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To be honest...after playing through deus ex 3, I have to say I liked invisible war better. At first I was disappointed in invisible war...but it grows on you and you start to appreciate that they did get a lot right. Deus ex 3 its the opposite. At first you're excited, because it seems to give you choices, but really its just side quests and two open ended cities to explore. Its just not enough...and you become disappointed the more you play.
The key thing they missed was that they didn't allow the player to get involved in any meaningful degree in altering how things will happen...and there weren't any meaningful conversations about the future of society, with reference to iconic philosophers. I was hoping they could've allowed the player to get involved in those, to debate the leaders of separate movements. But instead they just seem to focus on Jensen hunting down the bad guys. There is no real choice, or moment where you determine who the "bad guys" are. There is some degree of choice in the side quests, but its not the moral grey area choices, its more like black and white, and they aren't interesting choices either.
The only moment where that ability to choose starts to happen is at the end, which they give you a really lame ending. Choose the future of humanity by pressing one of these three buttons? It seems like they could've worked a little harder on making the ending more involved, like in the previous deus ex games, where you actually have to kill the leader of the movements and then do something significant in addition.
There are other problems but I don't want to get into it too much... I just hope that this isn't tied in some how to the fact that they're trying to appeal to console gamers as well, where things often need to be simplified for a casual gaming audience. I've just gone back to playing Fallout 2, with the restoration project mod installed, and I'm having a lot of fun playing it even though I've finished it ~10 times already.
I wish people would just get it. Its important for RPGs to offer players choices, and have those choices affect the world in meaningful ways. Why is it so difficult to implement this? I don't want to be doomed to playing Bethesda Oblivion style games and other "RPGs" developed for console gamers. Guess I should search for independent developers
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On October 07 2011 02:23 radscorpion9 wrote:
To be honest...after playing through deus ex 3, I have to say I liked invisible war better. At first I was disappointed in invisible war...but it grows on you and you start to appreciate that they did get a lot right. Deus ex 3 its the opposite. At first you're excited, because it seems to give you choices, but really its just side quests and two open ended cities to explore. Its just not enough...and you become disappointed the more you play.
The key thing they missed was that they didn't allow the player to get involved in any meaningful degree in altering how things will happen...and there weren't any meaningful conversations about the future of society, with reference to iconic philosophers. I was hoping they could've allowed the player to get involved in those, to debate the leaders of separate movements. But instead they just seem to focus on Jensen hunting down the bad guys. There is no real choice, or moment where you determine who the "bad guys" are. There is some degree of choice in the side quests, but its not the moral grey area choices, its more like black and white, and they aren't interesting choices either.
The only moment where that ability to choose starts to happen is at the end, which they give you a really lame ending. Choose the future of humanity by pressing one of these three buttons? It seems like they could've worked a little harder on making the ending more involved, like in the previous deus ex games, where you actually have to kill the leader of the movements and then do something significant in addition.
There are other problems but I don't want to get into it too much... I just hope that this isn't tied in some how to the fact that they're trying to appeal to console gamers as well, where things often need to be simplified for a casual gaming audience. I've just gone back to playing Fallout 2, with the restoration project mod installed, and I'm having a lot of fun playing it even though I've finished it ~10 times already.
I wish people would just get it. Its important for RPGs to offer players choices, and have those choices affect the world in meaningful ways. Why is it so difficult to implement this? I don't want to be doomed to playing Bethesda Oblivion style games and other "RPGs" developed for console gamers. Guess I should search for independent developers
but invisible war is terrible...it's always been the weak link of the series.
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On October 07 2011 03:04 Serpico wrote:
but invisible war is terrible...it's always been the weak link of the series.
Well, considering that there were only two games (total) in the series for the longest time its not saying much. Fundamentally it was more interesting, and had more variety... DX3 is just a very bland game.
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Wonder when the DLC will be available... Eidos website says "October 2011" but that isn't very specific...
I'll probably snap it up if it's <$5.
