EPTEVE Corporation - Page 1622
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Mandini
United States1717 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34491 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13956 Posts
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Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
This is really putting a strain on small gang, and to be frank there is becoming a larger and larger barrier to entry. Doing the 'sick 10v50' thing is becoming more and more difficult unless you are trying to squeeze every little advantage you can out of the current meta. At the current rate, things are just sliding down hill. It is very obvious that CCP has no interest in projection / kiting. Very few hulls are bonsed towards. The ships that are bonused towards it- have so few mids that it becomes a big chore trying to shove them into a position they were not originally designed to fill. At the end of the day, small gang / solo / kiting is a very small niche within the world that is eve. The average eve player doesn't undersatnd it, and CCP is just as horrible. Players hate small gang, and they hate kiting. Most can't see how wonderfully complex this game is- and assume that their understanding of the game is perfect. There for many of them create false ideas about space ships, and cannot understand when they get their assess handed to them. So they blame everything but themselves. Approach F1 should always work. A good fight is wehere both ships are honerably at 0 not moving, shooting at each other. In regards to marauders. They should make them into PvP beasts. The idea that people will be flying them all of the time will be a joke. If that were true, people should only be fly Machs- but that is not the case. Price is a huge barrier to many people, and frankly is what is going to be setting apart the T2 BS. Tier 3 BS are still really good. I will promise you that people will not stop flying abbadons / rhoks for fleets. I think that the game could do with more Machs. AThey are great content generators, and are a blast to fly. | ||
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Ueberlisk
Finland455 Posts
On August 02 2013 03:39 Ramiel wrote: Its not that they are killing solo / small gang. But what they are doing is suffocating it slowly. There have been many, many changes that have happened over the last few years that have been creating small insults. All of these are going to be adding up, and frankly are going to push it beyond the breaking point one day. It really is not a laughing matter that all of the hatch / good pilots are flying hyper linked, snaked, and drugged all of the time. Granted this is not the only way to fly, but if you are not incorporating those 3 elements into your play style, your engagement profile is going to be very very small. This is really putting a strain on small gang, and to be frank there is becoming a larger and larger barrier to entry. Doing the 'sick 10v50' thing is becoming more and more difficult unless you are trying to squeeze every little advantage you can out of the current meta. At the current rate, things are just sliding down hill. It is very obvious that CCP has no interest in projection / kiting. Very few hulls are bonsed towards. The ships that are bonused towards it- have so few mids that it becomes a big chore trying to shove them into a position they were not originally designed to fill. At the end of the day, small gang / solo / kiting is a very small niche within the world that is eve. The average eve player doesn't undersatnd it, and CCP is just as horrible. Players hate small gang, and they hate kiting. Most can't see how wonderfully complex this game is- and assume that their understanding of the game is perfect. There for many of them create false ideas about space ships, and cannot understand when they get their assess handed to them. So they blame everything but themselves. Approach F1 should always work. A good fight is wehere both ships are honerably at 0 not moving, shooting at each other. In regards to marauders. They should make them into PvP beasts. The idea that people will be flying them all of the time will be a joke. If that were true, people should only be fly Machs- but that is not the case. Price is a huge barrier to many people, and frankly is what is going to be setting apart the T2 BS. Tier 3 BS are still really good. I will promise you that people will not stop flying abbadons / rhoks for fleets. I think that the game could do with more Machs. AThey are great content generators, and are a blast to fly. mach is pretty horrid nowdays. fly a talos or nado. | ||
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DiracMonopole
United States1555 Posts
On August 02 2013 03:23 DefMatrixUltra wrote: They're nerfing the effectiveness of nanogang links and buffing logi. I'm not sure what conclusion I was supposed to draw that was different, but I have been blinded by my prejudice and knowledge of numbers. Nerf to logi - armor and siege links got nerfed, with corresponding buffs to local tanks, but no such buffs to remote reps | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
Massive success. /edit - On August 02 2013 05:45 DiracMonopole wrote: Nerf to logi - armor and siege links got nerfed, with corresponding buffs to local tanks, but no such buffs to remote reps You're right, I read it incorrectly that remote reps were getting the buff as well. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
BBQ FTW > fountain seems pretty nice GonRin > spuer blob GonRin > 300 cynabal | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
slicer-bution and his loki squire take on the world: | ||
