EPTThe bans are consistent, at least.
Beyond the Scandal - Page 9
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yamato77
11589 Posts
The bans are consistent, at least. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On February 07 2015 04:06 Souma wrote: Once again, you guys are missing the entire point. The definition of "professional" is as clear as day if you're just going by the definitions that Valve posted. Now, whether or not it is FAIR to label certain players as professional or not is an entirely different discussion. Get it? Jeezes people, just read. I have not once contradicted myself in this discussion, but if you want to accuse me of such you should show proof. No, once again you are missing the point. In the context, defining if it is FAIR to treat certain players as professional is part of the definition (as they were only mentionning that term) and definitely the discussion we were having. We are not talking about the term "professional" in a general context at all. Also, Valve did adress that part by adding "and anyone who wishes to participate in a Valve-sponsored CS:GO event in the future." to complete their statement. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
We are talking about the term "professional" as defined by section 2 of the Merriam Webster dictionary that was so graciously linked to everyone who seemingly did not know what a "professional" was. The definition is three-pronged. The term "professional" is and has always been broad, so you trying to mold it just to fit your own little world was a mistake in the first place. It seems to me that the people here, rather than truly not knowing what a "professional" is, just do not like its broad definition and would rather see it narrowed to fit their mold of what they think is fair to characterize as a professional. In any case, so many of those semi-pros have labeled themselves as "Professional CS:GO player" in Twitter and on Facebook. Even they are aware of what they are. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On February 07 2015 04:34 Souma wrote: What? We are not "defining" it as "fair" or unfair, we are "stating our opinion" on whether or not it's fair. Two completely different things. We are talking about the term "professional" as defined by section 2 of the Merriam Webster dictionary that was so graciously linked to everyone who seemingly did not know what a "professional" was. The definition is three-pronged. The term "professional" is and has always been broad, so you trying to mold it just to fit your own little world was a mistake in the first place. Why would it be a mistake? As you said the definition is too broad, and this is exactly what I meant : This definition alone is not enough. Also, I franqly don't care about the term in itself, what I care is that the rules are clear and precise (see the FA rules for soccer). As of now, Valve recommends to everyone who wishes to participate in a Valve-sponsored csgo tournament to never bet, which is an upgrade from their earlier statement, but still leaves out all the non-Valve-sponsored tournaments and it is still only a recommendation. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Anyone who is crying, "What is a 'professional?'" is not actually saying they have no idea what a professional is but rather, they are just upset over its scope, and that's what I've been trying to point out. See, you do know what a professional is! | ||
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lestye
United States4135 Posts
On February 07 2015 03:09 DEN1ED wrote: This whole argument about what/who is a professional is completely irrelevant because once again, they just say it is a "recommendation". Come out with some real defined RULES or actually do something about sites like csgl. Just recommending things doesn't mean shit. I don't think that will ever happen. From my knowledge & understanding, Valve likes to judge and evaluate on a very subjective basis. If they come out with real defined rules, you're going to have people who ride the fine line, and try to exploit those rules. If everything is a subjective, then they have the power to be judge, jury & executioner on any basis without being limited to something they might not have the foresight to see. This new guy is getting caught doing shady shit, but the rules doesn't cover that, so I guess we have to let it slide, amend the rules and hope to catch the next bastard. If there are rules, people are going to ride the line. However, Valve doesn't want you ANYWHERE near that line, if that makes sense. You could say that's complete bullshit, unfair, and you'd have a good point, but I think that's how Valve sees things. | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
Especially those to the ex-ESC players (who are now contesting ever doing anything). | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On February 07 2015 05:53 Roggay wrote: Still, what do you guys think about the bans? Especially those to the ex-ESC players (who are now contesting ever doing anything). Valve isn't stupid enough to ban without definitive proof. But then again, we can't see the evidence because that's a whole another beast to fight (if we see how valve tracks, then we can circumvent it). It's pretty bad for the esc guys if they are innocent but then again, if Valve is right, then that's sad. On another thought, Valve having to do all of these investigations is leading away from the problems the game has (hitbox problems, tagging, adad, movement, etc). | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
