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On December 13 2010 20:58 amarai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 20:44 Nizaris wrote:On December 13 2010 19:44 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:41 Blobskillz wrote:On December 13 2010 19:32 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:28 BeWat3r wrote:On December 13 2010 19:15 daz wrote:On December 13 2010 18:57 BeWat3r wrote:
I think T.O.P has some good points on his side.
One of the biggest problems with those extremists is, they hide themself under the sheet of the muslims. They may say, they belong to this certain group, but the things they do, do not have anything in common with the Qran.
I think you need to read the Quran I did :-) Ofc the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels. The problem is, the people who commit those sucizide attacks got blinded by some false prophets. They tell them what to do not the Quran. Pretty simple because most of those people can not read, so they do follow everything they have been told Where are you getting the information your stating here? and where exactly have you read the Qur'an? What exactly do you mean by "the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels."? What old parts are you talking about? do they release a new version of the Qur'an and the Bible every couple of months? are you stupid?. I think he's talking about religious leaders that dont stick to the Qur'an itself but to some newer hadith, that dont need to have any connection to the qur'an even though they try to make that connection. Well that's false information and it is irrelevant and people who believe false information are stupid. So you are basically saying all religious ppl are stupid since the Coran and the Bible is false information ? Unless you really believe he walked on water i guess.... Who are you to say it is false information? Has it been proven to be false? Thats like saying all the people who believe in evolution or the big bang theory are stupid because they are just theories and are not proven. What he is trying to say is if the Quran says one thing and and someone says something different and is trying to associate it with the religion when it actually isn't than it is false and irrelevant.
I hate arguments like this one, just because the Big bang is a theory doesn't put it in the same group as religion.
The big bang is based on very solid science, with lots of observation to back it up. Evolution isn't a theory anymore.... it is fact. Science doesn't remove the word theory from anything ,even once its proven because there might be an even more elegant proof beyond it. Pythagoras theory has been proven thousands of times over thousands of years, but its still known as "The Pythagoras Theorum".
Religion has no proof other than "because I said so" and will never have more proof until god stands before us and shows us his/her power. Religion is not logical, at least not in the modern age when we can explain most of the stuff the bible and other religious texts were written to explain. If you want to believe in a religion, thats fine, more power to you, but you have no right to try to impose your values on anyone else.
Muslims have good reasons to not portray Muhammed, I understand them and respect them, however I am not Muslim and I do not agree with their reasons therefore if i want to do some satire using Muhammed I will and I should be able to do it without fear of death. In Muslim countries you will see horrible pictures of the current President being buttfucked or shot or whatever being held up at anti US rallies, this is their version of satire and we don't then say "you can't draw stuff like that of a president... now we kill you" its ridiculous.
Most Muslims who grow up in western countries understand that satire is a heathy by-product of free speech, I know a Muslim comedian who does alot of material about Jesus being gay and the crowd of both Muslim and non-muslim people laugh it up.... even the christians.
Should we mock people's beliefs? Perhaps we shouldn't, but critism is the best mechanism for change and when there are people in the world who can blow me up along with 1000 of my countrymen at any moment, you best believe I am gonna make Muhammed jokes. I would rather die than give up my right to express myself
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On December 15 2010 03:02 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 20:58 amarai wrote:On December 13 2010 20:44 Nizaris wrote:On December 13 2010 19:44 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:41 Blobskillz wrote:On December 13 2010 19:32 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:28 BeWat3r wrote:On December 13 2010 19:15 daz wrote:On December 13 2010 18:57 BeWat3r wrote:
I think T.O.P has some good points on his side.
One of the biggest problems with those extremists is, they hide themself under the sheet of the muslims. They may say, they belong to this certain group, but the things they do, do not have anything in common with the Qran.
