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On January 28 2015 08:12 johnbongham wrote:
Total and uneven overreaction from valve. Matchfixing has been proven in the european scene in the past and nothing was done. This singling out of a group of NA players because richard lewis wrote an article about it is simply ridiculous. Valve created the skin situation and has done NOTHING to regulate third parties like csgolounge and online betting. This is valve's own fault for not getting involved earlier and making clear the consequences. For valve to all of a sudden take a strong moral stance to the detriment of players like Swag with some lifetime ban bullshit should be called out more strongly by the community. A 1 year ban is fine, but lifetime? Sorry, this isn't similar to broodwar at all. The ex-IBP team were not being paid a salary and were not beholden to any professional agreements like a kespa player might be. If you want your game's top players to act completely 100% professional you should pay them like one. Older players like dazed and steel, ok ban them, but a 17 year old under the influence of his older teammates? I call bullshit. This is a shitty precedent and its basically valve trying to save face for not taking any steps to prevent this from the getgo.
I could not disagree with you more.
To your first point - What happened in the past is entirely irrelevant to the current discussion. I haven't seen any proof of matchfixing and, especially, gambling on the results in the EU scene lately. This isn't an issue with Valve treating NA any different from EU, it's that this is the first scandal since CS:GO had it's massive 2014 explosion into a top tier Esport. They need to be a sanctioning body, and have responded exactly as they should have.
To your second, this issue has nothing to do with regulating third party gambling sites. It has to do with professional players and teams *betting on the outcome of their own games*! That's literally one of the least-ethical and most-damning practices that can ever happen in professional sports.
To your third - this is not Valve's fault for not "making clear the consequences". If skins had real money value, what these players did would be *illegal*. Like, "get arrested" illegal. Further, the ToS states that Valve will not tolerate cheating (i.e. match fixing). Match fixing is extremely harshly regulated in every other competitive sport and game - the players simply cannot play the "oh we didn't know" card.
Top players are paid via tournament winnings, and will likely be paid more and more as the sport grows in popularity. Low salary is completely different from expecting ethical actions of your participants.
Honestly, I don't think you said one sentence that has merit in this discussion. But I'm glad we have a forum where you have a voice.
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On January 28 2015 22:50 ShiaoPi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 21:54 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 18:33 Ysellian wrote:On January 28 2015 14:27 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 13:38 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 10:32 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 10:29 iKill[ShocK] wrote:But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news. Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare. VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up. Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far. betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already.... Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation. Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating. edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting. Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand? Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf?
The logic does not follow *at all*, lol. I addressed it in my previous post.
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On January 28 2015 22:50 ShiaoPi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 21:54 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 18:33 Ysellian wrote:On January 28 2015 14:27 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 13:38 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 10:32 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 10:29 iKill[ShocK] wrote:But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news. Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare. VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up. Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far. betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already.... Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation. Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating. edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting. Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand? Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf?
SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself.
"On April 15, 2011, in U. S. v. Scheinberg et al. (10 Cr. 336), three online poker companies were indicted for violating U.S. laws that prohibit the acceptance of any financial instrument in connection with unlawful Internet gambling, that is, Internet gambling that involves a "bet or wager" that is illegal under the laws of the state where the bet is made. The indictment alleges that the companies used fraudulent methods to evade this law, for example, by disguising online gambling payments as purchases of merchandise"
Sounds a lot like skins....
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On January 28 2015 23:41 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 22:50 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 21:54 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 18:33 Ysellian wrote:On January 28 2015 14:27 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 13:38 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 10:32 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 10:29 iKill[ShocK] wrote:But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news. Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare. VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up. Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far. betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already.... Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation. Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating. edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting. Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand? Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf? SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself.
Why bother calling it illegal anyway. There are plenty of things that are illegal that shouldn't be, so it holds no bearing on whether or not it should happen.
I don't think the betting system is shady anyway, betting pretty much happens in every sport, there are downsides to it, but you have to deal with those downsides rather than to blame the betting scene entirely. "Blame the player not the game", is that not a common phrase? I think it applies in this context.
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On January 28 2015 23:46 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 23:41 DEN1ED wrote:On January 28 2015 22:50 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 21:54 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 18:33 Ysellian wrote:On January 28 2015 14:27 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 13:38 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 10:32 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 10:29 iKill[ShocK] wrote:But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news. Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare. VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up. Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far. betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already.... Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation. Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating. edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting. Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand? Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf? SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself. Why bother calling it illegal anyway. There are plenty of things that are illegal that shouldn't be, so it holds no bearing on whether or not it should happen. I don't think the betting system is shady anyway, betting pretty much happens in every sport, there are downsides to it, but you have to deal with those downsides rather than to blame the betting scene entirely. "Blame the player not the game", is that not a common phrase? I think it applies in this context.
