EPTI would not go so far as to completely remove them, but I would force them to be on grid with the ships they boost. This makes it more dangerous and gives the other party a better way to asses enemy strength
EVE Corporation - Page 1623
| Forum Index > General Games |
|
Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
I would not go so far as to completely remove them, but I would force them to be on grid with the ships they boost. This makes it more dangerous and gives the other party a better way to asses enemy strength | ||
|
DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On August 03 2013 04:54 Skilledblob wrote: but the thing is that links are the reason why you get this player versus players gameplay that currently prevails. Could you explain what you mean by this? | ||
|
Warri
Germany3208 Posts
On August 03 2013 04:54 Skilledblob wrote: but the thing is that links are the reason why you get this player versus players gameplay that currently prevails. Links are not the solution to this, links are the reason imo. I would not go so far as to completely remove them, but I would force them to be on grid with the ships they boost. This makes it more dangerous and gives the other party a better way to asses enemy strength If they need to be on grid you cant multibox them effectively anymore. When you have 5 people and the enemy has 50, then you having to spend one player on being a linkboat hurts you more than the 50 guys. | ||
|
DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On August 03 2013 05:27 Warri wrote: If they need to be on grid you cant multibox them effectively anymore. When you have 5 people and the enemy has 50, then you having to spend one player on being a linkboat hurts you more than the 50 guys. On-grid links is probably the worst solution possible to links (worse than removing them entirely) for this reason - it benefits the group who already has the numerical advantage. What's funny is that I'm convinced CCP would implement on-grid links if they had the capability (they currently don't). | ||
|
Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
I feel that for the most part links are simply used as an excuse. People that hate them / blame them for not getting kills / failing solo + small gang do so because that way they can shift the blame on everything but themselves. The reality is, that currently a small gang / solo pilot should never be able to kill / fight a larger numbers of players. If the blob used their ships and fit them the way that we do here at TL, you would never stand a chance. However that is not the case 99% of the time. And people derp around in their ships, having come to the conclusion that they are pvp gods- and can learn no more from eve. Thise false hubris stops them from thinking that they could ever improve their own game play, so they look to bash anything / everything the small gang uses. 100MN tengus Links Nano faggatory 'Running away' Snakes Implants Drugs Dead Space / Faction Mods All of the above are common excuses, and frankly its pathetic. I wish that CCP or even half of the player base could come and really see how enjoyable and complex EvE PvP really is. Sadly I don't think that it will ever happen  | ||
|
Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
On August 03 2013 05:27 Warri wrote: If they need to be on grid you cant multibox them effectively anymore. When you have 5 people and the enemy has 50, then you having to spend one player on being a linkboat hurts you more than the 50 guys. but I mean that's the point isnt it? Having more people should in theory give you the advantage assuming that the ships used are of similar quality. the reason why links are important to small gang pvp is because a) it gives you the advantage over a horde of shit fits and boosts you so much that you can still win b) it improves your own ship so much that a pilot of the same skill level and fitting would never stand a chance and B is imo the reason why solo PvP almost never happens anymore. The idiots run around in hordes because they are just that. The good players fly around with linked, snaked etc ships to kill the idiots but at the same time they also make groups to be able to handle the groups of other linked ships. So in my mind it's a selfmade problem. the relatively easy availability of T3 links in my opinion opened the gates for this development. | ||
|
Nyvis
France284 Posts
The corner case where links allow you to fight blob is way overshadowed by the major case where it screws small gang vs small gang, at a point where the only thing remaining is either blob or super expensive link + pimped pod pvp. Because if you don't go into any of the two, you loose against both sides. | ||
|
Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:03 Nyvis wrote: The problem with "your" pvp is that it screw people who want to do small gang but don't want links/snakes/etc because by trying to fight the blob with more and more ways to get a bit of an advantage, you make the fight unwinnable for the people not using them, forcing them into blobbing too. So yes, links are the reason the game is in this state, not the answer to the problem. The corner case where links allow you to fight blob is way overshadowed by the major case where it screws small gang vs small gang, at a point where the only thing remaining is either blob or super expensive link + pimped pod pvp. Because if you don't go into any of the two, you loose against both sides. Links did not create the blob. Risk averse poor eve players, bad FCs, null doctrines created the blob. If you remove links- I can promise you that people will still blob. There is really high end pvp, but you know what? I have spent a lot of my soloing / small gang career with out links, and with out any significant implants. So it can be done. But like I said earlier, your engagement profile is just going to be smaller. When I am in my linked / snaked nomen- I can basically fight anything I come across. This is nice for me because I can spend less time looking for a fight, and more time fighting. Looking for fights is annoying / boring. SO doing everything in your power to create a ship with the widest engagement profile is always a better choice. The limiting factor is ISK at the end of the day. I don't care if you dont 'Want' to use links / snakes / drugs / implants. You are forcing limits on yourself- so be prepared to lose when someone has gone that extra mile. Don't blame other people because they are trying to push the envelope- just because you have a sense of 'space bushido'. If you dont' want to fly with all of the extra pvp stuff, stop complaining and be content having ships with a smaller enagement profile. Your paying less isk, and are using less effor that someone who is doing otherwise. The funny thing about blobs / super linked players- you never HAVE to fight them. You can always chose to, move on or dodge or blue ball. With eve-kill you can see someones history from the get go, and know what you are getting into before ever fighting them. | ||
|
Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:02 Skilledblob wrote: but I mean that's the point isnt it? Having more people should in theory give you the advantage assuming that the ships used are of similar quality. the reason why links are important to small gang pvp is because a) it gives you the advantage over a horde of shit fits and boosts you so much that you can still win b) it improves your own ship so much that a pilot of the same skill level and fitting would never stand a chance and B is imo the reason why solo PvP almost never happens anymore. The idiots run around in hordes because they are just that. The good players fly around with linked, snaked etc ships to kill the idiots but at the same time they also make groups to be able to handle the groups of other linked ships. So in my mind it's a selfmade problem. the relatively easy availability of T3 links in my opinion opened the gates for this development. I promise you that I have killed players, who like me are linked. I can also promise you that I have killed players who have been tripple linked, while I have only had one set. I have also killed players who have brought logi / ecm vs just me. I have killed logi, and then proceded to kill them. Your assumptions are wrong, people will make mistakes, and a good pilot can make a world of difference. | ||
|
DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:02 Skilledblob wrote: but I mean that's the point isnt it? Having more people should in theory give you the advantage assuming that the ships used are of similar quality. Hey there. So you want CCP to implement on-grid links so that your blob will be able to more easily bridge the gap with skilled pilots? It's fine to have an opinion, but this one is fucking terrible. Links are not necessary to abuse bad pilots with bad fits, but they are often necessary to abuse them in a situation where the odds would be otherwise outrageous. the reason why links are important to small gang pvp is because a) it gives you the advantage over a horde of shit fits and boosts you so much that you can still win b) it improves your own ship so much that a pilot of the same skill level and fitting would never stand a chance and B is imo the reason why solo PvP almost never happens anymore. I don't see the problem with a) at all. Links are not a button you push to instantly become good at the game - let's get this strawman right out of this discussion immediately. Good players can leverage links far more than bad players can. That's the reason they're so effective in the right hands. Making it so that only the bad blobbers can have links just reduces the engagement envelope of solo and small-gang players by a margin proportional to the fleet sizes. As far as b), two pilots of equal skill would be decided by links, OK. I think that's totally obvious and not even worth mentioning. How many situations in the game have two pilots of equal skill with equal advantages? Unless you have two guys with exactly the same skill level and understanding of the game in the same ships with the same fits, this just does not happen. When people say solo PvP, they rarely mean 1v1. They mean 1vMany. 