I think you need to read the Quran I did :-) Ofc the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels. The problem is, the people who commit those sucizide attacks got blinded by some false prophets. They tell them what to do not the Quran. Pretty simple because most of those people can not read, so they do follow everything they have been told Where are you getting the information your stating here? and where exactly have you read the Qur'an? What exactly do you mean by "the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels."? What old parts are you talking about? do they release a new version of the Qur'an and the Bible every couple of months? are you stupid?. I think he's talking about religious leaders that dont stick to the Qur'an itself but to some newer hadith, that dont need to have any connection to the qur'an even though they try to make that connection. Well that's false information and it is irrelevant and people who believe false information are stupid. So you are basically saying all religious ppl are stupid since the Coran and the Bible is false information ? Unless you really believe he walked on water i guess.... Who are you to say it is false information? Has it been proven to be false? Thats like saying all the people who believe in evolution or the big bang theory are stupid because they are just theories and are not proven. What he is trying to say is if the Quran says one thing and and someone says something different and is trying to associate it with the religion when it actually isn't than it is false and irrelevant. I hate arguments like this one, just because the Big bang is a theory doesn't put it in the same group as religion. The big bang is based on very solid science, with lots of observation to back it up. Evolution isn't a theory anymore.... it is fact. Science doesn't remove the word theory from anything ,even once its proven because there might be an even more elegant proof beyond it. Pythagoras theory has been proven thousands of times over thousands of years, but its still known as "The Pythagoras Theorum". Religion has no proof other than "because I said so" and will never have more proof until god stands before us and shows us his/her power. Religion is not logical, at least not in the modern age when we can explain most of the stuff the bible and other religious texts were written to explain. If you want to believe in a religion, thats fine, more power to you, but you have no right to try to impose your values on anyone else. Muslims have good reasons to not portray Muhammed, I understand them and respect them, however I am not Muslim and I do not agree with their reasons therefore if i want to do some satire using Muhammed I will and I should be able to do it without fear of death. In Muslim countries you will see horrible pictures of the current President being buttfucked or shot or whatever being held up at anti US rallies, this is their version of satire and we don't then say "you can't draw stuff like that of a president... now we kill you" its ridiculous. Most Muslims who grow up in western countries understand that satire is a heathy by-product of free speech, I know a Muslim comedian who does alot of material about Jesus being gay and the crowd of both Muslim and non-muslim people laugh it up.... even the christians. Should we mock people's beliefs? Perhaps we shouldn't, but critism is the best mechanism for change and when there are people in the world who can blow me up along with 1000 of my countrymen at any moment, you best believe I am gonna make Muhammed jokes. I would rather die than give up my right to express myself
"Criticism is the best mechanism for change."
This should be shouted in the streets. If religion can't be criticized it will remain forever an archaic by-product of ancient human stupidity that has absolutely no place in the modern, scientific world.
Religion should be criticized, scrutinized and thought about deeply by every single believer and nonbeliever on the planet. There's no harm in criticism, and if your theories stand up to all criticism they are good theories, and if not they must be revised. So far, no religion has stood up to my decade of criticism, and in my eyes no religion is therefore worth believing in its current state.
But, religion being what it is cannot change. The books don't get revised to accommodate new evidence or arguments. That's why I gave up on religion, and that's the only way religious people will give up on their beliefs. Thought. Scrutiny. Doubt. And criticism.
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Well if a person can make satirical political comics, why can this not be true for Islam? Also what if the person drew a stick figure and it said on the stick figure this is Mohamed. It also could say in caption he was a great man and follow his teaching, but do not idealize this image. Should that be illegal for people to do? Also I read a few pages in and I seem to not get where this line should be drawn.
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On December 15 2010 03:02 emythrel wrote:Pythagoras theory has been proven thousands of times over thousands of years, but its still known as "The Pythagoras Theorum".
In mathematics something is only a theorem or lemma if it has been proven. If The Pythagoras Theorem was unproven it would be a hypothesis. In science it seems to work differently, after all String Theory is by no means proven but it's still apparently called a theory.
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Background info: I am muslim.
My opinion on this: Every religion is getting mocked somewhere by someone. Why would mocking certain religion should be more important than other? It shouldn't. In this case, many ignorant people (mostly muslims) are making look themselves like fools, threatening the author. Yes, I hate the guy and I hate what he is doing but he is not the only one, and other people are making fun of catholics for example. Don't get heated over one retard, just ignore, that's the best way.
And terrorists are just retards, I hope people will understand that they are not muslim
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On December 15 2010 03:02 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 20:58 amarai wrote:On December 13 2010 20:44 Nizaris wrote:On December 13 2010 19:44 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:41 Blobskillz wrote:On December 13 2010 19:32 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:28 BeWat3r wrote:On December 13 2010 19:15 daz wrote:On December 13 2010 18:57 BeWat3r wrote:
I think T.O.P has some good points on his side.
One of the biggest problems with those extremists is, they hide themself under the sheet of the muslims. They may say, they belong to this certain group, but the things they do, do not have anything in common with the Qran.
