A fan of Brood War may recall the Savior Match Fixing Scandal of 2010 and refer to it as the darkest moment of the scene's history. The unprecedented magnitude of the incident, which implicated several well-known professional Brood War players, including one of the best players to ever touch the game, left the entire community, from fan to team owner, entirely baffled. At the time, there were little who knew how to appropriately handle a situation that would leave a permanent stain on the scene. What matches were fixed? Was this player actually playing his best during this game? This player wasn't playing up to par that night; did he also throw?
Countless questions circulated amongst the minds of a skeptical community, and the most successful esport at the time began to crumble beneath the suspicion.
Now here we are, almost five years later, in a situation that may seem similar at first glance, but different in both scale and implications. Nevertheless, the circumstances are dire for a scene that seemed primed for imminent growth.
As many may already know, Valve released an official statement regarding the match-fixing incident between the former iBUYPOWER and NetcodeGuides squads that was cracked open by The Daily Dot journalist, Richard Lewis. Published with their statement was their decision to ban the perpetrators from all official Valve-sponsored events, which naturally includes every major $250,000 tournament. The list of convicted offenders is as follows:
Duc "cud" Pham (ex-semi-pro) Casey Foster (co-owner of NetcodeGuides) Derek "dboorn" Boorn (ex-Torqued) Sam "DaZeD" Marine (ex-iBP and co-owner of NetcodeGuides) Braxton "swag" Pierce (ex-iBP) Kevin "AZK" Larivière (ex-iBP) Joshua "steel" Nissan (ex-iBP, Torqued)
The consequences of the ordeal will leave an enormous hole in the North American Counter-Strike: Global Offensive community as it continues to struggle to foster talent capable of rivaling Europe's. Three of the players involved represented the former iBUYPOWER squad who many expected to get scooped up by Evil Geniuses before the scandal made headlines. In them, North America will not only lose their current best team, but also the best in-game leader of the region in DaZeD, the young star swag, and a player who consistently performs against the very best the world has to offer, AZK. Additionally, the up-and-coming Torqued lineup will lose their own in-game leader and the highly regarded cameraman, steel, and another core member in dboorn.
To say the aftermath will set the region back a step may be an understatement, but the response from Valve, who took it upon themselves to further investigate the matter, was not only appropriate, but necessary. Following the cheating scandals that bore witness to professional European players being ousted and others barraged with accusations as a result, the global community has yet to fully recover from a skepticism that continues to swallow stream chats and forums alike.
When both of the above incidents are taken in tandem instead of separately, the situation begins to more similarly reflect that of the Brood War match-fixing scandal, and it is quite possibly one reason why Valve decided to take a more proactive role this time around. Rather than let the scene wither away due to a few bad apples, Valve took the required measures to ensure that the integrity of the scene remains intact, and thus supplied the community with another chance to flourish. Unlike Brood War, which experienced a steep decline due to reasons unrelated to the scandal, CS:GO is still an adolescent capable of growth spurts. With this involvement, and the hope that Valve further dedicates resources to ensure a stage for "integrity and fair play," the drama is sure to be put behind us, and North America can continue its quest to foster more talent for a chance at a championship on European soil.
A huge thanks must be given to Lewis, who published the initial story and spent an incredible amount of effort bringing it to the public's eye. Given the apathetic nature of the esports scene in general, the man must be praised for the initiative he undertook to break a story that many first looked upon with apprehensive eyes.
There are still many questions up in the air. The lone iBUYPOWER member not to be sanctioned, Tyler "Skadoodle" Latham, along with the ex-iBP stand-in, Spencer "Hiko" Martin, are now teamless. Both offer a plethora of experience and skill and are sure to find a new home soon, but with whom is a hot topic that will undoubtedly be speculated upon by the community in the coming days. Will Valve ever lift their bans for the convicted players, or will they keep them intact for life? Who will now take the former iBP squad's position as the best team in North America? Will it be CLG, C9, Team Liquid, or perhaps a lesser known team? When will we ever see a North American team in the finals of an international LAN tournament again? And, of course, who will observe our matches now that steel's gone?
There is something that must be said. This is the time for the community to show their resilience. This is the time for North American fraggers to feel the hunger. This is the time for stars to rise, to use this tribulation as a stepping stone, and to take a hold of the limelight that has presented itself. With matters now behind us, the future looks promising.
This is quite sad news to see but the biggest thing to take from this is that we can make amends to what happened and move forward, something that brood war couldn't do.
As much as this whole situation sucks for the NA scene, I do agree with the somewhat optimistic spirit of the article. I feel like it's good to have these scandals in the infancy of an esport (rather than later on), so that strict rules can be established early on, and the scene can grow hand-in-hand with strong emphasis on competitive integrity. Aside from that, it's certainly going to be exciting to see how the NA scene rebuilds itself. Hope to see lots of "fresh blood" flow into the NA scene.
On January 27 2015 11:00 wun4 wrote: As much as this whole situation sucks for the NA scene, I do agree with the somewhat optimistic spirit of the article. I feel like it's good to have these scandals in the infancy of an esport (rather than later on), so that strict rules can be established early on, and the scene can grow hand-in-hand with strong emphasis on competitive integrity. Aside from that, it's certainly going to be exciting to see how the NA scene rebuilds itself. Hope to see lots of "fresh blood" flow into the NA scene.
This is a good point; I think by announcing it officially it will deter any future potential professional players from doing things like this. Also for valve to comment officially is notable, a company who is by custom hands-off. It may signal the acknowledgement for a more regular involvement with the pro scene in the future.
Kinda shocked to see AZK in there and Skadoodle being the only one from ex-IBP not being sanctioned. How could 1 player from the whole team not being sanctioned? Did I miss something somewhere? I mean, they did throw the match, all 5 players so I kinda fail to understand why he isn't sanctioned like everyone else?
On January 27 2015 11:19 lestye wrote: I can't believe they did something so reckless when they're scene and future were looking so bright.
Kids get greedy and think they're invincible. Put it up to the fact the eSports community is still quite young and there's not many mature figures in the community.
On January 27 2015 11:36 DPK wrote: Kinda shocked to see AZK in there and Skadoodle being the only one from ex-IBP not being sanctioned. How could 1 player from the whole team not being sanctioned? Did I miss something somewhere? I mean, they did throw the match, all 5 players so I kinda fail to understand why he isn't sanctioned like everyone else?
It's likely that there wasn't any data to indicate that he profited from it.
On January 27 2015 11:36 DPK wrote: Kinda shocked to see AZK in there and Skadoodle being the only one from ex-IBP not being sanctioned. How could 1 player from the whole team not being sanctioned? Did I miss something somewhere? I mean, they did throw the match, all 5 players so I kinda fail to understand why he isn't sanctioned like everyone else?
It's likely that there wasn't any data to indicate that he profited from it.
Yeah that's what I thought but it doesn't make much sense IMO. Skadoodle did throw the match like everyone else on his team even if he didn't profited from it. He should get sanctioned like everyone else. It only shows that Valve is willing to let anyone throw a match but they wont' be sanctioned if they don't bet/profited from it, which is incredibly stupid.
On January 27 2015 11:36 DPK wrote: Kinda shocked to see AZK in there and Skadoodle being the only one from ex-IBP not being sanctioned. How could 1 player from the whole team not being sanctioned? Did I miss something somewhere? I mean, they did throw the match, all 5 players so I kinda fail to understand why he isn't sanctioned like everyone else?
It's likely that there wasn't any data to indicate that he profited from it.
Yeah that's what I thought but it doesn't make much sense IMO. Skadoodle did throw the match like everyone else on his team even if he didn't profited from it. He should get sanctioned like everyone else. It only shows that Valve is willing to let anyone throw a match but they wont' be sanctioned if they don't bet/profited from it, which is incredibly stupid.
It's possible the other four put in a good word for him. Something along the lines of, "Oh he didn't actually want to throw but since we were all going to throw anyway he couldn't exactly play seriously," or something. I dunno, but I doubt Valve made the decision carelessly, considering they put this much effort into it all.
Well its very possible wasnt trying to throw that match in the first place. And from what I can deduce from valve's blog, they didnt find anything suspicious about his trade history. Maybe he knew about it after the fact, but its very much possible he did not know until then. And you can't really blame him (aka banning him) for not exposing his teammates.
On January 27 2015 11:36 DPK wrote: Kinda shocked to see AZK in there and Skadoodle being the only one from ex-IBP not being sanctioned. How could 1 player from the whole team not being sanctioned? Did I miss something somewhere? I mean, they did throw the match, all 5 players so I kinda fail to understand why he isn't sanctioned like everyone else?
It's possible they seriously didn't know, there is no proof for them (they showed no profit for it). They could have actually tried in the match and if they did it doesn't matter when 4 others aren't.
Regardless I don't understand why they are so dumb to do it. Hopefully doesn't happen again.
You're all bringing up valid points and after reading them, I'm not sure what to think anymore. I still feel like whenever a team do something fishy, the whole team should be sanctioned no matter what, so stuff like that doesn't happen anymore or at least, it should discourage players who might be thinking about doing something like that. By letting 1 guy get away with it (even if he was legit), it might give some people bad ideas to do something similar when some players start to think about retiring.
Regardless, I'm mostly pissed at AZK. I would've never thought that he would be willing to risk his cs career over some stupid stuff like skins. That guy is one of the best NA player and I was proud that one guy from Montreal was a pro cs player for so long.
On January 27 2015 16:28 DPK wrote: You're all bringing up valid points and after reading them, I'm not sure what to think anymore. I still feel like whenever a team do something fishy, the whole team should be sanctioned no matter what, so stuff like that doesn't happen anymore or at least, it should discourage players who might be thinking about doing something like that. By letting 1 guy get away with it (even if he was legit), it might give some people bad ideas to do something similar when some players start to think about retiring.
Regardless, I'm mostly pissed at AZK. I would've never thought that he would be willing to risk his cs career over some stupid stuff like skins. That guy is one of the best NA player and I was proud that one guy from Montreal was a pro cs player for so long.
No way, that wouldn't be fair. To punish an innocent player just because of what his team did, that would be ridiculous. Whether he knew about it or not who knows, but he shouldn't be punished just because his team did something stupid that he wasn't apart of (assuming he wasn't). There's no way to prove it and just not fair in that situation.
as someone who really, really, really, dislikes matchfixing and matchfixers, I still agree with blade55555. You can't do stuff like that to people who are not involved and not responsible.
I hope Skadoodle doesn't continue to play with mOE after ClutchCon... After what just happened, you'd think he'd have a better judge of character.
He's probably forced into that decision since it's so close to clutchcon and every other team has complete rosters. Anyways , Moe's a decent player even if he is a bit of rager.
I hope Skadoodle doesn't continue to play with mOE after ClutchCon... After what just happened, you'd think he'd have a better judge of character.
He's probably forced into that decision since it's so close to clutchcon and every other team has complete rosters. Anyways , Moe's a decent player even if he is a bit of rager.
I hope Skadoodle doesn't continue to play with mOE after ClutchCon... After what just happened, you'd think he'd have a better judge of character.
He's probably forced into that decision since it's so close to clutchcon and every other team has complete rosters. Anyways , Moe's a decent player even if he is a bit of rager.
Hope some players will step up and rise to the pro level to replace them. Also, may that be a lesson for these yet to be pro that integrity is key to a sports scene.
I don't see this as a particularly large blow to the CS:GO scene or community as a whole, I see it as a growing pain. A side effect of a community that has matured faster than its players. Every sport has cheating - even the NFL, possibly the most polished sporting league in the world (sorry Premier leagues) has cheating scandals fairly often.
Gaming, in general, tends to attract players of a certain attitude at the top ranks until it is reigned in and sponsors get involved. You'll have these extreme personalities, which often manifest as elitism or "eThug" behaviors, which eventually become a minority once an Esport is popularized and more corporate. Players such as the ones banned for this gambling scandal were clearly not mature enough or prepared for the spotlight of a major sporting community - the next crop will be.
On January 27 2015 16:28 DPK wrote: You're all bringing up valid points and after reading them, I'm not sure what to think anymore. I still feel like whenever a team do something fishy, the whole team should be sanctioned no matter what, so stuff like that doesn't happen anymore or at least, it should discourage players who might be thinking about doing something like that. By letting 1 guy get away with it (even if he was legit), it might give some people bad ideas to do something similar when some players start to think about retiring.
Regardless, I'm mostly pissed at AZK. I would've never thought that he would be willing to risk his cs career over some stupid stuff like skins. That guy is one of the best NA player and I was proud that one guy from Montreal was a pro cs player for so long.
No way, that wouldn't be fair. To punish an innocent player just because of what his team did, that would be ridiculous. Whether he knew about it or not who knows, but he shouldn't be punished just because his team did something stupid that he wasn't apart of (assuming he wasn't). There's no way to prove it and just not fair in that situation.
When it comes to the real world, it would be fair. When you're involved in something illegal, whether or not you did really take part of it doesn't really matter. At the minute you're involved in something illegal with other people and you get caught, you're as guilty as the people you're with, even more when you didn't do anything to stop it. That's how the law works, at least in my country.
For example, if I get caught with a friend who's carrying weed with him and I didn't knew and/or didn't tell me, it doesn't matter. The cops will see me as guilty as my friend, even if I have nothing on me. Just like if your friend try to pass some illegal stuff at the borders in your car and he didn't tell you, you both get caught, will they let you go because you didn't knew/didn't want to take part of it? I highly doubt it. I can give you many more examples.