1v1 just doesn't happen very often - I know because I went around in a Slicer for ages looking for other frigates to fight. It's the reality of the game. If you want some arena-style shit without gates and warping and docking and cloaked recons etc., then set up a tournament. 1vMany is the reality of solo piloting in EVE, and it is helped along greatly by off-grid links, allowing you a reasonable engagement envelope against what would otherwise be impossible odds - i.e. no fight, no mail, no fun. You just cannot possibly hope to argue that removing links from small groups or solo pilots will improve solo or small gang play. /edit - On August 03 2013 07:03 Nyvis wrote: The problem with "your" pvp is that it screw people who want to do small gang but don't want links/snakes/etc because by trying to fight the blob with more and more ways to get a bit of an advantage, you make the fight unwinnable for the people not using them, forcing them into blobbing too. So yes, links are the reason the game is in this state, not the answer to the problem. The corner case where links allow you to fight blob is way overshadowed by the major case where it screws small gang vs small gang, at a point where the only thing remaining is either blob or super expensive link + pimped pod pvp. Because if you don't go into any of the two, you loose against both sides. People do not blob to kill small gangs with links. Small gangs use links to kill blobs. I simply cannot believe that someone who has small gang PvP experience in this game would arrive at your conclusion. The main resources that small gangs use against blobs are superior skill, superior communication, superior coordination. Without those, links are meaningless. Take the best player in the game and give them maxed links with Titans in the most overpowered nano ship and they'll die the first time a scram hits them. I've seen these kinds of situations happen literally a hundred times. A skilled player cannot play outside the game mechanics. You can't simply ignore getting your MWD turned off. That's why you kite. It's hard to kite against 50+ people and recons when you've only got a handful. That's why you use links. It is not a fucking corner case - it happens every day around the clock. Small gang vs. small gang is going to be decided more by fleet composition and player skill than by links. It's such a rare occurrence anyway, in my experience. You make it sound like every single person PvPing in this game is with 50 others and recons or max linked and snaked. That is an exaggeration on both sides. There are many degrees of separation between no links and max linked and snaked. If you can't afford links or you simply don't want to bother with the hassle, that is a totally separate issue. | ||
|
Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:31 DefMatrixUltra wrote: Hey there. So you want CCP to implement on-grid links so that your blob will be able to more easily bridge the gap with skilled pilots? It's fine to have an opinion, but this one is fucking terrible. Links are not necessary to abuse bad pilots with bad fits, but they are often necessary to abuse them in a situation where the odds would be otherwise outrageous. I don't see the problem with a) at all. Links are not a button you push to instantly become good at the game - let's get this strawman right out of this discussion immediately. Good players can leverage links far more than bad players can. That's the reason they're so effective in the right hands. Making it so that only the bad blobbers can have links just reduces the engagement envelope of solo and small-gang players by a margin proportional to the fleet sizes. As far as b), two pilots of equal skill would be decided by links, OK. I think that's totally obvious and not even worth mentioning. How many situations in the game have two pilots of equal skill with equal advantages? Unless you have two guys with exactly the same skill level and understanding of the game in the same ships with the same fits, this just does not happen. When people say solo PvP, they rarely mean 1v1. They mean 1vMany. 1v1 just doesn't happen very often - I know because I went around in a Slicer for ages looking for other frigates to fight. It's the reality of the game. If you want some arena-style shit without gates and warping and docking and cloaked recons etc., then set up a tournament. 1vMany is the reality of solo piloting in EVE, and it is helped along greatly by off-grid links, allowing you a reasonable engagement envelope against what would otherwise be impossible odds - i.e. no fight, no mail, no fun. You just cannot possibly hope to argue that removing links from small groups or solo pilots will improve solo or small gang play. Basically this. People that don't fly with links, think that they are an instant 'i win' button. But i can tell you from experience that is not the case. When fighting a blob, if you make a single mistake- you're dead instantly. Using links gives the ability to simply try and engage the blob. What links don't give you is that ability to beat one. Defeating a blob takes lots of skill, experience and using the right ship with the right fit. One misstep, one little mistake- will get you insta killed. Did you not see that falcon decloaking? Or that inty suddenly OH towards you? You just died. If you missed that rapier decloaking, forgot to watch your cap, or accidently burned out a prop- your dead. People really forget about that. One ship with 16 or so mod slots, even with links / snakes is nothing when you compare it to a fleet that has 50+ slots at their disposal- along with the battery of ECM advantages + logi as well. | ||
