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On January 21 2010 17:11 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2010 17:06 7Strife wrote:
In the video provided by Robinsa which displays the last memorable attempt to organize a peaceful movement against the government you can clearly see unarmed people being shot and killed for simply displaying their "discontent." When I see human beings that happen to reside within your borders speaking out for basic human rights and freedoms being killed it becomes a concern of mine and many others; whether you like it or not. Yes, it did indeed start out as a peaceful movement, with the intent of bettering Chinese society. Most people in china recognize that. However, this peaceful movement also outgrew itself. My grandparents, parents, and other relatives were all in Beijing during that. What happened was not a peaceful march on Washington like in the USA civil rights movement. What happened was a few students calling for rights around the city, and hoards of people taking this as an opportunity to riot, steal, loot, and kill. In a country with such a huge population density, chaos spreads quickly and is difficult to contain. For a Chinese citizen whose house got broken into and his properties looted because some other people decided to protest about something he doesn't care about, he becomes angry and does NOT want these protests, whatever their intent, to continue, because they're bringing him only harm. Again, it's about the needs of the many versus the needs of the few.
The desire of the masses doesn't out weight the few. It doesn't matter if the whole population wants to gas the Jews; it still isn't right.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On January 21 2010 17:15 7Strife wrote:
The desire of the masses doesn't out weight the few. It doesn't matter if the whole population wants to gas the Jews; it still isn't right.
What's "right" or "wrong" is vague enough that it doesn't factor into the concerns of the Chinese. If everyone in China wanted to gas all the Jews in China, it will happen. If they don't, it won't happen. that's all there is to it.
Morality and what is "right" and "wrong" are arbitrary constraints, subject to change depending on the population in question. Vegetarians consider eating animals to be wrong, yet many people still do it. Should everyone stop eating meat because a minority thinks so? Ultimately, your beliefs can only govern your own actions (provided, of course, that it does not interfere with others in a detrimental way. If it does, it no longer becomes your own actions), and this is all the more true in China. If your belief happens to coincide with the majority opinion, good for you. If it does not, there's honestly not much you can do about it.
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You know what
Chinese people really dont give a shit most of the time. Sometimes the government does stuff out of order (like most governments, including western ones, don't give me shit that the US doesn't do stupid stuff all the time) and then people will kick up a ruckus
But the god damned vast majority is just racist western reporting obsessed with launching some crappy propaganda campaign against chinese people. I hate it and it drives me insane
Most chinese people don't give a SHIT about all the western media complaining about "human rights" and this and that and "china evil" because it is always taken completely out of perspective
Human rights are just as bad or worse in western countries. Honestly i see articles like this as just a form of blatant xenophobia and racism
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On January 21 2010 17:33 BrTarolg wrote:
You know what
Chinese people really dont give a shit most of the time. Sometimes the government does stuff out of order (like most governments, including western ones, don't give me shit that the US doesn't do stupid stuff all the time) and then people will kick up a ruckus
But the god damned vast majority is just racist western reporting obsessed with launching some crappy propaganda campaign against chinese people. I hate it and it drives me insane
Most chinese people don't give a SHIT about all the western media complaining about "human rights" and this and that and "china evil" because it is always taken completely out of perspective
Human rights are just as bad or worse in western countries. Honestly i see articles like this as just a form of blatant xenophobia and racism
I agree, all governments do shitty stuff. Most of them do however get criticism for it.
Criticising a system can't be racist. It would be like saying that critizising the war in Iraq would be racism towards americans. I do however think that not writing about unjustices is stupid.
I don't get very upset by the articles at all but I always end up amazed when the "China can't do anything wrong" crowd arrives to blame it on propaganda and racism without providing a single argument to the discussion. China is a rising super power and some people expect it not to be critizised and written about?
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You act as if we are "wrong" to tell Chinese what they should do (because we are not a citizen, etc.) but then blatantly tell us what we should do. Just shows how flawed your logic is; and your capacity for being selfishly motivated.
Remember, as you said...
Morality and what is "right" and "wrong" are arbitrary constraints
You could defend that with anything. I could rape and pillage a village of children then go on a rant and tell everyone to think out of the box a little like you.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On January 21 2010 18:03 7Strife wrote:
You could defend that with anything. I could rape and pillage a village of children then go on a rant and tell everyone to think out of the box a little like you.
