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On December 13 2010 18:58 PaPoolee wrote:
You guys are retarded, I don't get it, you are refusing to do something about people who insult other peoples religions? I mean would you be okay with it if you were a Christian and somebody made stupid drawings of Jesus or something and spread it around the world? By saying "Many countries have a policy of not negotiating with terrorists" do you mean that all the Islam religion and Muslims are terrorists just because of the doing of some retarded suicide bomber who thought he is something but really he isn't and he deserved to die? if you are then you've got serious problems, every single country and religion has some fucked up people! you cant judge everyone by the doing of one person. I'm not going to argue about this here because I'm easily out numbered... but seriously! grow the fuck up!.
User was temp banned for this post.
User was temp banned for this post.
People DO make stupid drawings of Jesus and mock him. People DO mock the Christian faith.
But our pastors don't tell us that we should get revenge on these people or that these people need to die. Of course I get mildly offended by pictures like: ![[image loading]](http://www.freethunk.net/articles/images_articles/southpark_jesus.gif)
But I realize that it is intended to be funny, and I'm able to laugh at it.
People need to just let things roll off their back more.
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Religion's need to be open to scrutiny and ridicule, if history has shown mankind anything it is that religion attracts extremist and the delusional individuals who will bend and warp an otherwise well intended idea or philosophy into their own personal crusade against anyone who challenges them or their world view. I am not naive enough to generalize all Arabs or Muslims, they all have their own own beliefs and no one really has the same exact religious beliefs or view of god/religion, religion and spirituality are personal matters. But I do think that Islam needs to be checked just like any other religion. There are plenty of modernized and progressive Muslims nations out there but there are still tons of fundamentalist fascist Islamic states, who abuse women and commit horrible acts against anyone who steps out of line in the name of Islam(ex: women in Sudan lashed for wearing trousers + Show Spoiler +. Should I not challenge Islam because I might offend someone who is a moderate? Well, my answer is I am not trying to offend them but I cannot pull my punches against radicals and fascist just because I may offend someone. Should I not criticize the Pope for protecting pedophiles and child molesters because the majority of Catholics are peaceful and respectful, well no that would be turning a blind eye to evil.
Also America has a long history of being a targeted for attack by radical Muslims, 300 years ago we had to deal with Barbary pirates, just look at how the Koran was used as a justification by an Islamic state to pillage and pirate Western states.
In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy in London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:
It was written in their Qu'ran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every Muslim who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once. [13] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
TLR; People use religion as an excuse to commit evil so it should be open to attack and criticism, sorry if your feelings get hurt.
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On December 16 2010 06:01 Derminator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 05:43 RaptorX wrote:On December 13 2010 19:33 cz wrote:On December 13 2010 19:30 Sanjuro wrote:
if you know something will enrage someone, and then you do that something, why are you suprised or try to defend yourself with freedom of speech crap.
Its just a matter of action getting a reaction. if you cant deal with the reaction then dont do it.
Because you are protected by the right to free speech. It's a legitimate defense. You don't get the right to hurt someone because you don't like what they said: the person is still legally protected. well, technically they are also protected by free of speech. Their way of "communicating" their thoughts is a little bit radical but hey, they are speaking their minds dont you think? they want you to stop fucking with their god. On the one hand i LOVE freedom of speech but the same as with copyright infringement stuff it is being abused. Some people are using freedom of speech as a shield for their stupid actions and that by itself gives the extremist all the right to fuck them up... do I agree with their methods? Hell no... should you complain about their behavior? NO you have no right to complain when you are at fault as they have no right to complain because we are free to do whatever we want.If you want to say something radical as "all islamists are animals" (as the picture depicts) then you should also be prepared to be treated like an animal yourself, and do you know what humans do with animals? they torture them and kill them for no reason. I will simply enjoy this show until the end, one day i might as well get blown up by some retarded fanatic but i will die laughing that i did not participate in your silly "who is right?" game. So you really just said that drawing a cartoon that pisses someone off gives that person the right to kill you. Unbelievable...
No. I stated that if you drawn the cartoons you cannot complain about the reactions that might be aroused. I do not see the point of killing 20 inocent people that had nothing to do with the drawing just to make a point (a bomb for example) I do think that if they decide to kill the guy who created the drawings then they can go ahead and behead him or torture him or whatever they want for 2 main reasons:
1) he knew that they would do that and he still draw the cartoons (so he is a dumb ass or an instigator, either way we are better without him)
2) he puts his "freedom of speech" (which he is clearly abusing) above everybody else's safety (so again he is not to be trusted, we are better off without him)
I do not agree with the methods but you must be realistic, those people dont think like you and me (they probably dont think at all, and im not referring to islamic people but to the fanatics in any religion) so reasoning with them doesnt seem to be an option.
So, what do an intelligent people do in that case? avoid those people like we avoid lions and bears.
I am not saying "dont make fun at their gods" since i make fun of all religion myself, what im saying is "DONT BE A FUCKING MORON AND POKE THE THING THAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND ME you fucking idiot"... mock them, make fun at them, do whatever you want but dont taunt them since you will get what you deserve (like what gawk got from 4chan because of being too arrogants).
If you you make some degrading stuff about their religion/god and release it to the media to make your whole country to mock them too then you are fucking asking for it. I feel nothing if you get killed.
Do you get the point?
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On December 16 2010 06:36 RaptorX wrote:
No. I stated that if you drawn the cartoons you cannot complain about the reactions that might be aroused. I do not see the point of killing 20 inocent people that had nothing to do with the drawing just to make a point (a bomb for example) I do think that if they decide to kill the guy who created the drawings then they can go ahead and behead him or torture him or whatever they want for 2 main reasons:
1) he knew that they would do that and he still draw the cartoons (so he is a dumb ass or an instigator, either way we are better without him)
2) he puts his "freedom of speech" (which he is clearly abusing) above everybody else's safety (so again he is not to be trusted, we are better off without him)
I do not agree with the methods but you must be realistic, those people dont think like you and me (they probably dont think at all, and im not referring to islamic people but to the fanatics in any religion) so reasoning with them doesnt seem to be an option.
So, what do an intelligent people do in that case? avoid those people like we avoid lions and bears.
I am not saying "dont make fun at their gods" since i make fun of all religion myself, what im saying is "DONT BE A FUCKING MORON AND POKE THE THING THAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND ME you fucking idiot"... mock them, make fun at them, do whatever you want but dont taunt them since you will get what you deserve (like what gawk got from 4chan because of being too arrogants).
