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On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe. I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration. "What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" - John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal CounselWell, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government. I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia: "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi.
TELL ME WHERE THE BOMB IS SCOUTING OVERLORD
WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME
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Modern torture doesnt end after the subject leaves Guantanamo. Many of the INNOCENT people have long term side effects but no one of the US government cares. Torture is wrong, whatever the reason
In my opinion torture should be use sometimes. Sure it should allways be aprove by someone with real power like a judge or something.
If by torturing you get enemy position, tactics, weakness, I think you should use it. Why do people acept death in war and not torture?
If you are killing someone for what ever war reason you are doing ( offcurse the war is morally right to you ) why is torture not allowed? I mean, it is actually a tactic that can save alot of time, lives and money.
Countries do torture because it works. For me it is a valide tactic.
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Is anyone interested in actually discussing the prognosis for the current situation in the Central Asian region, or is everyone more interested in harping on a semi-funny prod at redneck conservative views common to southern US politics and people?
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On April 26 2011 03:12 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe. I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration. "What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" - John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal CounselWell, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government. I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia: "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi. This line of thought is disgusting. Torture is immoral, wrong, and even if you ignore both of those facts, it doesn't even bloody work. All it gets you is the quickest lie to get the pain to stop, and it's not an accepted technique for information gathering. And I love how you immediately blame it on liberal America, as if the nation is split between everyone who is liberal and everyone who is not. Christ, I wish people would start thinking before they open their damn mouths.
The John Yoo bullshit is such a sophistic argument.
Basically the whole Scouting Overlord post sounds to me like flawed logic and closed-to-fascist propaganda. The whole thing about freedom makes me laugh out loud. Yes, dude, terrorist attack you because they hate your freedom. That's a deep analysis of the world current situation.
No wonder why America is considered the way it is, all around the world. The only thing you proved while trying to defend torture, which is something we shouldn't even talk about in a civilized society is that you don't worth much better on a moral point of view that your medieval opponents.
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On April 26 2011 03:52 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe. I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration. "What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" - John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal CounselWell, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government. I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia: "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi. TELL ME WHERE THE BOMB IS SCOUTING OVERLORD WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME
Yes, something like that.
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On April 26 2011 03:53 chickenhawk wrote:
If by torturing you get enemy position, tactics, weakness, I think you should use it. Why do people accept death in war and not torture?
Because death in war is a matter of necessity or the result of judicial action. You cannot simply execute a person at whim who has surrendered or been captured; it is a violation of the Geneva convention. In order to torture someone, they have to be in captivity; thus, there is no way for torture to be viewed as acceptable.
To be more clear:
You cannot arbitrarily kill someone in captivity. Torture requires captivity. Thus, neither is acceptable in that circumstance, even in a time of war.
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In fact the simple fact that we consider and discuss torture as an option in a modern democracy is really worrynig in itself, and shows our dreadful moral decay and our complete loss of humanistic values.
Torture shouldn't be even discussed, and should be considered as a what it is: a barbarian crime from another age.
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til democrats want freedom of information republicans want jack bauer
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wikilieaks are amazing, informations should be uncensored
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On April 26 2011 03:48 leakingpear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 03:36 Rabiator wrote:On April 26 2011 03:25 DragonDefonce wrote:
Scouting overlord/// almost trolled me buddy. Almost. Pretty sure you got at least a handful of people though. You dont troll in such a serious topic ... you just dont, because it is impossible to be 100% sure that your sarcasm / trolling is recognized for what it is. I didnt get it and I think anyone who jokes about torture is an idiot. People who are serious about it are totally evil ... more evil than terrorists who blow up other people, because they are hiding behind law and try to sell those things as "good". Modern torture doesnt end after the subject leaves Guantanamo. Many of the INNOCENT people have long term side effects but no one of the US government cares. Torture is wrong, whatever the reason. He attributed ridiculous quotes about the TV show 24 to a supreme court judge on the subject of torture, if you can't recognise that as sarcasm and a joke you really need to stop being such a sourpuss. Also what the hell are you doing trying to tell people what they "JUST DON'T DO" in a thread on the internet, I mean ignoring the fact that it wasn't trolling as much as pretty good satire on pro-torture proponents (and thus supporting your view as if that matters), you tell people not to do something and they'll do it more. And seriously if stupid people misinterpret satire as truth, then that's a mark of quality of the satire and it's not like you can change their views if they're that remarkably stupid. Their views are formed by mediocre propagandists who sell shitty ideas to reactionaries who can't or don't want to ever actually think about anything.
You wish that the quote was ridiculous. Actually Scalia said this
http://www.newsweek.com/2008/07/25/the-fiction-behind-torture-policy.html
And so did Yoo.
Sad thing is that just like Colbert, such satire is a window on the fucked upness of american politics. People believe that he said this because other people actually do say it and mean it. That includes your SoS, justice of the supreme court, OLC.
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Everyone who thinks that torture is ok, to get informations, is a terrorist himself and should be sent to guantanamo bay.
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torturing leads to information.
informaion leads to knowledge.
knowledge is power.
power is (but not limited to) dominance over others.
one of these countries has got to do it right?
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On April 26 2011 05:34 QuoC wrote:
torturing leads to information.
informaion leads to knowledge.
knowledge is power.
power is (but not limited to) dominance over others.
one of these countries has got to do it right?
torturing doesn't lead to information.