Yes, legal betting is all fine a good. Creating and supporting a system where 12 year olds can gamble online is not. The IBP players benefited from an illegal activity, Valve is doing the same.
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On January 28 2015 23:55 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 23:46 Djzapz wrote:On January 28 2015 23:41 DEN1ED wrote:On January 28 2015 22:50 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 21:54 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 18:33 Ysellian wrote:On January 28 2015 14:27 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 13:38 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 10:32 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 10:29 iKill[ShocK] wrote:
[quote]
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up. Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far. betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already.... Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation. Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating. edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting. Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand? Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf? SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself. Why bother calling it illegal anyway. There are plenty of things that are illegal that shouldn't be, so it holds no bearing on whether or not it should happen. I don't think the betting system is shady anyway, betting pretty much happens in every sport, there are downsides to it, but you have to deal with those downsides rather than to blame the betting scene entirely. "Blame the player not the game", is that not a common phrase? I think it applies in this context. Yes, legal betting is all fine a good. Creating and supporting a system where 12 year olds can gamble online is not. The IBP players benefited from an illegal activity, Valve is doing the same.
No, 12 year olds cannot gamble online unless their parents allow them to, or they bet the items that are worth a few pennies that they've accumulated over the months. You're making the very old demagogic argument soccer moms make "think of the children" when it's a non-issue that you've made up to support your side of the argument.
Children are put in a society where there are toxic products, cars driving around, cars they could get the keys to and drive around if they wanted, danger at every corner. If you'll tell me that children are at risk of better heaps of skin away, I'll ask you how, how were they put in a position where they could "lose" so much, and how is it the fault of Valve rather than the parents.
At some point people are going to have to take responsibility, and this comes from me, a guy firmly on the left. Let's be reasonable. I don't even bet on CSGO lounge but come on "THE CHILDREN ARE BETTING" and "SOON THE HOMOSEXUALS WILL MARRY DOGS" what the fuck even.
IBP benefited from an activity which's legality is irrelevant, it's immoral. Valve is doing its thing. The non-nefarious bets should not preclude other users of sites such as CSGOlounge from betting because yes there is a risk involved and it should be dealt with rather than deleted entirely. Arguments like yours are why we can't have nice things.
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Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane.
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On January 29 2015 00:07 DEN1ED wrote:
Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane.
I like to think of myself as a nuanced person in most matters that actually matter... I just unfortunately don't view this as one of them.
As for the "quite a bit of money you accumulate", it's steam money, it's not money you've earned, and it's money you wouldn't have had without skins or if you played another game. You can bet it away. Whatever. It's bad if you buy crap and you bet it, but that's a parent's responsibility.
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On January 29 2015 00:10 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 00:07 DEN1ED wrote:
Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane. As for the "quite a bit of money you accumulate", it's steam money, it's not money you've earned, and it's money you wouldn't have had without skins or if you played another game. You can bet it away. Whatever. It's bad if you buy crap and you bet it, but that's a parent's responsibility.
And this is exactly the opposite of what kids/young adults should be learning. Gambling addiction is a very real problem and it starts with this kind of fucked up logic.
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As far as the bans being excessive, I think that's just a matter of opinion. Personally, I think it is excessive, being that Valve had not set a precedent for the situation. Obviously it is a serious situation, but to pick and choose to act after the fact, rather than before, should allow the players at least a slight bit of leeway. Something along the lines of "since we didn't make this clear, here's a warning. Next time, your banned for life" sort of thing.
It also raises the question as to whether a company such as Valve can or should be creating precedents like this to begin with. A lot off people recall the 322$ Dota2 bet scandal with Solo, which ended up in individual tournament organizers dealing with the situation as they saw fit. When players had issues at TI4, it was Valve's tournament, and they handled it how they saw fit for their particular tournament.
The question it raises is not whether matchfixing is ok, but instead, when does Valve suddenly become an esports commission? I've seen the same problems with other companies such as Blizzard, and when a company that creates games suddenly (and often accidentally) stumbles into a situation where there game becomes sport, they need to to either devote time and effort into either being hands-on to the regulation of said sport, or hands off. Picking and choosing when to be the community's arbiter and when to leave things to the community is putting a very grey area on something that should be very and black or white.
When videogame companies want to start monetizing their games as sports or sporting equipment, then they need to have a plan to regulate, or not to regulate, them as such. To not do so is an incredible disservice to everyone who puts there youth, time, practice, and great effort into trying to make their sport viable.