If you you make some degrading stuff about their religion/god and release it to the media to make your whole country to mock them too then you are fucking asking for it. I feel nothing if you get killed.
Do you get the point?
Wow, this is WRONG on so many levels that I don not even know where to begin. What you say here is vry dagerous thinking because, basically, it means that the "intelligent" people must bow to the will of the fanatics. Following that argument, it the right thing to do to stand aside while Nazis deported the Jews. Not cool, imo.
Also, what you do not seems to take into account is that in our society there are laws that actually prohibit people from killing you for religiouos reasons, i.e. while some delusional iditios may think that fathwas are OK (btw, they are not a part of the quran but arose later, around the 12th or 13th century and were politically motivated - quran still says its not cool to kill people).
That said, you propose that if you insult a faith which is totally in accorandance with our jurisdiction you have no right to complain when someone attacks you, thereby violating our laws.
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Personal experience with censorship:
+ Show Spoiler +
When I was in high school I was suspended for 3 days for saying out loud "Your father is a no good nigger lover"
I was in English class, I had been called on to read out loud a section of to kill a mocking bird. (This is a line in the book said by a particularly racist character).
The class had previously decided (via some pseudo-democratic discussion process) despite my and a few other student's objections to omit use of that word because it was offensive.
When I was sent to the administration and asked why I did it, I attempted to defend myself basically as follows:
I read it any way with the deliberate intention of offending people. Not out of spite though, I wanted them to feel offended because that's what the author wanted you to feel when you read it, this book is about prejudice, if the instructor is so concerned about offending someone, then maybe she should consider teaching a different book, rather than censoring this one and really denying the full impact of the anti-prejudice message that the author is trying to convey. (or maybe don't call on some one who vehemently objected to the initial censoring to read a section out loud that contained the word, I mean come on, that was kind of a dick move).
Although pretty proud of sticking by my principles, and feeling pretty cocky about my civil disobedience, the defense I mounted was completely ineffective.
The most frustrating part of the experience for me was not the punishment, but that after I realized of the some 30 kids in the class probably 5 opposed the censorship, 15 probably didn't give two shits, and 10 felt completely justified censoring someone else's art form. The reason that this was so frustrating was because of the realization that such a large number of people were either apathetic to censorship, or in favor of it, and how it might be inevitable for censorship to become increasingly pervasive.
It is the domain of the artist to decide what is critical to their expression, not the audience.
If you dislike the expression, do not subscribe to it (literally or figuratively) to whoever/whatever is depicting it. The only thing worse than terrorists trying to impose their civics on other people is when people cave in under that pressure and encourage them to do it more. Frankly that the topic even warrants a discussion has me deeply offended, but not quite so much that I won't chime in. 
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On December 16 2010 06:36 Jswizzy wrote:Religion's need to be open to scrutiny and ridicule, if history has shown mankind anything it is that religion attracts extremist and the delusional individuals who will bend and warp an otherwise well intended idea or philosophy into their own personal crusade against anyone who challenges them or their world view. I am not naive enough to generalize all Arabs or Muslims, they all have their own own beliefs and no one really has the same exact religious beliefs or view of god/religion, religion and spirituality are personal matters. But I do think that Islam needs to be checked just like any other religion. There are plenty of modernized and progressive Muslims nations out there but there are still tons of fundamentalist fascist Islamic states, who abuse women and commit horrible acts against anyone who steps out of line in the name of Islam(ex: women in Sudan lashed for wearing trousers + Show Spoiler +. Should I not challenge Islam because I might offend someone who is a moderate? Well, my answer is I am not trying to offend them but I cannot pull my punches against radicals and fascist just because I may offend someone. Should I not criticize the Pope for protecting pedophiles and child molesters because the majority of Catholics are peaceful and respectful, well no that would be turning a blind eye to evil. Also America has a long history of being a targeted for attack by radical Muslims, 300 years ago we had to deal with Barbary pirates, just look at how the Koran was used as a justification by an Islamic state to pillage and pirate Western states. Show nested quote +In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy in London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:
It was written in their Qu'ran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every Muslim who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once. [13] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_WarTLR; People use religion as an excuse to commit evil so it should be open to attack and criticism, sorry if your feelings get hurt.
America has a long history of shit doings also, every nation in this whole planet has done crappy things if you look at it with today's standard. Try looking at something with an open mind...
Barbary pirates.... hmmmmmm they are pirates!!!! what the hell do expect from a pirate?
well my point is that you said People that uses religion as an excuse to commit evil should be open to attack and criticism, then criticize those guys, why go for the Prophet Muhammad?
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When in Rome, do as Romans do.
The immigrants should not give up their faith, but do not try to impose it on other people. At least thank the nation for letting them come in the first place.
But people seem to get the idea that ALL Muslims seem to act like that. I know from my personal experience with Muslims in the US is that they are not a bunch of over zealous crusaders and oddly enough, the biggest Muslim nation in the world is Indonesia and we do not hear do not religious battles from there (Use to however)
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On December 16 2010 06:46 Electric.Jesus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 06:36 RaptorX wrote:
No. I stated that if you drawn the cartoons you cannot complain about the reactions that might be aroused. I do not see the point of killing 20 inocent people that had nothing to do with the drawing just to make a point (a bomb for example) I do think that if they decide to kill the guy who created the drawings then they can go ahead and behead him or torture him or whatever they want for 2 main reasons:
1) he knew that they would do that and he still draw the cartoons (so he is a dumb ass or an instigator, either way we are better without him)
2) he puts his "freedom of speech" (which he is clearly abusing) above everybody else's safety (so again he is not to be trusted, we are better off without him)
I do not agree with the methods but you must be realistic, those people dont think like you and me (they probably dont think at all, and im not referring to islamic people but to the fanatics in any religion) so reasoning with them doesnt seem to be an option.
So, what do an intelligent people do in that case? avoid those people like we avoid lions and bears.
I am not saying "dont make fun at their gods" since i make fun of all religion myself, what im saying is "DONT BE A FUCKING MORON AND POKE THE THING THAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND ME you fucking idiot"... mock them, make fun at them, do whatever you want but dont taunt them since you will get what you deserve (like what gawk got from 4chan because of being too arrogants).
If you you make some degrading stuff about their religion/god and release it to the media to make your whole country to mock them too then you are fucking asking for it. I feel nothing if you get killed.
