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On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe.
I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration.
"What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?"
- John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel
Well, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government.
I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia:
"Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?"
Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi.
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^^ I love you scouting overlord. I totally agree with all that. Sometimes you just have to do what no one wants to do
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Scouting overlord, it's not necessarily that I'm against torturing terrorists, as much as there being certain inherent problems with the information that comes from torture. Let's say I'm being tortured, but I don't know anything. I'm still going to be willing to tell you just about anything just to make the torture stop. Or let's say I've been trained to withstand torture and interrogation. I could lie to you but make it seem like you've finally broken me.
The information that comes from torture is spotty at best. And it will often come at the expense of innocent people. But, hey, torturing or murdering a few innocent people is no big deal. As long as it's no one you know personally.
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On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe. I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration. "What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" - John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal CounselWell, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government.
Two problems:
1. They're not hating the US for their freedom. That's propaganda you're being sold. They're hating the US for the meddling they have been doing and still are doing in the middle east purely in their own self-interest.
2. Torturing people, especially when you don't know if they're guilty or not, is the opposite of what a freedom-loving state should embrace. America isn't the land of the free, America is the land of the decieved. If you give up your ideals then what are you fighting for?
As for the quote - Maybe we should torture everyone? All over the world? I'm sure there's a few of them who are planning terrorist attacks! Oh wait, maybe everyone is too general. How about just the arabs? Hmm, no, that's not good either. Maybe we should look for people with previous criminal convictions? But... there's terrorists who have never commited any sort of crime before. Tricky, I guess we really should torture everyone.
On April 26 2011 02:57 shinosai wrote:
Scouting overlord, it's not necessarily that I'm against torturing terrorists, as much as there being certain inherent problems with the information that comes from torture. Let's say I'm being tortured, but I don't know anything. I'm still going to be willing to tell you just about anything just to make the torture stop. Or let's say I've been trained to withstand torture and interrogation. I could lie to you but make it seem like you've finally broken me.
The information that comes from torture is spotty at best. And it will often come at the expense of innocent people. But, hey, torturing or murdering a few innocent people is no big deal. As long as it's no one you know personally.
Oh, and this. A very important practical problem.
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I thought scouting overlord was being sarcastic. >_>
In any case, irrespective of the moral question of whether torture("enhanced interrogation") is is ethical, I don't believe it has proven itself effective via empirical means. It seems like a knee-jerk reaction to the serious problem of terrorism rather than a thought out, considered position.
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I'm pretty sure (or I hope) that scouting overlord is being sarcastic and just trolling.
I am frightened by the people agreeing with him though.
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Yes use TV to justify and support political views. Nothing absent there.
Bottom line is whatever has the most benefits for the things that matter is simply what should be done, morals be damned.
The bottom bottom line is that people shouldnt argue over subjective things. Rather embrace and enjoy.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe. I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration. "What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" - John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal CounselWell, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government. I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia: "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi.
This line of thought is disgusting. Torture is immoral, wrong, and even if you ignore both of those facts, it doesn't even bloody work. All it gets you is the quickest lie to get the pain to stop, and it's not an accepted technique for information gathering. And I love how you immediately blame it on liberal America, as if the nation is split between everyone who is liberal and everyone who is not. Christ, I wish people would start thinking before they open their damn mouths.
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On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe. I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration. "What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" - John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal CounselWell, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government. I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia: "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi.
Lol this is quality. Bravo.
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Scouting overlord/// almost trolled me buddy. Almost. Pretty sure you got at least a handful of people though.
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For those who live in other post-industrial first-world countries, don't fool yourself into thinking that your countries do not take part in different forms of torture if the crime calls for it. I do not support torture and never will, but it's ignorant to think that the US is the only society that takes part in it. I can see some of the methods being used if you are certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the suspect is in fact a terrorist. In this case, the information that he discloses could save thousands of lives (we have since learned the Al Qaeda had planned more attacks on the US, Europe, Asia and Africa... this affects ALL of us). But it not right to blindly use cruel methods to try to get information from someone who you do not even know is guilty (this has happened). It's not a black and white issue, and nothing ever is a black and white issue. Morality operates on a spectrum -- I'm sorry, but it's true.
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On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe. I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration. "What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" - John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal CounselWell, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government. I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia: "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi.
This is actually a masterfully written troll post, right? You're not serious, are you?
First off, let's just ignore all concerns dealing with legality as well as those of morality/ethics, founding principles of this nation, etc. Such arguments clearly hold no sway over one for whom the ends always justify the means.
Let's instead focus upon efficacy and practicality. Torture makes the target say whatever he/she thinks the interrogator(s) wants to hear in order to make the pain stop. Does what is said actually have any correlation with reality? Maybe. Sometimes. There is considerable debate among experts about this topic, to say the least. Torture is not (not yet anyway, you're not proposing we do R&D into more effective and brutal torture methods, are you?) some set of surefire methods to extract any and all pertinent information from an individual.
Moving away from efficacy, what about topics such as international image, push back from "squeamish" allies, and supplying ready made propaganda to terrorist recruiters? We don't exist in a vacuum after all; it has never been (and never will be) us or them. There are many forces and powers arrayed along a wide spectrum filling every spot leading from us to whomever is the opposition. Do you not think that our wholesale embrace of such methods might cause some of these powers to be less likely to support us in our various international escapades in the future? I hope you are not so naive to believe that we can always "go it alone", everyone else be damned. Furthermore, I find it immensely amusing that you would trumpet the Freedom!! (double exclamation marks, just for you) of our Great Free Republic while at the same time wholeheartedly embracing what is most certainly an un-free practice. Does that word (freedom) not ring the slightest bit hollow to your ears?