I think you need to read the Quran I did :-) Ofc the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels. The problem is, the people who commit those sucizide attacks got blinded by some false prophets. They tell them what to do not the Quran. Pretty simple because most of those people can not read, so they do follow everything they have been told Where are you getting the information your stating here? and where exactly have you read the Qur'an? What exactly do you mean by "the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels."? What old parts are you talking about? do they release a new version of the Qur'an and the Bible every couple of months? are you stupid?. I think he's talking about religious leaders that dont stick to the Qur'an itself but to some newer hadith, that dont need to have any connection to the qur'an even though they try to make that connection. Well that's false information and it is irrelevant and people who believe false information are stupid. So you are basically saying all religious ppl are stupid since the Coran and the Bible is false information ? Unless you really believe he walked on water i guess.... Who are you to say it is false information? Has it been proven to be false? Thats like saying all the people who believe in evolution or the big bang theory are stupid because they are just theories and are not proven. What he is trying to say is if the Quran says one thing and and someone says something different and is trying to associate it with the religion when it actually isn't than it is false and irrelevant. I hate arguments like this one, just because the Big bang is a theory doesn't put it in the same group as religion. The big bang is based on very solid science, with lots of observation to back it up. Evolution isn't a theory anymore.... it is fact. Science doesn't remove the word theory from anything ,even once its proven because there might be an even more elegant proof beyond it. Pythagoras theory has been proven thousands of times over thousands of years, but its still known as "The Pythagoras Theorum". Religion has no proof other than "because I said so" and will never have more proof until god stands before us and shows us his/her power. Religion is not logical, at least not in the modern age when we can explain most of the stuff the bible and other religious texts were written to explain. If you want to believe in a religion, thats fine, more power to you, but you have no right to try to impose your values on anyone else. Muslims have good reasons to not portray Muhammed, I understand them and respect them, however I am not Muslim and I do not agree with their reasons therefore if i want to do some satire using Muhammed I will and I should be able to do it without fear of death. In Muslim countries you will see horrible pictures of the current President being buttfucked or shot or whatever being held up at anti US rallies, this is their version of satire and we don't then say "you can't draw stuff like that of a president... now we kill you" its ridiculous. Most Muslims who grow up in western countries understand that satire is a heathy by-product of free speech, I know a Muslim comedian who does alot of material about Jesus being gay and the crowd of both Muslim and non-muslim people laugh it up.... even the christians. Should we mock people's beliefs? Perhaps we shouldn't, but critism is the best mechanism for change and when there are people in the world who can blow me up along with 1000 of my countrymen at any moment, you best believe I am gonna make Muhammed jokes. I would rather die than give up my right to express myself
I agree. It's just a theory has to be the the most ignorant argument I have ever heard. Guess what Newton's theory of gravitation is just a theory but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in gravity.
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On December 15 2010 04:20 Jswizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 03:02 emythrel wrote:On December 13 2010 20:58 amarai wrote:On December 13 2010 20:44 Nizaris wrote:On December 13 2010 19:44 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:41 Blobskillz wrote:On December 13 2010 19:32 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:28 BeWat3r wrote:On December 13 2010 19:15 daz wrote:On December 13 2010 18:57 BeWat3r wrote:
I think T.O.P has some good points on his side.
One of the biggest problems with those extremists is, they hide themself under the sheet of the muslims. They may say, they belong to this certain group, but the things they do, do not have anything in common with the Qran.