On January 27 2015 16:28 DPK wrote: You're all bringing up valid points and after reading them, I'm not sure what to think anymore. I still feel like whenever a team do something fishy, the whole team should be sanctioned no matter what, so stuff like that doesn't happen anymore or at least, it should discourage players who might be thinking about doing something like that. By letting 1 guy get away with it (even if he was legit), it might give some people bad ideas to do something similar when some players start to think about retiring.
Regardless, I'm mostly pissed at AZK. I would've never thought that he would be willing to risk his cs career over some stupid stuff like skins. That guy is one of the best NA player and I was proud that one guy from Montreal was a pro cs player for so long.
No way, that wouldn't be fair. To punish an innocent player just because of what his team did, that would be ridiculous. Whether he knew about it or not who knows, but he shouldn't be punished just because his team did something stupid that he wasn't apart of (assuming he wasn't). There's no way to prove it and just not fair in that situation.
When it comes to the real world, it would be fair. When you're involved in something illegal, whether or not you did really take part of it doesn't really matter. At the minute you're involved in something illegal with other people and you get caught, you're as guilty as the people you're with, even more when you didn't do anything to stop it. That's how the law works, at least in my country.
For example, if I get caught with a friend who's carrying weed with him and I didn't knew and/or didn't tell me, it doesn't matter. The cops will see me as guilty as my friend, even if I have nothing on me. Just like if your friend try to pass some illegal stuff at the borders in your car and he didn't tell you, you both get caught, will they let you go because you didn't knew/didn't want to take part of it? I highly doubt it. I can give you many more examples.
What?
That's exactly how it works in the real world. Unless you enter into an illegal act willingly, you will very rarely get punished for the illegal actions of others.
If your friend has weed and you don't know, nothing will happen to you. Of course if you have a history of possession that is different but without that history they will likely let you go. The only exception being if you are driving and your buddy drops the weed in the car, then as the driver it is your responsibility as you are supposed to know what is in your vehicle at all times.
If they can't prove the fifth man did it, then there is nothing to be done for punishment ...
On January 27 2015 16:28 DPK wrote: You're all bringing up valid points and after reading them, I'm not sure what to think anymore. I still feel like whenever a team do something fishy, the whole team should be sanctioned no matter what, so stuff like that doesn't happen anymore or at least, it should discourage players who might be thinking about doing something like that. By letting 1 guy get away with it (even if he was legit), it might give some people bad ideas to do something similar when some players start to think about retiring.
Regardless, I'm mostly pissed at AZK. I would've never thought that he would be willing to risk his cs career over some stupid stuff like skins. That guy is one of the best NA player and I was proud that one guy from Montreal was a pro cs player for so long.
No way, that wouldn't be fair. To punish an innocent player just because of what his team did, that would be ridiculous. Whether he knew about it or not who knows, but he shouldn't be punished just because his team did something stupid that he wasn't apart of (assuming he wasn't). There's no way to prove it and just not fair in that situation.
When it comes to the real world, it would be fair. When you're involved in something illegal, whether or not you did really take part of it doesn't really matter. At the minute you're involved in something illegal with other people and you get caught, you're as guilty as the people you're with, even more when you didn't do anything to stop it. That's how the law works, at least in my country.
For example, if I get caught with a friend who's carrying weed with him and I didn't knew and/or didn't tell me, it doesn't matter. The cops will see me as guilty as my friend, even if I have nothing on me. Just like if your friend try to pass some illegal stuff at the borders in your car and he didn't tell you, you both get caught, will they let you go because you didn't knew/didn't want to take part of it? I highly doubt it. I can give you many more examples.
What?
That's exactly how it works in the real world. Unless you enter into an illegal act willingly, you will very rarely get punished for the illegal actions of others.
If your friend has weed and you don't know, nothing will happen to you. Of course if you have a history of possession that is different but without that history they will likely let you go. The only exception being if you are driving and your buddy drops the weed in the car, then as the driver it is your responsibility as you are supposed to know what is in your vehicle at all times.
If they can't prove the fifth man did it, then there is nothing to be done for punishment ...
I'm curious how you think this situation is different from the weed in car situation you just made. If he is playing on the team with these guys either he knew about it or he should have known about it.
So innocent until proven guilty does not mean anything to you? what the hell man. If there is nothing proving hiko and skadoodle were involved/knew there is no way they should be sanctioned in any way.... That is pretty much the common ground on which most legal systems in the world work.
On January 27 2015 16:28 DPK wrote: You're all bringing up valid points and after reading them, I'm not sure what to think anymore. I still feel like whenever a team do something fishy, the whole team should be sanctioned no matter what, so stuff like that doesn't happen anymore or at least, it should discourage players who might be thinking about doing something like that. By letting 1 guy get away with it (even if he was legit), it might give some people bad ideas to do something similar when some players start to think about retiring.
Regardless, I'm mostly pissed at AZK. I would've never thought that he would be willing to risk his cs career over some stupid stuff like skins. That guy is one of the best NA player and I was proud that one guy from Montreal was a pro cs player for so long.
No way, that wouldn't be fair. To punish an innocent player just because of what his team did, that would be ridiculous. Whether he knew about it or not who knows, but he shouldn't be punished just because his team did something stupid that he wasn't apart of (assuming he wasn't). There's no way to prove it and just not fair in that situation.
When it comes to the real world, it would be fair. When you're involved in something illegal, whether or not you did really take part of it doesn't really matter. At the minute you're involved in something illegal with other people and you get caught, you're as guilty as the people you're with, even more when you didn't do anything to stop it. That's how the law works, at least in my country.
For example, if I get caught with a friend who's carrying weed with him and I didn't knew and/or didn't tell me, it doesn't matter. The cops will see me as guilty as my friend, even if I have nothing on me. Just like if your friend try to pass some illegal stuff at the borders in your car and he didn't tell you, you both get caught, will they let you go because you didn't knew/didn't want to take part of it? I highly doubt it. I can give you many more examples.
Those are not analogous situations. Unlike in the situation where a cop finds weed on your friend, Valve can directly see who gained/profited from the match fixing. The other teammates did not or they would be banned as well.
Total and uneven overreaction from valve. Matchfixing has been proven in the european scene in the past and nothing was done. This singling out of a group of NA players because richard lewis wrote an article about it is simply ridiculous. Valve created the skin situation and has done NOTHING to regulate third parties like csgolounge and online betting. This is valve's own fault for not getting involved earlier and making clear the consequences. For valve to all of a sudden take a strong moral stance to the detriment of players like Swag with some lifetime ban bullshit should be called out more strongly by the community. A 1 year ban is fine, but lifetime? Sorry, this isn't similar to broodwar at all. The ex-IBP team were not being paid a salary and were not beholden to any professional agreements like a kespa player might be. If you want your game's top players to act completely 100% professional you should pay them like one. Older players like dazed and steel, ok ban them, but a 17 year old under the influence of his older teammates? I call bullshit. This is a shitty precedent and its basically valve trying to save face for not taking any steps to prevent this from the getgo.
If euro teams have managed to match fix without any consequences to them, it speaks more to the incompetence in Europe than the harshness of Valve in handling this IMO.
On January 28 2015 08:19 yamato77 wrote: It's not a shitty precedent at all. A shitty precedent is letting them off easy.
A 1 year ban for betting on digital not tangible objects is letting them off easy? There is no nuance here for each individual's level of involvement either. There has been zero response from valve in regards to the europeans that have been caught matchfixing. It is a garbage precedent in addition to being uneven/unfair. NA cs just took a big hit. I am as happy as anyone that liquid got involved in csgo, but you think a team with a roster like liquid is EVER going to be competitive when teams like ex-IBP barely ever peaked then you are out of your mind. Swag was the future of NA cs, the kid is a monster at this game and his career has been ended by 1 shitty decision that was probably made under pressure from his older teammates. That is messed up. He wasn't even getting a salary. He wasn't even technically a pro. He PAID HIS OWN MONEY to compete in esea and cevo. Don't expect players to act like pros when they aren't being treated or compensated like one. Don't let third party companies allow your user's to bet and gamble YOUR skins without putting any firm rules and/or consequences in place. This is of valve's own doing and for them to accept zero blame for this situation is ridiculous. Valve has always treated the cs community with ambivalence and disdain yet now they want to pretend like they are in a position to dictate to the entire community. Maybe you haven't been around long enough to know that.
100% certain that most people who agree with the lifetime ban's would have probably acted in the same way Swag did if they happened to be in his shoes.
Spare me the digital not tangible objects BS for the love of god man. You can easily, easily sell your items for real life money. Some knives are worth multiple thousands of dollars. Enough to buy a car. Also there are real money betting websites.
On January 28 2015 09:11 Djzapz wrote: Spare me the digital not tangible objects BS for the love of god man. You can easily, easily sell your items for real life money. Some knives are worth multiple thousands of dollars. Enough to buy a car. Also there are real money betting websites.
They are only worth real life money because valve purposely limits the quantities available. Before csgo, community developed skins were free to download and install as much as you wanted. Valve created this situation with skins and put absolutely no checks or rules or consequences in place to prevent or deter this kind of behavior. Now they want to ban players from competing for life for abusing a THIRD PARTY gambling website that should not even exist without Valve's consent. Valve allows csgolounge bots to exist > valve allows csgolounge to exist. Valve has done nothing up until this point to get it under control because valve is making mega millions off the csgo fanbase for selling ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of any real value to them. Then they throw a couple hundred thousand at tournaments and the community eats it up as being so nice of them while dota2 is a f2p game with a 5 million dollar developer funded tournament. This is just more of valve shitting on the cs scene as they have done so historically. They paid 0 attention to csgo after release until they discovered they could milk the fanbase for $$$ via skins. Shame on them and shame on the community for letting them go unchecked for their negligence.
This is all irrelevant. You seemed to make the argument that match fixing is no big issue because the items that are being traded are "digital". Well they're worth real money. You can talk all you want about third party skins that are downloadable from the workshop, it doesn't change anything about the fact that the skins are worth money and IBP behaved anticompetitively by throwing a game for personal gain - monetary or otherwise.
So the BS about 3rd party and workshop is completely beside the point. They threw a game for profit, the profit is very much real.
As for the rest of your arguments, I don't think any of it rings true tbh. CSGO is being monetized in a way which is harmless to the competition. It's better than what most games do. Valve allows me to buy an AK47 even if I don't buy skins.
On January 28 2015 09:46 Djzapz wrote: This is all irrelevant. You seemed to make the argument that match fixing is no big issue because the items that are being traded are "digital". Well they're worth real money. You can talk all you want about third party skins that are downloadable from the workshop, it doesn't change anything about the fact that the skins are worth money and IBP behaved anticompetitively by throwing a game for personal gain - monetary or otherwise.
So the BS about 3rd party and workshop is completely beside the point. They threw a game for profit, the profit is very much real.
As for the rest of your arguments, I don't think any of it rings true tbh. CSGO is being monetized in a way which is harmless to the competition. It's better than what most games do. Valve allows me to buy an AK47 even if I don't buy skins.
Uhhhh, obviously not!!! I don't think matchfixing is ok and should go unpunished! I think the bans are EXCESSIVE and I think valve is deflecting blame for the situation because they deserve at least some of it. Swag is a dude who has played cs since he was like 11 or 12 and made a bad decision to throw a game when he was 17 for skins all the way back in august. Here we are 4 and a half months later and richard lewis writes an article and all of a sudden valve is here to save the day? Are you kidding me. Get a clue! If valve had said in the past that matchfixing for skins = lifetime ban than I would be more than ok with the punishment, but valve has let multiple instances of matchfixing slide over the past year and now they all of a sudden want to bring the hammer down like they are some kind of perfect god who played no role in this exact situation developing.
On January 28 2015 08:19 yamato77 wrote: It's not a shitty precedent at all. A shitty precedent is letting them off easy.
There has been zero response from valve in regards to the europeans that have been caught matchfixing.
Fair enough, things need to be done with EU.
NA cs just took a big hit. I am as happy as anyone that liquid got involved in csgo, but you think a team with a roster like liquid is EVER going to be competitive when teams like ex-IBP barely ever peaked then you are out of your mind.
You're right, but everyone starts somewhere & too early to tell.
Swag was the future of NA cs, the kid is a monster at this game and his career has been ended by 1 shitty decision that was probably made under pressure from his older teammates.
Sucks.
He wasn't even getting a salary. He wasn't even technically a pro. He PAID HIS OWN MONEY to compete in esea and cevo. Don't expect players to act like pros when they aren't being treated or compensated like one.
What does this even mean.... no one asked him to pay his own money to play cevo/esea. He willingly risked it to try and win Cevo/esea (he did win something, no?). You make it seems like swag is playing competitively for free...
Don't let third party companies allow your user's to bet and gamble YOUR skins without putting any firm rules and/or consequences in place. This is of valve's own doing and for them to accept zero blame for this situation is ridiculous. Valve has always treated the cs community with ambivalence and disdain yet now they want to pretend like they are in a position to dictate to the entire community.
Its never been about the skins, the skins are proof of match-fixing. Match-fixing is unacceptable whether there is a written rule on it or not. Valve punished them because they conspired to match-fixing. Read their blog post title: Fairplay and integrity.