Do you get the point?
Wow, this is WRONG on so many levels that I don not even know where to begin. What you say here is vry dagerous thinking because, basically, it means that the "intelligent" people must bow to the will of the fanatics. Following that argument, it the right thing to do to stand aside while Nazis deported the Jews. Not cool, imo. Also, what you do not seems to take into account is that in our society there are laws that actually prohibit people from killing you for religiouos reasons, i.e. while some delusional iditios may think that fathwas are OK (btw, they are not a part of the quran but arose later, around the 12th or 13th century and were politically motivated - quran still says its not cool to kill people). That said, you propose that if you insult a faith which is totally in accorandance with our jurisdiction you have no right to complain when someone attacks you, thereby violating our laws.
No.
I do not say that we have to do what they say.
Ok, I want you to go and grab a knife make a small cut in one of your fingers and then jump in to a water that is infested with sharks.
why not?
I mean are you going to bow to their "demands"? they "say" that if they smell blood they will eat you..
Well, I feel the same when im dealing with fanatics. They for me are like animals in the sense that you cant reason with them,you cant talk to them and they believe they are right and you are wrong... SOOO...
Being the intelligent being that I am I will refrain myself from doing stuff that not only is dangerous for me but for other people as well. Freedom of speech doesnt mean "say whatever is on your mind without thinking about the consequences" . You must weight the consequences and ask yourself:
"does depicting a dog with the head of an islamist and basically saying that they are animals bring anything good? no? is it worth it to make the joke EVEN AT EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLES LIVES? no? then why do i have to do it?"
You are free to say whatever you want but that doesnt mean that you have to, specially when what you say will bring nothing good.
Again, in my eyes if you are an instigator or a dumb fuck then you are better off out of our world, it will save us a lot of troubles.
On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU.
Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly.
You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward.
--Edit:
Let me add a little radical thought of mine:
If you cant be responsible in the use of "freedom of speech" you probably should not have it at all.
well, food for thought.
--Edit2
LOL i sound like those movies... "with great power comes great responsibility"... so cheesy
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On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 06:46 Electric.Jesus wrote:On December 16 2010 06:36 RaptorX wrote:
No. I stated that if you drawn the cartoons you cannot complain about the reactions that might be aroused. I do not see the point of killing 20 inocent people that had nothing to do with the drawing just to make a point (a bomb for example) I do think that if they decide to kill the guy who created the drawings then they can go ahead and behead him or torture him or whatever they want for 2 main reasons:
1) he knew that they would do that and he still draw the cartoons (so he is a dumb ass or an instigator, either way we are better without him)
2) he puts his "freedom of speech" (which he is clearly abusing) above everybody else's safety (so again he is not to be trusted, we are better off without him)
I do not agree with the methods but you must be realistic, those people dont think like you and me (they probably dont think at all, and im not referring to islamic people but to the fanatics in any religion) so reasoning with them doesnt seem to be an option.
So, what do an intelligent people do in that case? avoid those people like we avoid lions and bears.
I am not saying "dont make fun at their gods" since i make fun of all religion myself, what im saying is "DONT BE A FUCKING MORON AND POKE THE THING THAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND ME you fucking idiot"... mock them, make fun at them, do whatever you want but dont taunt them since you will get what you deserve (like what gawk got from 4chan because of being too arrogants).
If you you make some degrading stuff about their religion/god and release it to the media to make your whole country to mock them too then you are fucking asking for it. I feel nothing if you get killed.
Do you get the point?
Wow, this is WRONG on so many levels that I don not even know where to begin. What you say here is vry dagerous thinking because, basically, it means that the "intelligent" people must bow to the will of the fanatics. Following that argument, it the right thing to do to stand aside while Nazis deported the Jews. Not cool, imo. Also, what you do not seems to take into account is that in our society there are laws that actually prohibit people from killing you for religiouos reasons, i.e. while some delusional iditios may think that fathwas are OK (btw, they are not a part of the quran but arose later, around the 12th or 13th century and were politically motivated - quran still says its not cool to kill people). That said, you propose that if you insult a faith which is totally in accorandance with our jurisdiction you have no right to complain when someone attacks you, thereby violating our laws. No. I do not say that we have to do what they say. Ok, I want you to go and grab a knife make a small cut in one of your fingers and then jump in to a water that is infested with sharks. why not? I mean are you going to bow to their "demands"? they "say" that if they smell blood they will eat you.. Well, I feel the same when im dealing with fanatics. They for me are like animals in the sense that you cant reason with them,you cant talk to them and they believe they are right and you are wrong... SOOO... Being the intelligent being that I am I will refrain myself from doing stuff that not only is dangerous for me but for other people as well. Freedom of speech doesnt mean "say whatever is on your mind without thinking about the consequences" . You must weight the consequences and ask yourself: Show nested quote +"does depicting a dog with the head of an islamist and basically saying that they are animals bring anything good? no? is it worth it to make the joke EVEN AT EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLES LIVES? no? then why do i have to do it?"
You are free to say whatever you want but that doesnt mean that you have to, specially when what you say will bring nothing good. Again, in my eyes if you are an instigator or a dumb fuck then you are better off out of our world, it will save us a lot of troubles. On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU. Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly. You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward.
I'm really pleased the world has individuals as enlightened as you, whom are willing to classify extremists (of any sort) as animals, and will gladly limit the freedoms of rational thinking people world-wide in order to placate these so called "animals." I'm also really glad that you see something wrong with protecting peaceful, open-minded individuals attempting to exercise their unalienable rights.
I mean, I guess despite the fact that homo sapiens have a limbic system and neo-cortex, we really can't fault them for acting the same way as an animal that kills at the slightest stimuli, even though my metaphor is terribly incomplete considering the animal is killing for sustenance.
You need to ask yourself how your message sounds before you post it, because you come across as too unintelligent to express your opinions without embarrassing yourself. That said, since the population of TL aren't fascists, we won't fault you for expressing such a poorly hashed-out opinion, even though your fault other people for their's.