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On January 28 2015 23:41 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 22:50 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 21:54 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 18:33 Ysellian wrote:On January 28 2015 14:27 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 13:38 ShiaoPi wrote:On January 28 2015 10:32 johnbongham wrote:On January 28 2015 10:29 iKill[ShocK] wrote:But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news. Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare. VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up. Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far. betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already.... Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation. Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating. edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting. Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand? Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf? SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself. "On April 15, 2011, in U. S. v. Scheinberg et al. (10 Cr. 336), three online poker companies were indicted for violating U.S. laws that prohibit the acceptance of any financial instrument in connection with unlawful Internet gambling, that is, Internet gambling that involves a "bet or wager" that is illegal under the laws of the state where the bet is made. The indictment alleges that the companies used fraudulent methods to evade this law, for example, by disguising online gambling payments as purchases of merchandise" Sounds a lot like skins....
Whoa whoa whoa, let's settle down here internet lawyers.
A bunch of you replied quickly, so I'm just going to reply to the post that started the tangent off.
Betting skins is *nothing like* internet poker. AT ALL. In the precedent you linked, the companies were allowing people to bet money by disguising the gambling as purchases of merchandise that have real value. Real money value, that you can extract easily into cash.
Skins are opposite. Skins have no intrinsic value. Zero. You cannot take a skin to Walmart and return it for cash. The entire value of trading skins is a *perceived* value by a collector. That's like trading Beanie Babies, or playing marbles for keepsies. You can't even liquidate a large number of skins because you'd drive your own market down.
Valve deserves exactly 0% of the blame for this scandal. If there had been an arrest because a 12 year old used the betting system to accumulate a large quantity of skins, liquidate them, and then not pay taxes - then Valve might have a share of blame for not reporting the revenue to the IRS.
However, this scandal isn't about whether or not betting skins is legal. This scandal is about a professional team gambling on their own game. That's illegal in EVERY sport. When boxers get caught, they get banned for life. When baseball players do it, they get banned *for life*. Those organizations are not at fault - everyone in any competition is well aware that gambling on your own results is illegal, and harshly punished because it jeopardizes the very sport that they're competing in.
Am I taking crazy pills? Why do you keep derailing this thread to be about the skin betting system!?
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It's trivially easy to turn skins into real money if you wish to do so. I mean, I could buy keys in bulk 1.7 euros per key right now in real money. Turning skins to keys and them to real money is not hard.
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On January 29 2015 02:03 iv~nk~j wrote:
It's trivially easy to turn skins into real money if you wish to do so. I mean, I could buy keys in bulk 1.7 euros per key right now in real money. Turning skins to keys and them to real money is not hard.
Yes, this. And if argue that skins are worth nothing and don't matter, then what's wrong with what IBP did? They intentionally lost a meaningless match for what you say is no gain. Also, like you mention, I highly doubt anyone betting on CSGL is reporting their winnings to the IRS so everyone is guilty of tax fraud.
And the reason I've brought up the skin betting system is because Valve is supporting and profiting from a questionable online betting service but then all of a sudden they come out with these bans like they are the communities true moral compass. I just don't like hypocritical systems.
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You don't need to report your CSGL winnings to the IRS because you didn't win money and you won't find a court in the world that'll say you need to declare your earnings before they're even sold for money. Hell unless you made several thousands and it's actually in your bank account they probably don't care.
No one is ever going to tax your digital gaming assets x_x. If you win $5000 of skins in 2015 and you sell them for $3000 in 2016, you pay taxes for $3000 in 2016.
CSGL is not responsible for your minor tax fraud if you decide to sell items outside of Valve's parameters without declaring your revenue. And if you don't declare multiple tens of thousands in earnings from selling internet items it's your fault.
On January 29 2015 00:19 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 00:10 Djzapz wrote:On January 29 2015 00:07 DEN1ED wrote:
Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane. As for the "quite a bit of money you accumulate", it's steam money, it's not money you've earned, and it's money you wouldn't have had without skins or if you played another game. You can bet it away. Whatever. It's bad if you buy crap and you bet it, but that's a parent's responsibility. And this is exactly the opposite of what kids/young adults should be learning. Gambling addiction is a very real problem and it starts with this kind of fucked up logic.
If you think so, don't let your kid bet items on CSGL.. Take some responsibility.
Don't like gambling, don't gamble. Don't like driving? Don't drive. Things have risks, you make choices.
Betting skins has consequences and we should mitigate them, not prevent people from betting when many of them are just having a good time and they're doing their thing.
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On January 29 2015 03:22 Djzapz wrote:
You don't need to report your CSGL winnings to the IRS because you didn't win money and you won't find a court in the world that'll say you need to declare your earnings before they're even sold for money.
Sure, I agree, but then people have to stop calling what IBP did illegal. Either skins are real money and treated as such or they are treated as nothing but some pixels. So IBP intentionally lost a game for no value. Professional sports teams arguably lose on purpose all the time for actual value(draft picks).
