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Semtext
Germany287 Posts
and then again, oil. makes me want to live somewhere else. sad thing there are no more inhabitable planets at our disposal, but i understand that people would be fucking the others up as well pretty quickly, so therefore it is maybe best we stay on this one space-floating rock right here. | ||
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chickenhawk
Portugal339 Posts
You cannot arbitrarily kill someone in captivity. Torture requires captivity. Thus, neither is acceptable in that circumstance, even in a time of war. I know that Geneva convection does not allowed both of them. What I meant is that I do undersant that a country needs information in a war, and that torture is away of getting that information. History is written by the winner and the living, do I find torture unfair? Yes, but so is live. If a piece of information can save a life of a friend, i will not mind to close my eyes for abit. Carpet bombing is more letal, but everyone acept it has an act of war. Why not torture? | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
On April 26 2011 07:46 chickenhawk wrote: I know that Geneva convection does not allowed both of them. What I meant is that I do undersant that a country needs information in a war, and that torture is away of getting that information. History is written by the winner and the living, do I find torture unfair? Yes, but so is live. If a piece of information can save a life of a friend, i will not mind to close my eyes for abit. Carpet bombing is more letal, but everyone acept it has an act of war. Why not torture? Holy shit, it's been shown time and time again that torture creates REALLY UNRELIABLE INFORMATION. People with the actual information being looked for can still lie, people with NO information will make something up just to make the torture stop. It's funny that you say torture is ok in the name of freedom. What if the FBI started capturing people in the US without due process (the court system) and tortured them on suspicion of some kind of law-breaking? What you pro-torturers are essentially saying is that it is OK to completely break someone else's freedom in order to protect your own.... which is entirely hypocritical... stop pretending that you are 'pro freedom' and more or less just admit that you are scared shitless of life and want to abuse your status/power over others to further keep your status/power. | ||
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mike1290
United States88 Posts
On April 26 2011 06:30 Envy01 wrote: Bin Laden admitted to attacking the United States. And I am not arguing for or against torture. We know it has happened, there is nothing that can be done about what happened in the past. What will change about how our government operates based on the release of these documents? And I respectfully disagree with the necessary sacrifice, I couldn't imagine telling someone's wife and child that their dad was killed due to a necessary sacrifice of releasing information regarding how America fights wars. These are but a few of the documents that wikileaks has released so far. The scope of this information is vast and not strictly limited to fighting wars. I realize that this seems so difficult and unfair for an individual in this situation, and that is why many people have so much trouble with these types of decisions. The reality is that people are going to be hurt no matter what happens and to think that these problems can be fixed without any sacrifice is naive at best. | ||
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redviper
Pakistan2333 Posts
On April 26 2011 06:22 Envy01 wrote: This is what I am confused about, why, in a war supported by the American people (the war in Afghanistan), the release of this information is even required. I don't understand why this information needs to be made public. Does it cause any direct harm to soldiers? Quite possibly. By describing troop movements, engagement tactics and other information not easily found, it could risk our soldiers lives. I personally know quite a few soldiers fighting in Afghanistan at the moment, and I can't comprehend how someone could risk these soldiers lives when they don't have the balls to go overseas and fight as well. People ask, why are we in these wars still? Or why are we in these wars at all? Well, the Afghanistan war is obvious: 9/11. If anyone believes we should not be fighting the Taliban then please remember the thousands of innocent people who were slaughtered in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania. Remember those families who were shattered with the news that a loved one was killed at work, or when flying home to see them. For the people that immediately assume we are in Iraq for oil, we received (in the largest amount received from Iraq in the past 5 years) a little more than 4% of our oil from Iraq. You cannot argue that 4% of our imported oil is the reason we went in to Iraq. We went in to a) remove a terrible dictator from power, b) prevent massive numbers of Taliban fighters fleeing into Iraq to set up camps to train more people to attack the United States. Why do the documents surrounding these wars, and THE ALLIES of the United States need to be revealed? What purpose does it serve? Source for oil information: http://www.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_a.htm If America is torturing people in the course of this war than this information should be made public for sure. This is a black mark on your entire nation you realize that right? In a 100 years american school children will read about how misguided this war has been. Torture, attacks on civilians, kill teams, drone attacks. The war in afghanistan has gotten so ugly now, even military personnel cannot stand it. Those are the people releasing this "classified" information. Also how in the hell were those "taliban fighters" going to get to iraq? Teleportation as far as I know hasn't been invented and Iraq doesn't border Afghanistan and "taliban" don't exactly have planes. Remember those families who were shattered with the news that a loved one was killed at work, or when flying home to see them. Almost weekly I get news of more people in Pakistan being murdered by drone attacks, not once in a decade - once a month atleast. What about those familes who are shattered by the news of their loved ones dying? What about the family of children murdered by Nato forces (so bad that Patreaus had to apologize)? What about the families of the people killed by bombing of kabul even in 2002? Heck what about the family of taliban fighting to repel an invader in their country? So yeah go ahead and torture and go ahead and defend the torture but don't expect to get any sympathy by shouting 9/11 like Guliani. America has run through the residual sympathy from 9/11 by their actions in the last decade. | ||
