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"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think?
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On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think?
Your point is that you feel that he is thus "abusing" his freedom of speech. It seems most people disagree with your definition. He is not "abusing" anything. He is only exercising it. If the radicals also were threatening to kill innocents if abortion was legalized in the United States, what would your stance be? Would you blame the people that voted pro-choice?
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On December 16 2010 08:20 Sanjuro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:06 contraSol wrote:
That said, I'm not going to give my beliefs a back seat to some fanatic religious extremists, regardless of their threats. IMO doing so makes you a coward, or a person without convictions. Not sure which is worse. if you substitute fanatic religious extremists with fanatic freedom extremists you are also describing what the radicals thinks
I've never met a "fanatic freedom extremist" who has strapped explosives to himself and bombed civilians for their speech. That would actually run counter to their beliefs (granted, bombing civilians runs counter to the principle that Islam is a peaceful religion). Come to think of it, I don't know what constitutes a "fanatic freedom extremist". That would be an anarchist, no?
The point is, there are going to be disagreements between the billions of people and belief systems on this planet no matter what. What you're doing is placing blame on the people vocally disagreeing rather than the people arguing their side with high explosives.
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On December 16 2010 08:20 Sanjuro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:06 contraSol wrote:
That said, I'm not going to give my beliefs a back seat to some fanatic religious extremists, regardless of their threats. IMO doing so makes you a coward, or a person without convictions. Not sure which is worse. if you substitute fanatic religious extremists with fanatic freedom extremists you are also describing what the radicals thinks
Fanatic freedom extremists? Really?
On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think?
I guess I just can't wrap my mind around your contempt for temerity; why don't you believe that someone with an unpopular or "dangerous" (not in the literal sense of the word, so you and Sanjuro don't Forrest Gump your way through that) idea is often the person that needs to be heard the most? That without people willing to question the status quo, literally every piece of accumulated knowledge humanity has cobbled together would never have been learned in the first place?
Questioning our own values is something that most of the world does, because it allows us to alter or discard values and ideas that hinder us, and reaffirms those that are beneficial. The act of physically drawing a depiction of Muhammed is the West's metaphor for the values of Islam, values we question at length. Most reasonable-minded people question at least some of Islam's values, especially the treatment of women.
Sanjuro and RaptorX certainly have no inhibitions about questioning the values of many posters in this thread, yet they take issue with those of us that do the same?
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On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think?
Your post grossly offends me. I am going to kill you and it won't be my fault because you choose to provoke me.
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On December 16 2010 08:29 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think? Your point is that you feel that he is thus "abusing" his freedom of speech. It seems most people disagree with your definition. He is not "abusing" anything. He is only exercising it. If the radicals also were threatening to kill innocents if abortion was legalized in the United States, what would your stance be? Would you blame the people that voted pro-choice?
Quite true...
the problem with this type of moral issues is that it is very difficult to draw a line on what is good and what is bad.
What i think is that as long as your actions provoke the death of other people you should be very reserved on "exercising" your "right".
It is like saying that i have the "right" of opening the cage that contains that hungry lion down there, even though there is a bunch of people trapped inside a room where the lion is going to be released from, I am actually quite safe in a high place... so... Should I "exercise" my "right" of opening the cage even though that means the death of all those people down there for NO REASON?
I mean if the people trapped down there were criminals that raped and killed my family then hell yeah open it and enjoy it..
So lets step out of the analogy for a second...
The lion is your current thought which is trapped in your head at the moment and that if released has the potential of killing some people (extremists will bomb innocent civilians), should you "exercise" your "right" at this particular moment?
isnt the death of those people in your hands?... is your motive clean or are you an ill-intended person?
why are you doing it?
is it worth it?
Isnt that abusing his right instead of using it for good?
again, you are free to do what you want (in this analogy to open the cage) but is that the right thing to do? if not then you are abusing your right.
Now change the analogy to fit the description of the abortion thing you just mentioned.
The answer is YES I would blame them. Is it ok what the extremists are doing HELL NO. But if voting yes would get people killed I will find a different way to get my message across.
I would fight for my opinion until it is heard but I will not do stupid stuff that will get me/other people killed. That seems intelligent enough doesnt it?
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On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think?
Indeed freedom of speech is not nor should it be absolute. Consider the statement, McDonalds burgers made of human meat, in a large newspaper. Why should I be allowed to say that without consequences?
Of course the Muhammed drawings are a different issue, but certain things should not be said in certain situations.