100% certain that most people who agree with the lifetime ban's would have probably acted in the same way Swag did if they happened to be in his shoes.
NA cs just took a big hit. I am as happy as anyone that liquid got involved in csgo, but you think a team with a roster like liquid is EVER going to be competitive when teams like ex-IBP barely ever peaked then you are out of your mind.
You're right, but everyone starts somewhere & too early to tell.
Swag was the future of NA cs, the kid is a monster at this game and his career has been ended by 1 shitty decision that was probably made under pressure from his older teammates.
He wasn't even getting a salary. He wasn't even technically a pro. He PAID HIS OWN MONEY to compete in esea and cevo. Don't expect players to act like pros when they aren't being treated or compensated like one.
What does this even mean.... no one asked him to pay his own money to play cevo/esea. He willingly risked it to try and win Cevo/esea (he did win something, no?). You make it seems like swag is playing competitively for free...
Don't let third party companies allow your user's to bet and gamble YOUR skins without putting any firm rules and/or consequences in place. This is of valve's own doing and for them to accept zero blame for this situation is ridiculous. Valve has always treated the cs community with ambivalence and disdain yet now they want to pretend like they are in a position to dictate to the entire community.
Its never been about the skins, the skins are proof of match-fixing. Match-fixing is unacceptable whether there is a written rule on it or not. Valve punished them because they conspired to match-fixing. Read their blog post title: Fairplay and integrity.
100% certain that most people who agree with the lifetime ban's would have probably acted in the same way Swag did if they happened to be in his shoes.
lol what, how do you even know this?
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
I agree with the bans and everything. Only thing i would maybe change is to allow steel to be obs. He does a really good job imho. The ban about not playing should still be valid.
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
With all the DDoS, matching fixing, and ping issues, I hope people will stop placing bets on online matches. Personally I only bet in the playoffs of major LANs or the finals of LAN tournaments. I only get a few hundred dollars every few months but I'm perfectly fine with that.
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating.
edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting.
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating.
edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting.
Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand?
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating.
edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting.
Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand?
On January 28 2015 08:12 johnbongham wrote: Total and uneven overreaction from valve. Matchfixing has been proven in the european scene in the past and nothing was done. This singling out of a group of NA players because richard lewis wrote an article about it is simply ridiculous. Valve created the skin situation and has done NOTHING to regulate third parties like csgolounge and online betting. This is valve's own fault for not getting involved earlier and making clear the consequences. For valve to all of a sudden take a strong moral stance to the detriment of players like Swag with some lifetime ban bullshit should be called out more strongly by the community. A 1 year ban is fine, but lifetime? Sorry, this isn't similar to broodwar at all. The ex-IBP team were not being paid a salary and were not beholden to any professional agreements like a kespa player might be. If you want your game's top players to act completely 100% professional you should pay them like one. Older players like dazed and steel, ok ban them, but a 17 year old under the influence of his older teammates? I call bullshit. This is a shitty precedent and its basically valve trying to save face for not taking any steps to prevent this from the getgo.
I could not disagree with you more.
To your first point - What happened in the past is entirely irrelevant to the current discussion. I haven't seen any proof of matchfixing and, especially, gambling on the results in the EU scene lately. This isn't an issue with Valve treating NA any different from EU, it's that this is the first scandal since CS:GO had it's massive 2014 explosion into a top tier Esport. They need to be a sanctioning body, and have responded exactly as they should have.
To your second, this issue has nothing to do with regulating third party gambling sites. It has to do with professional players and teams *betting on the outcome of their own games*! That's literally one of the least-ethical and most-damning practices that can ever happen in professional sports.
To your third - this is not Valve's fault for not "making clear the consequences". If skins had real money value, what these players did would be *illegal*. Like, "get arrested" illegal. Further, the ToS states that Valve will not tolerate cheating (i.e. match fixing). Match fixing is extremely harshly regulated in every other competitive sport and game - the players simply cannot play the "oh we didn't know" card.
Top players are paid via tournament winnings, and will likely be paid more and more as the sport grows in popularity. Low salary is completely different from expecting ethical actions of your participants.
Honestly, I don't think you said one sentence that has merit in this discussion. But I'm glad we have a forum where you have a voice.
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating.
edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting.
Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand?
Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf?
The logic does not follow *at all*, lol. I addressed it in my previous post.
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating.
edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting.
Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand?
Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf?
SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself.
"On April 15, 2011, in U. S. v. Scheinberg et al. (10 Cr. 336), three online poker companies were indicted for violating U.S. laws that prohibit the acceptance of any financial instrument in connection with unlawful Internet gambling, that is, Internet gambling that involves a "bet or wager" that is illegal under the laws of the state where the bet is made. The indictment alleges that the companies used fraudulent methods to evade this law, for example, by disguising online gambling payments as purchases of merchandise"
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating.
edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting.
Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand?
Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf?
SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself.
Why bother calling it illegal anyway. There are plenty of things that are illegal that shouldn't be, so it holds no bearing on whether or not it should happen.
I don't think the betting system is shady anyway, betting pretty much happens in every sport, there are downsides to it, but you have to deal with those downsides rather than to blame the betting scene entirely. "Blame the player not the game", is that not a common phrase? I think it applies in this context.
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating.
edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting.
Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand?
Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf?
SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself.
Why bother calling it illegal anyway. There are plenty of things that are illegal that shouldn't be, so it holds no bearing on whether or not it should happen.
I don't think the betting system is shady anyway, betting pretty much happens in every sport, there are downsides to it, but you have to deal with those downsides rather than to blame the betting scene entirely. "Blame the player not the game", is that not a common phrase? I think it applies in this context.
Yes, legal betting is all fine a good. Creating and supporting a system where 12 year olds can gamble online is not. The IBP players benefited from an illegal activity, Valve is doing the same.
On January 28 2015 10:29 iKill[ShocK] wrote: [quote] Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating.
edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting.
Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand?
Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf?
SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself.
Why bother calling it illegal anyway. There are plenty of things that are illegal that shouldn't be, so it holds no bearing on whether or not it should happen.
I don't think the betting system is shady anyway, betting pretty much happens in every sport, there are downsides to it, but you have to deal with those downsides rather than to blame the betting scene entirely. "Blame the player not the game", is that not a common phrase? I think it applies in this context.
Yes, legal betting is all fine a good. Creating and supporting a system where 12 year olds can gamble online is not. The IBP players benefited from an illegal activity, Valve is doing the same.
No, 12 year olds cannot gamble online unless their parents allow them to, or they bet the items that are worth a few pennies that they've accumulated over the months. You're making the very old demagogic argument soccer moms make "think of the children" when it's a non-issue that you've made up to support your side of the argument.
Children are put in a society where there are toxic products, cars driving around, cars they could get the keys to and drive around if they wanted, danger at every corner. If you'll tell me that children are at risk of better heaps of skin away, I'll ask you how, how were they put in a position where they could "lose" so much, and how is it the fault of Valve rather than the parents.
At some point people are going to have to take responsibility, and this comes from me, a guy firmly on the left. Let's be reasonable. I don't even bet on CSGO lounge but come on "THE CHILDREN ARE BETTING" and "SOON THE HOMOSEXUALS WILL MARRY DOGS" what the fuck even.
IBP benefited from an activity which's legality is irrelevant, it's immoral. Valve is doing its thing. The non-nefarious bets should not preclude other users of sites such as CSGOlounge from betting because yes there is a risk involved and it should be dealt with rather than deleted entirely. Arguments like yours are why we can't have nice things.
Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane.
On January 29 2015 00:07 DEN1ED wrote: Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane.
I like to think of myself as a nuanced person in most matters that actually matter... I just unfortunately don't view this as one of them.
As for the "quite a bit of money you accumulate", it's steam money, it's not money you've earned, and it's money you wouldn't have had without skins or if you played another game. You can bet it away. Whatever. It's bad if you buy crap and you bet it, but that's a parent's responsibility.
On January 29 2015 00:07 DEN1ED wrote: Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane.
As for the "quite a bit of money you accumulate", it's steam money, it's not money you've earned, and it's money you wouldn't have had without skins or if you played another game. You can bet it away. Whatever. It's bad if you buy crap and you bet it, but that's a parent's responsibility.
And this is exactly the opposite of what kids/young adults should be learning. Gambling addiction is a very real problem and it starts with this kind of fucked up logic.
As far as the bans being excessive, I think that's just a matter of opinion. Personally, I think it is excessive, being that Valve had not set a precedent for the situation. Obviously it is a serious situation, but to pick and choose to act after the fact, rather than before, should allow the players at least a slight bit of leeway. Something along the lines of "since we didn't make this clear, here's a warning. Next time, your banned for life" sort of thing.
It also raises the question as to whether a company such as Valve can or should be creating precedents like this to begin with. A lot off people recall the 322$ Dota2 bet scandal with Solo, which ended up in individual tournament organizers dealing with the situation as they saw fit. When players had issues at TI4, it was Valve's tournament, and they handled it how they saw fit for their particular tournament.
The question it raises is not whether matchfixing is ok, but instead, when does Valve suddenly become an esports commission? I've seen the same problems with other companies such as Blizzard, and when a company that creates games suddenly (and often accidentally) stumbles into a situation where there game becomes sport, they need to to either devote time and effort into either being hands-on to the regulation of said sport, or hands off. Picking and choosing when to be the community's arbiter and when to leave things to the community is putting a very grey area on something that should be very and black or white.
When videogame companies want to start monetizing their games as sports or sporting equipment, then they need to have a plan to regulate, or not to regulate, them as such. To not do so is an incredible disservice to everyone who puts there youth, time, practice, and great effort into trying to make their sport viable.
But valve has let a culture of matchfixing go on for at least a year now with zero "blog posts" and absolutely no warnings against such behavior. Now they step in after an article is written by richard lewis and handpick a couple of scapegoats to feed the community's need for justice. Is valve going to continue investigating all reported incidents of matchfixing? Doesn't seem like it. Why is it ok to anyone that only a select group of players are being punished and this harshly at that? I know, it makes no difference to any joeschmo CSGO player here or anwyhere whether these guys continue to compete or not, but for me, someone who has watched swag since 1.6, this is a ridiculous punishment. Where are the pitchforks for virtuspro, who bet on a match that was already over and done with and they knew the result? I dont see any! Are we going to ban pasha and neo and taz for life next? I dont think it will happen. Why not? Because valve is incompetent and only care when their shit makes the news.
Valve took a step because there's almost glaring proofs (after investigation) that they did indeed conspire to match fix. Yea, they had to pick a few scapegoats, but its not like those scapegoats aren't guilty (they all are). Sucks to sucks. Will Valve keep investigating these allegations? Maybe they don't want to, if thats the point then they made an example of a few players so others don't dare.
VP did not conspire to match fix btw, they simply bet on a game thats OVER and DECIDED. That whole situation was 100% CSGOLounge's fault for leaving that game up.
Yeah ok so betting on a match you know the result of is not shady and lacking integrity? Isn't that what this is about? Knowing the outcome of a match and placing bets on it? What does it matter if it happened yet or not? As far as the rest of the people betting are concerned, it didn't happen yet. The match hadn't been streamed yet because of fear of DDOS. There is no argument to be made for why virtus pro and other european teams haven't been punished AT ALL other than valve being incompetent and uneven in their stance on matchfixing thus far.
betting on a match already over has nothing to do with matchfixing, these are two completely separate things. While the first is indeed not very sportsmanlike it is not illegal and a far cry from conspiring together to fix the outcome of a match for your own profit. Matchfixing in the way exiBP did is on a completely different scale and not comparable to the situation of VP betting on a match that was over already....
Pretty sure what IBP did was not "illegal" either as there was no rules or consequences in place like i have been saying because valve totally blew it by not foreseeing such a thing before it happened. They were fine and dandy making millions in skin money without ever giving thought to how their system could be abused. Valve seriously needs to accept some blame for this entire situation.
Actually yes, yes it is illegal in many countries. The parties involved could take the case to court and IBP could suffer prison sentences if it comes to light that real money was involved. What VP did is weird, thing is you won't see that much in real life (where betting is still possible after the game is played). I don't think you can punish people for that, unless players were asked not to bet by the competition, than the competition can ban players from participating.
edit: Now the reason why Valve don't take this to court and why they take such drastic measures is that because the more attention this gets the more likely the skin system will come under investigation. Thing is the culture around skins is actually pretty shady and I'm pretty sure the parties involved don't have the necessary licenses for betting.
Yeah the culture around skins IS SHADY! What valve is doing is allowing with skins gambling is possibly illegal as well. They have created a monster and have put no restrictions in place to control it and this is what happened. It is bullshit. Valve deserves some of the blame here. Why is that so hard to understand?
Players matchfix ---> Blame valve?! wtf?
SOME. Some is the keyword there. They deserve SOME blame, which I think is true. The entire skin betting system is super shady and potentially illegal itself.
"On April 15, 2011, in U. S. v. Scheinberg et al. (10 Cr. 336), three online poker companies were indicted for violating U.S. laws that prohibit the acceptance of any financial instrument in connection with unlawful Internet gambling, that is, Internet gambling that involves a "bet or wager" that is illegal under the laws of the state where the bet is made. The indictment alleges that the companies used fraudulent methods to evade this law, for example, by disguising online gambling payments as purchases of merchandise"
Sounds a lot like skins....