|
Nyvis
France284 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:22 Ramiel wrote:There is really high end pvp, but you know what? I have spent a lot of my soloing / small gang career with out links, and with out any significant implants. So it can be done. But like I said earlier, your engagement profile is just going to be smaller. When I am in my linked / snaked nomen- I can basically fight anything I come across. This is nice for me because I can spend less time looking for a fight, and more time fighting. Looking for fights is annoying / boring. SO doing everything in your power to create a ship with the widest engagement profile is always a better choice. The limiting factor is ISK at the end of the day. I don't care if you dont 'Want' to use links / snakes / drugs / implants. You are forcing limits on yourself- so be prepared to lose when someone has gone that extra mile. Don't blame other people because they are trying to push the envelope- just because you have a sense of 'space bushido'. If you dont' want to fly with all of the extra pvp stuff, stop complaining and be content having ships with a smaller enagement profile. Your paying less isk, and are using less effor that someone who is doing otherwise. The problem is that because of people with links, the amount of people wanting to engage 1v1 without is getting smaller and smaller, so finding engagements without links get harder. And you don't consider newer people. Small gang is completely closed to them because they'll get smashed by that kind of things. I think you don't understand the point. The criticism isn't against the people using links. It's against the links themselves. It makes small gang hard to get into, and encourage blobbing if you don't have links yourself (because solo, you have no chance of fighting, at all). But using them is fine, since they're in the game, and it's legitimate to want every advantage on your side. You don't talk about the no risk factor. And that's the worst point about the links, for me. Giving yourself an advantage with faction/deadspace gear or navy/pirate ships is good, because if you screw up, you loose more. But with links, you can engage pretty much anything and you win pretty easily against those without... But if you screw up, you loose the exact same thing. Links currently go against the principles of risk and reward. And that's the biggest reason why I'd like to see a fix to that. Maybe on grid booster would have some bad side effects, but at least you would have to risk your link boat to get the bonuses. The same applies with pods in lowsec (since it's really hard to loose it during a small gang engagement). They're not even effective at fighting blob, since the blob can use them against you as easily as you do. Basically this. People that don't fly with links, think that they are an instant 'i win' button. But i can tell you from experience that is not the case. When fighting a blob, if you make a single mistake- you're dead instantly. Using links gives the ability to simply try and engage the blob. What links don't give you is that ability to beat one. Defeating a blob takes lots of skill, experience and using the right ship with the right fit. One misstep, one little mistake- will get you insta killed. Did you not see that falcon decloaking? Or that inty suddenly OH towards you? You just died. If you missed that rapier decloaking, forgot to watch your cap, or accidently burned out a prop- your dead. People really forget about that. One ship with 16 or so mod slots, even with links / snakes is nothing when you compare it to a fleet that has 50+ slots at their disposal- along with the battery of ECM advantages + logi as well. TL players aren't the only ones to use links. Your small corner case of links against blob is nothing compared to the obnoxious smashing of newer players and people trying to get into small gang with those. I respect your gameplay and the use you do of links, but their use in the more common case is way closer to the "iwin button" (I agree it's not when you fight outnumbered, though). The main resources that small gangs use against blobs are superior skill, superior communication, superior coordination. Without those, links are meaningless. Take the best player in the game and give them maxed links with Titans in the most overpowered nano ship and they'll die the first time a scram hits them. I've seen these kinds of situations happen literally a hundred times. A skilled player cannot play outside the game mechanics. You can't simply ignore getting your MWD turned off. That's why you kite. It's hard to kite against 50+ people and recons