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On October 07 2011 01:48 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
I replayed Deus Ex 1 a few days ago and i cant understand why people think its that much better than HR.
Sure it may have been revolutionary back then and HR isnt right now
Deus Ex was released in 2000, 11 years ago. Nobody would care about Mona Lisa if it was painted today lol. Actually the sole fact that you replayed the game is a testament its awesomeness ( even if you are trying to nitpick to find some "flaws" ). Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
but looking bad at DE1 its pretty dull and the story isnt really hooking. If Deus Ex is dull i have to ask you which games aren't. It has some memorable moments and took video gaming to new highs ( Lebedev / Anna, Saving Paul ). It was the first time you could have this kind of encounters in a FPS ( i.e: implicit, meaningful choices ). When people played this game the first time they didn't always realize that you could save Paul or Lebedev because in all the previous FPS IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE. Do you even understand this huge leap forward ?
I replayed it because i didnt remember the story anymore, because the last time i played it was indeed in 2001 or so. Yes it may have been revolutionary back then and HR doesnt have any revolutionary bits, but im comparing these both games with each other, not with other games in their time.
The Lebedev event is actually a huge flaw in the gameplay. I killed Anna because she annoyed me while i was talking to him and Alex obviously immediately knows but decides to cover me up on the spot. And everyone is like yeah anna died somehow, cant be you, why would you do that, mustve been that unarmed guy that we found in the jet after you left it. Until you finally decide to join up with nsf and they instantly are like you will regret having killed anna!11
On October 07 2011 01:48 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
And the boss fights oh my...
you have this faggot gunther following you to multiple locations, just to get killed by 2 hits with a super sword. But its fine, he was an old model with mechanicals augs and the next boss will have nano augs and will be a lot harder. But wait, did he really just die to 1 single hit with the sword 1 second after the conversation because he tried to run past me?
Deus Ex was never known for its boss fights. It was known for the characterization of the bosses, how they interact with JC and the others npcs and how you could kill them at different moment in the game. The AI in Deus Ex was never considered exceptional, even when it was released and indeed the boss combat scripts are quite poor. It was quite disapointing because Dx uses the same engine than UT99, a game with some amazing bots. However since you are whining about the AI of a ten years old game, what about the Dx3 AI ? Is it good ? Did you like the boss fights with their ridiculous repetitive patterns ? The zombies of the last level ? The Final fight that you can win with 3 EMP ? I feel really sorry for you if you think that Dx3 has a good AI and good boss fights. Also the bosses have no characterization but w/e.
Didnt say HR has good boss fights, just said theyre not worse than dx1 unlike other people said.
Btw you cant kill shit in dx1
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/250533-deus-ex/faqs/28071
On October 07 2011 01:48 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
The story was pretty streamlined and had no twists at all, nothing to think about.
Yea sure. The NSF being good guys, Paul's UNATCO treason, Lebedev dilemna, Manderley being a corrupted bureaucrat, the augs, DeBeers/Everett, the three AIs, etc... there is absolutly nothing to think about LOL. Tell me about the great FPS that make you think please. Bioshock ? Portal ? Borderlands ? Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
You find out that ambrosia is created by the same company that creates the virus pretty soon and realize that it has fucking nothing to do with the masterplan of this guy who just wants to become god That's why it is a good game. Because you don't wait the last 10 minutes of the game to know what you are supposed to do. The "bad" guys are unveiled during the middle of the game and that's why you have the motivation to finish the game. In Deus Ex3 after Detroit i was running around without any clue and most of the quests were chores. I had no incentive because the bosses and bad/grey guys are so poorly characterized that you don't even want to kill them. The artsy Chinese bitch and three mute augmented agents... Even the fucking princess you have to save is dumb ( that's the only one i wanted to kill tbh lol ). Sure there are some more interesting characters ( Sarif, Tong etc... ) but you can't kill them anyway... they are just giving you quests. They are not real antagonists.
