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Thanks a lot. I didn't know about the wellfare item they added in 6.1 in the garrison quest. Easiest 25 of my life
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On March 16 2015 18:14 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 09:23 bo1b wrote:On March 16 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:
That's why i was simming the default (bis) 680 gear, and also tried simming Gosac/CR in BiS mythic gear. Still a dps loss, for both. CR plays kind of like DB with all the extra embers, so you'd think it would be useful for that spec, but it turns out it really isn't. The change in uptime isn't relative to Archimonde's Darkness either, it's the same exact thing with glyph of Arcane Power for mages (only in our case, we generally do want the glyph because it does the opposite of DS glyph). Uptime is either the same, or reduced by 10 seconds (15 for mages) depending on the kill time. In some cases the extra burst is worth it (Demonbolt, supposedly also CR but really, no), in others it isn't (some mage specs).
The problem with Shadowburn isn't mastery at all (CB and Shadowburn are affected equally by mastery anyway), it's that if you do Shadowburn without CR you just run oom.
My guess of what's going on is that if you run CR, you do have the mana to SB, leaving you more time to cast extra Incinerates. However ember builders with CR hit like a wet noodle, so you'd probably rather spend your time casting Chaos Bolt than SB+Inc. Of course as usual this assumes no movement, on movement fights a spec as immobile as CR should probably just be happy to be able to cast anything at all. Dark soul glyph would be the same as arcane power glyph if archimondes darkness wasn't a thing. Not really; as they do the complete opposite things (AP glyph doubles duration and CD, Dark Soul reduces it). The shorter CD is supposedly preferable, or at least DPS neutral, if you can line it up with something else for huge burst, like Prismatic Crystal. You'd expect that CR would behave in the same exact way (dps increase or neutral because so many Chaos Bolts can benefit from Dark Soul), which is why im surprised that it's simming as a really big (~800-1k depending on gear) dps loss.
It's not the glyph thats causing a difference in dps, its that archimondes darkness adds an addtional charge. If you think about it, in a 10 minute fight thats 6 charges of unglyphed darksoul with archimondes, or 2 minutes of darksoul uptime. With the glyph there is 11 uses, or 110 seconds of darksoul uptime. Simply put archimondes interacting with the glyph causes a discrepancy between glyphed or unglyphed, or they'd stay functionally just the same.
From a playstyle perspective the glyph sucks unless your running with demon bolt anyway tbh, 10 seconds is not a lot of dumping time.
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On March 17 2015 10:08 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:14 Teoita wrote:On March 16 2015 09:23 bo1b wrote:On March 16 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:
That's why i was simming the default (bis) 680 gear, and also tried simming Gosac/CR in BiS mythic gear. Still a dps loss, for both. CR plays kind of like DB with all the extra embers, so you'd think it would be useful for that spec, but it turns out it really isn't. The change in uptime isn't relative to Archimonde's Darkness either, it's the same exact thing with glyph of Arcane Power for mages (only in our case, we generally do want the glyph because it does the opposite of DS glyph). Uptime is either the same, or reduced by 10 seconds (15 for mages) depending on the kill time. In some cases the extra burst is worth it (Demonbolt, supposedly also CR but really, no), in others it isn't (some mage specs).
The problem with Shadowburn isn't mastery at all (CB and Shadowburn are affected equally by mastery anyway), it's that if you do Shadowburn without CR you just run oom.
My guess of what's going on is that if you run CR, you do have the mana to SB, leaving you more time to cast extra Incinerates. However ember builders with CR hit like a wet noodle, so you'd probably rather spend your time casting Chaos Bolt than SB+Inc. Of course as usual this assumes no movement, on movement fights a spec as immobile as CR should probably just be happy to be able to cast anything at all. Dark soul glyph would be the same as arcane power glyph if archimondes darkness wasn't a thing. Not really; as they do the complete opposite things (AP glyph doubles duration and CD, Dark Soul reduces it). The shorter CD is supposedly preferable, or at least DPS neutral, if you can line it up with something else for huge burst, like Prismatic Crystal. You'd expect that CR would behave in the same exact way (dps increase or neutral because so many Chaos Bolts can benefit from Dark Soul), which is why im surprised that it's simming as a really big (~800-1k depending on gear) dps loss. It's not the glyph thats causing a difference in dps, its that archimondes darkness adds an addtional charge. If you think about it, in a 10 minute fight thats 6 charges of unglyphed darksoul with archimondes, or 2 minutes of darksoul uptime. With the glyph there is 11 uses, or 110 seconds of darksoul uptime. Simply put archimondes interacting with the glyph causes a discrepancy between glyphed or unglyphed, or they'd stay functionally just the same. From a playstyle perspective the glyph sucks unless your running with demon bolt anyway tbh, 10 seconds is not a lot of dumping time.