when you've only got a handful. That's why you use links. It is not a fucking corner case - it happens every day around the clock. Small gang vs. small gang is going to be decided more by fleet composition and player skill than by links. It's such a rare occurrence anyway, in my experience. I talk about what I know, aka fw very small gang or solo. Links are especially obnoxious in this case because of the size limitations of FW plexes. There is no way to win against a skirmish linked condor (more speed than any unlinked frig will ever get by far, and the ability to fight at 40km while keeping tackle on, when non linked kitting setups will fight at 25km at most. FW plexes are supposed to be a way to fight with stuff around your size, you can blob, but have to respect the size imposed. But linked ships are one class above. Especially skirmish (brawling fits with tanking links will still get killed fairly easily by kitting ships). It's possible to reach what non skirmish linked ships do by other ways. It's possible to blob them. Skirmish is a whole different world, though, since speed and range dictation is everything in taking equal/loosing engagement and turn these around, and it's pretty hard to compete against those. Outside of the FW case, I don't really have major experience with or against links (I mean, I played with them around, but in most cases, both sides had them, or neither). As for small gang vs small gang, the reason is simple, people want to win fights, not fight. The only way to get fights is either to take on stronger opponents (and for that reason, when I solo in FW, in most cases, I end up against people with links, because people without are afraid of the 1v1, in case I have some), or to dunk on noobs (links are effective there too since they're not that easy to spot). But really, if links are "mandatory" for everyone to get their fights and be competitive, why not just remove them for everyone, with the same result, but without the hassle of having to run a second account? And with the added benefit of being able to introduce people into pvp easier. | ||
|
DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:57 Nyvis wrote: The problem is that because of people with links, the amount of people wanting to engage 1v1 without is getting smaller and smaller, so finding engagements without links get harder. And you don't consider newer people. Small gang is completely closed to them because they'll get smashed by that kind of things. [1] I think you don't understand the point. The criticism isn't against the people using links. It's against the links themselves. It makes small gang hard to get into, and encourage blobbing if you don't have links yourself (because solo, you have no chance of fighting, at all). But using them is fine, since they're in the game, and it's legitimate to want every advantage on your side. [2] You don't talk about the no risk factor. And that's the worst point about the links, for me. Giving yourself an advantage with faction/deadspace gear or navy/pirate ships is good, because if you screw up, you loose more. But with links, you can engage pretty much anything and you win pretty easily against those without... But if you screw up, you loose the exact same thing. Links currently go against the principles of risk and reward. And that's the biggest reason why I'd like to see a fix to that. Maybe on grid booster would have some bad side effects, but at least you would have to risk your link boat to get the bonuses. The same applies with pods in lowsec (since it's really hard to loose it during a small gang engagement). [3] They're not even effective at fighting blob, since the blob can use them against you as easily as you do. [4] [1] This exact criticism could be leveled against players with more skillpoints, more ISK, more USD to buy PLEX etc. This is not a real criticism. Like I said before, 1v1 is an extremely small portion of PvP (except in hisec rofl). If you find someone willing to 1v1, ask for an invite to their fleet. They're out solo looking for a fight, they'll probably oblige you. It's very easy to come up with a list of solo players that roam with and without links if you roam solo yourself. Just referring to "people" makes it sound like an excuse to remove links rather than an actual problem you are facing. If you solo roam, you will get familiar very quickly with the pilots in the areas that you roam and whether or not they use links/crystals/etc. [2] Like I said, it's perfectly reasonable to wish that CCP would design the ships in the game so that they could remove links entirely. I think very few players that use links would disagree to that. It is a kind of arms race that most would be happy to do without because there are plenty of those in the game already. That doesn't mean you should disparage those who currently use links and it doesn't mean you should wish for your playstyle as a whole to be trimmed around the edges slowly until nothing else is there. [3] If you're talking about monetary risk in using links, why don't you browse some killboards? People lose linkboats all the time. Shit, I think KwarK personally lost 5 linkboats + pods in a month. Anyway, this kind of "risk" doesn't even matter because if your group collectively has anywhere near a trillion ISK, it becomes a moot point. Maybe you should lobby for everyone in the game to have equal income. [4] The blob can push the "links on" button as easily as anyone else can. Doesn't mean they can utilize them like a good pilot can. You having the audacity to state that links are not effective at blob fighting just reveals an extreme ignorance, prejudice, and dishonesty on your part in this discussion. | ||
