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On December 14 2010 06:44 DragoonPK wrote:
A story: There was once a Jewish man living near Prophet Mohammed's house. The guy hated the prophet to death, he kept throwing animal remains infront of his house, throwing stones at him etc. (Basically stuff to bother the prophet as much as possible. One day this man got sick. So the prophet went to visit the guy. The guy asked, why the hell did you come visit me I try to make your life a misery everyday. The prophet replied by saying, " I didn't see you bothering me the past couple of days so I came to see if something wrong happened to you".
All in all this is just one case of how the prophet usually reacts to things against him. He was never an angry mindless killing machine some people accuses him and his religion of being.
It's always funny to see people quoting the early parts of the Qu'ran, back before muhammad had an army and was massively out numbered by the jewish population. Once he had his first army (which is also when the Islamic calendar starts) is when muhammad begins taking a slightly different approach towards anyone not muslim. You also ignore abrogated parts of the qu'ran and quote them as if they are at all relevant and not abolished.
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i get that "freedom of speech" is important - but, you have to think of the consequence(sp?) when doing something like that.
...i would rather have a "prohibition" instead of violence.
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On December 14 2010 09:10 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 06:44 DragoonPK wrote:
A story: There was once a Jewish man living near Prophet Mohammed's house. The guy hated the prophet to death, he kept throwing animal remains infront of his house, throwing stones at him etc. (Basically stuff to bother the prophet as much as possible. One day this man got sick. So the prophet went to visit the guy. The guy asked, why the hell did you come visit me I try to make your life a misery everyday. The prophet replied by saying, " I didn't see you bothering me the past couple of days so I came to see if something wrong happened to you".
All in all this is just one case of how the prophet usually reacts to things against him. He was never an angry mindless killing machine some people accuses him and his religion of being. It's always funny to see people quoting the early parts of the Qu'ran, back before muhammad had an army and was massively out numbered by the jewish population. Once he had his first army (which is also when the Islamic calendar starts) is when muhammad begins taking a slightly different approach towards anyone not muslim. You also ignore abrogated parts of the qu'ran and quote them as if they are at all relevant and not abolished.
please do elaborate, please
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Must be nice to live in western society where people defend your right to say things like "Death to those who say Islam is violent". But draw a picture of the Islamic prophet..... oh man, now that's crossing the line...
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On December 14 2010 07:45 TheOvermind77 wrote:With resolutions such as these, I'm not surprised. Sure, you can insult somebody on politics, ethics, morals, etc, but when it comes to religion (which usually affects the beliefs of the preceding), we have to be "considerate". My right to draw a picture of Old Gods, or to make fun of older religions with silly practices, is definitely a freedom of speech. The only difference is there are no Roman Pagans, Aztecs, or the like left alive to raise such a silly fuss about it.
Why should we be considerate of others religions? because it is the "right" thing to do? i say bull shit!
making fun of some ones politics, ethics, morals would be the same thing as making fun or "insulting" their religion ... has no difference what so ever. An Insult is an Insult....if you cant take the joke don't read into it, the threats they issued over these drawings are retarded and not even warranted...Its like threatening that 8 year old kid at school to shut his mouth or you'll beat him...they are not going to listen .. also if the pictures/drawings stop that just lets them all know they can bully around any one they want and they will take advantage of that if the sweeds give in, youll start seeing more and more OMG THATS AGIANST MY RELIGION IT HAS TO BE TAKEN DOWN!