Whoa whoa whoa, let's settle down here internet lawyers.
A bunch of you replied quickly, so I'm just going to reply to the post that started the tangent off.
Betting skins is *nothing like* internet poker. AT ALL. In the precedent you linked, the companies were allowing people to bet money by disguising the gambling as purchases of merchandise that have real value. Real money value, that you can extract easily into cash.
Skins are opposite. Skins have no intrinsic value. Zero. You cannot take a skin to Walmart and return it for cash. The entire value of trading skins is a *perceived* value by a collector. That's like trading Beanie Babies, or playing marbles for keepsies. You can't even liquidate a large number of skins because you'd drive your own market down.
Valve deserves exactly 0% of the blame for this scandal. If there had been an arrest because a 12 year old used the betting system to accumulate a large quantity of skins, liquidate them, and then not pay taxes - then Valve might have a share of blame for not reporting the revenue to the IRS.
However, this scandal isn't about whether or not betting skins is legal. This scandal is about a professional team gambling on their own game. That's illegal in EVERY sport. When boxers get caught, they get banned for life. When baseball players do it, they get banned *for life*. Those organizations are not at fault - everyone in any competition is well aware that gambling on your own results is illegal, and harshly punished because it jeopardizes the very sport that they're competing in.
Am I taking crazy pills? Why do you keep derailing this thread to be about the skin betting system!?
It's trivially easy to turn skins into real money if you wish to do so. I mean, I could buy keys in bulk 1.7 euros per key right now in real money. Turning skins to keys and them to real money is not hard.
On January 29 2015 02:03 iv~nk~j wrote: It's trivially easy to turn skins into real money if you wish to do so. I mean, I could buy keys in bulk 1.7 euros per key right now in real money. Turning skins to keys and them to real money is not hard.
Yes, this. And if argue that skins are worth nothing and don't matter, then what's wrong with what IBP did? They intentionally lost a meaningless match for what you say is no gain. Also, like you mention, I highly doubt anyone betting on CSGL is reporting their winnings to the IRS so everyone is guilty of tax fraud.
And the reason I've brought up the skin betting system is because Valve is supporting and profiting from a questionable online betting service but then all of a sudden they come out with these bans like they are the communities true moral compass. I just don't like hypocritical systems.
You don't need to report your CSGL winnings to the IRS because you didn't win money and you won't find a court in the world that'll say you need to declare your earnings before they're even sold for money. Hell unless you made several thousands and it's actually in your bank account they probably don't care.
No one is ever going to tax your digital gaming assets x_x. If you win $5000 of skins in 2015 and you sell them for $3000 in 2016, you pay taxes for $3000 in 2016.
CSGL is not responsible for your minor tax fraud if you decide to sell items outside of Valve's parameters without declaring your revenue. And if you don't declare multiple tens of thousands in earnings from selling internet items it's your fault.
On January 29 2015 00:07 DEN1ED wrote: Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane.
As for the "quite a bit of money you accumulate", it's steam money, it's not money you've earned, and it's money you wouldn't have had without skins or if you played another game. You can bet it away. Whatever. It's bad if you buy crap and you bet it, but that's a parent's responsibility.
And this is exactly the opposite of what kids/young adults should be learning. Gambling addiction is a very real problem and it starts with this kind of fucked up logic.
If you think so, don't let your kid bet items on CSGL.. Take some responsibility. Don't like gambling, don't gamble. Don't like driving? Don't drive. Things have risks, you make choices.
Betting skins has consequences and we should mitigate them, not prevent people from betting when many of them are just having a good time and they're doing their thing.
On January 29 2015 03:22 Djzapz wrote: You don't need to report your CSGL winnings to the IRS because you didn't win money and you won't find a court in the world that'll say you need to declare your earnings before they're even sold for money.
Sure, I agree, but then people have to stop calling what IBP did illegal. Either skins are real money and treated as such or they are treated as nothing but some pixels. So IBP intentionally lost a game for no value. Professional sports teams arguably lose on purpose all the time for actual value(draft picks).
On January 29 2015 00:07 DEN1ED wrote: Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane.
As for the "quite a bit of money you accumulate", it's steam money, it's not money you've earned, and it's money you wouldn't have had without skins or if you played another game. You can bet it away. Whatever. It's bad if you buy crap and you bet it, but that's a parent's responsibility.
And this is exactly the opposite of what kids/young adults should be learning. Gambling addiction is a very real problem and it starts with this kind of fucked up logic.
If you think so, don't let your kid bet items on CSGL.. Take some responsibility. Don't like gambling, don't gamble. Don't like driving? Don't drive. Things have risks, you make choices.
I'm not a parent nor do I have any kids. Do you really think that parents have 100% control over their kids though? I highly doubt they even realize that they are able to gamble like this. Also, you don't seem to understand addiction. There is a huge difference between liking something and being addicted to it. Gambling is highly addictive and even more so in youth. I've seen a lot of gambling addicts and it's really scary. It destroys lives.
With your logic why don't we just make heroic legal and have it available to kids at lunchtime. No problem there. The parents will just tell their kids it's bad so they won't do it.
Value and money are different. IBP lost a game on purpose, they acquired the loose right to possess digital items that they don't technically own just like World of Warcraft gold, and the "right" to these items *can* be sold for real money (or put towards buying Steam games). I don't know if match fixing is legal or not in the US or in any other country, I for one am satisfied with the sanctions imposed by valve, but a case could probably made to say that this anticompetitive behavior doubles as theft.
In the end, people who bet items that they sort of "own" are betting expecting both teams to play the game normally. If you bet an item worth $50 on IBP and they intentionally lose the match, part of that $50 technically goes to them.
Ignoring the legality, it's a shitty thing to do, especially since the people who bet on IBP are not just speculators but they're also IBP fans - the people who are rooting for IBP, the people who trust IBP for whatever reason.
We are in agreement there, it was a completely shitty thing for IBP to do. It's just that Valve has created a monster with skins and betting and now it just seems like they are doing a 180.
I just think morally Valve should try to shutdown CSGL. It makes it way too easy for underage kids to gamble. If you wan't to gamble there are still sites like egamingbets which at least require some more verification. They won't do it though because they profit so much from it. Just seems hypocritical.
On January 29 2015 03:47 DEN1ED wrote: I'm not a parent nor do I have any kids. Do you really think that parents have 100% control over their kids though? I highly doubt they even realize that they are able to gamble like this. Also, you don't seem to understand addiction. There is a huge difference between liking something and being addicted to it. Gambling is highly addictive and even more so in youth. I've seen a lot of gambling addicts and it's really scary. It destroys lives.
And what is your argument? Parents don't have 100% control over their kids and so kids should be completely sheltered?
Look, it's simple - 12 year old kids who play CS don't have a lot of skins. If they do, it's their parents buying them. If they gamble with their skins, it's the parent's responsibility. If a kid has an allowance of $2 a week and he goes and spends that $2 every week at the $2 plushie machine with the weird claw thing that you can't really control, then it's a problem. However, the solution is education, not the removal of the plushie machines. The plushie machine is a legitimate thing.
As for addiction, I understand it, and if a parent is the kind to put a lot of money for skins in their kid's game, then ffs, they should look at it. Again, the solution is not to bring down the structure.
On January 29 2015 04:08 DEN1ED wrote: We are in agreement there, it was a completely shitty thing for IBP to do. It's just that Valve has created a monster with skins and betting and now it just seems like they are doing a 180.
Ford created a monster when he created cars which would kill tens of thousands of people in accidents every year and would massively pollute, we make a choice and our children go to school and all that.
Valve didn't create a monster with skins, Valve did what people do, they made a thing and people choose to use them stupidly (or not). There is no monster. I have some skins, my friend bets skins and he has fun with it. Not a big deal. Don't punish everyone because some people can't handle their shit.
It's not just 12 year old kids with a few dollars. You can get a job starting at around 15 and I've heard kids in casuals talking about how when they get their first paycheck they are going to buy a "max bet" skin. Sure, it's that kids money and it's his choice but it's harmful to society as a whole.
And what does Ford do? They try to make cars safer and safer. Valve doesn't care.
I mean there's a case to be made for regulation, sure. But it's not the main problem as far as this thread goes. I'd be in favor of a 18+ clause for using CSGL. But this has nothing to do with what IBP did. Trying to prevent betting altogether is the equivalent of telling people it's illegal to drink. You can be addicted to drinking, if you tell people they can't drink though you don't fix anything.
On January 29 2015 03:22 Djzapz wrote: You don't need to report your CSGL winnings to the IRS because you didn't win money and you won't find a court in the world that'll say you need to declare your earnings before they're even sold for money.
Sure, I agree, but then people have to stop calling what IBP did illegal. Either skins are real money and treated as such or they are treated as nothing but some pixels. So IBP intentionally lost a game for no value. Professional sports teams arguably lose on purpose all the time for actual value(draft picks).
On January 29 2015 00:07 DEN1ED wrote: Just by playing CSGO you can accumulate quite a bit of money if you just sell your cases(yay more gambling, SLOTS!), it's not just pennies.
Sure, parenting is a big factor as well. You seem to be living in this world of extreme black/white though. There are many causes and effects of every problem and thinking Valve has no role in it seems insane.
As for the "quite a bit of money you accumulate", it's steam money, it's not money you've earned, and it's money you wouldn't have had without skins or if you played another game. You can bet it away. Whatever. It's bad if you buy crap and you bet it, but that's a parent's responsibility.
And this is exactly the opposite of what kids/young adults should be learning. Gambling addiction is a very real problem and it starts with this kind of fucked up logic.
If you think so, don't let your kid bet items on CSGL.. Take some responsibility. Don't like gambling, don't gamble. Don't like driving? Don't drive. Things have risks, you make choices.
I'm not a parent nor do I have any kids. Do you really think that parents have 100% control over their kids though? I highly doubt they even realize that they are able to gamble like this. Also, you don't seem to understand addiction. There is a huge difference between liking something and being addicted to it. Gambling is highly addictive and even more so in youth. I've seen a lot of gambling addicts and it's really scary. It destroys lives.
With your logic why don't we just make heroic legal and have it available to kids at lunchtime. No problem there. The parents will just tell their kids it's bad so they won't do it.
Your logic is so hard to follow, I don't even know where to start.
#1. IBP fixed a match for personal gains. Huge ban in any sport, end of story. Stop arguing it.
#2. Addiction is completely irrelevant to this conversation. So is parenting. Stop it. If you want to start a thread about "Should there be a system for gambling skins?" then fine. But get it out of this thread.
#3. Your heroin argument is the biggest "slippery slope" logical fallacy I've seen in a long, long time.
Keep your posts to the discussion topic. As it is, I can barely follow what you're trying to argue, since every sentence is about some random half-baked idea.
On January 29 2015 04:19 Djzapz wrote: I mean there's a case to be made for regulation, sure. But it's not the main problem as far as this thread goes. I'd be in favor of a 18+ clause for using CSGL. But this has nothing to do with what IBP did. Trying to prevent betting altogether is the equivalent of telling people it's illegal to drink. You can be addicted to drinking, if you tell people they can't drink though you don't fix anything.
Exactly, not once did I say people shouldn't be allowed to bet at all. Just the current system needs a lot of fixing.
On January 27 2015 11:19 lestye wrote: I can't believe they did something so reckless when they're scene and future were looking so bright.
Kids get greedy and think they're invincible. Put it up to the fact the eSports community is still quite young and there's not many mature figures in the community.
This. It's a classic problem in college sports. You're 18, 19 years old. All of a sudden, thousands of people are cheering for you, you're popular, you're making money (in esports that is. Only scholarships for college). Your professor lets an assignment slide because you've got a game that week. You start to feel like you're above the rules.
So then you do stupid shit. Break the law, do drugs, gamble on a game, take money from boosters. You'll be fine, you're the big man on campus. Who's gonna do anything about it? And then, inevitably, it all comes crashing down. It's a damn shame, and careers have been ruined over it.
It's gonna happen a few more times in eSports. Guarantee it. All we can do is hope that older players will help guide the young blood along the way. Teams really have to be more proactive about it also. C9 ban betting on ANY matches for their players. Would love to see more teams take that attitude.
There will always be a few bad apples here and there, but at least with this the scene just took a step towards maturing properly. As many have said, it'll take time, but with Valve's involvement as well as leagues following suit, things are looking great.
I'm more concerned with the anti-hack features in online matches now, if anything, and tournaments/teams requiring players to have proper DDoS prevention measures set up.
I'm not too familiar with the current leagues' anti-hack systems, but how good are they really? Do we need Valve to step in on that front too?
The only one I feel bad for is swag. He was 17 at the time and it's probably really difficult for you to assert yourself against the peer pressure to the older teammates. Ironically, he is currently the only one and the first to make a public statement or apology in the matter.
He was the best player in NA and he had so much more potential due to his age. I want to see his sentence reduced at some point :/
On January 29 2015 04:45 Souma wrote: There will always be a few bad apples here and there, but at least with this the scene just took a step towards maturing properly. As many have said, it'll take time, but with Valve's involvement as well as leagues following suit, things are looking great.
I'm more concerned with the anti-hack features in online matches now, if anything, and tournaments/teams requiring players to have proper DDoS prevention measures set up.
I'm not too familiar with the current leagues' anti-hack systems, but how good are they really? Do we need Valve to step in on that front too?