Finally, I would have Bauer prosecuted regardless of whether or not anyone was actually saved. The eventual outcome does not negate the path taken to reach it. That is why we have such things as due process, no? And yes, I (and I imagine a high percentage of the US population) would most certainly be against you.
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On April 26 2011 03:25 DragonDefonce wrote:
Scouting overlord/// almost trolled me buddy. Almost. Pretty sure you got at least a handful of people though.
You dont troll in such a serious topic ... you just dont, because it is impossible to be 100% sure that your sarcasm / trolling is recognized for what it is. I didnt get it and I think anyone who jokes about torture is an idiot. People who are serious about it are totally evil ... more evil than terrorists who blow up other people, because they are hiding behind law and try to sell those things as "good".
Modern torture doesnt end after the subject leaves Guantanamo. Many of the INNOCENT people have long term side effects but no one of the US government cares. Torture is wrong, whatever the reason.
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On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:
I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia:
"Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?"
Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi.
I thought the quote from Scalia was from The Onion so I searched for it and he actually said that for real...so the US Supreme Court Justice is basing it's decisions on fiction, nice to know.
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On April 26 2011 02:38 scouting overlord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:44 Latedi wrote:
Why is the torture needed? Normally jail is enough to keep people outside safe. I'll quote one of the leading intellectuals from our now-coveted Bush Administration. "What if, as the Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" - John Yoo, Department of Justice's Office of Legal CounselWell, if the liberal media and the American "public" had their way, the Terrorist leader would be greeted with open arms and given a sponge bath. They hate America and Freedom so much that they'd just let him do what he wants. Luckily not all Americans are so spineless. A true patriot understands that sometimes you have to torture a few people to save democracy. Jack Bauer doesn't let the "political correctness" crowd stop him from protecting Freedom, and nor should the U.S. government. I'll close this post with a quote one of the modern day heroes of our Great Free Republic, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia: "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" Well, are you? Are you with us, or against us? Semper Fi.
fucking genius rofl, gj^^ lol
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It's sarcasm, people. As demonstrated by this quote:
On April 25 2011 17:39 scouting overlord wrote:
Here's a press statement from Our Beneficiaries, the U.S. military industrial complex, condemning this illegal leak of highly 'sensitive' (please stop hurting its feelings, it's very sensitive) information.
It's the most epic kind of sarcasm, I wish I could write like that.
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Honestly, anyone stupid enough to think the US and international forces are in AFGHANISTAN purely for "their own purposes" is completely ill-informed. I suggest you read Pakistan's most acclaimed journalist and international adviser's Descent Into Chaos (Ahmed Rashid).
Fact of the matter is, "the region" (including the five tumultuous Central Asian states - most notably Pakistan/Afghanistan) requires direct international intervention and attention to mitigate disaster. The region is on course - and has been since the cold war - to become the most unstable hotbed for extremism, nuclear instability, and drug production. Afghanistan required intervention before 2001, as called for by leading intellectuals within Pakistan. The US had its own interests then, and ignored this advice. Only too late did the US and allies intervene, and with a completely incorrect "shock & awe" approach. Boots were not left on the ground in sufficient quantity and with proper purpose initially. Compounded by the subsequent FAILURE of an adventure and utter debacle in Iraq, US forces and geopolitical capital were stretched even more thinly.
And now? Now instead of facing $4-5 billion USD/year for 20-30 years to initiate and complete ample social, political, and economic reform, we face an exacerbated problem. No longer does 90% of the indigenous population in Afghanistan want international aid. The aid was botched. The intervention was a joke. There is a long, arduous journey ahead...that much is certain.
p.s. check out the book. It's very timely and I highly recommend everyone read it.
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On April 26 2011 03:36 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 03:25 DragonDefonce wrote:
Scouting overlord/// almost trolled me buddy. Almost. Pretty sure you got at least a handful of people though. You dont troll in such a serious topic ... you just dont, because it is impossible to be 100% sure that your sarcasm / trolling is recognized for what it is. I didnt get it and I think anyone who jokes about torture is an idiot. People who are serious about it are totally evil ... more evil than terrorists who blow up other people, because they are hiding behind law and try to sell those things as "good". Modern torture doesnt end after the subject leaves Guantanamo. Many of the INNOCENT people have long term side effects but no one of the US government cares. Torture is wrong, whatever the reason.
He attributed ridiculous quotes about the TV show 24 to a supreme court judge on the subject of torture, if you can't recognise that as sarcasm and a joke you really need to stop being such a sourpuss. Also what the hell are you doing trying to tell people what they "JUST DON'T DO" in a thread on the internet, I mean ignoring the fact that it wasn't trolling as much as pretty good satire on pro-torture proponents (and thus supporting your view as if that matters), you tell people not to do something and they'll do it more.
And seriously if stupid people misinterpret satire as truth, then that's a mark of quality of the satire and it's not like you can change their views if they're that remarkably stupid. Their views are formed by mediocre propagandists who sell shitty ideas to reactionaries who can't or don't want to ever actually think about anything.
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On April 26 2011 03:44 acker wrote:It's sarcasm, people. As demonstrated by this quote: Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:39 scouting overlord wrote:
Here's a press statement from Our Beneficiaries, the U.S. military industrial complex, condemning this illegal leak of highly 'sensitive' (please stop hurting its feelings, it's very sensitive) information.
It's the most epic kind of sarcasm, I wish I could write like that.
There is nothing that one can write or do on the internet (perhaps also offline as well) that can conclusively establish that person as a troll. Maybe he was being sarcastic, maybe not; the point is that there are people who do hold such views, and they are legion.
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EPT