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On December 16 2010 08:30 contraSol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:20 Sanjuro wrote:On December 16 2010 08:06 contraSol wrote:
That said, I'm not going to give my beliefs a back seat to some fanatic religious extremists, regardless of their threats. IMO doing so makes you a coward, or a person without convictions. Not sure which is worse. if you substitute fanatic religious extremists with fanatic freedom extremists you are also describing what the radicals thinks I've never met a "fanatic freedom extremist" who has strapped explosives to himself and bombed civilians for their speech. That would actually run counter to their beliefs (granted, bombing civilians runs counter to the principle that Islam is a peaceful religion). Come to think of it, I don't know what constitutes a "fanatic freedom extremist". That would be an anarchist, no?
Sorry but in my eyes you just described America.
They think all countries should have "freedom of speech" and use it as an excuse to go and bomb them.
On December 16 2010 08:35 hizBALLIN wrote:
I guess I just can't wrap my mind around your contempt for temerity; why don't you believe that someone with an unpopular or "dangerous" (not in the literal sense of the word, so you and Sanjuro don't Forrest Gump your way through that) idea is often the person that needs to be heard the most? That without people willing to question the status quo, literally every piece of accumulated knowledge humanity has cobbled together would never have been learned in the first place?
Questioning our own values is something that most of the world does, because it allows us to alter or discard values and ideas that hinder us, and reaffirms those that are beneficial. The act of physically drawing a depiction of Muhammed is the West's metaphor for the values of Islam, values we question at length. Most reasonable-minded people question at least some of Islam's values, especially the treatment of women.
Sanjuro and RaptorX certainly have no inhibitions about questioning the values of many posters in this thread, yet they take issue with those of us that do the same?
After this post i think I actually agree with your main idea what I do not agree with is HOW that idea is being delivered.
I do believe islam/christianism/any religion must be questioned and they should be open to it.
now please answer me honestly: that image of a dog with an image of a muslim... does that help at all with getting your idea across?? is insulting other people the only way to go?
I think not.
At the same time what they do and how they react is also bad and in my opinion it should change but I rather use a different method to make them understand that. After they do understand Im sure that joking about their god wont be seen as radical as it is now.
For the time being I think that exercising prudence is way above in the priority list than using our freedom of speech
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Raptor your analogy is terribly flawed, most so when you say "Should I "exercise" my "right" of opening the cage even though that means the death of all those people down there for NO REASON?"
This is not no reason, freedom of expression, ideas and speech are one of the driving powers behind democracy as well as individual freedom and to give in to those who would strip of us these freedoms due to potential harm is fundamentally wrong.
Fighting for rights and freedoms in spite of great opposition, danger and harm is what has conquered evils in societys across the globe and history such as slavery, oppresive governments//monarchys and countless other examples.
I for one am not prepared to abandon, or restrict freedom of speech even at the expense of suffering to myself or others, and anyone who values the essential freedoms that humanity ought to have should stand along side me.
FIGHT THE POWER!
(sarcastic//exaggeratory post, bit in humour, but I do actually stand by it ^^)
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On December 16 2010 08:51 XeliN wrote:
Raptor your analogy is terribly flawed, most so when you say "Should I "exercise" my "right" of opening the cage even though that means the death of all those people down there for NO REASON?"
This is not no reason, freedom of expression, ideas and speech are one of the driving powers behind democracy as well as individual freedom and to give in to those who would strip of us these freedoms due to potential harm is fundamentally wrong.
Fighting for rights and freedoms in spite of great opposition, danger and harm is what has conquered evils in societys across the globe and history such as slavery, oppresive governments//monarchys and countless other examples.
I for one am not prepared to abandon, or restrict freedom of speech even at the expense of suffering to myself or others, and anyone who values the essential freedoms that humanity ought to have should stand along side me.
FIGHT THE POWER!
(sarcastic//exaggeratory post, bit in humour, but I do actually stand by it ^^)
I have centered most of my arguing based on this image:
![[image loading]](http://striderweb.com/blog/images/dogbody.jpg)
how does this help getting your idea of freedom of speech to that country?
how does insulting bring anything good?
I simply dont get it.