I think you need to read the Quran I did :-) Ofc the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels. The problem is, the people who commit those sucizide attacks got blinded by some false prophets. They tell them what to do not the Quran. Pretty simple because most of those people can not read, so they do follow everything they have been told Where are you getting the information your stating here? and where exactly have you read the Qur'an? What exactly do you mean by "the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels."? What old parts are you talking about? do they release a new version of the Qur'an and the Bible every couple of months? are you stupid?. I think he's talking about religious leaders that dont stick to the Qur'an itself but to some newer hadith, that dont need to have any connection to the qur'an even though they try to make that connection. Well that's false information and it is irrelevant and people who believe false information are stupid. So you are basically saying all religious ppl are stupid since the Coran and the Bible is false information ? Unless you really believe he walked on water i guess.... Who are you to say it is false information? Has it been proven to be false? Thats like saying all the people who believe in evolution or the big bang theory are stupid because they are just theories and are not proven. What he is trying to say is if the Quran says one thing and and someone says something different and is trying to associate it with the religion when it actually isn't than it is false and irrelevant. I hate arguments like this one, just because the Big bang is a theory doesn't put it in the same group as religion. The big bang is based on very solid science, with lots of observation to back it up. Evolution isn't a theory anymore.... it is fact. Science doesn't remove the word theory from anything ,even once its proven because there might be an even more elegant proof beyond it. Pythagoras theory has been proven thousands of times over thousands of years, but its still known as "The Pythagoras Theorum". Religion has no proof other than "because I said so" and will never have more proof until god stands before us and shows us his/her power. Religion is not logical, at least not in the modern age when we can explain most of the stuff the bible and other religious texts were written to explain. If you want to believe in a religion, thats fine, more power to you, but you have no right to try to impose your values on anyone else. Muslims have good reasons to not portray Muhammed, I understand them and respect them, however I am not Muslim and I do not agree with their reasons therefore if i want to do some satire using Muhammed I will and I should be able to do it without fear of death. In Muslim countries you will see horrible pictures of the current President being buttfucked or shot or whatever being held up at anti US rallies, this is their version of satire and we don't then say "you can't draw stuff like that of a president... now we kill you" its ridiculous. Most Muslims who grow up in western countries understand that satire is a heathy by-product of free speech, I know a Muslim comedian who does alot of material about Jesus being gay and the crowd of both Muslim and non-muslim people laugh it up.... even the christians. Should we mock people's beliefs? Perhaps we shouldn't, but critism is the best mechanism for change and when there are people in the world who can blow me up along with 1000 of my countrymen at any moment, you best believe I am gonna make Muhammed jokes. I would rather die than give up my right to express myself I agree. It's just a theory has to be the the most ignorant argument I have ever heard. Guess what Newton's theory of gravitation is just a theory but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in gravity.
Newton's theory of gravity is also wrong.. Don't believe in it!
Completely serious
User was warned for this post
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On December 15 2010 04:26 Krikkitone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:20 Jswizzy wrote:On December 15 2010 03:02 emythrel wrote:On December 13 2010 20:58 amarai wrote:On December 13 2010 20:44 Nizaris wrote:On December 13 2010 19:44 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:41 Blobskillz wrote:On December 13 2010 19:32 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:28 BeWat3r wrote:On December 13 2010 19:15 daz wrote:
[quote]
I think you need to read the Quran I did :-) Ofc the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels. The problem is, the people who commit those sucizide attacks got blinded by some false prophets. They tell them what to do not the Quran. Pretty simple because most of those people can not read, so they do follow everything they have been told Where are you getting the information your stating here? and where exactly have you read the Qur'an? What exactly do you mean by "the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels."? What old parts are you talking about? do they release a new version of the Qur'an and the Bible every couple of months? are you stupid?. I think he's talking about religious leaders that dont stick to the Qur'an itself but to some newer hadith, that dont need to have any connection to the qur'an even though they try to make that connection. Well that's false information and it is irrelevant and people who believe false information are stupid. So you are basically saying all religious ppl are stupid since the Coran and the Bible is false information ? Unless you really believe he walked on water i guess.... Who are you to say it is false information? Has it been proven to be false? Thats like saying all the people who believe in evolution or the big bang theory are stupid because they are just theories and are not proven. What he is trying to say is if the Quran says one thing and and someone says something different and is trying to associate it with the religion when it actually isn't than it is false and irrelevant. I hate arguments like this one, just because the Big bang is a theory doesn't put it in the same group as religion. The big bang is based on very solid science, with lots of observation to back it up. Evolution isn't a theory anymore.... it is fact. Science doesn't remove the word theory from anything ,even once its proven because there might be an even more elegant proof beyond it. Pythagoras theory has been proven thousands of times over thousands of years, but its still known as "The Pythagoras Theorum". Religion has no proof other than "because I said so" and will never have more proof until god stands before us and shows us his/her power. Religion is not logical, at least not in the modern age when we can explain most of the stuff the bible and other religious texts were written to explain. If you want to believe in a religion, thats fine, more power to you, but you have no right to try to impose your values on anyone else. Muslims have good reasons to not portray Muhammed, I understand them and respect them, however I am not Muslim and I do not agree with their reasons therefore if i want to do some satire using Muhammed I will and I should be able to do it without fear of death. In Muslim countries you will see horrible pictures of the current President being buttfucked or shot or whatever being held up at anti US rallies, this is their version of satire and we don't then say "you can't draw stuff like that of a president... now we kill you" its ridiculous. Most Muslims who grow up in western countries understand that satire is a heathy by-product of free speech, I know a Muslim comedian who does alot of material about Jesus being gay and the crowd of both Muslim and non-muslim people laugh it up.... even the christians. Should we mock people's beliefs? Perhaps we shouldn't, but critism is the best mechanism for change and when there are people in the world who can blow me up along with 1000 of my countrymen at any moment, you best believe I am gonna make Muhammed jokes. I would rather die than give up my right to express myself I agree. It's just a theory has to be the the most ignorant argument I have ever heard. Guess what Newton's theory of gravitation is just a theory but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in gravity. Newton's theory of gravity is also wrong.. Don't believe in it! Completely serious General Relativity?