You could, but because no one else will agree with you, that won't get you anywhere except life in jail.
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I'm assuming this is only for minors right?
or.. everyone?
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It's an interesting question.
Why can't Chinese protest and freely express their collective frustration at the government?
Which deserves a complicated answer but the crux of the matter is:
People understand traditions, they understand the need for order; However, they do not understand the rule of law.
Note, the people, not individuals, not the intellectuals and as a collective, the society works by having these ancient and fundamental rules in place for the continuation of the Chinese nation.
Tradition dictates a strong central authority. Tradition dictates that when that authority is ineffective, the people will struggle to overthrow it.
The may fourth movement in 1917 was an example of this. When the central authority can not act on behalf of the collective, people took to the streets. It ultimately came to nothing in substance but laid the ground for violent struggles later on.
The problem with China and Chinese society in general is the lack of power sharing and lack of a legal framework that actually works.
The first problem, lack of power sharing is unique to China and its history. A decentralized China is weak as states and regions competes for dominance. What is the concern of Shandong to people in far south? Every successful Chinese dynasties began with a powerful central authority ruling with often cruel and unforgiving suppression.
The second problem, as I've mentioned before, as it stands, modern China still lack a recognized and appreciated legal authority. People understands the emperor's laws, or rather a set of rules that forbids them to do this or that.
they don't understand how law can benefit them except maybe the vague definition that laws exists to make society function.
That's how the populace sees it, that's how the Chinese government understands it. Unlike a democratic country, China do not have institution for smooth self correction. The government simply do not function in this way, the political structure do not adjust itself for popular demand as popular opinion in the state's opinion is often the wrong one.
It's the old China thinking, the ruling party sees any expression of dissatisfaction as a challenge to it's power and it's legitimacy as the ruling party come from a populace that accepts the compromise that a strong and effective government is better than anything else.
1989 protests failed because of this. The western world saw this as an atrocity, the Chinese saw this as a harsh but necessary tragedy. The people do not weep for the course of the dead students, they weep because they let a bunch of naive youths kill themselves.
That's all changing though, even at snail's pace. The urban and educated class who appreciates western values is on the rise.
In 20 years, the remnants of feudal China and its mentality will be replaced by them. The only question remains, can China grow itself into a suitable society in time.
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it's just an excuse in order to control information. It's not a word filter that's gonna stop men to jack off.
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Haduken, great post. Very interesting to hear, it coincides very well with my overall impression of these things. Especially considering that every time there's a thread on China here, some guy (usually from China) comes along and says something like "yeah, that's totally just western bias", even though it clearly isn't. Deprivation of freedom is deprivation of freedom, wherever you are, and the Chinese government have shown they are not interested in discussion on any terms but exclusively their own. Which makes it clear that China is in the news for the same reasons North Korea would be if we knew what ever even happened there.
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On January 21 2010 14:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2010 14:03 Shizuru~ wrote:On January 21 2010 13:57 lazz wrote:
LOL this is just an antispam measure and all you guys are going on about big brother and 1984 lololol did u read the article? China Mobile, one of the nation’s largest cellular providers, reported that text messages would automatically be scanned for “key words” provided by the police, according to China Daily, a state-controlled English-language newspaper. Messages will be deemed “unhealthy” if they violate undisclosed criteria established by the central government, the newspaper said. i'm sure the government and police are doing this to keep spammers under control as if they've got too much free times on their hands, amirite? Because obviously this one article written form a western perspective is the end all be all on this issue. How could Iazz have been so blind? I guess we all owe you a heartfelt apology in light of the knowledge that reading this short NY Times article has, in fact, made you an expert on this particular subject. Do accept our sincerest apologies.
r u really that retarded that u couldn't even read properly what i have posted? judging by ur comments i doubt that u do not have the intelligence to properly comprehend 2 simple paragraphs. but are intentionally debunking any valid arguments by personal attacks, sarcastic remarks and blind denial.
if u could actually provide a constructive and objective arguments based on the topic of the thread people might actually take u seriously.
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i wish they did this in holland
sick of all those goddamn porn spam texts
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interesting, that never happens in america
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go go gadget communism
I have a friend over there who says people are sick of the governments bullshit. Revolution always happens when things get better.. not at their worst. Don't be surprised if there's a coo in the next half a decade.