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Raptor, whenever you hear "freedom" used by American politicians in reference to "liberating" a country, it's rhetoric. That's not the reason they actually decided to invade. Not sure why I even answered that, since it's irrelevant to the discussion. The US Government is not always right, nor are they the polar opposite of Muslim extremists. Next time you find yourself at a loss for counter arguments, try to stay away from making a generalization about a group of people that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
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On December 16 2010 08:41 RaptorX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think? Your point is that you feel that he is thus "abusing" his freedom of speech. It seems most people disagree with your definition. He is not "abusing" anything. He is only exercising it. If the radicals also were threatening to kill innocents if abortion was legalized in the United States, what would your stance be? Would you blame the people that voted pro-choice? Quite true... the problem with this type of moral issues is that it is very difficult to draw a line on what is good and what is bad. What i think is that as long as your actions provoke the death of other people you should be very reserved on "exercising" your "right". It is like saying that i have the "right" of opening the cage that contains that hungry lion down there, even though there is a bunch of people trapped inside a room where the lion is going to be released from, I am actually quite safe in a high place... so... Should I "exercise" my "right" of opening the cage even though that means the death of all those people down there for NO REASON? I mean if the people trapped down there were criminals that raped and killed my family then hell yeah open it and enjoy it.. So lets step out of the analogy for a second... The lion is your current thought which is trapped in your head at the moment and that if released has the potential of killing some people (extremists will bomb innocent civilians), should you "exercise" your "right" at this particular moment? isnt the death of those people in your hands?... is your motive clean or are you an ill-intended person? why are you doing it? is it worth it? Isnt that abusing his right instead of using it for good? again, you are free to do what you want (in this analogy to open the cage) but is that the right thing to do? if not then you are abusing your right. Now change the analogy to fit the description of the abortion thing you just mentioned. The answer is YES I would blame them. Is it ok what the extremists are doing HELL NO. But if voting yes would get people killed I will find a different way to get my message across. I would fight for my opinion until it is heard but I will not do stupid stuff that will get me/other people killed. That seems intelligent enough doesnt it?
No. What you say does not seem intelligent. A person with your mentality is dead-weight.
Freedom of speech must be ENFORCED. If people are willing to go to the lengths of violence to destroy it, the situation forces the better class of human beings to respond in kind.
You may one day come across a extremist so offended at the fact that you are not of his creed that he will try to kill you.
Who will come to your aid? All the 'adult and intelligent' individuals' having long since conceded to the extremists.
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On December 16 2010 09:02 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:41 RaptorX wrote:On December 16 2010 08:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think? Your point is that you feel that he is thus "abusing" his freedom of speech. It seems most people disagree with your definition. He is not "abusing" anything. He is only exercising it. If the radicals also were threatening to kill innocents if abortion was legalized in the United States, what would your stance be? Would you blame the people that voted pro-choice? Quite true... the problem with this type of moral issues is that it is very difficult to draw a line on what is good and what is bad. What i think is that as long as your actions provoke the death of other people you should be very reserved on "exercising" your "right". It is like saying that i have the "right" of opening the cage that contains that hungry lion down there, even though there is a bunch of people trapped inside a room where the lion is going to be released from, I am actually quite safe in a high place... so... Should I "exercise" my "right" of opening the cage even though that means the death of all those people down there for NO REASON? I mean if the people trapped down there were criminals that raped and killed my family then hell yeah open it and enjoy it.. So lets step out of the analogy for a second... The lion is your current thought which is trapped in your head at the moment and that if released has the potential of killing some people (extremists will bomb innocent civilians), should you "exercise" your "right" at this particular moment? isnt the death of those people in your hands?... is your motive clean or are you an ill-intended person? why are you doing it? is it worth it? Isnt that abusing his right instead of using it for good? again, you are free to do what you want (in this analogy to open the cage) but is that the right thing to do? if not then you are abusing your right. Now change the analogy to fit the description of the abortion thing you just mentioned. The answer is YES I would blame them. Is it ok what the extremists are doing HELL NO. But if voting yes would get people killed I will find a different way to get my message across. I would fight for my opinion until it is heard but I will not do stupid stuff that will get me/other people killed. That seems intelligent enough doesnt it? No. What you say does not seem intelligent. A person with your mentality is dead-weight. Freedom of speech must be ENFORCED. If people are willing to go to the lengths of violence to destroy it, the situation forces the better class of human beings to respond in kind. You may one day come across a extremist so offended at the fact that you are not of his creed that he will try to kill you. Who will come to your aid? All the 'adult and intelligent' individuals' having long since conceded to the extremists.
Lol they were trying to find the "freedom of speech" extremist and you showed yourself.
As the saying goes "work smarter not harder". I will make other people understand the importance of freedom of speech without having to go down to their levels and act like them. Yes you think exactly like them but with a different idea, they want to ENFORCE their believe the same way as you do.