I'm pretty sure ESEA/CEVO anti-cheat systems are better than Valves, and even then I don't think it catches everything.
This is great! Goodbye to trash and well handled by valve. I have only just installed CS:GO at the urging of a starcraft friend, and still have zero competitive games played. Still, even bad press is press. I'm preparing to join the competitive player pool in NA, let's count that as growth in the CS scene and keep the party going.
I have spent some time thinking about how I wanted to word a statement that would best portray my feelings & emotions towards my actions but also in a way that doesn't seem fake, cheap, or disingenuous.
First and foremost, I would like to apologize to the community for the set back and embarrassment I've caused to the game, and to my fans.
Additionally, I would like to apologise directly to Richard Lewis. He was an old friend and provided me a place to sleep and play games rent free when I was homeless. He stuck his neck out for me and I couldn't give him the decency to own up to my actions. We have confided in each other many secrets to which we still possess to this day, but I was afraid of what he would do with the information as a journalist.
Out of all of the players on the team, Skadoodle was the only one with enough integrity to not accept any skins. Unfortunately I did not have the same integrity as I was at a weakened emotional state at the time having just lost at a major CS:GO event and having decided that I was going to quit the team. I do not know whether I did not profit off of the scandal or if I've only convinced myself of this, but looking back at my trade history, I can see a net of -1 skin directly from the ordeal. It was never a plan for me to get rich quick.
The part of the situation which hurts the most is the amount of time, money, and energy I have put into building the NA community since CS:S through various ways including funding teams to go to events out of pocket, creating a website with free content including match commentaries, tips & tricks, demo reviews, shoutcasts, and more. I never made a profit from any of this content and I did not make a profit from paying for teams to go to LAN events. Everyone was quick to forget all the good I had done. The longer I stayed in this community, the more I ended up getting burned by it to the point that I stopped putting in so much time, effort, and energy. I stopped looking at the game with defined moral values and I in turn exploited it where I could. But even if I was getting burned by the community, it still doesn't make what I did right, or acceptable.
Somewhere along the lines I lost perspective of everything and stopped seeing everything black & white. At the start of this new year I had big plans for making CS:GO bigger in NA and was eager to put the work in to see it happen. I wasn't proud of my past decisions but it had happened and I had to move on. Now I am at the point where everything that I worked hard for has been taken away. I was hurt more than everyone else by the punishment but that is something I have to deal with for the rest of my life.
I am still a host of knowledge about Counter-Strike. I will try to make all of this information available to everyone for free. It's the least I can do. People will try to boycott my content, and I understand this. I will continue to stream and endure. I wasn't in CS for money. I played and competed because I loved the game. Everyone who knew me before 2013 knows this. What I am today is not what I used to be. I hope I can again change into the person I once was. I hope in time everyone can be the supporters of me that they once were.
I've lied to myself about what happened and in effect I've lied to my friends, family, and supporters. I'm still grasping the severity of the situation and working to rectify it. In time I hope that in time I can be remembered for what I've given to the community and not what I've taken from it.
Statement from Hiko regarding his and Skadoodle's plans.
As far as Skadoodle and myself are concerned regarding our plans for this season of CEVO / ESEA, we do not plan on picking up 3 new players to continue out the season and will most likely take a little time off to see what happens with upcoming talent in the American scene. Going over our options, we have decided there aren't three players we would feel comfortable enough with in the short AND long term to make this season worthwhile.
By no means are either of us retiring. We both still have the itch to play and win, it's just not realistic at this moment in time. Hopefully by next season we will have promising opportunities and will be able to field a roster we both believe in. I have informed the leagues to mark our rosters as dead as we move forward and consider options in the future.
The beginning of 2015 was marked by one of the biggest scandals in Counter-Strike history, implying various players from the north american scene, including some former iBUYPOWER players. The protagonists got banned from all of Valve's major tournaments for an indefinite period. After Epsilon and Robin "GMX" Stahmer parted ways, the latter tweeted a threatening message about whether he should "drop a bomb" or not.
We went to see him to learn more about this. The former Epsilon captain revealed us that he had information about a rigged match implying his team. He also admitted that he was implied in this case with all of his former team mates. He added that acquaintances of the Epsilon players also benefited from this fraud.
"First of all, I want to thank the Epsilon organization, its director and the staff members who truly are great people. They always supported me and my team mates since June. The Epsilon staff was not aware of what I’m about to say.
I want to apologize to them, and to all the community for what I’m about to say. There are things you regret, and this is the case. In last September, we deliberately lost our ESEA match against OverGaming in order to win skins for ourselves and for friends of us. All of my team mates and some of their friends were aware of this. We however did not planned this together, and every player acted on its own to get their skins back. I won some skins via a friend on this match, and I know some of my team mates also won skins."
So now it's either a shitstorm because Epsilon gets permabanned by Valve for match fixing, or a shitstorm because they don't get punished and iBP(and their defenders) think they're being treated unfairly. Good shit.
"It became apparent yesterday that a statement from our ex player, GMX, had surfaced accusing his ex team-mates of throwing a game some months ago," a statement from Epsilon reads.
"We at Epsilon had absolutely no prior information about this situation and were as shocked to read this as everyone else.
"Since this information came to be known, we have been working behind the scenes to gain as much data ourselves and also liaising with other bodies within the CS:GO scene such as Valve.
"Firstly, we at Epsilon would like to make it clear that we absolutely do not condone cheating and exploiting systems in any way.
"We have now decided to suspend the whole CS:GO team pending the results of ongoing investigations by both Valve and ESEA.
"We will of course provide any more information, both when we have it, and when it is relevant to do so."
I know some peoples are already affected by this , and even news has been written on a lot of website.
I did this under anger, and in this act, i forgot to say that my former team mate ScreaM, didn't know about this throw. I've talked a bit with Adil, and in my anger, i forgot he didn't know about it. I dont know yet if they told him about it or not, but i didn't.
Maybe you won't believe me but this is the truth and its entierly my bad.
About bazy, Adil told him we were bad on nuke, thats why he bet on OverGaming
I want to apologize toward the community, and toward ScreaM who doesn't deserve all this hate.
aaaahhh Scream seems like he's gonna be left out of this, thank fucking god... How do you forget to mention this though, ffs GMX.. Also where does Scream go now? There's no other high level team in France unless he goes to some lower tier team like Platinium? Gonna stream until an opportunity comes up kinda like schneider?
EDIT: if you keep calling GMX a liar and shattering my delusional fanboy view of scream i will murder all of you ;;
I did this under anger, and in this act, i forgot to say that my former team mate ScreaM, didn't know about this throw. I've talked a bit with Adil, and in my anger, i forgot he didn't know about it. I dont know yet if they told him about it or not, but i didn't.
Read: I implicated the best player on my team in a match-fixing scandal and now regret potentially ruining his career in what was ostensibly a fit of spiteful rage.
hello everyone , today i ,receveid an mail from valve in wich is explained that we are ban 1 year from every VALVE tournament. Hard punishment ofc , but i can understand, i have acte like a kid and now i have to pay. now , will see if every league , tournament will follow the valve decision. i hope no , 1 year ban from every major its extremely hard enough. Stay Tuned !
@Souma: Not really. Dazed, steel, cud and dboorn should be gone from competitive scene in any capacity forever. And if exceptions applied to AZK and swag, it would create even more controversy.
I assume they got a 1 year ban because it either wasn't as extensive or the evidence wasn't as conclusive. Still, glad this shit's being brought to light now.
I'd say the fact that ex-iBP tried to hide the fact so actively and for so long should be held against them. So I think that if we take the team as a whole, they deserve something like 2 years instead of 1 (In epsilon's case they admitted pretty quickly).
If we were to do it player by player, i'd say swag and azk would deserve maybe the least, something like 1 year, steel probably 2 year for agreeing with the fix and convincing others, dboorn and dazed 3 years for actively taking part in the match fixing process with cud.
For the people saying ex-IBP tried to hide it so actively for so long, if it wasn't for valve just now looking into it epsilon players would be doing the exact same thing.
The only reason this was a lot faster is valve decided to actually look into it a lot faster then the one with IBP. The epsilon players didn't admit it until valve said "caught you".
On February 05 2015 01:34 blade55555 wrote: For the people saying ex-IBP tried to hide it so actively for so long, if it wasn't for valve just now looking into it epsilon players would be doing the exact same thing.
The only reason this was a lot faster is valve decided to actually look into it a lot faster then the one with IBP. The epsilon players didn't admit it until valve said "caught you".
Yeah that's true... Epsilon would probably have done the same in the absence of an investigation - lucky for them the circumstances allowed them to look less like assholes.
I think what makes IBP, or more specifically Dazed look bad as fuck is this (video from Aug 2014):
Now call me a fool, I watched the video shortly after it came out and I was like alright maybe it was that troll Shahzam who was fucking around. Dazed is playing the victim and trying to PR his way out by playing on Shahzam's credibility.
Fuck, I think Dazed should get the biggest punishment of all. Also, I think Shahzam should get a one year ban. I don't know on what grounds though, maybe for being an asshole... Being an insider and not whistleblowing could be bannable. I mean if you're a "credible" person personality like Shahzam and you profit from insider info on fixed matches, fuck you.
So far it looks like Shahzam is getting away with it. Him and the skins he's won in this.
At least Shazham corroborated the evidence once it finally came to light. I think that is worth something. Remember, these guys were using their influence in NA CS to keep people quiet. More people knew than we know and they kept quiet because of some misguided sense of loyalty, or out of fear of having their reputation come under attack and getting blackballed.
Looks like Epsilon released Kevin "Uzzziii" Vernel and Joey "fxy0" Schlosser.
"As of today, fxy0 and Uzzziii have been released from Epsilon eSports," a statement from Epsilon reads.
"The latest elements and statements we have received clearly condemn the player in the match-fixing accusation.
"We would like to thank Valve for keeping us informed during the entire process.
"The sole player left, Adil “ScreaM” Benrlitom, will continue to represent Epsilon, and we will discuss what we plan next alongside his Manager, Olivier “Olriko” Hamon."
On February 05 2015 01:34 blade55555 wrote: For the people saying ex-IBP tried to hide it so actively for so long, if it wasn't for valve just now looking into it epsilon players would be doing the exact same thing.
The only reason this was a lot faster is valve decided to actually look into it a lot faster then the one with IBP. The epsilon players didn't admit it until valve said "caught you".
Doesn't matter. You don't dish out punishments based on hypotheticals.
On February 05 2015 01:34 blade55555 wrote: For the people saying ex-IBP tried to hide it so actively for so long, if it wasn't for valve just now looking into it epsilon players would be doing the exact same thing.
The only reason this was a lot faster is valve decided to actually look into it a lot faster then the one with IBP. The epsilon players didn't admit it until valve said "caught you".
Doesn't matter. You don't dish out punishments based on hypotheticals.
It doesn't matter you make the punishment the same. You don't change it from one team to another just because of x. Valve should have the same punishment to everyone. They all did the same damn thing and they all denied it until the proof came out.
Just because it took 4 months for Valve to actually look into it doesn't mean IBP players should be punished harsher then the other teams who may have done it even more. Same punishment otherwise it's stupid. I don't know what I think the punishment should be, but even just a "year" is like a whole career in esports so I am pretty sure we'll never see any of these players play in the pro scene on a team ever again and have good results.
The real world is not as simple. To ensure that investigations don't drag on and risk falling on their face, the law often encourages confessions and plea bargains. Punishments never have to be the same because two situations are rarely ever exactly the same.
This discussion (Mattwood is a valve dev) raises a lot of good points, mainly whether or not pro players are allowed to bet or not at all, and what a pro player is to valve. Nbk refers to valve's blog :
Professional players, their managers, and teams’ organization staff, should under no circumstances gamble on CS:GO matches, associate with high volume CS:GO gamblers, or deliver information to others that might influence their CS:GO bets.
In my opinion, the rules are way too vague at the moment and it has to be confusing for a lot of players, especially those semi-pro teams.
On February 05 2015 23:05 PassiveAce wrote: thats not vague at all. 'should under no circumstances gamble on CS:GO matches' thats as unequivocal as it can get.
I disagree.
the definition of a CS:GO pro is not exactly set-in-stone. Does this rule apply to people who occasionally sub in a team lineup? People on the staff of a team (writers, graphic artists, etc.)? People who directly sponsor a team? People who retired from a team recently?
And Valve has done nothing to outline clear and definite repercussions for individuals that do break what is currently just a "stern suggestion".
Richard Lewis has covered this in a video before, and stated what he sees as necessary esport betting rules -- check it out here (about 20 minutes in):
Valve's message seemed pretty unequivocal. Don't see why there's so much confusion.
Professional players, their managers, and teams’ organization staff, should under no circumstances gamble on CS:GO matches, associate with high volume CS:GO gamblers, or deliver information to others that might influence their CS:GO bets.
They need to define punishments though or at least a range of punishments. I also don't think it's necessary to forbid players/staff from betting on all matches, just their own matches, but whatever.
"Professional players" doesnt mean much, especially since so few teams have actual salaries.
If an esea-open team happens to participate once in a tournament where one of its match is featured on csgolounge, does that mean that they should be treated as "professionals" and banned from betting forever?
Sure, this rule is very clear (even it could still be vastly improved) for the few top teams; they and their staff should not bet period. But what about all the other team and semi-pros / amateurs?