I wanted to kill them because they killed megan and almost killed me. Blood for blood. They are the bad guys who are unveiled within the first five minutes of the game, the question that stands is who was behind this all and why. You dont have to kill taggart or darrow but you can if you want to. They influence each others actions, unlike gunther manderley and even simmons who are just page's pawns obeying him to the word.
On October 07 2011 01:48 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
, where as in HR i was constantly wondering who is behind what, how is sarif involved in this etc, OH WHAT MEGAN IS ALIVE? And the progression is the same in both games, you travel from location to location, meet strangers who just happen to tell you enough to give you a hint to the next location.
Yea i felt the same. Runing around and hacking computers with the same fucking dumb mini game and clearing some filler missions with almost no motivation lol. Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:Another thing are the augs and the skillpoint system ins DE1. Now Denton has way superior augs than jensen, but he has to use his energy to heal himself, while jensen just chills out while his health fills itself automatically? And jensen can fall from any height without dieing unlike Denton who is crippled after falling one floor depsite having 4 points in the feet aug. Jensen can throw fucking vending machines and spin your whole body by grabbing your head and Denton throws a barrel only so far that he is still i nrange to grab it afterwards. Jensen becomes immune to emp and gas while denton still fucking dies after 3 seconds of being exposed to it. So yeah iny my oppinion HR > DE1 by far  Yea man definitly Deus Ex3 is clearly better than Dx1 because it has auto regen and because you can be immune to gas ( which is actually inacurate because you can get augs against gas in Dx1 too btw).
Here i was just referring to i think it was jibba stating that denton has more powerful augs.
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United States22883 Posts
I said the aug system was better in DX1. You built a fairly unique character in DX1 with different strengths and weaknesses, in DX3 every end character is basically the same, unless you missed the shitload of available praxis points.
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After playing through DX3 again, I realized half way through that I was just looking for the magic that was in DX1. Maybe I'm just a hipster but DX3 doesn't hold a candle to what the original was, in almost every single way besides graphics.
At least it reminded me to play through Deus Ex again.
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a few years ago I played deus ex and I was quite disappointed. The AI really killed the game for me, not that I wasn't expecting it but it was really game breaking for me.
I didn't find the "choice making" that being revolutionary since I have played a few games that let me do that already, it might be really cool/awesome back then but not all that unique for now.
I prefer the story in HR a lot more as well, not that I minded all the details like reading all the emails, trying to understand all the characters etc but the idea of "being aug is more or less of a human?" really did leave a much stronger impression to me. And I love how the story really rotate around this conflict, rather than focusing too much on conspiracy/dramatic events etc.
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I believed DX1 was the best game I ever played in terms of immersion. Playing it now it would not have the same impact. But back when it was released it was revolutionary. No one did a FPS/RPG quite that well until then. And the story really grabbed you, and the sidequests seemed much more impactful and memorable.
I just beat DX3 and I have to say I was disappointed. The aug system was lame and straightforward with a very obvious path. You earn XP and praxis primarily by hacking and killing enemies, so taking the hacking route early on is a no-brainer. And stealth isn't all that essential. Even on Hard.
As far as the story goes............COME ON!
+ Show Spoiler +
You think the story is about finding Megan. You spend the entire game hunting her down and rekindling that love and answering all these questions yadda yadda. Then when you finally rescue her she says "We used your DNA, oh, and I gotta split right now so... peace."
Then you go to panchea and the game ends in a very lame fashion. You choose the course of humanity by pressing a button. And you can unlock all 4 endings by simply reloading your save game before the end credits.
And here was my final boss experience at panchea. I got the 2012 code from the einstein character after convincing him with the pheromones. So I punch in the numbers at the dragon lady boss and hide in a corridor and the bitch dies. I dont even have to shoot her or use any of my augs to do absolutely anything.
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I wonder, is there anybody who played first DEHR, though it sucked, then played the original for the first time and liked it?