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On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 06:46 Electric.Jesus wrote:On December 16 2010 06:36 RaptorX wrote:
No. I stated that if you drawn the cartoons you cannot complain about the reactions that might be aroused. I do not see the point of killing 20 inocent people that had nothing to do with the drawing just to make a point (a bomb for example) I do think that if they decide to kill the guy who created the drawings then they can go ahead and behead him or torture him or whatever they want for 2 main reasons:
1) he knew that they would do that and he still draw the cartoons (so he is a dumb ass or an instigator, either way we are better without him)
2) he puts his "freedom of speech" (which he is clearly abusing) above everybody else's safety (so again he is not to be trusted, we are better off without him)
I do not agree with the methods but you must be realistic, those people dont think like you and me (they probably dont think at all, and im not referring to islamic people but to the fanatics in any religion) so reasoning with them doesnt seem to be an option.
So, what do an intelligent people do in that case? avoid those people like we avoid lions and bears.
I am not saying "dont make fun at their gods" since i make fun of all religion myself, what im saying is "DONT BE A FUCKING MORON AND POKE THE THING THAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND ME you fucking idiot"... mock them, make fun at them, do whatever you want but dont taunt them since you will get what you deserve (like what gawk got from 4chan because of being too arrogants).
If you you make some degrading stuff about their religion/god and release it to the media to make your whole country to mock them too then you are fucking asking for it. I feel nothing if you get killed.
Do you get the point?
Wow, this is WRONG on so many levels that I don not even know where to begin. What you say here is vry dagerous thinking because, basically, it means that the "intelligent" people must bow to the will of the fanatics. Following that argument, it the right thing to do to stand aside while Nazis deported the Jews. Not cool, imo. Also, what you do not seems to take into account is that in our society there are laws that actually prohibit people from killing you for religiouos reasons, i.e. while some delusional iditios may think that fathwas are OK (btw, they are not a part of the quran but arose later, around the 12th or 13th century and were politically motivated - quran still says its not cool to kill people). That said, you propose that if you insult a faith which is totally in accorandance with our jurisdiction you have no right to complain when someone attacks you, thereby violating our laws. No. I do not say that we have to do what they say. Ok, I want you to go and grab a knife make a small cut in one of your fingers and then jump in to a water that is infested with sharks. why not? I mean are you going to bow to their "demands"? they "say" that if they smell blood they will eat you.. Well, I feel the same when im dealing with fanatics. They for me are like animals in the sense that you cant reason with them,you cant talk to them and they believe they are right and you are wrong... SOOO... Being the intelligent being that I am I will refrain myself from doing stuff that not only is dangerous for me but for other people as well. Freedom of speech doesnt mean "say whatever is on your mind without thinking about the consequences" . You must weight the consequences and ask yourself: Show nested quote +"does depicting a dog with the head of an islamist and basically saying that they are animals bring anything good? no? is it worth it to make the joke EVEN AT EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLES LIVES? no? then why do i have to do it?"
You are free to say whatever you want but that doesnt mean that you have to, specially when what you say will bring nothing good. Again, in my eyes if you are an instigator or a dumb fuck then you are better off out of our world, it will save us a lot of troubles. On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU. Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly. You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward. --Edit: Let me add a little radical thought of mine: If you cant be responsible in the use of "freedom of speech" you probably should not have it at all. well, food for thought. --Edit2 LOL i sound like those movies... "with great power comes great responsibility"... so cheesy
Your argument shows bizarre cowardice. Obey ignorant violent people rather than take the small risk that they might be able to hurt you.
Punch yourself in the nose or I will come and kill you. According to you, you should punch yourself in the nose. As long as I make a threat more dangerous than the act I want you to do, I have total power over you.
Even on a pragmatic level you make no sense, given how small the risk of retribution is, assuming you are not in a Country that is mostly muslim in population.
Yeah and obviously we CAN expect them to abide by our laws in our country, where they have to come if they wish to retaliate against us for exercising free speech.
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On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:
On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU.
Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly.
I think that murder is illegal in most countries, so your point is invalid. Besides, as I already mentioned, it is condiered sin in the quran as well.
On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:
You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward.
Well, that goes both ways, does it not. Lets say that some people feel offended by certain cartoons that are perfectly normal in Western society. But why does no one take into account that might feel offended by the fact that some nutjubs threaten one of the most important cultural achievemtns lacking any rational justification. (I kill you because you drew my imaginary friend, sure thing). But no one takes that into account. Double standards?
On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:
--Edit:
Let me add a little radical thought of mine:
If you cant be responsible in the use of "freedom of speech" you probably should not have it at all.
well, food for thought.
That shows that you no not understand the concept of freedom of speech. Basically what you say is that you have two choices.
a) Use freedom of speech and suffer the consequences.
b) Consor yourself and remain unharmed.
Basically that means that certain thoughts are not going to be uttered, meaning that freedom of speech does no longer apply.
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Don't forget that people who don't believe in a certain religion,
have the same rights as the people that do believe in their religions.
In the end it's all about respect for each other.
People who can't respect other people, those are extremists and are bad for the world, even more if they convince others to communicate their beliefs with violence.
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On December 16 2010 07:38 hizBALLIN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:On December 16 2010 06:46 Electric.Jesus wrote:On December 16 2010 06:36 RaptorX wrote:
No. I stated that if you drawn the cartoons you cannot complain about the reactions that might be aroused. I do not see the point of killing 20 inocent people that had nothing to do with the drawing just to make a point (a bomb for example) I do think that if they decide to kill the guy who created the drawings then they can go ahead and behead him or torture him or whatever they want for 2 main reasons:
1) he knew that they would do that and he still draw the cartoons (so he is a dumb ass or an instigator, either way we are better without him)
2) he puts his "freedom of speech" (which he is clearly abusing) above everybody else's safety (so again he is not to be trusted, we are better off without him)
I do not agree with the methods but you must be realistic, those people dont think like you and me (they probably dont think at all, and im not referring to islamic people but to the fanatics in any religion) so reasoning with them doesnt seem to be an option.
So, what do an intelligent people do in that case? avoid those people like we avoid lions and bears.
I am not saying "dont make fun at their gods" since i make fun of all religion myself, what im saying is "DONT BE A FUCKING MORON AND POKE THE THING THAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND ME you fucking idiot"... mock them, make fun at them, do whatever you want but dont taunt them since you will get what you deserve (like what gawk got from 4chan because of being too arrogants).
If you you make some degrading stuff about their religion/god and release it to the media to make your whole country to mock them too then you are fucking asking for it. I feel nothing if you get killed.
Do you get the point?