|
Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:57 Nyvis wrote: The problem is that because of people with links, the amount of people wanting to engage 1v1 without is getting smaller and smaller, so finding engagements without links get harder. And you don't consider newer people. Small gang is completely closed to them because they'll get smashed by that kind of things. I think you don't understand the point. The criticism isn't against the people using links. It's against the links themselves. It makes small gang hard to get into, and encourage blobbing if you don't have links yourself (because solo, you have no chance of fighting, at all). But using them is fine, since they're in the game, and it's legitimate to want every advantage on your side. You don't talk about the no risk factor. And that's the worst point about the links, for me. Giving yourself an advantage with faction/deadspace gear or navy/pirate ships is good, because if you screw up, you loose more. But with links, you can engage pretty much anything and you win pretty easily against those without... But if you screw up, you loose the exact same thing. Links currently go against the principles of risk and reward. And that's the biggest reason why I'd like to see a fix to that. Maybe on grid booster would have some bad side effects, but at least you would have to risk your link boat to get the bonuses. The same applies with pods in lowsec (since it's really hard to loose it during a small gang engagement). They're not even effective at fighting blob, since the blob can use them against you as easily as you do. TL players aren't the only ones to use links. Your small corner case of links against blob is nothing compared to the obnoxious smashing of newer players and people trying to get into small gang with those. I respect your gameplay and the use you do of links, but their use in the more common case is way closer to the "iwin button" (I agree it's not when you fight outnumbered, though). New players are very useful in PvP small gang. They just have to know what ships to fly. In a an extreme nano situation, we place our new pilots in scram merlins. They are a very important and integral part of all of our fleets. In the 'new players only' arena of just flying nano, again they can do well. T1 cruisers (particularly the caracal) are EXTREAMLY effective nano ships, fit with basica speed implantas 2X nano. Many hatch pilots fly them all of the time, to extreme effect. The barrier to entry is very low. The RLM caracal shits all over frigs, dessies, and other t1 cruisers. If you want to spend a bit extra, scythe fleet is just as amazing. While the lack of links can make your engagement profile smaller, saying that a small gang of 5 caracals properly FC'd is not a threat / or is unable to find a fight- is just wrong. From personal experience, I have FC'd many 'noob' T1 cruiser gangs and have had amazing results using them. | ||
|
Nyvis
France284 Posts
[4] The blob can push the "links on" button as easily as anyone else can. Doesn't mean they can utilize them like a good pilot can. You having the audacity to state that links are not effective at blob fighting just reveals an extreme ignorance, prejudice, and dishonesty on your part in this discussion. I can't be both dishonest and ignorant :D But if they give the same bonus to you and to the blob, they aren't the reason why you can fight the blob. The reason is the setups you use with the links, not the links themselves. New players are very useful in PvP small gang. They just have to know what ships to fly. In a an extreme nano situation, we place our new pilots in scram merlins. They are a very important and integral part of all of our fleets. In the 'new players only' arena of just flying nano, again they can do well. I'm not talking about herding new players. They should be able to discover the real thing by themselves a little without being dunked by ships with twice the tackling range and speed. [3] If you're talking about monetary risk in using links, why don't you browse some killboards? People lose linkboats all the time. Shit, I think KwarK personally lost 5 linkboats + pods in a month. Anyway, this kind of "risk" doesn't even matter because if your group collectively has anywhere near a trillion ISK, it becomes a moot point. Maybe you should lobby for everyone in the game to have equal income. The losses are completely unrelated to the fight you get in, though. You loose them because you messed up with them specifically, not because you lost the main engagement. Loosing the engagement should mean loosing at least something proportional to what you engaged to try and win it. | ||