Mattwood defined "professional" with definition 2a, 2b and 2c of http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional. But even this is not enough at all, because 1) contracts are not really made public 2) what about the "non-professionals" that are still featured on csgolounge, are they still able to bet?
Seems to be clear to me, especially with the dictionary definitions. Pros = people receiving some kind of financial or other form of reimbursement from sponsoring organizations for their time playing the game. Certainly you are not actually telling me you don't know what a professional is... You should know what a professional is at this age.
If they didn't bring up non-professionals, why in the world are you asking about it? If a law says, "Minors below the age of 21 are not allowed to drink," are you really going to ask, "What if they are 22?"
Seems to me like you're just making it confusing for yourself.
Considering how long-winded and specific the Steam EULA is, a series of tweets linking to dictionary definitions is really not much from Valve.
The fact that there is any confusion over what Valve means when it says "professional" indicates a need for them to be more specific. There are instances of salaried teams playing against non-salaried teams all the time (which appear on CSGL) so what happens if a substitute player from the non-salaried team bets on his team (even if he's not playing)?
There will inevitably be many situations where a dictionary definition cannot be easily applied, which is why we need clear-cut rules about this. It doesn't need to be overly complex, but modelling it from how traditional sports deal with it seems to be a good place to start (as indicated in the RL video I posted above).
Glad some people are finally getting over the initial irrational outrage to place some of the blame for this situation on valve. You simply cannot compare this to real sports. Real professional athletes are getting paid salaries and have contracts. We are in this 'semi-pro' phase now where there are legit pros playing against people who aren't getting paid anything to perform. Any time you have that, there is going to be an incentive to try and make a little money on the side through shady means. Banning people won't fix everything. Players need an incentive NOT to throw matches in the form of a stable and guaranteed income.
Then the rule as it is now does not apply to them. Not sure why it's so confusing.
Once again, if a law states, 'You must be 21 or over to drink alcohol,' are you going to ask, 'What if you're 20? What if you're 20 but you're with a group of 21-year-olds? What if you're 20 but... you aren't even drinking alcohol?' You don't have to explicitly mention a group to get a direct implication across.
I think what you guys are asking for is not clarification on whether or not a professional can do this or that, but whether non-professionals can do this or that, and as far as Valve is concerned, they cannot and will not regulate non-pros as they explicitly left them out. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
And for the record, "semi-pro" is still a pro in this regard.
On February 06 2015 07:25 Souma wrote: Is the substitute a professional? No?
Then the rule as it is now does not apply to them. Not sure why it's so confusing.
Once again, if a law states, 'You must be 21 or over to drink alcohol,' are you going to ask, 'What if you're 20? What if you're 20 but you're with a group of 21-year-olds? What if you're 20 but... you aren't even drinking alcohol?' You don't have to explicitly mention a group to get a direct implication across.
I think what you guys are asking for is not clarification on whether or not a professional can do this or that, but whether non-professionals can do this or that, and as far as Valve is concerned, they cannot and will not regulate non-pros as they explicitly left them out. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
And for the record, "semi-pro" is still a pro in this regard.
No, what seems pretty straight-forward to me is that bigtime skin gamblers can make more money off a single match than a 'pro' who isn't getting anything to participate yet its the 'pro' who is putting in the time to get better and improve to the detriment of the rest of their life. Watch the film 'Eight Men Out,' by John Sayles. Until players are being paid fairly or at least at a minimum level, this kind of stuff is going to continue. Placing the blame squarely on the players when the entire system is fucked up doesn't fix anything. Valve needs to recognize this.
... pros don't get anything to participate? What...?
The vast majority of professionals recognize that throwing away your career for skins is one of the stupidest decisions you can make, and that's because there is a lot more benefit to being a pro than gambling.
On February 06 2015 07:51 Souma wrote: ... pros don't get anything to participate? What...?
The vast majority of professionals recognize that throwing away your career for skins is one of the stupidest decisions you can make, and that's because there is a lot more benefit to being a pro than gambling.
Jeezes dude, exaggerate much?
Me exaggerating? More like you. Something has to be a 'career' before you can throw it away. Despite the recent growth of esports, most players still are not getting paid fair salaries yet people can bet on their matches and make money? Thats fucked up. ex-IBP was never paid a salary. Any which way you cut it they were not pros with careers, they were hobbyists with sponsors.
On February 06 2015 06:07 Souma wrote: Seems to be clear to me, especially with the dictionary definitions. Pros = people receiving some kind of financial or other form of reimbursement from sponsoring organizations for their time playing the game. Certainly you are not actually telling me you don't know what a professional is... You should know what a professional is at this age.
If they didn't bring up non-professionals, why in the world are you asking about it? If a law says, "Minors below the age of 21 are not allowed to drink," are you really going to ask, "What if they are 22?"
Seems to me like you're just making it confusing for yourself.
Uh no, it's not clear what a professional is at all, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. Frankly speaking, an "esports" pro and a professional as understood by the vast majority of the population are two different things, as well as that obviously they are not neccessarily two distinct terms either as we who are involved in cs go subscribe different meanings to the definition of a professional.
However, that said, it is a basic standard of behaviour that peolpe involved in the playing and managing the game should be refraining themselves from gambling on the results of their games in the first place, and it is an astonishing oversight by Valve not to make a statement declaring that, as opposed to responding to the inevitable matchfixing scandal which occured.
Souma, are you then saying that players from Denial, whose every match is on CSLounge are still allowed to bet? They don't have salaries or contracts. Just seems extremely weird that some players who are on CSLounge are allowed to bet, and some aren't.
I feel like in this case, professional should not mean what it means in a literal sense, but rather players on pro/invite level leagues. Very strange that you randomly attack someone with words like "you should know what professional means at your age" when in a budding scene, professional means something completely different.
On February 06 2015 07:51 Souma wrote: ... pros don't get anything to participate? What...?
The vast majority of professionals recognize that throwing away your career for skins is one of the stupidest decisions you can make, and that's because there is a lot more benefit to being a pro than gambling.
Jeezes dude, exaggerate much?
Me exaggerating? More like you. Something has to be a 'career' before you can throw it away. Despite the recent growth of esports, most players still are not getting paid fair salaries yet people can bet on their matches and make money? Thats fucked up. ex-IBP was never paid a salary. Any which way you cut it they were not pros with careers, they were hobbyists with sponsors.
And where does it say that it has to be specifically a career in which you receive a salary to be considered a pro? Have you never heard of... professional poker players?
This is what I mean. It's not confusing at all; it's you guys not knowing what is considered a professional and are trying to press the notion that in its current state, a professional is some ambiguous entity. It's really not.
I have no idea how I'm the one exaggerating when you say something like:
Something has to be a 'career' before you can throw it away.
Really? Here, let me go throw away this dirty napkin on my desk, brb.
Denial is a semi-pro team, hence they are professionals in this situation, as I mentioned above. They are reimbursed in a way that non-professionals aren't, even if they don't have an actual salary, and a major part of their lives is dedicated to playing the game to win tournaments and prize money. If you take the definitions of "professional" that were linked, it's quite obvious what is considered a pro and what is not.
NOW THE ACTUAL PROBLEM is whether or not that definition is fair and whether or not Valve's rules are fair. That is an ENTIRELY different discussion. But this whole 'I don't know what a professional is' or 'Valve's statement isn't clear' thing hurts my head.
On February 05 2015 23:05 PassiveAce wrote: thats not vague at all. 'should under no circumstances gamble on CS:GO matches' thats as unequivocal as it can get.
And Valve has done nothing to outline clear and definite repercussions for individuals that do break what is currently just a "stern suggestion".
Pretty much this. This just seems like valve saying "please don't bet we really don't want to have to deal with this."
It mentions that CS has to be your career. Many of these players have a fulltime job and play CS on the side. Are they still professionals. Also I really doubt getting a mouse for being on a team is enough to be considered a professional like Denial does.
2b. in the definitions linked. Unless you just need 1 of the 3 in which case according to Valve I'm also a professional player because I've played in a tournament for gain.
... there are three different definitions under 2. You gotta consider them all individually, not as a whole.
And regarding your statement about Denial (although I think they may get travel reimbursements too like iBP did), although it may seem unfair, in this situation they are indeed considered professionals. "Professional" is not a narrow definition, and encompasses a few things.
And that's why it's a stupid rule. Participating for gain is so arbitrary. If you just need 1 of the 3 then I'm sure like 10% of the playerbase is considered a professional.
The problem is that valve is allowing these 3rd party websites to facilitate gambling between users of valve's products, many who happens to be minors. This is valve's fault. That players have and will continue to take advantage of a system that valve has failed to regulate is an obvious outcome. You think that IBP and Epsilon are the only two teams that have thrown matches? They are just the only two that got caught. I honestly feel like skin gambling needs to go or that players need to be compensated for playing in matches that are being gambled on by default.
Regulation, sure why not. Paying players just for having a game up on csgl just because you think they don't get anything from playing the game when tbey obviously do? No.
On February 06 2015 09:10 Souma wrote: Regulation, sure why not. Paying players just for having a game up on csgl just because you think they don't get anything from playing the game when tbey obviously do? No.
You make no sense at all. Some people keep trying to compare this to real sports leagues. In real sports leagues, players get paid for every game they play! You can't run a 'pro' division in esea and cevo etc and have people making money off of matches when all players are not. IBP wouldn't have thrown the match if they were getting anything at all from it. It was literally a meaningless game to them so they did not care. Everybody wants to keep blaming players and have them face consequences but nobody wants to force the league admins and the developers to step in legitimize the players in a way that could prevent stuff like this from happening. I honestly don't even know what you are trying to argue.You think these guys train hours upon hours everyday for fun? They do it for the money in the end. Everybody does what they do for money. Do you have a job? If you were an hourly employee and you went to work one day and the boss said, "Hey, I know you are going to be working 8 hours today, but I thought we'd just ask you to work for free this one time?" What would you do? You keep trying to call this a 'career' yet players are not being fairly compensated for bringing the viewers and providing the entertainment that benefits the leagues and the developers. Why do people like you want to shit on the players so bad in this mess? They are humans just like anybody. Matchfixing has been prevelent in the csgo scene precisely because it is nowhere near legitimate yet. Why was matchfixing such a big deal in broodwar? Because Kespa legitimized the sport and the offending players literally had careers and bargained agreements in place! This is not the same thing.
The fact that we are having this conversation at all basically tells you that what they said is open to interpretation. A rule open to interpretation is not good in this case, period.
Something like the FA (football/soccer) ruling should be done, where everything is clearly defined. Two sentences are not enough.
I also don't know why you have to be so passive-aggressive Souma.
On February 06 2015 09:10 Souma wrote: Regulation, sure why not. Paying players just for having a game up on csgl just because you think they don't get anything from playing the game when tbey obviously do? No.
You make no sense at all. Some people keep trying to compare this to real sports leagues. In real sports leagues, players get paid for every game they play! You can't run a 'pro' division in esea and cevo etc and have people making money off of matches when all players are not. IBP wouldn't have thrown the match if they were getting anything at all from it. It was literally a meaningless game to them so they did not care. Everybody wants to keep blaming players and have them face consequences but nobody wants to force the league admins and the developers to step in legitimize the players in a way that could prevent stuff like this from happening. I honestly don't even know what you are trying to argue.You think these guys train hours upon hours everyday for fun? They do it for the money in the end. Everybody does what they do for money. Do you have a job? If you were an hourly employee and you went to work one day and the boss said, "Hey, I know you are going to be working 8 hours today, but I thought we'd just ask you to work for free this one time?" What would you do? You keep trying to call this a 'career' yet players are not being fairly compensated for bringing the viewers and providing the entertainment that benefits the leagues and the developers. Why do people like you want to shit on the players so bad in this mess? They are humans just like anybody. Matchfixing has been prevelent in the csgo scene precisely because it is nowhere near legitimate yet. Why was matchfixing such a big deal in broodwar? Because Kespa legitimized the sport and the offending players literally had careers and bargained agreements in place! This is not the same thing.
1) When did I ever compare this to real sports leagues...?
2) You thinking iBP threw the match just because they "got nothing" is naive. It was a CEVO match. They were playing for a share of a monetary prize, even if them losing didn't affect standings. They also represent sponsors for each and every single match they play--sponsors who have dedicated time, resources and money towards the team. They are not playing for free and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop the hyperbole and misrepresentation of facts.
3) I never once mentioned that this was a career, you guys brought it up. I've used the word "professional" the entire time and explicitly said that it does not have to be a salaried career for it to be considered "professional."
4) You not placing any blame on the players is a lot more confusing than why you are going off on a tangent when the only thing I've been doing throughout this entire thing was trying to get you to understand the definition of the word "professional" and the degree of clarity of Valve's statement pertaining to betting.
5) Match fixing was a much bigger deal in Brood War because the scope and magnitude of it was on an entirely different scale and it was the first of its kind in the esports world.
On February 06 2015 11:10 Roggay wrote: The fact that we are having this conversation at all basically tells you that what they said is open to interpretation. A rule open to interpretation is not good in this case, period.
Something like the FA (football/soccer) ruling should be done, where everything is clearly defined. Two sentences are not enough.
I also don't know why you have to be so passive-aggressive Souma.
Some people think that climate change is open up to interpretation. It does not mean they're right, nor does it mean there's a real argument to be made. Also, if you consider all of this "passive-aggressive," that explains a lot.