Wow, this is WRONG on so many levels that I don not even know where to begin. What you say here is vry dagerous thinking because, basically, it means that the "intelligent" people must bow to the will of the fanatics. Following that argument, it the right thing to do to stand aside while Nazis deported the Jews. Not cool, imo. Also, what you do not seems to take into account is that in our society there are laws that actually prohibit people from killing you for religiouos reasons, i.e. while some delusional iditios may think that fathwas are OK (btw, they are not a part of the quran but arose later, around the 12th or 13th century and were politically motivated - quran still says its not cool to kill people). That said, you propose that if you insult a faith which is totally in accorandance with our jurisdiction you have no right to complain when someone attacks you, thereby violating our laws. No. I do not say that we have to do what they say. Ok, I want you to go and grab a knife make a small cut in one of your fingers and then jump in to a water that is infested with sharks. why not? I mean are you going to bow to their "demands"? they "say" that if they smell blood they will eat you.. Well, I feel the same when im dealing with fanatics. They for me are like animals in the sense that you cant reason with them,you cant talk to them and they believe they are right and you are wrong... SOOO... Being the intelligent being that I am I will refrain myself from doing stuff that not only is dangerous for me but for other people as well. Freedom of speech doesnt mean "say whatever is on your mind without thinking about the consequences" . You must weight the consequences and ask yourself: "does depicting a dog with the head of an islamist and basically saying that they are animals bring anything good? no? is it worth it to make the joke EVEN AT EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLES LIVES? no? then why do i have to do it?"
You are free to say whatever you want but that doesnt mean that you have to, specially when what you say will bring nothing good. Again, in my eyes if you are an instigator or a dumb fuck then you are better off out of our world, it will save us a lot of troubles. On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU. Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly. You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward. I'm really pleased the world has individuals as enlightened as you, whom are willing to classify extremists (of any sort) as animals, and will gladly limit the freedoms of rational thinking people world-wide in order to placate these so called "animals." I'm also really glad that you see something wrong with protecting peaceful, open-minded individuals attempting to exercise their unalienable rights. I mean, I guess despite the fact that homo sapiens have a limbic system and neo-cortex, we really can't fault them for acting the same way as an animal that kills at the slightest stimuli, even though my metaphor is terribly incomplete considering the animal is killing for sustenance. You need to ask yourself how your message sounds before you post it, because you come across as too unintelligent to express your opinions without embarrassing yourself. That said, since the population of TL aren't fascists, we won't fault you for expressing such a poorly hashed-out opinion, even though your fault other people for their's.
how can something that will definetely offend people can be considered peaceful? and you need to ask yourself how your message sounds before you post it, because you come across as too unintelligent to express your opinions without embarrassing yourself. That said, since the population of TL aren't fascists, we won't fault you for expressing such a poorly hashed-out opinion, even though your fault other people for their's.
see what i did there?
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On December 16 2010 07:41 Electric.Jesus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:
On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU.
Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly.
I think that murder is illegal in most countries, so your point is invalid. Besides, as I already mentioned, it is condiered sin in the quran as well. Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:
You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward.
Well, that goes both ways, does it not. Lets say that some people feel offended by certain cartoons that are perfectly normal in Western society. But why does no one take into account that might feel offended by the fact that some nutjubs threaten one of the most important cultural achievemtns lacking any rational justification. (I kill you because you drew my imaginary friend, sure thing). But no one takes that into account. Double standards? Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:
--Edit:
Let me add a little radical thought of mine:
If you cant be responsible in the use of "freedom of speech" you probably should not have it at all.
well, food for thought. That shows that you no not understand the concept of freedom of speech. Basically what you say is that you have two choices. a) Use freedom of speech and suffer the consequences. b) Consor yourself and remain unharmed. Basically that means that certain thoughts are not going to be uttered, meaning that freedom of speech does no longer apply.
good points
Now, as far as I understand killing is not really illegal in some Arabic countries, since they use it regularly as a penalty for some absurd (for us) stuff like, infidelity and other cases like killing if you mock their religion so for some groups that seems perfectly fine.
My point was that you cannot judge them with your rules/laws the same as they shouldnt judge us with their rules/laws because that doesnt go. Now, I am sure as hell they will continue judging us with their laws in mind since as i stated they are not very flexible. But at the same time I know that I can control myself.
Remember that I do NOT agree with them, but I do know where to draw the line for my freedom of speech.
What i have been pointing out is that what the cartoons express do not help anybody, so why bother? if they meant to be funny they arent, specially when the lives of other people are at stake.
So yes I do firmly believe that you should weight the consequences of your "speech" before you exercise your "freedom of speech" to see if it is worth it.
If the guy made some important point or tried to put light on to the argument by the means of his cartoons or even if the jokes were not ill-intended then i have no problems with them, but those are plain offensive even to non-islamics... would you like being called a dog/animal just because of what you believe?
So clearly he is abusing his freedom of speech and I do not side with him. At the same time I do not side with the extremists on the fact that they "solve" their problems by sending off some poor goof with bombs attached to die for an ideal that more than 60% of the world considers stupid.
You both sides are at fault, and I see you like kids in the kindergarten fighting on who is right and who is wrong, and while I find it really amusing I really hate how this is affecting the real use of freedom of speech... again you guys are giving more and more excuses to get your freedom taken away because you cannot handle it.
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On December 16 2010 07:38 hizBALLIN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:On December 16 2010 06:46 Electric.Jesus wrote:On December 16 2010 06:36 RaptorX wrote:
No. I stated that if you drawn the cartoons you cannot complain about the reactions that might be aroused. I do not see the point of killing 20 inocent people that had nothing to do with the drawing just to make a point (a bomb for example) I do think that if they decide to kill the guy who created the drawings then they can go ahead and behead him or torture him or whatever they want for 2 main reasons:
1) he knew that they would do that and he still draw the cartoons (so he is a dumb ass or an instigator, either way we are better without him)
2) he puts his "freedom of speech" (which he is clearly abusing) above everybody else's safety (so again he is not to be trusted, we are better off without him)
I do not agree with the methods but you must be realistic, those people dont think like you and me (they probably dont think at all, and im not referring to islamic people but to the fanatics in any religion) so reasoning with them doesnt seem to be an option.
So, what do an intelligent people do in that case? avoid those people like we avoid lions and bears.
I am not saying "dont make fun at their gods" since i make fun of all religion myself, what im saying is "DONT BE A FUCKING MORON AND POKE THE THING THAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND ME you fucking idiot"... mock them, make fun at them, do whatever you want but dont taunt them since you will get what you deserve (like what gawk got from 4chan because of being too arrogants).