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Envy01
15 Posts
On April 26 2011 07:59 mike1290 wrote: These are but a few of the documents that wikileaks has released so far. The scope of this information is vast and not strictly limited to fighting wars. I realize that this seems so difficult and unfair for an individual in this situation, and that is why many people have so much trouble with these types of decisions. The reality is that people are going to be hurt no matter what happens and to think that these problems can be fixed without any sacrifice is naive at best. Thank you for being civil, I have seen too many people freak out and get very rude over stuff like this. I actually haven't even glanced at the documents themselves. I will agree that I am biased in this situation, as a soon to be military member... and you are correct in the sense that no matter what these problems will not get fixed without sacrifice. I just think it could be handled in a different way. | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
I won't especially remember those in the WTC since there are many, many others to remember. Sadly, the media forgot them and they weren't the lucky citizens of the greates power in the world. Don't get me wrong, it's still a tragedy. But if this justifies torture, then pretty much everything does. Ps: and this is the horrible kind of thinking that turns ordinary people into monsters. If someone hurts a member of your family or country, it is NOT a reason to inflict a thousand times the pain they inflicted to them in return. By doing this you are no better - if not lower - than the agressor himself. It's the reaction of a spoiled and overprotective, hating group. You slapped my kid? I'll rape your mom and burn your family alive while I eat your fingers in front of you! ... man, he just slapped your kid. | ||
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catamorphist
United States297 Posts
On April 26 2011 06:22 Envy01 wrote: People ask, why are we in these wars still? Or why are we in these wars at all? Well, the Afghanistan war is obvious: 9/11. If anyone believes we should not be fighting the Taliban then please remember the thousands of innocent people who were slaughtered in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania. Remember those families who were shattered with the news that a loved one was killed at work, or when flying home to see them... Why do the documents surrounding these wars, and THE ALLIES of the United States need to be revealed? What purpose does it serve? ![[image loading]](http://www.prosebeforehos.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/civilian-casualties-iraq-afghanistan-911.png) Is the best way to remember those thousands of innocent people to drown them out with a few million more? We inflict a 9/11 on Afghanistan every year. | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On April 26 2011 07:27 Semtext wrote: And Bin Laden has died since, or really cant be arsed to get in front of any camera anymore. god, don't anybody realize there is no reason for the USA to be going to war against any 3rd world country? and then again, oil. makes me want to live somewhere else. sad thing there are no more inhabitable planets at our disposal, but i understand that people would be fucking the others up as well pretty quickly, so therefore it is maybe best we stay on this one space-floating rock right here. It'd be absolutely fascinating if the people who repeat the tired myth that "America went to war for oil!" could actually provide evidence of that. American oil companies are a distant third in ownership of Iraqi oilfields, America buys Iraqi oil at OPEC prices (yes, I know OPEC does not directly set prices, but its power over the export market for petroleum products gives it a significant ability to manipulate prices), and, moreover, Iraqi oil is and always was of rather minor concern to the United States, especially with Bush's energy policy focusing on sub-Saharan Africa as the region from which oil imports should be acquired. On April 26 2011 08:30 catamorphist wrote: Is the best way to remember those thousands of innocent people to drown them out with a few million more? A few million? Don't be foolish. | ||
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Envy01
15 Posts
I am not advocating the torture of anyone. It is an incredibly slippery slope that I refuse to go down. You mentioned the families of civilians in the war zone, many of these people dislike the Taliban as well, they just have no means of removing them from the area. The Taliban is a group of big bullies to the people in Afghanistan, by forcing them to pay the Taliban for "protection" which basically is to prevent them from being attacked by the Taliban themselves. I am terribly sorry for the family of every single civilian killed in every war ever fought. I wish we could simply put two armies out in the middle of nowhere and let them fight as to protect civilians. Then you mention the families of the Taliban. Perhaps you don't understand what these Mujahideen are fighting for. They WANT to die, they believe that it is their religious calling to fight. That is why these people attacked in the first place. Did us invading create harsh feelings with some religious extremists in Afghanistan? Absolutely. But that is a religious issue i dont feel warrants discussion in this thread. | ||
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redviper
Pakistan2333 Posts