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On December 14 2010 08:23 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 07:58 Derminator wrote:On December 14 2010 06:50 DragoonPK wrote:On December 14 2010 06:43 Derminator wrote:On December 14 2010 06:20 DragoonPK wrote:
The thing that cracks me up is that people leave everything else in the world to make fun of and just concentrate on making fun of other people's prophets xD. Seriously guys, there are lots of other stuff you can go make fun of these days, go crazy! But in the ideal world, I wouldn't want people to make fun of figures that are really important to a group of people. I mean in all honesty, Prophet Mohammed was a great PERSON. If you don't recognize him as a prophet, then at least respect his personality which was even respected by the people who opposed him at his time. I don't enjoy people making fun of these great people that tried to send a pure message like Jesus, Mohammed and Moses (The three biggest religions). Just because of how much good they contributed to the world. Just like I would not like people making fun of other great figures such as Ghandi. Well sure people joke about things all the time. What I am saying is using and depicting these people in very offensive way is not the right thing to do. If you are a sensible person at least. If only we respected everyone equally we wouldn't have been in this mess of a world we are in right now. But oh well, its too fun to give up right? *sigh* Sure, because no one in the western world makes fun of anything else except religious figures, that's right... Do you have any clue how rife the western world is with satire and mockery of all kinds? The question isn't what DO people make fun of, the question is what DON'T they make fun of, and the answer is NOTHING. And yet, some Muslims are WILLING TO COMMIT MURDER because their beloved icon gets treated the same way as EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD. He may be sacred to a lot of people, but he's not to me, and that's what this whole issue comes down to. If someone believes that's an offense worth killing me over, then that's very useful information for me to know. Hey dude. Chill, I wasn't saying that people should go crazy like they did. Thats totally wrong and retarded. What I am hoping for which is proper respect to each other, will never happen I guess. People always find new things to make fun of  . Look, I'm not trying to piss you off, but this is just not a subject that can be put to rest with a "chill, dude." The simple fact is there are certain elements within Islam that are provoked by this stuff, and we NEED TO PROVOKE THEM. That's the only way they'll be brought out into the open so they can be destroyed. Whether that destruction is brought about by pressure from within the Muslim community or at the end of a US missile is up to the Muslims of the world. You sir, are the one of the reasons I doubt the validity of free speech.
I have to assume the word you meant to use was "benefit" or "logic", not "validity" here, correct? If so, and you don't understand why free speech is so important, then it's rather important you educate yourself. Since it's the basis of the entirety of western culture, it's kinda important you understand.
And it's exactly that freedom that you are being asked to give up, hell, that you seem to be WILLING to give up, just for the sake of not pissing off some assholes. That's what you are suggesting in your little "100,000 people" hypothetical from a page back. Unfortunately, your thought experiment is utterly worthless since this is not a question of giving anything up for "1 week", this is giving it up forever. What's more, there's a difference between being forced to do something and being a willing participant. In this real world situation, it appears you would be a willing participant in the loss of your own freedom.
You're suggesting we should dictate by law what people can and cannot say, because what they say might piss off some homicidal maniacs.
Really? Are you really so afraid of some lunatic strapping a bomb to himself that you would forfeit the underpinnings of all of western culture just to be safe from it?
If you can't understand the problem with that, move to North Korea, they'll show you pretty quickly the value of freedom of speech.
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On December 14 2010 09:18 preacha wrote:
i get that "freedom of speech" is important - but, you have to think of the consequence(sp?) when doing something like that.
...i would rather have a "prohibition" instead of violence.
Ban these cartoons and these people will find something else to blow themselves up over. Restriction on free speech will not change the fact that there are warped people who want to kill you because you don't subjugate yourself to their fucked up interpretation of Islam.
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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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On December 14 2010 10:06 P00RKID wrote:
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Thomas Jefferson?
edit. Ben Franklin
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On December 14 2010 09:25 Nazarid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 07:45 TheOvermind77 wrote:With resolutions such as these, I'm not surprised. Sure, you can insult somebody on politics, ethics, morals, etc, but when it comes to religion (which usually affects the beliefs of the preceding), we have to be "considerate". My right to draw a picture of Old Gods, or to make fun of older religions with silly practices, is definitely a freedom of speech. The only difference is there are no Roman Pagans, Aztecs, or the like left alive to raise such a silly fuss about it. Why should we be considerate of others religions? because it is the "right" thing to do? i say bull shit! making fun of some ones politics, ethics, morals would be the same thing as making fun or "insulting" their religion ... has no difference what so ever. An Insult is an Insult....if you cant take the joke don't read into it, the threats they issued over these drawings are retarded and not even warranted...Its like threatening that 8 year old kid at school to shut his mouth or you'll beat him...they are not going to listen .. also if the pictures/drawings stop that just lets them all know they can bully around any one they want and they will take advantage of that if the sweeds give in, youll start seeing more and more OMG THATS AGIANST MY RELIGION IT HAS TO BE TAKEN DOWN!