I think the whole DE vs DEHR debate is simply a "generation" issue. Most of the fans of the original played it long ago, as kids or teenagers. Unexperienced as gamers and individuals, more naive, often untouched by cyberpunk genre (I know I was like this). Well, no wonder game as good as DE left a big impression. Not on everybody though. I remember one of my friends complaining about how meaningless the choices were and how you could try all endings by simply reloading a save only couple of minutes old. Other friend was saying that DE was a great game, but that it was basically System Shock 2 dumbed down for general population. Sounds familiar?
I agree with them in some points. I often see complaints about the impact of choices in DEHR. But were there any meaningful choices in the original? You saved Lebedev? Well, he died anyway. You escaped the UNATCO for a while? Well Gunther took you into custody regardless. You saved Paul? Good, enjoy your couple of lines of dialogue. You warned Smuggler? It's not like he provided you with some extra limited goods for it, or did he? You saved Tiffany? Big deal, here's one aug canister for you. Found Ambrosia for Dowd? It's not like you missed something if you didn't. Killed DeBeers, saved Jock, Rentons, whatever? Nothing really mattered, the game went on to the three preplanned endings.
But you know what? I didn't mind that. The important thing was that I could do that and lot of other things. I didn't need 20 people congratulating me for saving my in game brother or innocent hostages, I had a damn good feeling just thanks the simple fact I did it. And this good or bad feeling worked for me in DEHR as well. When I saved the hostages in the plant, when I let Zelazny go, when my "rented" gun allowed Windmill to escape, when I talked down Sandoval from suicide, when I protected Malik and on and on. Not a single of these things was significal, but they mattered on my personal level as "the choices I did". Just like in original, nothing more, nothing less. So why is DEHR condemned for the same things the original was celebrated?
The obvious answer is "But the original is more than 10 years old! You would expect more from todays game." And that's the problem. The games made a tremendous progress in graphic in last years, but they hardly moved anywhere in terms of storytelling. The fans of original didn't want the same game as DE (although they were pretty vocal that they did), they wanted a game which would impress them like the original. And that's pretty much impossible these days, because the fans themselfes matured much more than the gaming culture. Blaming DEHR for bad story, bland characters and limited choices is like blaming the original for shitty graphic. It's just how things worked then and how they're working now.
Deus Ex: Human Revolution is simply much more Deus Ex and much less Revolution than it would be desirable.
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On October 08 2011 01:27 L0thar wrote:
I didn't need 20 people congratulating me for saving my in game brother or innocent hostages, I had a damn good feeling just thanks the simple fact I did it.
That's just the thing, though. The people reacting to you saving Paul was what the game was about. DX1 was about rewarding you with unique dialogue for accomplishing a task in a different way. As you said, it wasn't about giant changes to the game outcome.
I've played through DX1 dozens of times and always come across new dialogue, and I love that. In my most recent playthrough, I was escaping from UNATCO, and freed one of the prisoners to help me, which I've done before. And he survived much longer than he usually did. Then, I thought "Hmm... what if I can get him out of this facility alive?" So, I did, and the game rewarded me with a line of dialogue. It wasn't substantial dialogue, nor did it affect the plot at all. But, the very fact that the game acknowledged my tenacity like that is so rewarding for me. That's why I love DXHR, because the developers got that. In my most recent playthrough, I accomplished a goal before the game even told me about it or what to do. Got plenty of hilarious conversations out of that one.
It's not about the game endings, which universally suck in all DX games.
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I was a bit disappointed too  The choices they actually give you all relate to the stupid combat. It's all about the shooting now, but in the original it just felt like you were a small part of a larger plot, running around actually talking to people, not making it into a minigame. I think they should have focused more on that aspect, although I loved creeping into a random part of Picus News and seeing them construct a fake news broadcast. I was like （╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ GODDAMN CONSPIRACY
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On October 07 2011 03:49 Warri wrote:
I replayed it because i didnt remember the story anymore, because the last time i played it was indeed in 2001 or so. Yes it may have been revolutionary back then and HR doesnt have any revolutionary bits, but im comparing these both games with each other, not with other games in their time.
You really have some comprehension problems. People are not saying that Deus Ex 1 is better per se ( although i still think it is superior in some aspects but that's another discussion ). The comparison is about the "leap forward". Nobody here has said that Dx has better Gfx or AI than Deus Ex 3.