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On December 15 2010 04:30 Jswizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:26 Krikkitone wrote:On December 15 2010 04:20 Jswizzy wrote:On December 15 2010 03:02 emythrel wrote:On December 13 2010 20:58 amarai wrote:On December 13 2010 20:44 Nizaris wrote:On December 13 2010 19:44 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:41 Blobskillz wrote:On December 13 2010 19:32 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:28 BeWat3r wrote:
[quote]
I did :-) Ofc the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels.
The problem is, the people who commit those sucizide attacks got blinded by some false prophets. They tell them what to do not the Quran. Pretty simple because most of those people can not read, so they do follow everything they have been told Where are you getting the information your stating here? and where exactly have you read the Qur'an? What exactly do you mean by "the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels."? What old parts are you talking about? do they release a new version of the Qur'an and the Bible every couple of months? are you stupid?. I think he's talking about religious leaders that dont stick to the Qur'an itself but to some newer hadith, that dont need to have any connection to the qur'an even though they try to make that connection. Well that's false information and it is irrelevant and people who believe false information are stupid. So you are basically saying all religious ppl are stupid since the Coran and the Bible is false information ? Unless you really believe he walked on water i guess.... Who are you to say it is false information? Has it been proven to be false? Thats like saying all the people who believe in evolution or the big bang theory are stupid because they are just theories and are not proven. What he is trying to say is if the Quran says one thing and and someone says something different and is trying to associate it with the religion when it actually isn't than it is false and irrelevant. I hate arguments like this one, just because the Big bang is a theory doesn't put it in the same group as religion. The big bang is based on very solid science, with lots of observation to back it up. Evolution isn't a theory anymore.... it is fact. Science doesn't remove the word theory from anything ,even once its proven because there might be an even more elegant proof beyond it. Pythagoras theory has been proven thousands of times over thousands of years, but its still known as "The Pythagoras Theorum". Religion has no proof other than "because I said so" and will never have more proof until god stands before us and shows us his/her power. Religion is not logical, at least not in the modern age when we can explain most of the stuff the bible and other religious texts were written to explain. If you want to believe in a religion, thats fine, more power to you, but you have no right to try to impose your values on anyone else. Muslims have good reasons to not portray Muhammed, I understand them and respect them, however I am not Muslim and I do not agree with their reasons therefore if i want to do some satire using Muhammed I will and I should be able to do it without fear of death. In Muslim countries you will see horrible pictures of the current President being buttfucked or shot or whatever being held up at anti US rallies, this is their version of satire and we don't then say "you can't draw stuff like that of a president... now we kill you" its ridiculous. Most Muslims who grow up in western countries understand that satire is a heathy by-product of free speech, I know a Muslim comedian who does alot of material about Jesus being gay and the crowd of both Muslim and non-muslim people laugh it up.... even the christians. Should we mock people's beliefs? Perhaps we shouldn't, but critism is the best mechanism for change and when there are people in the world who can blow me up along with 1000 of my countrymen at any moment, you best believe I am gonna make Muhammed jokes. I would rather die than give up my right to express myself I agree. It's just a theory has to be the the most ignorant argument I have ever heard. Guess what Newton's theory of gravitation is just a theory but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in gravity. Newton's theory of gravity is also wrong.. Don't believe in it! Completely serious General Relativity?
Probably false too (quantum problems)
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Every time you argue religion against science religion wins. Not because they have better arguments but rather because you give religion a position in the discussion it should not have. If you compare religion with science you are basically saying they are equally possible which is obviously not true.
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On December 13 2010 18:23 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
No. Bending to the will of a bunch of bloodthirsty savages only encourages them and shows them that their violent methods and oppression is effective.
Oowww, statements like these are obviously the result of an enlightened culture.