For one, the only reason CS:GO was able to get this big was because Valve, after failing miserably post-release, began to listen to the pro community. Are they perfect? No, and there are a ton of things that still need to be done, but they did not throw this game away and should at least be respected for that. Throwing a "measly $750K a year" into sponsoring tournaments is what's helping this game grow even bigger, especially competitively. That + the stickers are what's making all these big organizations come into the fold. Gambling fully illegal? Like what? Totalitarian much? We all know that'd be impossible to regulate, let's be real here. NA scene is dead? WHAT? The NA scene just took a step back, and it'll take time to recover, but it's not dead. Valve still has a lot of stuff to do (buffing their anti-cheat efforts, fixing multiple aspects of the game, better servers, transitioning Season/Tuscan into the map pool, etc. etc.), but you are going way too far with the criticism my friend. Tone done the exaggerations. | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On February 07 2015 06:14 Souma wrote: There you go with your hyperbole again. For one, the only reason CS:GO was able to get this big was because Valve, after failing miserably post-release, began to listen to the pro community. Are they perfect? No, and there are a ton of things that still need to be done, but they did not throw this game away and should at least be respected for that. Throwing a "measly $750K a year" into sponsoring tournaments is what's helping this game grow even bigger, especially competitively. That + the stickers are what's making all these big organizations come into the fold. Gambling fully illegal? Like what? Totalitarian much? We all know that'd be impossible to regulate, let's be real here. NA scene is dead? WHAT? The NA scene just took a step back, and it'll take time to recover, but it's not dead. Valve still has a lot of stuff to do (buffing their anti-cheat efforts, fixing multiple aspects of the game, better servers, transitioning Season/Tuscan into the map pool, etc. etc.), but you are going way too far with the criticism my friend. Tone done the exaggerations. How long have you even followed cs? Valve has treated the entire cs scene with disdain for over a decade. To say valve is the only reason the cs scene has gotten this big is the biggest turd of a line I have ever read in my life. Do you know how many people have worked tirelessly for NOTHING to keep this scene alive? Valve nearly destroyed cs when they forced a shit game (source) into tournaments when 1.6 was finally hitting it bigtime. That already destroyed the NA scene once because all the best players had no choice but to switch to source for CGS which ended up going bankrupt in only a year. Many of those players (who were the best, who could actually compete internationally) never returned because they never made any money to make it all worthwhile. What we got after that were all the leftover ok-level players who are at the top of the scene today and they are honestly nobodies which is why NA is not competitive at all. YES, a measly 750k a year. You see how much money a f2p game like dota gets? A game that has nothing to do with valve's success as a company? MILLIONS. You know how much valve is making off of CSGO skins? A shit ton more than 750k I can tell you that for sure. If it weren't for cs 1.6, nobody would even be using steam. Steam's entire launch as a software was based on it being required to play the newest update of cs which was in version 1.5 and at the time the biggest multiplayer game in the world. If it weren't for cs, there would be no steam as we know it today. Gambling is illegal for minors in many countries and online gambling is completely illegal in others no matter your age. CSGL will be shut down eventually or at least heavily regulated, mark my words. I am glad you think the integrity of online gambling is what matters the most in this situation. The NA scene is DEAD. No matter how many orgs get involved, the players will never be competitive with a european scene that was able to thrive through the source debacle and produce a generation of players with legit lan and top-level pro experience. You are seriously willfully ignorant if you believe that ANY of the existing NA teams will win any tournament this year outside of ESEA lan and I doubt they will win that either. Look at all the top teams right now and their players. These players have 100x the experience of anyone competing from NA and are proven champions. You want to talk about maps? Talk about how the most popular competitive maps in cs history are all basically community made maps that were designed to replace the shit maps valve has tried to force onto the scene for years. Now that valve puts up a tiny bit of prize money the tournament organizers are like "o shit I guess we have too play cbble now!" Cbble already ruined a couple tournament conclusions int he past couple months. How many more? Tuscan is a ripoff of cpl_mill, which was a community map that was created to fill a void left by valve when cs was at its first peak. Valve has no legs to stand on at all in any of this mess. Valve is losing a ton of respect and damaging the scene. There is no hyperbole in anything that I say. Its just the way things are and have been. | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On February 07 2015 07:18 Capped wrote: If valve arent responsible for the surge in CSGO's popularity and growth then who is, please tell. CS has always been huge. Tons of players who quit for years such as me are coming back because there is excitement at the pro level that has nothing to do with valve other than the added prize money they put into a few tournaments a year. Esports itself is gaining popularity. Ill give valve credit for listening to the scene for once and updating a game that was absolute shit at release but valve doesn't deserve even 20% of the credit for where the game is at now. The credit is due to the people who worked behind the scenes to keep this game alive for over a decade while valve treated it like a red-headed step child. You guys honestly have no grasp on this history of cs if you want to think valve is the one that just magically made this all happen. Valve didn't even create cs. It was created by a couple guys in their dorm rooms basically and it became bigger than any game valve ever came up with so they bought it out. CS has always been a community driven game and valve has demonstrated time and time again that anytime they try to get involved and force things upon the scene they get it wrong. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On February 07 2015 07:18 Capped wrote: If valve arent responsible for the surge in CSGO's popularity and growth then who is, please tell. CSGL, honestly. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