|
Tarias
Netherlands480 Posts
On August 03 2013 08:38 Nyvis wrote: I can't be both dishonest and ignorant :D But if they give the same bonus to you and to the blob, they aren't the reason why you can fight the blob. The reason is the setups you use with the links, not the links themselves. I don't want to get too mixed up in this discussion, but yes you can be both dishonest and ignorant... Also the fact your fit makes better use of the links than the blob, thus making it possible for you to engage them, definitely makes links part of the reason you can fight said blob. PS: My English is far from perfect, but even I cringe every time you write loose instead of lose. | ||
|
419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
Loosing the engagement should mean loosing at least something proportional to what you engaged to try and win it. I agree, remove the clone mechanic. People should have to risk their SP to get something as gamebreaking as 25% speed or 25% more damage. Then put a 5s align time on pods. ** Also, people blobbed just as hard before the proliferation of skirmish links. I can provide some representative BRs if necessary. Your small corner case of links against blob is nothing compared to the obnoxious smashing of newer players and people trying to get into small gang with those. You do realize that smashing, or attempting to smash other players with either superior numbers or some other mechanic, hoping for anything but an even fight, is about 90%++ of the PvP activity that happens in game? Links or no links. Let's try to dispel the notion that people would be honorable samurai with links put on-grid or whatever. On a more practical note, you have the ability to judge whether a ship is skirmish linked by its speed right? There is no way to win against a skirmish linked condor never fight condor not even joking, just don't do it. | ||
|
DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On August 03 2013 08:38 Nyvis wrote: I can't be both dishonest and ignorant :D [1] But if they give the same bonus to you and to the blob, they aren't the reason why you can fight the blob. The reason is the setups you use with the links, not the links themselves. [2] I'm not talking about herding new players. They should be able to discover the real thing by themselves a little without being dunked by ships with twice the tackling range and speed. [3] The losses are completely unrelated to the fight you get in, though. You loose them because you messed up with them specifically, not because you lost the main engagement. Loosing the engagement should mean loosing at least something proportional to what you engaged to try and win it. [4] [1] You can be ignorant about how PvP plays out and why it plays out and at the same time dishonest about your intentions and line of reasoning in the discussion. [2] Let's make an example here. If I fit a ship by rolling dice to determine what will go in the slots and then put links on it, it gets some kind of bonus from those links. Now let's take another ship fit by a nano pilot. Which ship gets the better bonus? In some sense, they get equal bonuses for equal links. But the reality of the situation is that a ship which is well-fit gets more mileage out of links because of the knowledge/experience of the pilot fitting the ship. Piloting knowledge informs fitting knowledge, which goes right back around and informs piloting knowledge. The "currency" which explains the gap in bonus here is the pilot's level of knowledge. That is why blobs do not make as good use of links as experienced pilots. Blobs form because bad pilots either quit the game, get good, or form blobs to win (so that they'll be "good" because winners are good). Giving links to a blob certainly makes it harder to fight them. It gives their tacklers extra threat. It allows them to warp more consistently and respond more consistently to commands. It gives them a tiny bit more EHP, making their opponents work harder to get mails. But links give so much more to skilled pilots that aren't following the APPROACH-F1 doctrine that 99.999% of blobs follow. That's why links are such a popular scapegoat for bad game design on CCP's part. There are so many players who never break out of their boxes, who never see outside the scope of the "superiors" that inform and command them. They just see "links = free ship stats" and whine about it. There are many fights in Hatchery history where we, for whatever reason, did not have links, but the opponents complained about them anyway. It's a matter of uninformed vs. informed perception. [3] This is another of those criticisms that don't matter. Same thing to be said for SP, ISK, USD for PLEX etc. New players have a hard time in EVE because it's a hard game. They start at a marked disadvantage without ISK and SP. If you're not going to complain about SP and ISK and USD, then don't sully this discussion with this point. [4] That is a very interesting definition of losing. According to that, I could go out in a small gang and fight a null defense fleet, lose every ship and pod and linkboat, and still not lose the fight. In a slightly different scenario, I could slaughter an entire fleet but lose 1 ship and still lose the engagement. Things like the definition of losing and winning don't mean anything in EVE because engagements don't have strict beginnings and endings, nor do they have well-defined boundaries. What matters is whether there are fights and mails and fun to be had. If you want to engender concepts like fairness and level playing fields for small gang and solo, you should be in this thread shouting at the top of your audible range about how stupid the state of ECM is. /edit - words are hard | ||