Just to be clear i think that Dx1 has better characterization and that Deus Ex 3 Gfx and AI are not impressive for a 2011 game by any means. I have never said that Dx1 is better in that regard. Also the aug+Xp system is kinda mediocre and i don't really like how it got merged. I prefered the aug system in Dx1 but i have never liked the Xp system tbh. I guess i just have a problem with Xp and stat fests in that kind of games.
The main point is that Dx3 is not a leap forward and l0thar explained it pretty well. It tried to be a bit like Dx, they reworked some part, added a new plot with new characters and a different engine but it is not a revolution. It doesn't mean it is a terrible game.
On October 07 2011 03:49 Warri wrote:
The Lebedev event is actually a huge flaw in the gameplay.
I killed Anna because she annoyed me while i was talking to him and Alex obviously immediately knows but decides to cover me up on the spot. And everyone is like yeah anna died somehow, cant be you, why would you do that, mustve been that unarmed guy that we found in the jet after you left it. Until you finally decide to join up with nsf and they instantly are like you will regret having killed anna!11
A huge flaw in gameplay ? lol first stop to use this dumb word please it doesn't mean anything especially if you are talking about the scripts/storytelling. Both Anna and JC are augmented agents with a tons of implants and Alex is the guy monitoring/helping the UNATCO super agents so i don't really understand why he can't know that one of them got killed... Heart sensor ? Microphone ? Who cares... it is a game with super agents, greys and nano augs anyway lol.
It is deus ex ( machina ) !
On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
Didnt say HR has good boss fights, just said theyre not worse than dx1 unlike other people said.
Actually they are worse because there is absolutly no build up whatsoever and they are ABSOLUTLY lame. Typhoon typhoon typhoon into gg while spending half of your time healing within the inventory.
I mean Dx fights are easy as shit, the boss AI is dumb but hey at least they are not breaking the flow.
edit: When you think about it Boss fights in FPS are always terrible "technically" because this is always the same repetitive and boring patterns. The important thing is always the build up or the settings.
Tbh i have played many FPS and the only boss fight i really enjoyed is Xan on hyperblast in UT99 because i didn't know about dueling vs humans and the AI was amazing for its time. Nowaday if i want a real challenge i just launch quakelive and that won't change until they start to make some sick AI better than humans ( which means they will need to make something far better than Dx3 AI lol ).
Yea sure but i don't really get your point ? You can't kill the G-man in Half life too and you will never be able to kill Gorion in Baldur's Gate without using cheats. Deus Ex is not a dumb sandbox game. It is heavily scripted and allow you to make choices to some extend but you are not supposed to kill the main characters when it makes no sense. You are playing JC Denton not Anders Behring Breivik.
Maybe in an alternative universe Warren Spector and Ion Storm are still working on another storyline where JC Denton can kill Paul at the beginning of the game and then the whole UNATCO staff but frankly if i just want to blast everything i can always launch good old quake or buy the latest CoD game.
Of course choices are limited and that's why they are meaningful contrarily to all the shitty sandbox games where you can do whatever you want and where everything is meaningless because it has no implication anyway.
On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
I wanted to kill them because they killed megan and almost killed me. Blood for blood. They are the bad guys who are unveiled within the first five minutes of the game, the question that stands is who was behind this all and why. You dont have to kill taggart or darrow but you can if you want to.
But that's the main problem. JC has no real past, he is a fresh guy out of the academy. You are learning at the same time than the character !
Now let's take a look at Alex. He loves Megan whereas i hated her from the start, he has a complex past and he knows stuff that you, the player don't know.
They are playing the amnesia card and i hated that. I was JC Denton but i never really identified myself to Alex.
I don't care about the lame cut scene where he almost gets killed, he is just another npc. Again poor build up.
On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
They influence each others actions, unlike gunther manderley and even simmons who are just page's pawns obeying him to the word.
lol whut ? If Manderley and Simmons are pawns then i wonder what Namir, Fedorova and Barret are hahahah probably some microsubpawns.