I dunno, you can almost always get 4 Chaos Bolts in.
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Italy12247 Posts
On March 17 2015 10:08 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 18:14 Teoita wrote:On March 16 2015 09:23 bo1b wrote:On March 16 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:
That's why i was simming the default (bis) 680 gear, and also tried simming Gosac/CR in BiS mythic gear. Still a dps loss, for both. CR plays kind of like DB with all the extra embers, so you'd think it would be useful for that spec, but it turns out it really isn't. The change in uptime isn't relative to Archimonde's Darkness either, it's the same exact thing with glyph of Arcane Power for mages (only in our case, we generally do want the glyph because it does the opposite of DS glyph). Uptime is either the same, or reduced by 10 seconds (15 for mages) depending on the kill time. In some cases the extra burst is worth it (Demonbolt, supposedly also CR but really, no), in others it isn't (some mage specs).
The problem with Shadowburn isn't mastery at all (CB and Shadowburn are affected equally by mastery anyway), it's that if you do Shadowburn without CR you just run oom.
My guess of what's going on is that if you run CR, you do have the mana to SB, leaving you more time to cast extra Incinerates. However ember builders with CR hit like a wet noodle, so you'd probably rather spend your time casting Chaos Bolt than SB+Inc. Of course as usual this assumes no movement, on movement fights a spec as immobile as CR should probably just be happy to be able to cast anything at all. Dark soul glyph would be the same as arcane power glyph if archimondes darkness wasn't a thing. Not really; as they do the complete opposite things (AP glyph doubles duration and CD, Dark Soul reduces it). The shorter CD is supposedly preferable, or at least DPS neutral, if you can line it up with something else for huge burst, like Prismatic Crystal. You'd expect that CR would behave in the same exact way (dps increase or neutral because so many Chaos Bolts can benefit from Dark Soul), which is why im surprised that it's simming as a really big (~800-1k depending on gear) dps loss. It's not the glyph thats causing a difference in dps, its that archimondes darkness adds an addtional charge. If you think about it, in a 10 minute fight thats 6 charges of unglyphed darksoul with archimondes, or 2 minutes of darksoul uptime. With the glyph there is 11 uses, or 110 seconds of darksoul uptime. Simply put archimondes interacting with the glyph causes a discrepancy between glyphed or unglyphed, or they'd stay functionally just the same. From a playstyle perspective the glyph sucks unless your running with demon bolt anyway tbh, 10 seconds is not a lot of dumping time.
I seriously don't understand what you are saying. Take an 8 minute fight and arcane power with and without glyph. Without the glyph you get 5 uses of it, for 75 seconds of uptime. With the glyph, you get 3 uses, for 90 seconds of uptime. The glyph (which is the exact opposite of DS, it doubles the cooldown and duration of AP) has improved uptime. Mages do not have Archimonde's Darkness. AD simply gives you one extra use per fight, which is nice but isn't the reason for the different uptime. Also, a single extra use becomes less powerful for longer kill times, which is why i ran 10 minute simulations for this.
In practice, higher uptime through the AP glyph (or DS unglpyhed) isn't necessarily a dps increase IF you can pair every short burst (unglyphed AP, glyphed DS) with another period of burst, like Prysmatic Crystal for mages or Demonbolt spam for Warlocks. With PC in fact, glyph vs no glyph is up to personal preference, and both do the same amount of dps. This is also why frost mages cast frozen orb together with PC rather than on cooldown.
