they want to stop this trend. I don't think they want to wait to see these cartoons degenerate into something like Jesus Christ superstar or Monty Python 's Holy Grail, or Madonna being a popstar that dresses and acts like a hooker. I can only say at this time that if we respect these people, their religion, and their countries we can get less violence not more. On the other side of the coin I'll admit I'm ignorant on why a cartoon is so blasphmous (sp) that someone would give their life(s) over it. It seems this is only the straw that broke the camels back. The reason why is because certain Islamic leaders use fundamentalist Islam as a tool to gain power. They want to rile up other Muslims and incite them for their own power struggle. The Denmark cartoon incident is a prime example.+ Show Spoiler +Two imams who had been granted sanctuary in Denmark, dissatisfied with the reaction of the Danish Government and Jyllands-Posten, created a dossier containing a forty-three-page document entitled "Dossier about championing the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him."[30] This consisted of several letters from Muslim organisations explaining their case including allegations of the mistreatment of Danish Muslims, citing the Jyllands-Posten cartoons (including the false claim that said publication was a government-run newspaper) and further containing the following causes of "pain and torment" for the authors: Pictures from another Danish newspaper, Weekendavisen, which they called "even more offending" (than the original 12 cartoons); Hate-mail pictures and letters that the dossier's authors alleged were sent to Muslims in Denmark, said to be indicative of the rejection of Muslims by the Danish; A televised interview discussing Islam with Dutch member of parliament and Islam critic Hirsi Ali, who had received the Freedom Prize "for her work to further freedom of speech and the rights of women" from the Danish Liberal Party represented by Anders Fogh Rasmussen. Appended to the dossier were multiple clippings from Jyllands-Posten, multiple clippings from Weekendavisen, some clippings from Arabic-language papers and three additional images which also had no connection with Denmark. This picture of a French pig-squealing contestant was unrelated to the Muhammed drawings, but was included in the imams' dossier. Original caption included in the dossier: "Her er det rigtige billede af Muhammed", meaning "Here is the real image of Muhammad."[31] The imams claimed that the three additional images were sent anonymously by mail to Muslims who were participating in an online debate on Jyllands-Posten,[32] and were apparently included to illustrate the perceived atmosphere of Islamophobia in which they lived.[33] On 1 February BBC World incorrectly reported that one of them had been published in Jyllands-Posten.[34] This image was later found[35] to be a wire-service photo of a contestant at a French pig-squealing contest in the Trie-sur-Baise's annual festival.[36] One of the other two additional images (a photo) portrayed a Muslim being mounted by a dog while praying, and the other (a cartoon) portrayed Muhammad as a demonic paedophile. Equipped with the dossier, the two imams circulated it throughout the Muslim world, presenting their case to many influential religious and political leaders, asking for support.[37] The dossier[30] contained such statements as the following: We urge you [recipient of the letter or dossier] to — on the behalf of thousands of believing Muslims — to give us the opportunity of having a constructive contact with the press and particularly with the relevant decision makers, not briefly, but with a scientific methodology and a planned and long-term programme seeking to make views approach each other and remove misunderstandings between the two parties involved. Since we do not wish for Muslims to be accused of being backward and narrow, likewise we do not wish for Danes to be accused of ideological arrogance either. When this relationship is back on its track, the result will bring satisfaction, an underpinning of security and the stable relations, and a flourishing Denmark for all that live here. The faithful in their religion (Muslims) suffer under a number of circumstances, first and foremost the lack of official recognition of the Islamic faith. This has led to a lot of problems, especially the lack of right to build mosques [...] Even though they [the Danes] belong to the Christian faith, the secularizations have overcome them, and if you say that they are all infidels, then you are not wrong. We [Muslims] do not need lessons in democracy, but it is actually us, who through our deeds and speeches educate the whole world in democracy. This [Europe's] dictatorial way of using democracy is completely unacceptable. The inclusion in the dossier of the cartoons from Weekendavisen was possibly a misunderstanding, as these were more likely intended as parodies of the pompousness of Jyllands-Posten's cartoons than as comments on Muhammad in their own right.[38] They consist of reproductions of works such as the Mona Lisa (caption: For centuries, a previously unknown society has known that this is a painting of the Prophet, and guarded this secret. The back page's anonymous artist is doing everything he can to reveal this secret in his contribution. He has since then been forced to go underground, fearing for the wrath of a crazy albino imam). This is a parody of the Da Vinci Code. At a 6 December 2005 summit of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), with many heads of state in attendance, the dossier was handed around on the sidelines first,[39] and eventually an official communiqué was issued, demanding that the United Nations impose international sanctions upon Denmark.[40] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy
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People seem so touchy feely about religion and Islam in particular. If some one thinks that they should kill them self and take the lives of others because a picture was drawn, OF ANY THING, they are unfit to live in civilized society.
Persev, this is not a complex issue. There are people out there willing to kill other people because a picture was drawn of their god. Its not complex, its insanity. Muslim extremism makes me sick.
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I am an atheist and i do not hold grudges against whatever religion people choose they all deserve a fair go.
But when threatening to kill people over a cartoon image depicted of their prophet, that is a bit too far.
They can do whatever they want slag on everyone and threaten whoever they like for whatever small reason they have but as soon as another religion reacts or replies it is death threats everywhere.
What has it all gone too.
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