There is no way to completely regulate gambling. As it is, gambling online is already illegal in the U.S. That hasn't really stopped people from betting real money online. You can tear down CSGL all you want, another one will just pop up, and another and another... and another. Granted, Valve probably has no jurisdiction in Poland, where CSGL is located, so try as they may they can only do so much. And stop saying the NA scene is DEAD, holy crap the hyperbole is ridiculous. If a handful of players getting banned killed the scene then that means the region was dead to begin with. It's funny how you say the scene is dead yet all these big organizations are still pouring money into it, and EG is still looking for a team. I believe the description you are looking for is, "currently unable to compete," not "dead." "You want to talk about maps?" I said they had to improve the map pool (didn't disagree at all) and here you go. Are you even reading anything? CSGL wouldn't be here if Valve didn't introduce skins, and the bigger the tournament the more bets are made, so Valve sponsoring these majors is, believe it or not, having a huge effect on the community. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On February 07 2015 08:00 Souma wrote: There is no way to completely regulate gambling. As it is, gambling online is already illegal in the U.S. That hasn't really stopped people from betting real money online. You can tear down CSGL all you want, another one will just pop up, and another and another... and another. Granted, Valve probably has no jurisdiction in Poland, where CSGL is located, so try as they may they can only do so much. It is only illegal for banks to move money for online gambling. It isn't illegal for an individual to gamble online. I won't pretend it isn't a gray area, but it isn't completely black. I'd also suggest that it is easy for CSGL to skirt this because skins don't need to be laundered like traditional betting transactions. Money laundering is what got online poker a few years ago. | ||
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DPK
Canada487 Posts
Which wouldn't even exist if Valve didn't add the gun skins update. | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On February 07 2015 08:00 Souma wrote: I don't think you've actually followed CS:GO closely and are incapable of properly analyzing its growth. It has not "always been huge." Any past success of 1.6 currently has nothing to do with CS:GO's success. The numbers have told us everything we need to know the past year and a half or so. As much as you'd like to think that the community is always responsible for everything (except apparently match fixing) that is not the case. There is no way to completely regulate gambling. As it is, gambling online is already illegal in the U.S. That hasn't really stopped people from betting real money online. You can tear down CSGL all you want, another one will just pop up, and another and another... and another. Granted, Valve probably has no jurisdiction in Poland, where CSGL is located, so try as they may they can only do so much. And stop saying the NA scene is DEAD, holy crap the hyperbole is ridiculous. If a handful of players getting banned killed the scene then that means the region was dead to begin with. It's funny how you say the scene is dead yet all these big organizations are still pouring money into it, and EG is still looking for a team. I believe the description you are looking for is, "currently unable to compete," not "dead." "You want to talk about maps?" I said they had to improve the map pool (didn't disagree at all) and here you go. Are you even reading anything? CSGL wouldn't be here if Valve didn't introduce skins, and the bigger the tournament the more bets are made, so Valve sponsoring these majors is, believe it or not, having a huge effect on the community. Seriously, man. Just stop. That is like saying that broodwar has nothing to do with sc2's success despite sc2 clearly being the inferior game. If you think the popularity of cs right now is due to skins and gambling and not its gameplay you are confused. People love to play CS, People love to watch cs, and now people love to gamble on it. The NA scene is dead. Ex-IBP was the only team with even a slimmer of hope to compete against the world's best and it was blown up before it could get off the ground. Swag is a cs prodigy - there is nobody like him in NA right now, and now hes done for the foreseeable future. There is no in-game leader like Dazed right now either. Daps and adren are source heroes, who have never competed among the world's best at any time in their entire careers because they simply are not good enough and I don't see that changing. Maybe 2016 we will have some players emerge and prove their stripes like nitr0, who then go on to form a complete team, not just a team with a couple rising stars and a bunch of filler. I honestly admire the fact that you hold onto so much hope but there really is none at all right now and you are going to be feeling a lot worse about things after each and every disappointment you have as the tournaments come and go this year. I don't believe the matchfixing players should go unpunished, I think their punishment needs to be reasonable and defined and I think valve needs to make good on all the cs scene has given them to work with without simply screwing over a bunch of players who were participating in something valve has chosen to completely ignore up until this point. Skin betting is terrible for this game. It isn't real money, and if it is, then it is illegal for many of the people currently participating in it. This will get noticed eventually, and valve will simply wash their hands of any culpability and ban skin betting like they had nothing to do with it right? *eyeroll* | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On February 07 2015 08:08 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: It is only illegal for banks to move money for online gambling. It isn't illegal for an individual to gamble online. I won't pretend it isn't a gray area, but it isn't completely black. It is a grey area, and that's why I said it hasn't really stopped people from betting. It's incredibly difficult to regulate. It actually varies from state to state as well. Some states outright ban online gambling. New Jersey it seems has fully legalized it. The point is, it's too difficult to regulate. Especially when it comes to a company like Valve doing the regulation, and not governments. | ||
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