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I think it's great. Hell, I already hate these porn spams to my email already of "see my webcam!" etc, imagine getting that crap on your phone too! >.<
On January 21 2010 17:15 7Strife wrote:
The desire of the masses doesn't out weight the few. It doesn't matter if the whole population wants to gas the Jews; it still isn't right.
Joke? The idea of democracy is built upon "majority rules"! Or ... supposedly *coughs election of 2000*.
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On January 22 2010 00:43 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2010 17:15 7Strife wrote:
The desire of the masses doesn't out weight the few. It doesn't matter if the whole population wants to gas the Jews; it still isn't right. Joke? The idea of democracy is built upon "majority rules"! Or ... supposedly *coughs election of 2000*.
The word "democracy" does not appear in our Constitution.
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Does OP know what Pedo means?
Cause it doesn't look like it.
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On January 21 2010 19:47 edahl wrote:
Haduken, great post. Very interesting to hear, it coincides very well with my overall impression of these things. Especially considering that every time there's a thread on China here, some guy (usually from China) comes along and says something like "yeah, that's totally just western bias", even though it clearly isn't. Deprivation of freedom is deprivation of freedom, wherever you are, and the Chinese government have shown they are not interested in discussion on any terms but exclusively their own. Which makes it clear that China is in the news for the same reasons North Korea would be if we knew what ever even happened there.
That's because there clearly is bias. Western media does not cover both sides of the issue for pretty much any topic regarding China.
The thing is, haduken is right. There are many problems with China and its government. The difference between haduken and pretty much everybody else that criticizes China however, is that he actually knows what he's talking about. I'm not saying this because he has the word China next to his name, I'm saying this because he actually demonstrates an understanding of the social, cultural, and political climate of China, something which posts such as
On January 21 2010 15:05 Robinsa wrote:Hilarious that people actually belive that it's a law to prevent spam. They could have got a legislation similar to those implemented in the US or Europe. If they have to create the law with "undisclosed criteras" it's obvious to me that they got something that they dont want to show. That people in China say that it's nothing to be worried about doesnt suprise me the least. They are so fed with this bullshit from childhood that they actually belive it, Reminds of when I heard some friends arguing and when I aked them what was going on all the chinese guys pointed at the taiwanese guy and said "He says that Taiwan doesnt belong to China!!". Not that it's any proof of anything I've said previously, but I think it's a nice anecdote.  Also, I belive the article should say "It's a part of their campaign to regulate speech". Now, let the flame war begin.
or
On January 21 2010 15:37 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
here we go with the china defense rofl
NOTHING BAD HAPPENS HERE GUYS
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On January 22 2010 00:42 Tfact_rats wrote:
go go gadget communism
I have a friend over there who says people are sick of the governments bullshit. Revolution always happens when things get better.. not at their worst. Don't be surprised if there's a coo in the next half a decade.
clearly do not. I don't think anyone here that defends the Chinese government really thinks that it's perfect and can do no wrong, but it just comes off that way because all of their posts concerning China inevitably are posts explaining why the people criticizing China really have no clue what they're talking about. It doesn't help that so many people buy into the image portrayed by western media where the Chinese are a clueless brainwashed lot with no freedoms. Obvious solution is for them to adopt western policies and ideals! Freedom! Democracy!
Edit: Regarding the original article, I'm all for less spam. Would you (Americans) argue that it's somebody's constitutional right to send you spam e-mails? Seems like the same thing to me. As for monitoring text messages, I'm not going to pretend the US Gov't doesn't monitor my texts as well looking for keywords that might indicate I'm a terrorist. If you're not an enemy of the state, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. If you are, I hope for your sake you're smart enough not to use such obvious means to communicate.
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What's the deal with the title change?
Why is someone making this about pedophiles instead of the general censorship that it is...?
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On January 21 2010 18:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2010 18:03 7Strife wrote:
You could defend that with anything. I could rape and pillage a village of children then go on a rant and tell everyone to think out of the box a little like you. You could, but because no one else will agree with you, that won't get you anywhere except life in jail.
You get a life in jail because morality isn't arbitrary. Hence his point.
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EPT