As I said before you both groups look the same to me... kids in a kindergarten.
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On December 16 2010 09:02 contraSol wrote:
Raptor, whenever you hear "freedom" used by American politicians in reference to "liberating" a country, it's rhetoric. That's not the reason they actually decided to invade. Not sure why I even answered that, since it's irrelevant to the discussion. The US Government is not always right, nor are they the polar opposite of Muslim extremists. Next time you find yourself at a loss for counter arguments, try to stay away from making a generalization about a group of people that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Point taken.
Thanks for clarifying that. 
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On December 16 2010 09:06 RaptorX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 16 2010 09:02 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:41 RaptorX wrote:On December 16 2010 08:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think? Your point is that you feel that he is thus "abusing" his freedom of speech. It seems most people disagree with your definition. He is not "abusing" anything. He is only exercising it. If the radicals also were threatening to kill innocents if abortion was legalized in the United States, what would your stance be? Would you blame the people that voted pro-choice? Quite true... the problem with this type of moral issues is that it is very difficult to draw a line on what is good and what is bad. What i think is that as long as your actions provoke the death of other people you should be very reserved on "exercising" your "right". It is like saying that i have the "right" of opening the cage that contains that hungry lion down there, even though there is a bunch of people trapped inside a room where the lion is going to be released from, I am actually quite safe in a high place... so... Should I "exercise" my "right" of opening the cage even though that means the death of all those people down there for NO REASON? I mean if the people trapped down there were criminals that raped and killed my family then hell yeah open it and enjoy it.. So lets step out of the analogy for a second... The lion is your current thought which is trapped in your head at the moment and that if released has the potential of killing some people (extremists will bomb innocent civilians), should you "exercise" your "right" at this particular moment? isnt the death of those people in your hands?... is your motive clean or are you an ill-intended person? why are you doing it? is it worth it? Isnt that abusing his right instead of using it for good? again, you are free to do what you want (in this analogy to open the cage) but is that the right thing to do? if not then you are abusing your right. Now change the analogy to fit the description of the abortion thing you just mentioned. The answer is YES I would blame them. Is it ok what the extremists are doing HELL NO. But if voting yes would get people killed I will find a different way to get my message across. I would fight for my opinion until it is heard but I will not do stupid stuff that will get me/other people killed. That seems intelligent enough doesnt it? No. What you say does not seem intelligent. A person with your mentality is dead-weight. Freedom of speech must be ENFORCED. If people are willing to go to the lengths of violence to destroy it, the situation forces the better class of human beings to respond in kind. You may one day come across a extremist so offended at the fact that you are not of his creed that he will try to kill you. Who will come to your aid? All the 'adult and intelligent' individuals' having long since conceded to the extremists. Lol they were trying to find the "freedom of speech" extremist and you showed yourself. As the saying goes "work smarter not harder". I will make other people understand the importance of freedom of speech without having to go down to their levels and act like them. Yes you think exactly like them but with a different idea, they want to ENFORCE their believe the same way as you do. As I said before you both groups look the same to me... kids in a kindergarten.
You're doing it again.. comparing speech to killing people. Can you not see how ridiculous that is?