On January 29 2015 03:22 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 00:19 DEN1ED wrote:On January 29 2015 00:10 Djzapz wrote:On January 29 2015 00:07 DEN1ED wrote:
Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane. As for the "quite a bit of money you accumulate", it's steam money, it's not money you've earned, and it's money you wouldn't have had without skins or if you played another game. You can bet it away. Whatever. It's bad if you buy crap and you bet it, but that's a parent's responsibility. And this is exactly the opposite of what kids/young adults should be learning. Gambling addiction is a very real problem and it starts with this kind of fucked up logic. If you think so, don't let your kid bet items on CSGL.. Take some responsibility. Don't like gambling, don't gamble. Don't like driving? Don't drive. Things have risks, you make choices.
I'm not a parent nor do I have any kids. Do you really think that parents have 100% control over their kids though? I highly doubt they even realize that they are able to gamble like this. Also, you don't seem to understand addiction. There is a huge difference between liking something and being addicted to it. Gambling is highly addictive and even more so in youth. I've seen a lot of gambling addicts and it's really scary. It destroys lives.
With your logic why don't we just make heroic legal and have it available to kids at lunchtime. No problem there. The parents will just tell their kids it's bad so they won't do it.
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Value and money are different. IBP lost a game on purpose, they acquired the loose right to possess digital items that they don't technically own just like World of Warcraft gold, and the "right" to these items *can* be sold for real money (or put towards buying Steam games). I don't know if match fixing is legal or not in the US or in any other country, I for one am satisfied with the sanctions imposed by valve, but a case could probably made to say that this anticompetitive behavior doubles as theft.
In the end, people who bet items that they sort of "own" are betting expecting both teams to play the game normally. If you bet an item worth $50 on IBP and they intentionally lose the match, part of that $50 technically goes to them.
Ignoring the legality, it's a shitty thing to do, especially since the people who bet on IBP are not just speculators but they're also IBP fans - the people who are rooting for IBP, the people who trust IBP for whatever reason.
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We are in agreement there, it was a completely shitty thing for IBP to do. It's just that Valve has created a monster with skins and betting and now it just seems like they are doing a 180.
I just think morally Valve should try to shutdown CSGL. It makes it way too easy for underage kids to gamble. If you wan't to gamble there are still sites like egamingbets which at least require some more verification. They won't do it though because they profit so much from it. Just seems hypocritical.
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On January 29 2015 03:47 DEN1ED wrote:
I'm not a parent nor do I have any kids. Do you really think that parents have 100% control over their kids though? I highly doubt they even realize that they are able to gamble like this. Also, you don't seem to understand addiction. There is a huge difference between liking something and being addicted to it. Gambling is highly addictive and even more so in youth. I've seen a lot of gambling addicts and it's really scary. It destroys lives.
And what is your argument? Parents don't have 100% control over their kids and so kids should be completely sheltered?
Look, it's simple - 12 year old kids who play CS don't have a lot of skins. If they do, it's their parents buying them. If they gamble with their skins, it's the parent's responsibility. If a kid has an allowance of $2 a week and he goes and spends that $2 every week at the $2 plushie machine with the weird claw thing that you can't really control, then it's a problem. However, the solution is education, not the removal of the plushie machines. The plushie machine is a legitimate thing.
As for addiction, I understand it, and if a parent is the kind to put a lot of money for skins in their kid's game, then ffs, they should look at it. Again, the solution is not to bring down the structure.
On January 29 2015 04:08 DEN1ED wrote:
We are in agreement there, it was a completely shitty thing for IBP to do. It's just that Valve has created a monster with skins and betting and now it just seems like they are doing a 180.
Ford created a monster when he created cars which would kill tens of thousands of people in accidents every year and would massively pollute, we make a choice and our children go to school and all that.
Valve didn't create a monster with skins, Valve did what people do, they made a thing and people choose to use them stupidly (or not). There is no monster. I have some skins, my friend bets skins and he has fun with it. Not a big deal. Don't punish everyone because some people can't handle their shit.
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It's not just 12 year old kids with a few dollars. You can get a job starting at around 15 and I've heard kids in casuals talking about how when they get their first paycheck they are going to buy a "max bet" skin. Sure, it's that kids money and it's his choice but it's harmful to society as a whole.
And what does Ford do? They try to make cars safer and safer. Valve doesn't care.
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I mean there's a case to be made for regulation, sure. But it's not the main problem as far as this thread goes. I'd be in favor of a 18+ clause for using CSGL. But this has nothing to do with what IBP did. Trying to prevent betting altogether is the equivalent of telling people it's illegal to drink. You can be addicted to drinking, if you tell people they can't drink though you don't fix anything.
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EPT