Valve have their way of doing things, as much as everyone would like them to "step up their game" on that matter, I highly doubt it will end up in something really good or as good as people would want it to be. Same thing for ESEA.
On February 06 2015 11:10 Roggay wrote: The fact that we are having this conversation at all basically tells you that what they said is open to interpretation. A rule open to interpretation is not good in this case, period.
Something like the FA (football/soccer) ruling should be done, where everything is clearly defined. Two sentences are not enough.
I also don't know why you have to be so passive-aggressive Souma.
Some people think that climate change is open up to interpretation. It does not mean they're right, nor does it mean there's a real argument to be made. Also, if you consider all of this "passive-aggressive," that explains a lot.
The fact is, you have been very douchy this whole conversation, dismissing arguments because they are not "real" and resorting to personnal attacks ("You should know what a professional is at this age." etc).
I posted this topic of discussion here because I thought we could have a civilized discussion here, which is usually impossible elsewhere, but I guess I was wrong.
On February 06 2015 11:10 Roggay wrote: The fact that we are having this conversation at all basically tells you that what they said is open to interpretation. A rule open to interpretation is not good in this case, period.
Something like the FA (football/soccer) ruling should be done, where everything is clearly defined. Two sentences are not enough.
I also don't know why you have to be so passive-aggressive Souma.
Some people think that climate change is open up to interpretation. It does not mean they're right, nor does it mean there's a real argument to be made. Also, if you consider all of this "passive-aggressive," that explains a lot.
The fact is, you have been very douchy this whole conversation, dismissing arguments because they are not "real" and resorting to personnal attacks ("You should know what a professional is at this age." etc).
I posted this topic of discussion here because I thought we could have a civilized discussion here, which is usually impossible elsewhere, but I guess I was wrong.
Souma's better than ESEA or other forums though . He writes words, they drop one liners and kappas. Edit: This is this post's second line because I'm not a hypocrite.
Souma, you was the one said dictionary definitions are clear, and then are now skirting around them saying all sorts of rubbish contradicting yourself. What a professional is or is not is not clear. What matters is that anybody involved in the match where gambling takes place shouldn't be placing any bets at all. The most valve has done is putting up a statement with no means or inclination to regulate and a whole lot of fuzzy ground, possibly because valve sees the gambling of skins to be beneficial to their business.
Well, looks like Valve clarified their statement :
To clarify – as a professional player, team manager or event production staff, it is common to have personal relationships and/or privileged information about other teams and players. Because of this, we will always assume that you have access to private CS:GO-related “inside information” that might give you an unfair advantage when placing a bet on any CS:GO game or match.
Betting using inside information, or even the perception or suspicion thereof, carries a significant risk of damaging your personal brand, your team, your community, and may lead to exclusion from future Valve-sponsored events.
To avoid these risks, we recommend that you never bet on any CS:GO game or match. This recommendation applies both to current professional players and anyone who wishes to participate in a Valve-sponsored CS:GO event in the future.
The restrictions are indefinite, and will not be re-evaluated before 2016.
ScreaM dodged a bullet.
I also want to add that I would like to see why ESC where banned. Valve has to have some kind of proofs. Banning without showing anything is a bit stupid (altho fully within their right).
This whole argument about what/who is a professional is completely irrelevant because once again, they just say it is a "recommendation". Come out with some real defined RULES or actually do something about sites like csgl. Just recommending things doesn't mean shit.
Valve can't stop people from placing bets, but are warning people not to bet because it's far too easy to destroy your career doing so. Hence the "recommendation".
On February 07 2015 04:06 Souma wrote: Once again, you guys are missing the entire point.
The definition of "professional" is as clear as day if you're just going by the definitions that Valve posted.
Now, whether or not it is FAIR to label certain players as professional or not is an entirely different discussion.
Get it? Jeezes people, just read.
I have not once contradicted myself in this discussion, but if you want to accuse me of such you should show proof.
No, once again you are missing the point.
In the context, defining if it is FAIR to treat certain players as professional is part of the definition (as they were only mentionning that term) and definitely the discussion we were having. We are not talking about the term "professional" in a general context at all.
Also, Valve did adress that part by adding "and anyone who wishes to participate in a Valve-sponsored CS:GO event in the future." to complete their statement.
What? We are not "defining" it as "fair" or unfair, we are "stating our opinion" on whether or not it's fair. Two completely different things.
We are talking about the term "professional" as defined by section 2 of the Merriam Webster dictionary that was so graciously linked to everyone who seemingly did not know what a "professional" was. The definition is three-pronged. The term "professional" is and has always been broad, so you trying to mold it just to fit your own little world was a mistake in the first place.
It seems to me that the people here, rather than truly not knowing what a "professional" is, just do not like its broad definition and would rather see it narrowed to fit their mold of what they think is fair to characterize as a professional.
In any case, so many of those semi-pros have labeled themselves as "Professional CS:GO player" in Twitter and on Facebook. Even they are aware of what they are.
On February 07 2015 04:34 Souma wrote: What? We are not "defining" it as "fair" or unfair, we are "stating our opinion" on whether or not it's fair. Two completely different things.
We are talking about the term "professional" as defined by section 2 of the Merriam Webster dictionary that was so graciously linked to everyone who seemingly did not know what a "professional" was. The definition is three-pronged. The term "professional" is and has always been broad, so you trying to mold it just to fit your own little world was a mistake in the first place.
Why would it be a mistake? As you said the definition is too broad, and this is exactly what I meant : This definition alone is not enough.
Also, I franqly don't care about the term in itself, what I care is that the rules are clear and precise (see the FA rules for soccer). As of now, Valve recommends to everyone who wishes to participate in a Valve-sponsored csgo tournament to never bet, which is an upgrade from their earlier statement, but still leaves out all the non-Valve-sponsored tournaments and it is still only a recommendation.
Okay, see, that's fine. You are unhappy over Valve's broad usage of the term "professional." What is not up for debate is the actual definition (as provided) of the term "professional." All you want to do is restrict its usage.
Anyone who is crying, "What is a 'professional?'" is not actually saying they have no idea what a professional is but rather, they are just upset over its scope, and that's what I've been trying to point out.
On February 07 2015 03:09 DEN1ED wrote: This whole argument about what/who is a professional is completely irrelevant because once again, they just say it is a "recommendation". Come out with some real defined RULES or actually do something about sites like csgl. Just recommending things doesn't mean shit.
I don't think that will ever happen.
From my knowledge & understanding, Valve likes to judge and evaluate on a very subjective basis.
If they come out with real defined rules, you're going to have people who ride the fine line, and try to exploit those rules.
If everything is a subjective, then they have the power to be judge, jury & executioner on any basis without being limited to something they might not have the foresight to see. This new guy is getting caught doing shady shit, but the rules doesn't cover that, so I guess we have to let it slide, amend the rules and hope to catch the next bastard.
If there are rules, people are going to ride the line. However, Valve doesn't want you ANYWHERE near that line, if that makes sense.
You could say that's complete bullshit, unfair, and you'd have a good point, but I think that's how Valve sees things.
If you have the capacity to play in a major or a big LAN, then you're at the point where valve says you are an ambassador of esports, so just don't bet.
On February 07 2015 05:53 Roggay wrote: Still, what do you guys think about the bans? Especially those to the ex-ESC players (who are now contesting ever doing anything).
Valve isn't stupid enough to ban without definitive proof. But then again, we can't see the evidence because that's a whole another beast to fight (if we see how valve tracks, then we can circumvent it). It's pretty bad for the esc guys if they are innocent but then again, if Valve is right, then that's sad.
On another thought, Valve having to do all of these investigations is leading away from the problems the game has (hitbox problems, tagging, adad, movement, etc).
Valve is such a joke anymore. They completely ignored the competitive CS scene since the beginning and only began to get involved when they released the first weapons cases update. That is, VALVE IGNORED PRO CS FOR OVER A DECADE. They let a dog-eat-dog scene grow where players were getting screwed over by orgs and tournament organizers left and right and had to fend for themselves to follow their passions. They did NOTHING when ESEA used their products as a platform to install bitcoin mining malware on all their customer's computers. Now they want to pop into the scene, throwing a measly $750,000.00 a year into tournament prizes after making a KILLING off of skins, and act like every decision they make is completely unquestionable. Skin gambling should be illegal for everybody period. The fact that its the players who make the game what it is that are feeling the negative consequences of a scene left unchecked by the developer for so long is such a disappointment. To hell with anybody who supports Valve's recent behavior. There is no nuance in their actions, there is no accountability for their role in this entire mess. 2015 is proving to be the worst year ever for cs. The NA scene is dead. C9 and the others will not compete for anything this year and you are a fool if you believe otherwise. I don't even know why I follow it at this point.
For one, the only reason CS:GO was able to get this big was because Valve, after failing miserably post-release, began to listen to the pro community. Are they perfect? No, and there are a ton of things that still need to be done, but they did not throw this game away and should at least be respected for that.
Throwing a "measly $750K a year" into sponsoring tournaments is what's helping this game grow even bigger, especially competitively. That + the stickers are what's making all these big organizations come into the fold.
Gambling fully illegal? Like what? Totalitarian much? We all know that'd be impossible to regulate, let's be real here.
NA scene is dead? WHAT? The NA scene just took a step back, and it'll take time to recover, but it's not dead.
Valve still has a lot of stuff to do (buffing their anti-cheat efforts, fixing multiple aspects of the game, better servers, transitioning Season/Tuscan into the map pool, etc. etc.), but you are going way too far with the criticism my friend. Tone done the exaggerations.
On February 07 2015 06:14 Souma wrote: There you go with your hyperbole again.
For one, the only reason CS:GO was able to get this big was because Valve, after failing miserably post-release, began to listen to the pro community. Are they perfect? No, and there are a ton of things that still need to be done, but they did not throw this game away and should at least be respected for that.
Throwing a "measly $750K a year" into sponsoring tournaments is what's helping this game grow even bigger, especially competitively. That + the stickers are what's making all these big organizations come into the fold.
Gambling fully illegal? Like what? Totalitarian much? We all know that'd be impossible to regulate, let's be real here.
NA scene is dead? WHAT? The NA scene just took a step back, and it'll take time to recover, but it's not dead.
Valve still has a lot of stuff to do (buffing their anti-cheat efforts, fixing multiple aspects of the game, better servers, transitioning Season/Tuscan into the map pool, etc. etc.), but you are going way too far with the criticism my friend. Tone done the exaggerations.
How long have you even followed cs? Valve has treated the entire cs scene with disdain for over a decade. To say valve is the only reason the cs scene has gotten this big is the biggest turd of a line I have ever read in my life. Do you know how many people have worked tirelessly for NOTHING to keep this scene alive? Valve nearly destroyed cs when they forced a shit game (source) into tournaments when 1.6 was finally hitting it bigtime. That already destroyed the NA scene once because all the best players had no choice but to switch to source for CGS which ended up going bankrupt in only a year. Many of those players (who were the best, who could actually compete internationally) never returned because they never made any money to make it all worthwhile. What we got after that were all the leftover ok-level players who are at the top of the scene today and they are honestly nobodies which is why NA is not competitive at all.
YES, a measly 750k a year. You see how much money a f2p game like dota gets? A game that has nothing to do with valve's success as a company? MILLIONS. You know how much valve is making off of CSGO skins? A shit ton more than 750k I can tell you that for sure. If it weren't for cs 1.6, nobody would even be using steam. Steam's entire launch as a software was based on it being required to play the newest update of cs which was in version 1.5 and at the time the biggest multiplayer game in the world. If it weren't for cs, there would be no steam as we know it today.
Gambling is illegal for minors in many countries and online gambling is completely illegal in others no matter your age. CSGL will be shut down eventually or at least heavily regulated, mark my words. I am glad you think the integrity of online gambling is what matters the most in this situation.
The NA scene is DEAD. No matter how many orgs get involved, the players will never be competitive with a european scene that was able to thrive through the source debacle and produce a generation of players with legit lan and top-level pro experience. You are seriously willfully ignorant if you believe that ANY of the existing NA teams will win any tournament this year outside of ESEA lan and I doubt they will win that either. Look at all the top teams right now and their players. These players have 100x the experience of anyone competing from NA and are proven champions.
You want to talk about maps? Talk about how the most popular competitive maps in cs history are all basically community made maps that were designed to replace the shit maps valve has tried to force onto the scene for years. Now that valve puts up a tiny bit of prize money the tournament organizers are like "o shit I guess we have too play cbble now!" Cbble already ruined a couple tournament conclusions int he past couple months. How many more? Tuscan is a ripoff of cpl_mill, which was a community map that was created to fill a void left by valve when cs was at its first peak.
Valve has no legs to stand on at all in any of this mess. Valve is losing a ton of respect and damaging the scene. There is no hyperbole in anything that I say. Its just the way things are and have been.
On February 07 2015 07:18 Capped wrote: If valve arent responsible for the surge in CSGO's popularity and growth then who is, please tell.