If you you make some degrading stuff about their religion/god and release it to the media to make your whole country to mock them too then you are fucking asking for it. I feel nothing if you get killed.
Do you get the point?
Wow, this is WRONG on so many levels that I don not even know where to begin. What you say here is vry dagerous thinking because, basically, it means that the "intelligent" people must bow to the will of the fanatics. Following that argument, it the right thing to do to stand aside while Nazis deported the Jews. Not cool, imo. Also, what you do not seems to take into account is that in our society there are laws that actually prohibit people from killing you for religiouos reasons, i.e. while some delusional iditios may think that fathwas are OK (btw, they are not a part of the quran but arose later, around the 12th or 13th century and were politically motivated - quran still says its not cool to kill people). That said, you propose that if you insult a faith which is totally in accorandance with our jurisdiction you have no right to complain when someone attacks you, thereby violating our laws. No. I do not say that we have to do what they say. Ok, I want you to go and grab a knife make a small cut in one of your fingers and then jump in to a water that is infested with sharks. why not? I mean are you going to bow to their "demands"? they "say" that if they smell blood they will eat you.. Well, I feel the same when im dealing with fanatics. They for me are like animals in the sense that you cant reason with them,you cant talk to them and they believe they are right and you are wrong... SOOO... Being the intelligent being that I am I will refrain myself from doing stuff that not only is dangerous for me but for other people as well. Freedom of speech doesnt mean "say whatever is on your mind without thinking about the consequences" . You must weight the consequences and ask yourself: "does depicting a dog with the head of an islamist and basically saying that they are animals bring anything good? no? is it worth it to make the joke EVEN AT EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLES LIVES? no? then why do i have to do it?"
You are free to say whatever you want but that doesnt mean that you have to, specially when what you say will bring nothing good. Again, in my eyes if you are an instigator or a dumb fuck then you are better off out of our world, it will save us a lot of troubles. On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU. Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly. You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward. I'm really pleased the world has individuals as enlightened as you, whom are willing to classify extremists (of any sort) as animals, and will gladly limit the freedoms of rational thinking people world-wide in order to placate these so called "animals." I'm also really glad that you see something wrong with protecting peaceful, open-minded individuals attempting to exercise their unalienable rights. I mean, I guess despite the fact that homo sapiens have a limbic system and neo-cortex, we really can't fault them for acting the same way as an animal that kills at the slightest stimuli, even though my metaphor is terribly incomplete considering the animal is killing for sustenance. You need to ask yourself how your message sounds before you post it, because you come across as too unintelligent to express your opinions without embarrassing yourself. That said, since the population of TL aren't fascists, we won't fault you for expressing such a poorly hashed-out opinion, even though your fault other people for their's.
First i did not classify them as animals, I compared them to animals, and as i stated it was "in the sense of not being able to rationalize with them"
I am not saying that I want to limit the freedom of speech, I said you should be more responsible with its use. You know like in being an adult and stuff...
And I am not faulting anybody for their opinion, I just dont agree with any of you.
Either i speak very badly (im sorry english is not my first language) or you have much troubles reading between the lines.
Another thing is that I am speaking of Arabs in THEIR country, I agree that if they travel to another country they have to abide and live by the rules of their new home, and they will have to suck up all the shit people say about their religion...
But the ones orchestrating the bombings are not located on the countries they are bombing, just in case you didnt know that. They are intelligent enough to 1) not go themselves (they send the goofs) 2) dont even come to this country for fear of repercutions.
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In complete agreement with Deletrious. The simple fact is that most of us are not Muslim, and do not subscribe to the Quran as the basis of how to live life on this Earth. What I do believe in, more than anything else, is free speech. I'm not going to kill anyone because they believe differently, well, because I try to be a rational human being. That said, I'm not going to give my beliefs a back seat to some fanatic religious extremists, regardless of their threats. IMO doing so makes you a coward, or a person without convictions. Not sure which is worse.
On December 16 2010 07:48 Sanjuro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 16 2010 07:38 hizBALLIN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:On December 16 2010 06:46 Electric.Jesus wrote:On December 16 2010 06:36 RaptorX wrote:
No. I stated that if you drawn the cartoons you cannot complain about the reactions that might be aroused. I do not see the point of killing 20 inocent people that had nothing to do with the drawing just to make a point (a bomb for example) I do think that if they decide to kill the guy who created the drawings then they can go ahead and behead him or torture him or whatever they want for 2 main reasons:
1) he knew that they would do that and he still draw the cartoons (so he is a dumb ass or an instigator, either way we are better without him)
2) he puts his "freedom of speech" (which he is clearly abusing) above everybody else's safety (so again he is not to be trusted, we are better off without him)
I do not agree with the methods but you must be realistic, those people dont think like you and me (they probably dont think at all, and im not referring to islamic people but to the fanatics in any religion) so reasoning with them doesnt seem to be an option.
So, what do an intelligent people do in that case? avoid those people like we avoid lions and bears.
I am not saying "dont make fun at their gods" since i make fun of all religion myself, what im saying is "DONT BE A FUCKING MORON AND POKE THE THING THAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND ME you fucking idiot"... mock them, make fun at them, do whatever you want but dont taunt them since you will get what you deserve (like what gawk got from 4chan because of being too arrogants).
If you you make some degrading stuff about their religion/god and release it to the media to make your whole country to mock them too then you are fucking asking for it. I feel nothing if you get killed.
Do you get the point?
Wow, this is WRONG on so many levels that I don not even know where to begin. What you say here is vry dagerous thinking because, basically, it means that the "intelligent" people must bow to the will of the fanatics. Following that argument, it the right thing to do to stand aside while Nazis deported the Jews. Not cool, imo. Also, what you do not seems to take into account is that in our society there are laws that actually prohibit people from killing you for religiouos reasons, i.e. while some delusional iditios may think that fathwas are OK (btw, they are not a part of the quran but arose later, around the 12th or 13th century and were politically motivated - quran still says its not cool to kill people). That said, you propose that if you insult a faith which is totally in accorandance with our jurisdiction you have no right to complain when someone attacks you, thereby violating our laws. No. I do not say that we have to do what they say. Ok, I want you to go and grab a knife make a small cut in one of your fingers and then jump in to a water that is infested with sharks. why not? I mean are you going to bow to their "demands"? they "say" that if they smell blood they will eat you.. Well, I feel the same when im dealing with fanatics. They for me are like animals in the sense that you cant reason with them,you cant talk to them and they believe they are right and you are wrong... SOOO... Being the intelligent being that I am I will refrain myself from doing stuff that not only is dangerous for me but for other people as well. Freedom of speech doesnt mean "say whatever is on your mind without thinking about the consequences" . You must weight the consequences and ask yourself: "does depicting a dog with the head of an islamist and basically saying that they are animals bring anything good? no? is it worth it to make the joke EVEN AT EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLES LIVES? no? then why do i have to do it?"