And why should the families of the taliban be considered any less than the families of American soldiers who also volunteered to go fight in a foreign country? As far as I know the Taliban weren't responsible for 9/11, they were destroyed for allowing Al-Qaida to exist in their land - after the US refused to give evidence to turn them over. Should the US have gone after Al-Qaida? Sure, I can't argue against that. Should the US have pushed regime change in Afghanistan? Hell no. And once regime change had been forced on the people of Afghanistan (who btw hate americans a hell of a lot more and the current karzai government as much as the taliban) the US should have gotten out of there. Was there a rational reason to escalate the war in Afghanistan and extend it to Pakistan? Was there a real rational reason to invade Iraq? Who really is the aggressor now? Also calling the taliban bullies is so passe. They were the government of Afghanistan. Were they awesome people? No, but you don't know that because you never actually dealt with them. Those of us who did actually have a real reason to hate the taliban and even we would not support this kind of war in Afghanistan. As much as I abhor the taliban I don't want them dead and I definitely don't want them dead in an orgy of uncontrolled violence that takes innocent people down with them and forces an entire generation to grow up in a war torn land. And even if the war is supported that doesn't mean torture should be allowed. If the military is hiding torture they should (the entire chain of command all the way up to the president) should face the consequence. You know what americans did to japanese officers who allowed torture after ww2? Executed them for waterboarding. And your president approved the same technique and is walking free right now. | ||
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catamorphist
United States297 Posts
So, speaking of foolishness, your suggestion is apparently that the appropriate response for patriotic Americans upon experiencing 9/11 is to pursue Al-Qaeda by occupying Afghanistan and Iraq, causing this chart. Bearing that in mind, what do you think a patriotic Iraqi or Afghani's appropriate response towards America is after experiencing the casualties depicted on this chart? Feel free to take your best guess. Perhaps he should write an angry forum post, or vote in an election? | ||
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Elegy
United States1629 Posts
On April 26 2011 08:54 catamorphist wrote: So, speaking of foolishness, your suggestion is apparently that the appropriate response for patriotic Americans upon experiencing 9/11 is to pursue Al-Qaeda by occupying Afghanistan and Iraq, causing this chart. Bearing that in mind, what do you think a patriotic Iraqi or Afghani's appropriate response towards America is after experiencing the casualties depicted on this chart? Feel free to take your best guess. Perhaps he should write an angry forum post, or vote in an election? Huh? All I said, or clearly implied, was that nowhere near a "few million" have died, unless you are using ridiculous sensationalist figures with little or no basis in fact. | ||
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catamorphist
United States297 Posts
On April 26 2011 09:04 Elegy wrote: Huh? All I said, or clearly implied, was that nowhere near a "few million" have died, unless you are using ridiculous sensationalist figures with little or no basis in fact. I'm just asking you about your position. | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On April 26 2011 08:30 catamorphist wrote: Is the best way to remember those thousands of innocent people to drown them out with a few million more? We inflict a 9/11 on Afghanistan every year. The vast majority of those civilian casualties were not caused by the US. I'm not for the war either, but that chart leads the reader to believe that the US killed those civilians, which is just untrue. Yes, we killed some, but nowhere near the 94% the chart says. I would bet the US is to blame for less than 2%. The other 92% were killed by the rampant sectarian violence following the fall of Saddam Hussein. edit: Screwed up my quoting. | ||
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BabyGiraldo
United States135 Posts
On April 26 2011 06:30 mike1290 wrote: I think that there are some things that are more important than someone's life, and I personally think this is one of those cases. Exposing these documents gives tremendous insight into how our government is actually operating and even though the information has the potential to harm people, I think it is a necessary sacrifice. Pretty easy to make that call when it's not your life on the line. | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On April 26 2011 10:26 Millitron wrote: The vast majority of those civilian casualties were not caused by the US. I'm not for the war either, but that chart leads the reader to believe that the US killed those civilians, which is just untrue. Yes, we killed some, but nowhere near the 94% the chart says. I would bet the US is to blame for less than 2%. The other 92% were killed by the rampant sectarian violence following the fall of Saddam Hussein. edit: Screwed up my quoting. Come on now Mili, you know some asshole is going to write that off with "NONE OF THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THE US WASN'T THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE." Which is true. But then hey, it's war. | ||
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oldgregg
New Zealand1176 Posts
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On April 26 2011 06:30 Envy01 wrote: And I am not arguing for or against torture. We know it has happened, there is nothing that can be done about what happened in the past. Would you support paying out restitution to those we've tortured, or releasing detainees we tortured into confession? I'm not exactly sure of this "if it's the Taliban's family, it's ok" argument is, either. Sounds like an absurd double standard. Unless, of course, you're fine with the Taliban bombing the families of US soldiers over here in the USA. Which I'm pretty sure you'd classify as terrorism. | ||
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Envy01
15 Posts
On April 26 2011 10:45 acker wrote: Would you support paying out restitution to those we've tortured, or releasing detainees we tortured into confession? I'm not exactly sure of this "if it's the Taliban's family, it's ok" argument is, either. Sounds like an absurd double standard. Unless, of course, you're fine with the Taliban bombing the families of US soldiers over here in the USA. Which I'm pretty sure you'd classify as terrorism. I honestly couldn't tell you what i would support in the sense of torture. I will admit that I am not 100% sure of what all went on, to how many and to what extent. (I DO know that it occurred, I know a few specific names etc...) I came across wrong in the "if its taliban its okay" thing, I was simply bringing to light the reason these soldiers fight. I read an excellent book written by Omar Nasiri (i believe thats right name, its an alias anyways) called Inside the Jihad. If anyone is interested in the reasoning behind the attacks, or why these people fight in general i would suggest they read it. I apologize if i came across as "if its taliban its okay" you are 100% correct, thats a double standard. | ||
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