"Violent methods" and "oppression". This rings a bell. It's probably the irony bell.
Obviously the only somewhat respectable form of censorship is self-censorship. Even then it's only truly admirable in very few cases. One good example is not speaking one's mind to a spouse on sensitive subjects - totally acceptable. Another might be not trying to evoke a violent response. I've heard that empathy can be a good thing in human-to-human communication.
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On December 15 2010 04:34 wadadde wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 18:23 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
No. Bending to the will of a bunch of bloodthirsty savages only encourages them and shows them that their violent methods and oppression is effective. Oowww, statements like these are obviously the result of an enlightened culture. "Violent methods" and "oppression". This rings a bell. It's probably the irony bell. Obviously the only somewhat respectable form of censorship is self-censorship. Even then it's only truly admirable in very few cases. One good example is not speaking one's mind to a spouse on sensitive subjects - totally acceptable. Another might be not trying to evoke a violent response. I've heard that empathy can be a good thing in human-to-human communication.
How silly. Drawing religious figures is trying to evoke a violent response? They may be trying to evoke a response alright, but to assume it's somehow the instigator's fault that the response is violent is outright ridiculous.
If I draw a silly picture of Elvis, I might get some hate mail but I'm not expecting to be beheaded by any Elvis fanclubs. The fact that the response is expected to be violent is more telling of Muslims than anything else.
I've also heard that not being violent extremists with no tolerance for others is a very good thing in human-to-human communication. The onus is on radical Muslims to stop acting like it's the 16th century, not on cartoonists to expect that ink pictures will lead to death threats.
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"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
User was warned for this post
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What we need is for everyone in the world to draw a picture, that way they can't really target everyone as there's more of us 
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On December 15 2010 03:02 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 20:58 amarai wrote:On December 13 2010 20:44 Nizaris wrote:On December 13 2010 19:44 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:41 Blobskillz wrote:On December 13 2010 19:32 PaPoolee wrote:On December 13 2010 19:28 BeWat3r wrote:On December 13 2010 19:15 daz wrote:On December 13 2010 18:57 BeWat3r wrote:
I think T.O.P has some good points on his side.
One of the biggest problems with those extremists is, they hide themself under the sheet of the muslims. They may say, they belong to this certain group, but the things they do, do not have anything in common with the Qran.
I think you need to read the Quran I did :-) Ofc the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels. The problem is, the people who commit those sucizide attacks got blinded by some false prophets. They tell them what to do not the Quran. Pretty simple because most of those people can not read, so they do follow everything they have been told Where are you getting the information your stating here? and where exactly have you read the Qur'an? What exactly do you mean by "the old parts are as retared as the old parts of the bible but there is nothing like : Hey lets kill all infidels."? What old parts are you talking about? do they release a new version of the Qur'an and the Bible every couple of months? are you stupid?. I think he's talking about religious leaders that dont stick to the Qur'an itself but to some newer hadith, that dont need to have any connection to the qur'an even though they try to make that connection. Well that's false information and it is irrelevant and people who believe false information are stupid. So you are basically saying all religious ppl are stupid since the Coran and the Bible is false information ? Unless you really believe he walked on water i guess.... Who are you to say it is false information? Has it been proven to be false? Thats like saying all the people who believe in evolution or the big bang theory are stupid because they are just theories and are not proven. What he is trying to say is if the Quran says one thing and and someone says something different and is trying to associate it with the religion when it actually isn't than it is false and irrelevant. I hate arguments like this one, just because the Big bang is a theory doesn't put it in the same group as religion. The big bang is based on very solid science, with lots of observation to back it up. Evolution isn't a theory anymore.... it is fact. Science doesn't remove the word theory from anything ,even once its proven because there might be an even more elegant proof beyond it. Pythagoras theory has been proven thousands of times over thousands of years, but its still known as "The Pythagoras Theorum". Religion has no proof other than "because I said so" and will never have more proof until god stands before us and shows us his/her power. Religion is not logical, at least not in the modern age when we can explain most of the stuff the bible and other religious texts were written to explain. If you want to believe in a religion, thats fine, more power to you, but you have no right to try to impose your values on anyone else. Muslims have good reasons to not portray Muhammed, I understand them and respect them, however I am not Muslim and I do not agree with their reasons therefore if i want to do some satire using Muhammed I will and I should be able to do it without fear of death. In Muslim countries you will see horrible pictures of the current President being buttfucked or shot or whatever being held up at anti US rallies, this is their version of satire and we don't then say "you can't draw stuff like that of a president... now we kill you" its ridiculous. Most Muslims who grow up in western countries understand that satire is a heathy by-product of free speech, I know a Muslim comedian who does alot of material about Jesus being gay and the crowd of both Muslim and non-muslim people laugh it up.... even the christians. Should we mock people's beliefs? Perhaps we shouldn't, but critism is the best mechanism for change and when there are people in the world who can blow me up along with 1000 of my countrymen at any moment, you best believe I am gonna make Muhammed jokes. I would rather die than give up my right to express myself
Why would you hate arguments such as that one? Your absolutely correct that just because it is a theory it can not be put in the same group, but the other way around. Religion, at least Islam can explain the Big Bang Theory where as not believing can not.