Now, a Warlock with Charred Remains should be able to benefit very strongly from the glyph, as in those 10 seconds you can easily dump 4 chaos bolts before going back to ember builders; with unglyphed DS on the other hand your builders will benefit from DS instead of Chaos Bolts later on. This is absolutely identical to a Demonbolt warlock using the glyph; you have shorter, potentially less, but more frequent moments of burst than without the glyph, which you can abuse by always casting your most powerful nuke exclusively during these windows. Both specs play extremely similarly in that sense, which is why i'm surprised that for CR Destro it is actually not a dps increase. Seriously, anything that isn't a Chaos Bolt just tickles the boss with that spec.
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On March 17 2015 18:02 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:08 bo1b wrote:On March 16 2015 18:14 Teoita wrote:On March 16 2015 09:23 bo1b wrote:On March 16 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:
That's why i was simming the default (bis) 680 gear, and also tried simming Gosac/CR in BiS mythic gear. Still a dps loss, for both. CR plays kind of like DB with all the extra embers, so you'd think it would be useful for that spec, but it turns out it really isn't. The change in uptime isn't relative to Archimonde's Darkness either, it's the same exact thing with glyph of Arcane Power for mages (only in our case, we generally do want the glyph because it does the opposite of DS glyph). Uptime is either the same, or reduced by 10 seconds (15 for mages) depending on the kill time. In some cases the extra burst is worth it (Demonbolt, supposedly also CR but really, no), in others it isn't (some mage specs).
The problem with Shadowburn isn't mastery at all (CB and Shadowburn are affected equally by mastery anyway), it's that if you do Shadowburn without CR you just run oom.
My guess of what's going on is that if you run CR, you do have the mana to SB, leaving you more time to cast extra Incinerates. However ember builders with CR hit like a wet noodle, so you'd probably rather spend your time casting Chaos Bolt than SB+Inc. Of course as usual this assumes no movement, on movement fights a spec as immobile as CR should probably just be happy to be able to cast anything at all. Dark soul glyph would be the same as arcane power glyph if archimondes darkness wasn't a thing. Not really; as they do the complete opposite things (AP glyph doubles duration and CD, Dark Soul reduces it). The shorter CD is supposedly preferable, or at least DPS neutral, if you can line it up with something else for huge burst, like Prismatic Crystal. You'd expect that CR would behave in the same exact way (dps increase or neutral because so many Chaos Bolts can benefit from Dark Soul), which is why im surprised that it's simming as a really big (~800-1k depending on gear) dps loss. It's not the glyph thats causing a difference in dps, its that archimondes darkness adds an addtional charge. If you think about it, in a 10 minute fight thats 6 charges of unglyphed darksoul with archimondes, or 2 minutes of darksoul uptime. With the glyph there is 11 uses, or 110 seconds of darksoul uptime. Simply put archimondes interacting with the glyph causes a discrepancy between glyphed or unglyphed, or they'd stay functionally just the same. From a playstyle perspective the glyph sucks unless your running with demon bolt anyway tbh, 10 seconds is not a lot of dumping time. I seriously don't understand what you are saying. Take an 8 minute fight and arcane power with and without glyph. Without the glyph you get 5 uses of it, for 75 seconds of uptime. With the glyph, you get 3 uses, for 90 seconds of uptime. The glyph (which is the exact opposite of DS, it doubles the cooldown and duration of AP) has improved uptime. Mages do not have Archimonde's Darkness. AD simply gives you one extra use per fight, which is nice but isn't the reason for the different uptime. Also, a single extra use becomes less powerful for longer kill times, which is why i ran 10 minute simulations for this. In practice, higher uptime through the AP glyph (or DS unglpyhed) isn't necessarily a dps increase IF you can pair every short burst (unglyphed AP, glyphed DS) with another period of burst, like Prysmatic Crystal for mages or Demonbolt spam for Warlocks. With PC in fact, glyph vs no glyph is up to personal preference, and both do the same amount of dps. This is also why frost mages cast frozen orb together with PC rather than on cooldown. Now, a Warlock with Charred Remains should be able to benefit very strongly from the glyph, as in those 10 seconds you can easily dump 4 chaos bolts before going back to ember builders; with unglyphed DS on the other hand your builders will benefit from DS instead of Chaos Bolts later on. This is absolutely identical to a Demonbolt warlock using the glyph; you have shorter, potentially less, but more frequent moments of burst than without the glyph, which you can abuse by always casting your most powerful nuke exclusively during these windows. Both specs play extremely similarly in that sense, which is why i'm surprised that for CR Destro it is actually not a dps increase. Seriously, anything that isn't a Chaos Bolt just tickles the boss with that spec.