I think you misunderstood. I put "considerate" in quotations. And we do belittle old religions. That's my point. I see no problem with doing that to the current ones, and not doing so, especially when they warrant it, is hypocrisy. We SHOULD be able to insult religion as much as politics, ethics, and morals. Especially when they have a track record of performing some of the most disgusting acts in all of human history.
And to be clear, this isn't just an Islam thing. Christians recently went berserk a movie shown at the Smithsonian that depicted a rotting cross. This video was made by an artist who died from AIDS, a disease which Catholics in particular have helped to spread all across Africa despite the works of medical professionals to encourage the use of condoms. The Smithsonian had it removed.
Apparently, the religious think that they should have the right to say whatever they want but when someone says something that might offend them, HANDS OFF!
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On December 14 2010 01:28 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 22:44 Hatsu wrote:On December 13 2010 22:22 sekritzzz wrote:
So say I post an offensive picture of dead 9/11 victims, would that be freedom of speech? I mean, it is my right to post pictures of dead people, no? I would of done it in reply to the Muhammad (peace be upon him) picture posted previously but I actually do have respect for the dead. Most people don't even know how high in regard Muslims have Muhammad, Jesus, Moses or any of the other prophets (peace be upon them all). Most muslims would give up their life in place of one of them but the level of selflessness is far beyond a lot of peoples scopes.
The problem isn't even freedom of speech since most people are hypocrites when it comes to freedom of speech. When it was the Mosque close to 9/11 people called it insensitive, when its Muhammad pics its freedom of speech, when its the holocaust its insensitive, when its wikileaks its freedom of speech. All the same crap, different opinions. Whenever the opinion swings in your favour you pull the freedom of speech card. When its offensive to you or people you know its insensitive. Well one day it'll all be solved and I look forward to it. You have got a point there, but sorry if I focus on this specific issue and lask you this: why should I, a non-Muslim individual who does not agree with this specific Islamic dogma, not act to show my disagreement? Why should I care about people getting offended by something that is a matter of opinion? The thing is, I personally am not asking anyone to care its really up to you. I'm talking about the hypocrisy of complete freedom of speech which a lot of people preach from the West. They preach human right violations in China yet they have guantanamo bay right in their backdoor. They talk about Taliban monsters, yet they've killed over 2 million muslims, scratch that 2 million terrorists since 9/11 according to them. Its sad how repetitive history is. Just a few centuries ago, the aborigines/blacks/native American Indians were the savages and the Europeans felt the need to save them by making them civil by completely destroying them. As much as I'd like this West-Islam tension to cool down and go down a peaceful road, I honestly believe it isn't going to happen. As sad as this sounds, I think this is just going to lead to something as big as the fight for black rights/jews during the holocaust, if not bigger before its ever resolved.
Nice posts, both of them.
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Arguing over religion is almost as dumb as being religious.