The one thing that peeves me a lot is people's misconceptions and misunderstanding of the religion that they choose blindly to hate. I for one believe in the big bang theory but without the "whole thing happened by chance" argument. Where we differ is that I believe that God created the universe and the way he did it is what people refer to as the Big Bang. After all God describes the Big bang theory 1400 years ago,
Then He turned to the heavens when it was smoke...
[ Quran 41:11]
Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same 'smoke' we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous 'smoke', they formed and separated from each other. God said in the Quran:
Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?.. [Quran 21:30]
Professor Alfred Kroner is one of the world's well-known geologists. He is a Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Mainz, Germany. He said, "Thinking where Muhammad came from .. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advance technological methods that this is the case." (From 'This is the Truth' [video]). Also he said, "Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin."
You guys have to understand that Islam and Science go hand in hand. Islam encompasses science and everything else. I don't know where you guys get the idea that Islam and science are at war or something, maybe because of the Church-Science conflicts? Who knows.
When I wrote my post it was to challenge the previous poster saying that the Quran is false information because it is not proven. By that logic people who believe in those theories (and they are just theories) would be in the same boat, which is not the case.
I strongly disagree with your statement that Religion does not have any proof other than "because I said so" , and i would glady show you if that is something you would have the time for. I also think Islam is much more logical than your way of thinking because in the end you can not find an end point to explain where it all came from. I use this example a lot when I have debates like these in real life because it is easy to follow and logically makes sense.
If i were to come up to you one day with a machine you nor anyone else has seen before, you had no idea what it was, and i asked you who can explain it mechanisms to me? What would you say? My guess is you would say the manufacturer, or the producer, the creator, the inventor or what have you. Now logically this makes sense right? You would not believe me if i said it just came into being, it just happened, even if i told you it took itself 10 billion years to make, you would simply think im crazy. Now think about the scale of things, this is just a machine, the universe is amazing everything works so perfectly. The earth, our bodies, out minds (I'm getting chills talking about this, haha), How can it all happen by itself? It's much easier and logical to think that God is behind it isn't it?
I should definitely start a blog about all the misconceptions and misunderstandings that people have about Islam because most of you have only seen one side of the story. It really upsets me that so many people could hate on a religion that has done so much good for this world. As for the whole freedom of speech debate, governments and people take people's freedoms everyday and it is "alright" if it is in your interest but it's hell if it isn't. Too hypocritical for me imo. I'm all for freedom of speech when it is done for the good of humanity but how is drawing a holy prophet to 1.6 billion people with a bomb anything other than just an insult. I mean write a million books on how much you disagree with Islam and how it is the devil but at least there would be an argument and it is not done just to hurt, and humiliate people. Wow that was long!
Anyway, OP I apologize that my post did not have to do with the subject on hand, please forgive me I got a little carried away.
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A problem with those making cartoons or jokes about Islam is they are not doing it in a joking way, there's obviously a difference between a good natured joke and one that's made because they hate Muslims and want to annoy them fully knowing how easy provocation is. How Islam is portrayed doesn't do it any favours with the 'kill all non believers' propaganda and stories of death threats, it's just asking to be made fun of. It doesn't seem Muslims can accept any form of cartoon/joke about their religion which is a shame because this can never be outlawed otherwise we are going back in time.
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On December 15 2010 06:20 amarai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Why would you hate arguments such as that one? Your absolutely correct that just because it is a theory it can not be put in the same group, but the other way around. Religion, at least Islam can explain the Big Bang Theory where as not believing can not.
