EPTBeyond the Scandal - Page 7
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iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 05 2015 04:04 Souma wrote: Doesn't matter. You don't dish out punishments based on hypotheticals. It doesn't matter you make the punishment the same. You don't change it from one team to another just because of x. Valve should have the same punishment to everyone. They all did the same damn thing and they all denied it until the proof came out. Just because it took 4 months for Valve to actually look into it doesn't mean IBP players should be punished harsher then the other teams who may have done it even more. Same punishment otherwise it's stupid. I don't know what I think the punishment should be, but even just a "year" is like a whole career in esports so I am pretty sure we'll never see any of these players play in the pro scene on a team ever again and have good results. | ||
Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
Discussion This discussion (Mattwood is a valve dev) raises a lot of good points, mainly whether or not pro players are allowed to bet or not at all, and what a pro player is to valve. Nbk refers to valve's blog : Professional players, their managers, and teams’ organization staff, should under no circumstances gamble on CS:GO matches, associate with high volume CS:GO gamblers, or deliver information to others that might influence their CS:GO bets. In my opinion, the rules are way too vague at the moment and it has to be confusing for a lot of players, especially those semi-pro teams. | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
'should under no circumstances gamble on CS:GO matches' thats as unequivocal as it can get. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On February 05 2015 23:05 PassiveAce wrote: thats not vague at all. 'should under no circumstances gamble on CS:GO matches' thats as unequivocal as it can get. I disagree. the definition of a CS:GO pro is not exactly set-in-stone. Does this rule apply to people who occasionally sub in a team lineup? People on the staff of a team (writers, graphic artists, etc.)? People who directly sponsor a team? People who retired from a team recently? And Valve has done nothing to outline clear and definite repercussions for individuals that do break what is currently just a "stern suggestion". Richard Lewis has covered this in a video before, and stated what he sees as necessary esport betting rules -- check it out here (about 20 minutes in): | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Professional players, their managers, and teams’ organization staff, should under no circumstances gamble on CS:GO matches, associate with high volume CS:GO gamblers, or deliver information to others that might influence their CS:GO bets. They need to define punishments though or at least a range of punishments. I also don't think it's necessary to forbid players/staff from betting on all matches, just their own matches, but whatever. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
If an esea-open team happens to participate once in a tournament where one of its match is featured on csgolounge, does that mean that they should be treated as "professionals" and banned from betting forever? Sure, this rule is very clear (even it could still be vastly improved) for the few top teams; they and their staff should not bet period. But what about all the other team and semi-pros / amateurs? Mattwood defined "professional" with definition 2a, 2b and 2c of http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional. But even this is not enough at all, because 1) contracts are not really made public 2) what about the "non-professionals" that are still featured on csgolounge, are they still able to bet? This is very far from being clear. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
If they didn't bring up non-professionals, why in the world are you asking about it? If a law says, "Minors below the age of 21 are not allowed to drink," are you really going to ask, "What if they are 22?" Seems to me like you're just making it confusing for yourself. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
The fact that there is any confusion over what Valve means when it says "professional" indicates a need for them to be more specific. There are instances of salaried teams playing against non-salaried teams all the time (which appear on CSGL) so what happens if a substitute player from the non-salaried team bets on his team (even if he's not playing)? There will inevitably be many situations where a dictionary definition cannot be easily applied, which is why we need clear-cut rules about this. It doesn't need to be overly complex, but modelling it from how traditional sports deal with it seems to be a good place to start (as indicated in the RL video I posted above). | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Then the rule as it is now does not apply to them. Not sure why it's so confusing. Once again, if a law states, 'You must be 21 or over to drink alcohol,' are you going to ask, 'What if you're 20? What if you're 20 but you're with a group of 21-year-olds? What if you're 20 but... you aren't even drinking alcohol?' You don't have to explicitly mention a group to get a direct implication across. I think what you guys are asking for is not clarification on whether or not a professional can do this or that, but whether non-professionals can do this or that, and as far as Valve is concerned, they cannot and will not regulate non-pros as they explicitly left them out. Seems pretty straight forward to me. And for the record, "semi-pro" is still a pro in this regard. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On February 06 2015 07:25 Souma wrote: Is the substitute a professional? No? Then the rule as it is now does not apply to them. Not sure why it's so confusing. Once again, if a law states, 'You must be 21 or over to drink alcohol,' are you going to ask, 'What if you're 20? What if you're 20 but you're with a group of 21-year-olds? What if you're 20 but... you aren't even drinking alcohol?' You don't have to explicitly mention a group to get a direct implication across. I think what you guys are asking for is not clarification on whether or not a professional can do this or that, but whether non-professionals can do this or that, and as far as Valve is concerned, they cannot and will not regulate non-pros as they explicitly left them out. Seems pretty straight forward to me. And for the record, "semi-pro" is still a pro in this regard. No, what seems pretty straight-forward to me is that bigtime skin gamblers can make more money off a single match than a 'pro' who isn't getting anything to participate yet its the 'pro' who is putting in the time to get better and improve to the detriment of the rest of their life. Watch the film 'Eight Men Out,' by John Sayles. Until players are being paid fairly or at least at a minimum level, this kind of stuff is going to continue. Placing the blame squarely on the players when the entire system is fucked up doesn't fix anything. Valve needs to recognize this. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
The vast majority of professionals recognize that throwing away your career for skins is one of the stupidest decisions you can make, and that's because there is a lot more benefit to being a pro than gambling. Jeezes dude, exaggerate much? | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On February 06 2015 07:51 Souma wrote: ... pros don't get anything to participate? What...? The vast majority of professionals recognize that throwing away your career for skins is one of the stupidest decisions you can make, and that's because there is a lot more benefit to being a pro than gambling. Jeezes dude, exaggerate much? Me exaggerating? More like you. Something has to be a 'career' before you can throw it away. Despite the recent growth of esports, most players still are not getting paid fair salaries yet people can bet on their matches and make money? Thats fucked up. ex-IBP was never paid a salary. Any which way you cut it they were not pros with careers, they were hobbyists with sponsors. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On February 06 2015 06:07 Souma wrote: Seems to be clear to me, especially with the dictionary definitions. Pros = people receiving some kind of financial or other form of reimbursement from sponsoring organizations for their time playing the game. Certainly you are not actually telling me you don't know what a professional is... You should know what a professional is at this age. If they didn't bring up non-professionals, why in the world are you asking about it? If a law says, "Minors below the age of 21 are not allowed to drink," are you really going to ask, "What if they are 22?" Seems to me like you're just making it confusing for yourself. Uh no, it's not clear what a professional is at all, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. Frankly speaking, an "esports" pro and a professional as understood by the vast majority of the population are two different things, as well as that obviously they are not neccessarily two distinct terms either as we who are involved in cs go subscribe different meanings to the definition of a professional. However, that said, it is a basic standard of behaviour that peolpe involved in the playing and managing the game should be refraining themselves from gambling on the results of their games in the first place, and it is an astonishing oversight by Valve not to make a statement declaring that, as opposed to responding to the inevitable matchfixing scandal which occured. | ||
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RagequitBM
Canada2270 Posts
I feel like in this case, professional should not mean what it means in a literal sense, but rather players on pro/invite level leagues. Very strange that you randomly attack someone with words like "you should know what professional means at your age" when in a budding scene, professional means something completely different. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On February 06 2015 07:55 johnbongham wrote: Me exaggerating? More like you. Something has to be a 'career' before you can throw it away. Despite the recent growth of esports, most players still are not getting paid fair salaries yet people can bet on their matches and make money? Thats fucked up. ex-IBP was never paid a salary. Any which way you cut it they were not pros with careers, they were hobbyists with sponsors. And where does it say that it has to be specifically a career in which you receive a salary to be considered a pro? Have you never heard of... professional poker players? This is what I mean. It's not confusing at all; it's you guys not knowing what is considered a professional and are trying to press the notion that in its current state, a professional is some ambiguous entity. It's really not. I have no idea how I'm the one exaggerating when you say something like: Something has to be a 'career' before you can throw it away. Really? Here, let me go throw away this dirty napkin on my desk, brb. Denial is a semi-pro team, hence they are professionals in this situation, as I mentioned above. They are reimbursed in a way that non-professionals aren't, even if they don't have an actual salary, and a major part of their lives is dedicated to playing the game to win tournaments and prize money. If you take the definitions of "professional" that were linked, it's quite obvious what is considered a pro and what is not. NOW THE ACTUAL PROBLEM is whether or not that definition is fair and whether or not Valve's rules are fair. That is an ENTIRELY different discussion. But this whole 'I don't know what a professional is' or 'Valve's statement isn't clear' thing hurts my head. | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
On February 06 2015 00:27 Erik.TheRed wrote: And Valve has done nothing to outline clear and definite repercussions for individuals that do break what is currently just a "stern suggestion". Pretty much this. This just seems like valve saying "please don't bet we really don't want to have to deal with this." | ||
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