CS has always been huge. Tons of players who quit for years such as me are coming back because there is excitement at the pro level that has nothing to do with valve other than the added prize money they put into a few tournaments a year. Esports itself is gaining popularity. Ill give valve credit for listening to the scene for once and updating a game that was absolute shit at release but valve doesn't deserve even 20% of the credit for where the game is at now. The credit is due to the people who worked behind the scenes to keep this game alive for over a decade while valve treated it like a red-headed step child. You guys honestly have no grasp on this history of cs if you want to think valve is the one that just magically made this all happen. Valve didn't even create cs. It was created by a couple guys in their dorm rooms basically and it became bigger than any game valve ever came up with so they bought it out. CS has always been a community driven game and valve has demonstrated time and time again that anytime they try to get involved and force things upon the scene they get it wrong.
I don't think you've actually followed CS:GO closely and are incapable of properly analyzing its growth. It has not "always been huge." Any past success of 1.6 currently has nothing to do with CS:GO's success. The numbers have told us everything we need to know the past year and a half or so. As much as you'd like to think that the community is always responsible for everything (except apparently match fixing) that is not the case.
There is no way to completely regulate gambling. As it is, gambling online is already illegal in the U.S. That hasn't really stopped people from betting real money online. You can tear down CSGL all you want, another one will just pop up, and another and another... and another. Granted, Valve probably has no jurisdiction in Poland, where CSGL is located, so try as they may they can only do so much.
And stop saying the NA scene is DEAD, holy crap the hyperbole is ridiculous. If a handful of players getting banned killed the scene then that means the region was dead to begin with. It's funny how you say the scene is dead yet all these big organizations are still pouring money into it, and EG is still looking for a team. I believe the description you are looking for is, "currently unable to compete," not "dead."
"You want to talk about maps?" I said they had to improve the map pool (didn't disagree at all) and here you go. Are you even reading anything?
On February 07 2015 07:18 Capped wrote: If valve arent responsible for the surge in CSGO's popularity and growth then who is, please tell.
CSGL, honestly.
CSGL wouldn't be here if Valve didn't introduce skins, and the bigger the tournament the more bets are made, so Valve sponsoring these majors is, believe it or not, having a huge effect on the community.
On February 07 2015 08:00 Souma wrote: There is no way to completely regulate gambling. As it is, gambling online is already illegal in the U.S. That hasn't really stopped people from betting real money online. You can tear down CSGL all you want, another one will just pop up, and another and another... and another. Granted, Valve probably has no jurisdiction in Poland, where CSGL is located, so try as they may they can only do so much.
It is only illegal for banks to move money for online gambling. It isn't illegal for an individual to gamble online. I won't pretend it isn't a gray area, but it isn't completely black.
I'd also suggest that it is easy for CSGL to skirt this because skins don't need to be laundered like traditional betting transactions. Money laundering is what got online poker a few years ago.
On February 07 2015 08:00 Souma wrote: I don't think you've actually followed CS:GO closely and are incapable of properly analyzing its growth. It has not "always been huge." Any past success of 1.6 currently has nothing to do with CS:GO's success. The numbers have told us everything we need to know the past year and a half or so. As much as you'd like to think that the community is always responsible for everything (except apparently match fixing) that is not the case.
There is no way to completely regulate gambling. As it is, gambling online is already illegal in the U.S. That hasn't really stopped people from betting real money online. You can tear down CSGL all you want, another one will just pop up, and another and another... and another. Granted, Valve probably has no jurisdiction in Poland, where CSGL is located, so try as they may they can only do so much.
And stop saying the NA scene is DEAD, holy crap the hyperbole is ridiculous. If a handful of players getting banned killed the scene then that means the region was dead to begin with. It's funny how you say the scene is dead yet all these big organizations are still pouring money into it, and EG is still looking for a team. I believe the description you are looking for is, "currently unable to compete," not "dead."
"You want to talk about maps?" I said they had to improve the map pool (didn't disagree at all) and here you go. Are you even reading anything?
On February 07 2015 07:18 Capped wrote: If valve arent responsible for the surge in CSGO's popularity and growth then who is, please tell.
CSGL, honestly.
CSGL wouldn't be here if Valve didn't introduce skins, and the bigger the tournament the more bets are made, so Valve sponsoring these majors is, believe it or not, having a huge effect on the community.
Seriously, man. Just stop. That is like saying that broodwar has nothing to do with sc2's success despite sc2 clearly being the inferior game. If you think the popularity of cs right now is due to skins and gambling and not its gameplay you are confused. People love to play CS, People love to watch cs, and now people love to gamble on it.
The NA scene is dead. Ex-IBP was the only team with even a slimmer of hope to compete against the world's best and it was blown up before it could get off the ground. Swag is a cs prodigy - there is nobody like him in NA right now, and now hes done for the foreseeable future. There is no in-game leader like Dazed right now either. Daps and adren are source heroes, who have never competed among the world's best at any time in their entire careers because they simply are not good enough and I don't see that changing. Maybe 2016 we will have some players emerge and prove their stripes like nitr0, who then go on to form a complete team, not just a team with a couple rising stars and a bunch of filler. I honestly admire the fact that you hold onto so much hope but there really is none at all right now and you are going to be feeling a lot worse about things after each and every disappointment you have as the tournaments come and go this year. I don't believe the matchfixing players should go unpunished, I think their punishment needs to be reasonable and defined and I think valve needs to make good on all the cs scene has given them to work with without simply screwing over a bunch of players who were participating in something valve has chosen to completely ignore up until this point.
Skin betting is terrible for this game. It isn't real money, and if it is, then it is illegal for many of the people currently participating in it. This will get noticed eventually, and valve will simply wash their hands of any culpability and ban skin betting like they had nothing to do with it right? *eyeroll*
On February 07 2015 08:00 Souma wrote: There is no way to completely regulate gambling. As it is, gambling online is already illegal in the U.S. That hasn't really stopped people from betting real money online. You can tear down CSGL all you want, another one will just pop up, and another and another... and another. Granted, Valve probably has no jurisdiction in Poland, where CSGL is located, so try as they may they can only do so much.
It is only illegal for banks to move money for online gambling. It isn't illegal for an individual to gamble online. I won't pretend it isn't a gray area, but it isn't completely black.
It is a grey area, and that's why I said it hasn't really stopped people from betting. It's incredibly difficult to regulate. It actually varies from state to state as well. Some states outright ban online gambling. New Jersey it seems has fully legalized it.
The point is, it's too difficult to regulate. Especially when it comes to a company like Valve doing the regulation, and not governments.
On February 07 2015 07:18 Capped wrote: If valve arent responsible for the surge in CSGO's popularity and growth then who is, please tell.
CSGL, honestly.
Which wouldn't even exist if Valve didn't add the gun skins update.
OMG wow big fn deal valve added skins to a game that historically has always had community made skins available for free! Bend down kiss their feet and worship them! Thank you LORD GABEN for skins and the popularity of cs! What would we do without you!
On February 07 2015 08:00 Souma wrote: I don't think you've actually followed CS:GO closely and are incapable of properly analyzing its growth. It has not "always been huge." Any past success of 1.6 currently has nothing to do with CS:GO's success. The numbers have told us everything we need to know the past year and a half or so. As much as you'd like to think that the community is always responsible for everything (except apparently match fixing) that is not the case.
There is no way to completely regulate gambling. As it is, gambling online is already illegal in the U.S. That hasn't really stopped people from betting real money online. You can tear down CSGL all you want, another one will just pop up, and another and another... and another. Granted, Valve probably has no jurisdiction in Poland, where CSGL is located, so try as they may they can only do so much.
And stop saying the NA scene is DEAD, holy crap the hyperbole is ridiculous. If a handful of players getting banned killed the scene then that means the region was dead to begin with. It's funny how you say the scene is dead yet all these big organizations are still pouring money into it, and EG is still looking for a team. I believe the description you are looking for is, "currently unable to compete," not "dead."
"You want to talk about maps?" I said they had to improve the map pool (didn't disagree at all) and here you go. Are you even reading anything?
On February 07 2015 07:55 Daralii wrote:
On February 07 2015 07:18 Capped wrote: If valve arent responsible for the surge in CSGO's popularity and growth then who is, please tell.
CSGL, honestly.
CSGL wouldn't be here if Valve didn't introduce skins, and the bigger the tournament the more bets are made, so Valve sponsoring these majors is, believe it or not, having a huge effect on the community.
Seriously, man. Just stop. That is like saying that broodwar has nothing to do with sc2's success despite sc2 clearly being the inferior game. If you think the popularity of cs right now is due to skins and gambling and not its gameplay you are confused. People love to play CS, People love to watch cs, and now people love to gamble on it.
The NA scene is dead. Ex-IBP was the only team with even a slimmer of hope to compete against the world's best and it was blown up before it could get off the ground. Swag is a cs prodigy - there is nobody like him in NA right now, and now hes done for the foreseeable future. There is no in-game leader like Dazed right now either. Daps and adren are source heroes, who have never competed among the world's best at any time in their entire careers because they simply are not good enough and I don't see that changing. Maybe 2016 we will have some players emerge and prove their stripes like nitr0, who then go on to form a complete team, not just a team with a couple rising stars and a bunch of filler. I honestly admire the fact that you hold onto so much hope but there really is none at all right now and you are going to be feeling a lot worse about things after each and every disappointment you have as the tournaments come and go this year. I don't believe the matchfixing players should go unpunished, I think their punishment needs to be reasonable and defined and I think valve needs to make good on all the cs scene has given them to work with without simply screwing over a bunch of players who were participating in something valve has chosen to completely ignore up until this point.
Skin betting is terrible for this game. It isn't real money, and if it is, then it is illegal for many of the people currently participating in it. This will get noticed eventually, and valve will simply wash their hands of any culpability and ban skin betting like they had nothing to do with it right? *eyeroll*
Really? You think SC2 is successful? The reason SC2 has been dying is because it's a completely different game from Brood War; it's not BW and the only thing BW did was get it extra initial hype. Since then the game has been falling on its own toes. Likewise, 1.6 and Source gave CS:GO some initial hype, which immediately died down as the game started spiraling downwards. Then Valve began to make changes based on feedback, and now CS:GO is what it is now because of that.
And when did I say the popularity of CS is due to just skins and gambling? Holy crap stop conflating other people's arguments with mine. I'm the one saying Valve deserves some credit for a variety of reasons for CS:GO's current success.
Like I said, you are using the wrong word. You are, with all your flub, saying that the NA scene cannot compete this year. That is not the same thing as being dead. Dead would imply an inability to be resuscitated. The NA scene will thrive again at some point, which means it's not "dead," just handicapped.
It's not exactly the addition of skins that really jump-started the game. It's the economy that came with the skins. The fact that they could be bought/sold/traded with and therefore bet with, was the big thing that helped it. The custom skins in 1.6 were never legal for competitive play either since those skins tend to completely change the look of the gun, compared to just having a custom paint job on the gun. You had to use default models. Besides, you had to download them, and place them in a folder in your cstrike folder to get the skins to work.
CSGL's site is also very convenient for viewers since it shows when the matches are scheduled to be played easily, and they embed the stream on the match page too. The games CSGL decides not to open bets for, gets next to no viewers, as seen when they ignored ESEA for about a week or so. When viewers have skins/items invested into a match, they'll want to watch it.
On February 07 2015 07:18 Capped wrote: If valve arent responsible for the surge in CSGO's popularity and growth then who is, please tell.
CSGL, honestly.
Which wouldn't even exist if Valve didn't add the gun skins update.
OMG wow big fn deal valve added skins to a game that historically has always had community made skins available for free! Bend down kiss their feet and worship them! Thank you LORD GABEN for skins and the popularity of cs! What would we do without you!
Learn to read before getting on your high horse. I was just pointing out that CSGL wouldn't exist if Valve didn't add skins (try to prove me otherwise or at least, answer Capped question). Jeez is this becoming reddit or something? If you hate valve so much as well as how they're dealing with the game, then just leave. You won't be missed. That negativity is getting tiresome really.
On February 07 2015 09:23 Capped wrote: I dont know why people bother arguing with this guy lol
Well to be fair, I do understand some of the points he's making. Some of them are completely valid but he's also exaggerating a lot and he's sometimes flat out wrong.
On February 07 2015 03:09 DEN1ED wrote: This whole argument about what/who is a professional is completely irrelevant because once again, they just say it is a "recommendation". Come out with some real defined RULES or actually do something about sites like csgl. Just recommending things doesn't mean shit.
If everything is a subjective, then they have the power to be judge, jury & executioner on any basis without being limited to something they might not have the foresight to see. This new guy is getting caught doing shady shit, but the rules doesn't cover that, so I guess we have to let it slide, amend the rules and hope to catch the next bastard.
If there are rules, people are going to ride the line. However, Valve doesn't want you ANYWHERE near that line, if that makes sense.
You could say that's complete bullshit, unfair, and you'd have a good point, but I think that's how Valve sees things.
It is bullshit, and it's also terrible for the game/esport scene. If they don't want anyone even near the line, a recommendation won't do anything. Just come out and tell players that if you want to participate in valve sponsored events you aren't allowed to bet on cs, period.
On February 07 2015 10:12 Souma wrote: Well they're not making rules. That's why they're just recommending. :p
I know but if it's not a real rule then why spend so much time defining "professional"? It seems like they are trying to make it a rule without actually making a rule...
They just want the pro community to be on the same page. It's a stern warning. That way if someone does end up getting caught match fixing again they can say, "We warned you! Don't tell us we didn't warn you this time!"
EPT
Duc "cud" Pham (ex-semi-pro)
Kevin "AZK" Larivière (ex-iBP)
. He writes words, they drop one liners and kappas.