Anyway you are missing the point again. Even if the intro gives you some hints you don't really know from the start that Manderley is a puppet, actually he is your main quest giver for a long time. Simmons is different, you know that he has a relation with Page and you know he is bad but his relation with Page is not really clear, he is way too powerful and smart to be just a pawn imo, too bad you don't get more infos about him. Anyway it is not the fucking debate here, even if he is a pawn he is INTERESTING. The game is build to make Simmons your main rival, you meet him several time during the game with dialogs and there is a build up with tension. He is the real bad guy of the game, not Page.
Now compare that with mute Barrett, mute Fedorova and mute Namir lol.
At that point i think you are making a confusion about how the story is conveyed, its quality, and the story itself.
Yea sure there are no real bad guys in Dx3 except maybe the girl, Barrett and Namir ( the game is build to make you feel some pity for Fedorova with that dumb cut scene ) and it is indeed less manicheist than Dx1 but i don't care. I needed a GOOD antagonist and all we got is some decent or mediocre grey npcs and three BAD bad guys ( i hope you get what i mean lol ).
On October 06 2011 22:38 Warri wrote:
Here i was just referring to i think it was jibba stating that denton has more powerful augs.
He didn't say that. Again comprehension problem.
Great post nukethestar btw, they made some things right too 
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so im doing my second playthrough, trying to not kill anyone in the process. Does this mean i can't do the mission where i + Show Spoiler +drag that one guys body off the edge of a building?
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On October 10 2011 23:14 puppykiller wrote:so im doing my second playthrough, trying to not kill anyone in the process. Does this mean i can't do the mission where i + Show Spoiler +drag that one guys body off the edge of a building?
+ Show Spoiler +Dont you have choice to knock him out, and then hide drugs in his apartment so that he goes to jail instead of killing him? or was it another mission?
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On October 10 2011 23:14 puppykiller wrote:so im doing my second playthrough, trying to not kill anyone in the process. Does this mean i can't do the mission where i + Show Spoiler +drag that one guys body off the edge of a building?
I think all missions can be done without violence. It was even stupid in some places because it was clearly so the people that took peaceful way didn't feel left out.
They just should have made some peaceful only quests and kill only quests and let people decide what to do.
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On October 10 2011 23:58 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 23:14 puppykiller wrote:so im doing my second playthrough, trying to not kill anyone in the process. Does this mean i can't do the mission where i + Show Spoiler +drag that one guys body off the edge of a building? I think all missions can be done without violence. It was even stupid in some places because it was clearly so the people that took peaceful way didn't feel left out. They just should have made some peaceful only quests and kill only quests and let people decide what to do.
are you certain? i'm pretty sure that this quest specifically asks for this guys death. if you know a way to complete it without killing him that would be great.
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On October 11 2011 00:09 puppykiller wrote:
are you certain? i'm pretty sure that this quest specifically asks for this guys death. if you know a way to complete it without killing him that would be great.
There are two ways to do it. There is the violent way and the non-violent way (Diamond Chan guy, right?)
Once you reach the mission and talk to the mission-giver, all will be clear. Read all the dialogue options
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On October 11 2011 15:10 DisaFear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 00:09 puppykiller wrote:
are you certain? i'm pretty sure that this quest specifically asks for this guys death. if you know a way to complete it without killing him that would be great. There are two ways to do it. There is the violent way and the non-violent way (Diamond Chan guy, right?) Once you reach the mission and talk to the mission-giver, all will be clear. Read all the dialogue options
k thanks
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This is the first time i play this game (and FPS in general) ..
I have a hard time with those augs .. In what should i place them?
I really like to kill everyone ^^ from a distance (sniper) or sneak attacks (silently from behind). I'm not the big firescene's kinda guy ..
Are there any augs i should really get and others i really shouldn't?
Also, is hacking worth it? (what kind of bonus does it give or could give?)
Thanks a lot already!
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EPT