|
Viceorvirtue
United States273 Posts
Links on the other hand dont ensure kills and are hardly an iwin button unless you are flying a kiting ship and they are flying something brick tanked, in which case if you have the ability to manually pilot it wouldve been a free kill anyway. Additionally, many times when people say 'Not fair one guy can fight 10+ and be fine' the question really is 'Why does the larger gang not have a single recon?" The only 'important link' is the point range link, allowing you to actually hold point and stress the projection differences between you and your opponent. The speed link merely allows you to use a wider variety of ships for the same purpose, or to push the envelope with ships that are already ideal for kiting. I dont fully understand why people complain about links so much (with the exception of fw complexs) because you can achieve nearly the exact same thing with a pocket falcon/cloaked logi in terms of killing a single opponent. | ||
|
Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
I've been in many a' 1v1 fight with linked hookbils, (FW plexes) that were completely unwinnable. I don't know he's linked until he's pointed me at 40k and then the fight is over. He clicks orbit, turns on his missiles and damps, I'm dead. I cannot slingshot him, he's too much faster and more agile. I can't even return fire because I'm damped. I can never close the distance to get a lock, because again he is too fast and agile. It's an I win button. The fact that I have 0 chance to win because of a ship in the system that is off scan range is retarded. In populated systems there is simply no way to know who is linked and who isn't. I don't have the option to simply not engage them because they are linked. I often don't know it until I'm pointed at very long range, and then I'm fucked. I don't think putting them on grid is a good solution, because it does removes the potential for people to fight outnumbered. There has to be some compromise, the blob has had enough buffs. Perhaps some restriction on the links having to be in the same corp or alliance. This way at least if the links are a war target I can engage it on low sec gates or stations. It actually adds some risk to using them. As well as check the people in local and have a better chance of seeing that the person has potential links alts (because he has friendly in system). Maybe some other kind of indicator that shows either someone is giving links or receiving links. At least then I can make a decision not to engage. As it is right now, blobs, logi and ewar are stupid and overpowered imo, so if you want to fight outnumbered, you have to have links. They allow skilled pilots to fight outnumbered, on the other side, they make engagements for people not in a blob, not relying on logi or ewar, unwinnable in many situations (unless the person with links is utterly bat shit retarded) Maybe just scaling back the actual amount of bonus they provide would do it, I don't know. I wish logi, links, and ewar were weaker. I realize many on TL would not agree with this, but I feel like it does make enjoying the game difficult for many people who like to run 1 account and solo or just fly around with 2 or 3 friends. The truth is, because of how sp, blobs, ewar, and links work, I really feel like very little of eve combat has anything to do with actual piloting talent. Obviously, I don't agree with the people who want to sit at 0 and F1. I just feel there needs to be more room for good pilots to win fights, because they are good pilots. Certainly. I can appreciate fitting, decision making, and ship control as being areas of talent. However, these things are massively overshadowed in eve. If you are fighting massively outnumbered, using links to make the fight possible, than cool. But the vast majority of the time, they are just used to (like so many other things in eve) to remove any risk of losing the fight. The same reason that people use ewar, logi, and blobs. I think all these things need to be scaled back. Many of the people saying that links need to stay as they are, should realize that they just want to win with as little risk as possible. Using "you need them to fight outnumbered" seems to be everyone's pitch about defending links, but that is the minority of the time they are used, what about the rest of the time? You use them because you are risk adverse, no different from the ECM, logi, blob people that you bash. | ||
| ||