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On December 16 2010 09:09 contraSol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 09:06 RaptorX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 16 2010 09:02 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:41 RaptorX wrote:On December 16 2010 08:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think? Your point is that you feel that he is thus "abusing" his freedom of speech. It seems most people disagree with your definition. He is not "abusing" anything. He is only exercising it. If the radicals also were threatening to kill innocents if abortion was legalized in the United States, what would your stance be? Would you blame the people that voted pro-choice? Quite true... the problem with this type of moral issues is that it is very difficult to draw a line on what is good and what is bad. What i think is that as long as your actions provoke the death of other people you should be very reserved on "exercising" your "right". It is like saying that i have the "right" of opening the cage that contains that hungry lion down there, even though there is a bunch of people trapped inside a room where the lion is going to be released from, I am actually quite safe in a high place... so... Should I "exercise" my "right" of opening the cage even though that means the death of all those people down there for NO REASON? I mean if the people trapped down there were criminals that raped and killed my family then hell yeah open it and enjoy it.. So lets step out of the analogy for a second... The lion is your current thought which is trapped in your head at the moment and that if released has the potential of killing some people (extremists will bomb innocent civilians), should you "exercise" your "right" at this particular moment? isnt the death of those people in your hands?... is your motive clean or are you an ill-intended person? why are you doing it? is it worth it? Isnt that abusing his right instead of using it for good? again, you are free to do what you want (in this analogy to open the cage) but is that the right thing to do? if not then you are abusing your right. Now change the analogy to fit the description of the abortion thing you just mentioned. The answer is YES I would blame them. Is it ok what the extremists are doing HELL NO. But if voting yes would get people killed I will find a different way to get my message across. I would fight for my opinion until it is heard but I will not do stupid stuff that will get me/other people killed. That seems intelligent enough doesnt it? No. What you say does not seem intelligent. A person with your mentality is dead-weight. Freedom of speech must be ENFORCED. If people are willing to go to the lengths of violence to destroy it, the situation forces the better class of human beings to respond in kind. You may one day come across a extremist so offended at the fact that you are not of his creed that he will try to kill you. Who will come to your aid? All the 'adult and intelligent' individuals' having long since conceded to the extremists. Lol they were trying to find the "freedom of speech" extremist and you showed yourself. As the saying goes "work smarter not harder". I will make other people understand the importance of freedom of speech without having to go down to their levels and act like them. Yes you think exactly like them but with a different idea, they want to ENFORCE their believe the same way as you do. As I said before you both groups look the same to me... kids in a kindergarten. You're doing it again.. comparing speech to killing people. Can you not see how ridiculous that is?
if you didnt know, a lot of times a few words can cause more damage than killing some one.
I would be more careful of things being said than a gun.
A gun kills you in a few seconds, something that somebody said that really hurt you can haunt you for years until the end of your life.
again there is something called responsibility... you should use it when you express yourself.
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On December 16 2010 09:06 RaptorX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 09:02 Consolidate wrote:On December 16 2010 08:41 RaptorX wrote:On December 16 2010 08:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think? Your point is that you feel that he is thus "abusing" his freedom of speech. It seems most people disagree with your definition. He is not "abusing" anything. He is only exercising it. If the radicals also were threatening to kill innocents if abortion was legalized in the United States, what would your stance be? Would you blame the people that voted pro-choice? Quite true... the problem with this type of moral issues is that it is very difficult to draw a line on what is good and what is bad. What i think is that as long as your actions provoke the death of other people you should be very reserved on "exercising" your "right". It is like saying that i have the "right" of opening the cage that contains that hungry lion down there, even though there is a bunch of people trapped inside a room where the lion is going to be released from, I am actually quite safe in a high place... so... Should I "exercise" my "right" of opening the cage even though that means the death of all those people down there for NO REASON? I mean if the people trapped down there were criminals that raped and killed my family then hell yeah open it and enjoy it.. So lets step out of the analogy for a second... The lion is your current thought which is trapped in your head at the moment and that if released has the potential of killing some people (extremists will bomb innocent civilians), should you "exercise" your "right" at this particular moment? isnt the death of those people in your hands?... is your motive clean or are you an ill-intended person? why are you doing it? is it worth it? Isnt that abusing his right instead of using it for good? again, you are free to do what you want (in this analogy to open the cage) but is that the right thing to do? if not then you are abusing your right. Now change the analogy to fit the description of the abortion thing you just mentioned. The answer is YES I would blame them. Is it ok what the extremists are doing HELL NO. But if voting yes would get people killed I will find a different way to get my message across. I would fight for my opinion until it is heard but I will not do stupid stuff that will get me/other people killed. That seems intelligent enough doesnt it? No. What you say does not seem intelligent. A person with your mentality is dead-weight. Freedom of speech must be ENFORCED. If people are willing to go to the lengths of violence to destroy it, the situation forces the better class of human beings to respond in kind. You may one day come across a extremist so offended at the fact that you are not of his creed that he will try to kill you. Who will come to your aid? All the 'adult and intelligent' individuals' having long since conceded to the extremists. Lol they were trying to find the "freedom of speech" extremist and you showed yourself. As the saying goes "work smarter not harder". I will make other people understand the importance of freedom of speech without having to go down to their levels and act like them. Yes you think exactly like them but with a different idea, they want to ENFORCE their believe the same way as you do. As I said before you both groups look the same to me... kids in a kindergarten.
You have the worst logic I have ever seen. Comparing freedom of speech to religious extremism? "Freedom of speech extremist"? I can't even wrap my mind around how bizarre your reasoning is.