You are free to say whatever you want but that doesnt mean that you have to, specially when what you say will bring nothing good. Again, in my eyes if you are an instigator or a dumb fuck then you are better off out of our world, it will save us a lot of troubles. On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU. Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly. You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward. I'm really pleased the world has individuals as enlightened as you, whom are willing to classify extremists (of any sort) as animals, and will gladly limit the freedoms of rational thinking people world-wide in order to placate these so called "animals." I'm also really glad that you see something wrong with protecting peaceful, open-minded individuals attempting to exercise their unalienable rights. I mean, I guess despite the fact that homo sapiens have a limbic system and neo-cortex, we really can't fault them for acting the same way as an animal that kills at the slightest stimuli, even though my metaphor is terribly incomplete considering the animal is killing for sustenance. You need to ask yourself how your message sounds before you post it, because you come across as too unintelligent to express your opinions without embarrassing yourself. That said, since the population of TL aren't fascists, we won't fault you for expressing such a poorly hashed-out opinion, even though your fault other people for their's. how can something that will definetely offend people can be considered peaceful? and you need to ask yourself how your message sounds before you post it, because you come across as too unintelligent to express your opinions without embarrassing yourself. That said, since the population of TL aren't fascists, we won't fault you for expressing such a poorly hashed-out opinion, even though your fault other people for their's. see what i did there?
http://isthatpluralizedwithanapostrophe.com/ (thx JWD)
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On December 16 2010 07:56 RaptorX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 07:41 Electric.Jesus wrote:On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:
On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU.
Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly.
I think that murder is illegal in most countries, so your point is invalid. Besides, as I already mentioned, it is condiered sin in the quran as well. On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:
You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward.
Well, that goes both ways, does it not. Lets say that some people feel offended by certain cartoons that are perfectly normal in Western society. But why does no one take into account that might feel offended by the fact that some nutjubs threaten one of the most important cultural achievemtns lacking any rational justification. (I kill you because you drew my imaginary friend, sure thing). But no one takes that into account. Double standards? On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:
--Edit:
Let me add a little radical thought of mine:
If you cant be responsible in the use of "freedom of speech" you probably should not have it at all.
well, food for thought. That shows that you no not understand the concept of freedom of speech. Basically what you say is that you have two choices. a) Use freedom of speech and suffer the consequences. b) Consor yourself and remain unharmed. Basically that means that certain thoughts are not going to be uttered, meaning that freedom of speech does no longer apply. good points Now, as far as I understand killing is not really illegal in some Arabic countries, since they use it regularly as a penalty for some absurd (for us) stuff like, infidelity and other cases like killing if you mock their religion so for some groups that seems perfectly fine. My point was that you cannot judge them with your rules/laws the same as they shouldnt judge us with their rules/laws because that doesnt go. Now, I am sure as hell they will continue judging us with their laws in mind since as i stated they are not very flexible. But at the same time I know that I can control myself. Remember that I do NOT agree with them, but I do know where to draw the line for my freedom of speech. What i have been pointing out is that what the cartoons express do not help anybody, so why bother? if they meant to be funny they arent, specially when the lives of other people are at stake. So yes I do firmly believe that you should weight the consequences of your "speech" before you exercise your "freedom of speech" to see if it is worth it. If the guy made some important point or tried to put light on to the argument by the means of his cartoons or even if the jokes were not ill-intended then i have no problems with them, but those are plain offensive even to non-islamics... would you like being called a dog/animal just because of what you believe? So clearly he is abusing his freedom of speech and I do not side with him. At the same time I do not side with the extremists on the fact that they "solve" their problems by sending off some poor goof with bombs attached to die for an ideal that more than 60% of the world considers stupid. You both sides are at fault, and I see you like kids in the kindergarten fighting on who is right and who is wrong, and while I find it really amusing I really hate how this is affecting the real use of freedom of speech... again you guys are giving more and more excuses to get your freedom taken away because you cannot handle it.
Are you really incapable of differentiating between killing for food (like a shark), killing for political reasons (like a soldier), and murder (like Islamist fundamentalist suicide bombers)? Yes, no type of killing is pleasant, but some types are necessary (for food), and some types are criminal (like murders).
On December 16 2010 07:48 Sanjuro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 07:38 hizBALLIN wrote:On December 16 2010 07:25 RaptorX wrote:On December 16 2010 06:46 Electric.Jesus wrote:On December 16 2010 06:36 RaptorX wrote:
No. I stated that if you drawn the cartoons you cannot complain about the reactions that might be aroused. I do not see the point of killing 20 inocent people that had nothing to do with the drawing just to make a point (a bomb for example) I do think that if they decide to kill the guy who created the drawings then they can go ahead and behead him or torture him or whatever they want for 2 main reasons:
1) he knew that they would do that and he still draw the cartoons (so he is a dumb ass or an instigator, either way we are better without him)
2) he puts his "freedom of speech" (which he is clearly abusing) above everybody else's safety (so again he is not to be trusted, we are better off without him)
I do not agree with the methods but you must be realistic, those people dont think like you and me (they probably dont think at all, and im not referring to islamic people but to the fanatics in any religion) so reasoning with them doesnt seem to be an option.
So, what do an intelligent people do in that case? avoid those people like we avoid lions and bears.
I am not saying "dont make fun at their gods" since i make fun of all religion myself, what im saying is "DONT BE A FUCKING MORON AND POKE THE THING THAT IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND ME you fucking idiot"... mock them, make fun at them, do whatever you want but dont taunt them since you will get what you deserve (like what gawk got from 4chan because of being too arrogants).
If you you make some degrading stuff about their religion/god and release it to the media to make your whole country to mock them too then you are fucking asking for it. I feel nothing if you get killed.
Do you get the point?