User was warned for this post
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i don't really see the point in agitating something which you know is going to bite back hard. people that draw comics of muhammad are obviously trying to provoke a response.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
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On December 14 2010 11:12 TheOvermind77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 09:25 Nazarid wrote:On December 14 2010 07:45 TheOvermind77 wrote:With resolutions such as these, I'm not surprised. Sure, you can insult somebody on politics, ethics, morals, etc, but when it comes to religion (which usually affects the beliefs of the preceding), we have to be "considerate". My right to draw a picture of Old Gods, or to make fun of older religions with silly practices, is definitely a freedom of speech. The only difference is there are no Roman Pagans, Aztecs, or the like left alive to raise such a silly fuss about it. Why should we be considerate of others religions? because it is the "right" thing to do? i say bull shit! making fun of some ones politics, ethics, morals would be the same thing as making fun or "insulting" their religion ... has no difference what so ever. An Insult is an Insult....if you cant take the joke don't read into it, the threats they issued over these drawings are retarded and not even warranted...Its like threatening that 8 year old kid at school to shut his mouth or you'll beat him...they are not going to listen .. also if the pictures/drawings stop that just lets them all know they can bully around any one they want and they will take advantage of that if the sweeds give in, youll start seeing more and more OMG THATS AGIANST MY RELIGION IT HAS TO BE TAKEN DOWN! I think you misunderstood. I put "considerate" in quotations. And we do belittle old religions. That's my point. I see no problem with doing that to the current ones, and not doing so, especially when they warrant it, is hypocrisy. We SHOULD be able to insult religion as much as politics, ethics, and morals. Especially when they have a track record of performing some of the most disgusting acts in all of human history. And to be clear, this isn't just an Islam thing. Christians recently went berserk a movie shown at the Smithsonian that depicted a rotting cross. This video was made by an artist who died from AIDS, a disease which Catholics in particular have helped to spread all across Africa despite the works of medical professionals to encourage the use of condoms. The Smithsonian had it removed. Apparently, the religious think that they should have the right to say whatever they want but when someone says something that might offend them, HANDS OFF!
hehe yeah just from one series we get that the norse gods are little grey dudes.. while the egyptian gods and the devil is simply a worm that has taken a human as a host 
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We should never bend to anyone's demands, freedom of speech is a lot more important then someone's religious beliefs.
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Canada does not have an unbreakable freedom of speech; in fact all of the rights guaranteed in the Charter can be overlooked in certain circumstances.
That being said, protection of religious sanctity should not be one of those circumstances. A person's speech should not be restricted simply because it violates the moral code of a certain religion, because there are a hell of a lot of religions out there and (considering the way the Canadian judiciary works) if you appease one, you have to appease them all out of a sense of equality.
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On December 14 2010 11:12 TheOvermind77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 09:25 Nazarid wrote:On December 14 2010 07:45 TheOvermind77 wrote:With resolutions such as these, I'm not surprised. Sure, you can insult somebody on politics, ethics, morals, etc, but when it comes to religion (which usually affects the beliefs of the preceding), we have to be "considerate". My right to draw a picture of Old Gods, or to make fun of older religions with silly practices, is definitely a freedom of speech. The only difference is there are no Roman Pagans, Aztecs, or the like left alive to raise such a silly fuss about it. Why should we be considerate of others religions? because it is the "right" thing to do? i say bull shit! making fun of some ones politics, ethics, morals would be the same thing as making fun or "insulting" their religion ... has no difference what so ever. An Insult is an Insult....if you cant take the joke don't read into it, the threats they issued over these drawings are retarded and not even warranted...Its like threatening that 8 year old kid at school to shut his mouth or you'll beat him...they are not going to listen .. also if the pictures/drawings stop that just lets them all know they can bully around any one they want and they will take advantage of that if the sweeds give in, youll start seeing more and more OMG THATS AGIANST MY RELIGION IT HAS TO BE TAKEN DOWN! I think you misunderstood. I put "considerate" in quotations. And we do belittle old religions. That's my point. I see no problem with doing that to the current ones, and not doing so, especially when they warrant it, is hypocrisy. We SHOULD be able to insult religion as much as politics, ethics, and morals. Especially when they have a track record of performing some of the most disgusting acts in all of human history. And to be clear, this isn't just an Islam thing. Christians recently went berserk a movie shown at the Smithsonian that depicted a rotting cross. This video was made by an artist who died from AIDS, a disease which Catholics in particular have helped to spread all across Africa despite the works of medical professionals to encourage the use of condoms. The Smithsonian had it removed. Apparently, the religious think that they should have the right to say whatever they want but when someone says something that might offend them, HANDS OFF!
Very nice post, can't agree more.
As the 'four horsemen of atheism' commonly argue (notably Dawkins), it has never been more pressing than now to break down the perception that any religion is above criticism.
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EPT