The one thing that peeves me a lot is people's misconceptions and misunderstanding of the religion that they choose blindly to hate. I for one believe in the big bang theory but without the "whole thing happened by chance" argument. Where we differ is that I believe that God created the universe and the way he did it is what people refer to as the Big Bang. After all God describes the Big bang theory 1400 years ago,
Then He turned to the heavens when it was smoke...
[ Quran 41:11]
Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same 'smoke' we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous 'smoke', they formed and separated from each other. God said in the Quran:
Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?.. [Quran 21:30]
Professor Alfred Kroner is one of the world's well-known geologists. He is a Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Mainz, Germany. He said, "Thinking where Muhammad came from .. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advance technological methods that this is the case." (From 'This is the Truth' [video]). Also he said, "Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin."
You guys have to understand that Islam and Science go hand in hand. Islam encompasses science and everything else. I don't know where you guys get the idea that Islam and science are at war or something, maybe because of the Church-Science conflicts? Who knows.
When I wrote my post it was to challenge the previous poster saying that the Quran is false information because it is not proven. By that logic people who believe in those theories (and they are just theories) would be in the same boat, which is not the case.
I strongly disagree with your statement that Religion does not have any proof other than "because I said so" , and i would glady show you if that is something you would have the time for. I also think Islam is much more logical than your way of thinking because in the end you can not find an end point to explain where it all came from. I use this example a lot when I have debates like these in real life because it is easy to follow and logically makes sense.
If i were to come up to you one day with a machine you nor anyone else has seen before, you had no idea what it was, and i asked you who can explain it mechanisms to me? What would you say? My guess is you would say the manufacturer, or the producer, the creator, the inventor or what have you. Now logically this makes sense right? You would not believe me if i said it just came into being, it just happened, even if i told you it took itself 10 billion years to make, you would simply think im crazy. Now think about the scale of things, this is just a machine, the universe is amazing everything works so perfectly. The earth, our bodies, out minds (I'm getting chills talking about this, haha), How can it all happen by itself? It's much easier and logical to think that God is behind it isn't it?
I should definitely start a blog about all the misconceptions and misunderstandings that people have about Islam because most of you have only seen one side of the story. It really upsets me that so many people could hate on a religion that has done so much good for this world. As for the whole freedom of speech debate, governments and people take people's freedoms everyday and it is "alright" if it is in your interest but it's hell if it isn't. Too hypocritical for me imo. I'm all for freedom of speech when it is done for the good of humanity but how is drawing a holy prophet to 1.6 billion people with a bomb anything other than just an insult. I mean write a million books on how much you disagree with Islam and how it is the devil but at least there would be an argument and it is not done just to hurt, and humiliate people. Wow that was long!
Anyway, OP I apologize that my post did not have to do with the subject on hand, please forgive me I got a little carried away.
Science is about making a conclusion to fit the evidence.
Religion is about making evidence fit a conclusion.
If in 15 years we get new evidence that shows that the universe was created by the death of a white dwarf or something, I'm sure there's some texts in the Qur'an that can somehow be interpreted to have said that too, and all of this stuff about the Big Bang was just a misinterpretation. That doesn't make the text a predictor, and it doesn't make your religion somehow correct or in parallel with scientific thinking.
Given enough flowery language and selective interpretation, I can make any religion logically sound and fitting with the scientific evidence we have at hand. Maybe given all the words along the lines of "sun", "explosion", "heat", "energy", and "lightning" in Mesoamerican manuscripts, it really turns out Huitzilopochtli and Quetzalcoatl created the universe through the Big Bang. No one believes that, but by religious logic it's every bit as sound an interpretation as any other god doing it.
I don't care what doctrine you subscribe to to give yourself spiritual comfort and provide a sound explanation of the universe for your intellectual curiosity. But don't insult science by pretending religion is science.
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On December 15 2010 04:10 Robstickle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 03:02 emythrel wrote:Pythagoras theory has been proven thousands of times over thousands of years, but its still known as "The Pythagoras Theorum". In mathematics something is only a theorem or lemma if it has been proven. If The Pythagoras Theorem was unproven it would be a hypothesis. In science it seems to work differently, after all String Theory is by no means proven but it's still apparently called a theory.
Theorem: Given assumptions, a theorem is a true fact. Ie, if you have a right angle triangle in a 2-d plane, you get pythagoras.
Theory: A predictive set of statements that matches all observed data in a particular field and scope.
Religion: A set of statements that may or may not conflict with observed data, that are held to be true.
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Short answer:
No.
Long answer:
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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EPT