Wow, this is WRONG on so many levels that I don not even know where to begin. What you say here is vry dagerous thinking because, basically, it means that the "intelligent" people must bow to the will of the fanatics. Following that argument, it the right thing to do to stand aside while Nazis deported the Jews. Not cool, imo. Also, what you do not seems to take into account is that in our society there are laws that actually prohibit people from killing you for religiouos reasons, i.e. while some delusional iditios may think that fathwas are OK (btw, they are not a part of the quran but arose later, around the 12th or 13th century and were politically motivated - quran still says its not cool to kill people). That said, you propose that if you insult a faith which is totally in accorandance with our jurisdiction you have no right to complain when someone attacks you, thereby violating our laws. No. I do not say that we have to do what they say. Ok, I want you to go and grab a knife make a small cut in one of your fingers and then jump in to a water that is infested with sharks. why not? I mean are you going to bow to their "demands"? they "say" that if they smell blood they will eat you.. Well, I feel the same when im dealing with fanatics. They for me are like animals in the sense that you cant reason with them,you cant talk to them and they believe they are right and you are wrong... SOOO... Being the intelligent being that I am I will refrain myself from doing stuff that not only is dangerous for me but for other people as well. Freedom of speech doesnt mean "say whatever is on your mind without thinking about the consequences" . You must weight the consequences and ask yourself: "does depicting a dog with the head of an islamist and basically saying that they are animals bring anything good? no? is it worth it to make the joke EVEN AT EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLES LIVES? no? then why do i have to do it?"
You are free to say whatever you want but that doesnt mean that you have to, specially when what you say will bring nothing good. Again, in my eyes if you are an instigator or a dumb fuck then you are better off out of our world, it will save us a lot of troubles. On another note, your silly laws apply only for YOU. Most laws in Germany dont apply in Dominican Republic, and even though part of the world already has a set of "common laws" as part of the globalization process (which might not be as good as they make it sound) there are plenty of countries that 1) do not share the same opinion on those laws or 2) sees them as plain silly. You cannot expect them to behave like you, or abide your laws, simple as that, so you cant bring that argument forward. I'm really pleased the world has individuals as enlightened as you, whom are willing to classify extremists (of any sort) as animals, and will gladly limit the freedoms of rational thinking people world-wide in order to placate these so called "animals." I'm also really glad that you see something wrong with protecting peaceful, open-minded individuals attempting to exercise their unalienable rights. I mean, I guess despite the fact that homo sapiens have a limbic system and neo-cortex, we really can't fault them for acting the same way as an animal that kills at the slightest stimuli, even though my metaphor is terribly incomplete considering the animal is killing for sustenance. You need to ask yourself how your message sounds before you post it, because you come across as too unintelligent to express your opinions without embarrassing yourself. That said, since the population of TL aren't fascists, we won't fault you for expressing such a poorly hashed-out opinion, even though your fault other people for their's. how can something that will definetely offend people can be considered peaceful? and you need to ask yourself how your message sounds before you post it, because you come across as too unintelligent to express your opinions without embarrassing yourself. That said, since the population of TL aren't fascists, we won't fault you for expressing such a poorly hashed-out opinion, even though your fault other people for their's. see what i did there?
You must be trolling, or English is a language you're not familiar with, or you have no formal education. No one is stupid enough to legitimately believe that offensive imagery (or forums posts for that matter) are synonymous with violence. Peacefulness is a measurement of violence, not agreeability. Ghandi was not necessarily an agreeable person, given his advocation of civil disobedience, but no intelligent human would ever call him violent.
Do you really feel that in order to have a right to express yourself, you must be a peaceful individual? What idiot taught you that?
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People in some nations don't understand the meaning of freedom of expression. To some people freedom is only freedom in such that you don't do anything offensive, annoying, hateful, etc to them. A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want. Talking good or bad about anything, from food to religion, from people to corporations.
My father and his family had to leave Iran in the late 1980s since they are a minority christian people called Assyrians and recently a ton more are leaving Iraq because the new government is just as bad as the old. They are not allowed to express their religion how they want to and are mocked and killed for it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/13/world/middleeast/13iraq.html?src=me
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On December 16 2010 07:13 Sanjuro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 06:36 Jswizzy wrote:Religion's need to be open to scrutiny and ridicule, if history has shown mankind anything it is that religion attracts extremist and the delusional individuals who will bend and warp an otherwise well intended idea or philosophy into their own personal crusade against anyone who challenges them or their world view. I am not naive enough to generalize all Arabs or Muslims, they all have their own own beliefs and no one really has the same exact religious beliefs or view of god/religion, religion and spirituality are personal matters. But I do think that Islam needs to be checked just like any other religion. There are plenty of modernized and progressive Muslims nations out there but there are still tons of fundamentalist fascist Islamic states, who abuse women and commit horrible acts against anyone who steps out of line in the name of Islam(ex: women in Sudan lashed for wearing trousers + Show Spoiler +. Should I not challenge Islam because I might offend someone who is a moderate? Well, my answer is I am not trying to offend them but I cannot pull my punches against radicals and fascist just because I may offend someone. Should I not criticize the Pope for protecting pedophiles and child molesters because the majority of Catholics are peaceful and respectful, well no that would be turning a blind eye to evil. Also America has a long history of being a targeted for attack by radical Muslims, 300 years ago we had to deal with Barbary pirates, just look at how the Koran was used as a justification by an Islamic state to pillage and pirate Western states. In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy in London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:
It was written in their Qu'ran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every Muslim who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once. [13] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_WarTLR; People use religion as an excuse to commit evil so it should be open to attack and criticism, sorry if your feelings get hurt. America has a long history of shit doings also, every nation in this whole planet has done crappy things if you look at it with today's standard. Try looking at something with an open mind... Barbary pirates.... hmmmmmm they are pirates!!!! what the hell do expect from a pirate? well my point is that you said People that uses religion as an excuse to commit evil should be open to attack and criticism, then criticize those guys, why go for the Prophet Muhammad?
Because apparently he endorses it if it's in the Quaran, right? I have no background knowledge on this subject really, just going off the text he quoted.
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On December 16 2010 08:06 contraSol wrote:
That said, I'm not going to give my beliefs a back seat to some fanatic religious extremists, regardless of their threats. IMO doing so makes you a coward, or a person without convictions. Not sure which is worse.
if you substitute fanatic religious extremists with fanatic freedom extremists you are also describing what the radicals thinks
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EPT