When I mean functionally the same as arcane power glyph I mean that it doesn't change the cd:uptime ratio, it just changes the duration to the same degree as the cooldown.
Idk, I don't understand whats so difficult to understand about this tbh, simcraft has never been accurate for warlocks in the time I've been playing it, and all I'm saying is that dark soul has a higher uptime over the course of a fight without the glyph then with due to archimondes darkness. That's why I brought up the arcane power glyph, since the impact it has on simcraft is close to nill, if there was an archimondes darkness for mages the glyph would have noticeable dps increases on simcraft.
I haven't played enough charred remains to comment, but I'd imagine the ember generation of cr to be high enough that more then 4 chaos bolts can be thrown out during a 20 second burn window. It's also important to understand the way rppm trinkets work, and that if you cast a spell before the boss is pulled the trinket will proc, and then the icd will instantly reset as combat begins, meaning that a 10 sec trinket (which is afaik the duration of all rppm trinkets) becomes 20 seconds of duration, and the initial burst at the start becomes that much better without the darksoul glyph.
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Italy12247 Posts
I don't understand what you are saying becuase it doesn't make any sense.
Glyph vs no glyph really does change the cd:uptime ratio (depending on kill times), that's the point of glyphing vs not glyphing, as i showed you. Even though AD does give you 10 extra seconds vs 20 seconds over a whole fight of DS uptime, it really isn't that big of a deal if the bulk of your damage comes in 10 second bursts (like Demonbolt). This is why Demonbolt Demo wanted to glyph DS, even though it meant less uptime. As i explained, AP glyph has a minor impact ONLY if you can pair it with a huge burst phase (like PC). Arcane Orb builds do run AP glyph.
more then 4 chaos bolts can be thrown out during a 20 second burn window.
Of course, but you can always get 4 chaos bolts in a 10 second window, while you never can get 8 chaos bolts in a 20 second window. That's the whole point of this whole discussion.
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TBH, it's probably a bug with the sim, there's no logical reason why it should be a DPS loss.
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Italy12247 Posts
Not necessarily. Something as simple as 40 seconds of Dark Soul during bloodlust combined with more benefit from AD and/or pots could in fact be more beneficial than glyphing it, despite speccing CR (it's always neutral or a gain without CR, because of the lost uptime). The APL could also be incorrect, although from a quick look it looks reasonable to me at least for Chaos Bolt. It's definitely a really puzzling result though.
That's why you can only use sims to theorycraft wow these days. It's too complex of a system to just go with gut feelings and ideas without enough proof.
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United Kingdom20342 Posts
Couldn't solo the 5 man arena quests in zul-drak (well, not without waiting 5 mins between a few of the quests and being very skilled, i just grabbed a guy out of /1 to come 2-man them) - quite shocking at this point :D
Cata zones will be fun! And then MOP will be unfun! And then the 90-100 without heirlooms begins :D
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You can loom your way to 100, but it costs a lot of daily heroics and gold.
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On March 18 2015 01:37 Cyro wrote:
Couldn't solo the 5 man arena quests in zul-drak (well, not without waiting 5 mins between a few of the quests and being very skilled, i just grabbed a guy out of /1 to come 2-man them) - quite shocking at this point :D
Cata zones will be fun! And then MOP will be unfun! And then the 90-100 without heirlooms begins :D
Alt #10 is about to hit Burning Crusade. It's going to be a hell of a nostalgia trip along with WotLK.