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On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe. I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration. "What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" - John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal CounselWell, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government. I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia: "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi.
scouting overlord, Trolling for Justice
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On April 26 2011 05:45 BlackFlag wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 05:34 QuoC wrote:
torturing leads to information.
informaion leads to knowledge.
knowledge is power.
power is (but not limited to) dominance over others.
one of these countries has got to do it right? torturing doesn't lead to information.
Indeed. Torturing leads to "terrorists":
http://www.businessinsider.com/guantanamo-document-leak-2011-4
First, people released from Guantanamo often return to terrorism.
Second, people who have suffered at Guantanamo all this time seem even more likely to return to terrorism.
Let me fix that quote from business insider:
First, people released from Guantanamo often turn to terrorism.
Second, people who have suffered at Guantanamo all this time seem even more likely to turn to terrorism.
Gitmo is one big terrorist training camp, lol.
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On April 26 2011 05:45 BlackFlag wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 05:34 QuoC wrote:
torturing leads to information.
informaion leads to knowledge.
knowledge is power.
power is (but not limited to) dominance over others.
one of these countries has got to do it right? torturing doesn't lead to information.
Yes it does.
+ Show Spoiler +No one said it had to be true information.
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This is what I am confused about, why, in a war supported by the American people (the war in Afghanistan), the release of this information is even required. I don't understand why this information needs to be made public. Does it cause any direct harm to soldiers? Quite possibly. By describing troop movements, engagement tactics and other information not easily found, it could risk our soldiers lives. I personally know quite a few soldiers fighting in Afghanistan at the moment, and I can't comprehend how someone could risk these soldiers lives when they don't have the balls to go overseas and fight as well.
People ask, why are we in these wars still? Or why are we in these wars at all?
Well, the Afghanistan war is obvious: 9/11. If anyone believes we should not be fighting the Taliban then please remember the thousands of innocent people who were slaughtered in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania. Remember those families who were shattered with the news that a loved one was killed at work, or when flying home to see them.
For the people that immediately assume we are in Iraq for oil, we received (in the largest amount received from Iraq in the past 5 years) a little more than 4% of our oil from Iraq. You cannot argue that 4% of our imported oil is the reason we went in to Iraq. We went in to a) remove a terrible dictator from power, b) prevent massive numbers of Taliban fighters fleeing into Iraq to set up camps to train more people to attack the United States.
Why do the documents surrounding these wars, and THE ALLIES of the United States need to be revealed? What purpose does it serve?
Source for oil information: http://www.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_a.htm
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On April 26 2011 06:22 Envy01 wrote:
rs at all?
Well, the Afghanistan war is obvious: 9/11. If anyone believes we should not be fighting the Taliban then please remember the thousands of innocent people who were slaughtered in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania. Remember those families who were shattered with the news that a loved one was killed at work, or when flying home to see them.
Yeah, that completely unreliable information gathered by torturing an innocent person in Egypt that "confirmed" that those Taliban/Al-Queda were responsible was such a good reason to invade and still spend 120 billion dollars a year on the war in Afghanistan ALONE.
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On April 26 2011 06:22 Envy01 wrote:This is what I am confused about, why, in a war supported by the American people (the war in Afghanistan), the release of this information is even required. I don't understand why this information needs to be made public. Does it cause any direct harm to soldiers? Quite possibly. By describing troop movements, engagement tactics and other information not easily found, it could risk our soldiers lives. I personally know quite a few soldiers fighting in Afghanistan at the moment, and I can't comprehend how someone could risk these soldiers lives when they don't have the balls to go overseas and fight as well. People ask, why are we in these wars still? Or why are we in these wars at all? Well, the Afghanistan war is obvious: 9/11. If anyone believes we should not be fighting the Taliban then please remember the thousands of innocent people who were slaughtered in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania. Remember those families who were shattered with the news that a loved one was killed at work, or when flying home to see them. For the people that immediately assume we are in Iraq for oil, we received (in the largest amount received from Iraq in the past 5 years) a little more than 4% of our oil from Iraq. You cannot argue that 4% of our imported oil is the reason we went in to Iraq. We went in to a) remove a terrible dictator from power, b) prevent massive numbers of Taliban fighters fleeing into Iraq to set up camps to train more people to attack the United States. Why do the documents surrounding these wars, and THE ALLIES of the United States need to be revealed? What purpose does it serve? Source for oil information: http://www.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_a.htm
I think that there are some things that are more important than someone's life, and I personally think this is one of those cases. Exposing these documents gives tremendous insight into how our government is actually operating and even though the information has the potential to harm people, I think it is a necessary sacrifice.
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On April 26 2011 06:26 Fruscainte wrote:
Yeah, that completely unreliable information gathered by torturing an innocent person in Egypt that "confirmed" that those Taliban/Al-Queda were responsible was such a good reason to invade and still spend 120 billion dollars a year on the war in Afghanistan ALONE.
Bin Laden admitted to attacking the United States.
And I am not arguing for or against torture. We know it has happened, there is nothing that can be done about what happened in the past.
I think that there are some things that are more important than someone's life, and I personally think this is one of those cases. Exposing these documents gives tremendous insight into how our government is actually operating and even though the information has the potential to harm people, I think it is a necessary sacrifice.
What will change about how our government operates based on the release of these documents? And I respectfully disagree with the necessary sacrifice, I couldn't imagine telling someone's wife and child that their dad was killed due to a necessary sacrifice of releasing information regarding how America fights wars.
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EPT