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
On August 02 2013 05:45 DiracMonopole wrote: Nerf to logi - armor and siege links got nerfed, with corresponding buffs to local tanks, but no such buffs to remote reps The problem is, buffing local rep is buffing brawling fits, and brawling fits are awful for solo, because you'll just get dogpiled on The only viable things for solo are fits able to dictate range. CCP not playing their own game, nothing new. I'm very happy about the link changes, though. Being a solo player without using them is a pain. And having massive bonuses without risking any ISK (you invest it, but if you engage mostly in small gang, the probability to loose your T3 boosters is ridiculously low). The changes also reduce the prerequisite to get into it since T3s now have bonuses to 3 types of links, you probably can live with only one. In regards to marauders. They should make them into PvP beasts. The idea that people will be flying them all of the time will be a joke. If that were true, people should only be fly Machs- but that is not the case. Price is a huge barrier to many people, and frankly is what is going to be setting apart the T2 BS. Tier 3 BS are still really good. I will promise you that people will not stop flying abbadons / rhoks for fleets. I think that the game could do with more Machs. AThey are great content generators, and are a blast to fly. Machs have pretty much the same tank other BSes have. Even less if shield tanked. To extend it a little, none of the pirate battleships have what it take to be a core fleet ship. They have amazing utility bonuses, but have the same tank most BSes have, or even less tank. Too easy to kill for their price. But the real problem is supply. The CFC tried using a navy BS doctrine (tempest fleet issue), but as soon as they welped one fleet, they started exhausting the supply really hard and were forced to change to something else. Pirate BSes probably have even lower supply. Marauders, in comparison, can be mass produced, even if it's costly. And will probably end up tankier than standard BSes, so could end up well suited for fleet warfare. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
The problem is, buffing local rep is buffing brawling fits, and brawling fits are awful for solo, because you'll just get dogpiled on The only viable things for solo are fits able to dictate range. CCP not playing their own game, nothing new. that's not strictly true. One of the big issues with brawling fits is that fact remote rep is so strong (as you cannot do anything to kill an orbiting RR ship while being hardtackled). *fuck links* I can think of only one player off the top of my head that releases actually interesting >frig pvp video content that doesn't fly linked (Kovorix). Given the engagement profile of most players in this game, roaming samurai-style often means resigning yourself to a high percentage of "no-chance" engages. With my linked caracals, here is a representative sample of what formed up to fight my single caracal (whether they knew about my links is unknown). ** Arazu, Caracal, Condor, Harpy, Crusader, Nexequror (more arriving as I died, including another Arazu)* +POS claymore links ** Arazu, Rapier, Cynabal, Artynado, Rook, 5 unknown ships (decided to log) ** 2x Sabre, 2x Drake, Jaguar, Vengeance, Pilgrim Corax* ** Brutix Oracle SyFi 2x Rapier Eris Thorax Condor Scimitar (died to this) ** 2x Cynabal Falcon Hawk Deimos Wolf Stiletto Taranis (decided to log) ** Caracal Myrmidon Rapier Curse (I got smacked for running from that shitshow)~ ** Starred fights were the ones I felt were even remotely engageable with my links. Even if those two fights, if I commit to kill something without links I die 100% assuming all players involved know how to approach F1 and activate all modules. I think that such gangs are exactly what you will find across the vast majority of nullsec (some regions may be better). And having massive bonuses without risking any ISK SP is also a mechanic that allows you to have massive bonus with no risk. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34491 Posts
On August 02 2013 15:34 419 wrote: probably the best sets of frigate footage since dishonour. slicer-bution and his loki squire take on the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqB-2T3Gqik This is really good. | ||
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artynko
Slovakia86 Posts
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
That's not strictly true. One of the big issues with brawling fits is that fact remote rep is so strong (as you cannot do anything to kill an orbiting RR ship while being hardtackled). Making you more tanky means more space for damage (if you keep the same tank), so eh, that's good to take. Won't change everything, but it's a little help. Especially for armor since it will work on AAR. I like the changes, but I'm not sure buffing local rep is the way to go, nerfing remote would be smarter (because if you buff local rep too much, you mess up solo completely). With the changes to the basic links, will there be a viable way how to get a link character relatively fast now (month or two) ? I would be very happy with something like 30km point, don't really care about any of the other ones at this point. The only difference is that now you only need 1 character to have a ton of different bonus choices. But anyway, skirmish was the only "mandatory" link (I play without, but it's a real pain to do so and really reduce the range of what I can fly/engage). 