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On December 16 2010 09:13 RaptorX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 16 2010 09:09 contraSol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 09:06 RaptorX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 16 2010 09:02 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:41 RaptorX wrote:On December 16 2010 08:29 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think? Your point is that you feel that he is thus "abusing" his freedom of speech. It seems most people disagree with your definition. He is not "abusing" anything. He is only exercising it. If the radicals also were threatening to kill innocents if abortion was legalized in the United States, what would your stance be? Would you blame the people that voted pro-choice? Quite true... the problem with this type of moral issues is that it is very difficult to draw a line on what is good and what is bad. What i think is that as long as your actions provoke the death of other people you should be very reserved on "exercising" your "right". It is like saying that i have the "right" of opening the cage that contains that hungry lion down there, even though there is a bunch of people trapped inside a room where the lion is going to be released from, I am actually quite safe in a high place... so... Should I "exercise" my "right" of opening the cage even though that means the death of all those people down there for NO REASON? I mean if the people trapped down there were criminals that raped and killed my family then hell yeah open it and enjoy it.. So lets step out of the analogy for a second... The lion is your current thought which is trapped in your head at the moment and that if released has the potential of killing some people (extremists will bomb innocent civilians), should you "exercise" your "right" at this particular moment? isnt the death of those people in your hands?... is your motive clean or are you an ill-intended person? why are you doing it? is it worth it? Isnt that abusing his right instead of using it for good? again, you are free to do what you want (in this analogy to open the cage) but is that the right thing to do? if not then you are abusing your right. Now change the analogy to fit the description of the abortion thing you just mentioned. The answer is YES I would blame them. Is it ok what the extremists are doing HELL NO. But if voting yes would get people killed I will find a different way to get my message across. I would fight for my opinion until it is heard but I will not do stupid stuff that will get me/other people killed. That seems intelligent enough doesnt it? No. What you say does not seem intelligent. A person with your mentality is dead-weight. Freedom of speech must be ENFORCED. If people are willing to go to the lengths of violence to destroy it, the situation forces the better class of human beings to respond in kind. You may one day come across a extremist so offended at the fact that you are not of his creed that he will try to kill you. Who will come to your aid? All the 'adult and intelligent' individuals' having long since conceded to the extremists. Lol they were trying to find the "freedom of speech" extremist and you showed yourself. As the saying goes "work smarter not harder". I will make other people understand the importance of freedom of speech without having to go down to their levels and act like them. Yes you think exactly like them but with a different idea, they want to ENFORCE their believe the same way as you do. As I said before you both groups look the same to me... kids in a kindergarten. You're doing it again.. comparing speech to killing people. Can you not see how ridiculous that is? if you didnt know, a lot of times a few words can cause more damage than killing some one. I would be more careful of things being said than a gun. A gun kills you in a few seconds, something that somebody said that really hurt you can haunt you for years until the end of your life. again there is something called responsibility... you should use it when you express yourself.
I lol'd. Is this a level?
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On December 16 2010 08:48 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 08:21 RaptorX wrote:
"A truly free society is one in which the people can express themselves however they want"
In the real World, that one that we live in, that doesnt exist because some times when you act "however you want" simply brings bad things not only to you but for other people.
You should be adult and intelligent enough to figure out that some times "what you want" is not in the best interest for you or the people around you at that particular moment.
Here comes my radical thought again, I dont mind of what you do as long as I am out of it, but when what you do, simply agitates the bees then I will simply laugh when they start biting you.
I love freedom of speech and I dont want it diminished, but there is something called responsibility and that guy will be responsible for the lives taken by the extremists because he used his freedom to provoke them. So it is his fault and I feel nothing for him.
There has to be a different way to persuade the fanatics that killing in the name of their god is not such a good thing instead of insulting them, dont you think? Indeed freedom of speech is not nor should it be absolute. Consider the statement, McDonalds burgers made of human meat, in a large newspaper. Why should I be allowed to say that without consequences? Of course the Muhammed drawings are a different issue, but certain things should not be said in certain situations.
The consequences should not come from the government. In your case, the consequence would be the natural damage to the newspaper's credibility once its reported claim is quickly disproved.
In the United States, Glenn Beck is allowed to lie on television for the sole purpose of driving the public to panic (also ratings).
We do not jail holocaust deniers.
We do not jail fear-mongers.
We do not jail liars.
Freedom of speech is absolute. I am allowed to shout fire in a crowded theatre because there may in fact, be a fire. And if there isn't, then my credibility will suffer, but I should not be punished otherwise so as not to discourage other people from speaking what they think is the truth.
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EPT