3 out of 4 T3s now have bonuses to skirmish. But you still need to train one character as long as before. And it will be less effective. Or you could take a command ship, but that's even more training. I can think of only one player off the top of my head that releases actually interesting >frig pvp video content that doesn't fly linked (Kovorix). Given the engagement profile of most players in this game, roaming samurai-style often means resigning yourself to a high percentage of "no-chance" engages. With my linked caracals, here is a representative sample of what formed up to fight my single caracal (whether they knew about my links is unknown). The problem with that is the vicious circle links created. I know a ton of people have links, so I either don't engage or blob them with friends since I know I can't win without (yeah, let's kill a condor flying at 7km/s and tackling at 40km :<). By doing so, you create less solo and more blobbing of people. And often, we end up blobbing people without links because we fear they would have some. So people playing solo feel forced to use links. The other problem with links is risk. Links involve no additional risk in term of ISK, but offer a massive reward. You won't loose them, even if you loose. I'm completely fine with people flying more expensive ships or putting deadspace modules on them to get an edge. Because they can loose them. But links just sit in your pos (now orbiting it) and give you a passive bonus. The last problem is their use. I totally support people using them to have a chance to win outnumbered engagements. But I see tons of people using them in FW plexes just to farm people without links trying to get an interesting engagement. By using links to fight outnumbered, you also destroy any hope of people trying to get a fair fight without them. So you'll be more and more outnumbered. I've stopped trying to 1v1 and I always bring a friend, because most real figths (not farmers kills or 30 days newbies) I get, I end up against someone with links and get horribly smashed. Simple fix would be to remove link effects in FW plexes, because it's the place where they're the most obnoxious (I think it drives a lot of people away from pvp because their first experiences were a few pvp engagements in plexes against someone with links). The whole point is to get fights around your size, but a T3 cruiser sitting outside adding massive bonuses is fine? By limiting the change to that, people could still use links for engagements where they're outnumbered in space, where it's interesting for the game to have links. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
I don't think there is any good solution to be honest. If I were you, I just wouldn't engage anyone I knew to be linked. There are people that will honor 1v1s without links if that's your thing (Tuskers, they live in the Hevrice area). What's your ingame name? The other problem with links is risk. Links involve no additional risk in term of ISK, but offer a massive reward. You won't loose them, even if you loose. I'm completely fine with people flying more expensive ships or putting deadspace modules on them to get an edge. Because they can loose them. But links just sit in your pos (now orbiting it) and give you a passive bonus. there's a guy infamous for sitting in FW plexes with a cloaky bantam. and there is no risk. The cloaky bantam is out of corp and that is what matters. If people want to be e-sport-space-combat-dishonorable they will find a way to do so (no matter what, short of shutting down eve). There is no way to fix this, this is the nature of a game without objective matchmaking. EDIT: there is actually a good fix I can think of to the OGB issue, though of course :coding: Make link t3-assisted kills be denoted as such on killmails somehow | ||
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DiracMonopole
United States1555 Posts
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
If you want them removed from the game (level playing field), I can understand and agree with that completely. But in the meantime, all nerfing links does is empower blob play and decrease solo and small gang gamespace. All those guys you don't wanna tangle with because they use links? They still use them. They get less bonus out of them, but you are still way behind them in terms of the odds if you don't get links yourself. Going Few vs. Many in EVE with the current crop of ships requires links for a lot of ships - whether or not your opponents have them. There is a certain set of "you must be this high to nano" requirements a ship has that is based on metagame analysis and soft limits in ship stats. Many ships reach this with links but otherwise do not. There are all kinds of factors that affect this beyond just speed. Lock range, mass reduction, sensor strength etc. Some ships simply do not have workable stats of this nature without links. Sure, these very specific problems are things that could and should be spot-fixed to make sure that many (rather than few) ships are viable. But CCP has shown no real intention of fixing design problems of ships based on their utility in small gangs or solo play - they stick to nerfing titans because they can track carriers or whatever nonsense. I think it would be great if links were just straight-up removed from the game. There couldn't be a more level playing field where skill outshines other factors. But a lot of things would have to change for this to happen and the combat to still be fun. And those things probably will not happen soon. In the interim, links are something that clever players can use to reduce the inherent disadvantages of small gang and 1vMany play to increase the gamespace. | ||
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