Cataclysm zones were pretty forgettable though. Hyjal especially is a lot of "look at all these important lore characters we're throwing at you! Can't you feel how epic this is???? Why aren't you impressed?????????????" Deepholm is probably the best zone in Cata since it's the least railroaded.
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United Kingdom20342 Posts
On March 18 2015 02:00 daemir wrote:
You can loom your way to 100, but it costs a lot of daily heroics and gold.
Yea i don't have 20k gold laying around, and farming 20k would take far longer and be less fun than just leveling 90-100 the natural way.. with one of 'dem i630 250g guns from 91+ 
Cataclysm zones were pretty forgettable though. Hyjal especially is a lot of "look at all these important lore characters we're throwing at you! Can't you feel how epic this is???? Why aren't you impressed?????????????" Deepholm is probably the best zone in Cata since it's the least railroaded.
I actually have some pretty awesome memories from the cata release, Vash'jir (spelling?) was very memorable because it's one of the most unique zones, the entry event is pretty cool, it's just so damn huge etc. A lot of people didn't like it, i don't feel particularly great for it but it was memorable.
For Hyjal, i had a recording on my PC for a while of flying in @ launch day with a friend, with excited chatter and reactions to full size deathwing right in front of you etc. That was pretty cool.
I LOVED Deepholm :D
desert zone, i don't even want to remember the name. Twilight highlands was pretty cool, but i was so damn tired by that point that i didn't enjoy it that much :D
Am i missing 1 or 2 zones? Maybe..
In comparison to cata, a lot of zones in classic, TBC and WOTLK were very bad IMO. Blade's edge mountains, shadowmoon valley (without a flying mount), storm peaks, zul'drak (again no flying mount) just less interesting and more tedious for me. Classic, well, there's a whole list of zones that were just kinda bad, but it was still fun at the time because 1-60 was deliberately paced as being most of the game experience for even i'd say a majority of players. Nowadays it's all about skipping to the cap, it's different and 1-100 is much faster now than 1-60 ever was.
Actually, i played every WoW expansion through launch except MOP.. and i'm kinda glad of that :D
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Italy12247 Posts
I fucking loved Storm Peaks. The Thorim/Ulduar chain quest was amazing. Maybe it's just me, but i always thought that the storytelling in questing became really awesome in the last few zones of Wrath.
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On March 18 2015 05:05 Teoita wrote:
I fucking loved Storm Peaks. The Thorim/Ulduar chain quest was amazing. Maybe it's just me, but i always thought that the storytelling in questing became really awesome in the last few zones of Wrath.
TBH,I liked Icecrown more. Getting to convert undead bases to yours and create footholds for what was really the first time that was done in the game felt awesome.
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On March 18 2015 03:44 Cyro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Cataclysm zones were pretty forgettable though. Hyjal especially is a lot of "look at all these important lore characters we're throwing at you! Can't you feel how epic this is???? Why aren't you impressed?????????????" Deepholm is probably the best zone in Cata since it's the least railroaded. I actually have some pretty awesome memories from the cata release, Vash'jir (spelling?) was very memorable because it's one of the most unique zones, the entry event is pretty cool, it's just so damn huge etc. A lot of people didn't like it, i don't feel particularly great for it but it was memorable. For Hyjal, i had a recording on my PC for a while of flying in @ launch day with a friend, with excited chatter and reactions to full size deathwing right in front of you etc. That was pretty cool. I LOVED Deepholm :D desert zone, i don't even want to remember the name. Twilight highlands was pretty cool, but i was so damn tired by that point that i didn't enjoy it that much :D Am i missing 1 or 2 zones? Maybe.. In comparison to cata, a lot of zones in classic, TBC and WOTLK were very bad IMO. Blade's edge mountains, shadowmoon valley (without a flying mount), storm peaks, zul'drak (again no flying mount) just less interesting and more tedious for me. Classic, well, there's a whole list of zones that were just kinda bad, but it was still fun at the time because 1-60 was deliberately paced as being most of the game experience for even i'd say a majority of players. Nowadays it's all about skipping to the cap, it's different and 1-100 is much faster now than 1-60 ever was. Actually, i played every WoW expansion through launch except MOP.. and i'm kinda glad of that :D
I had the opposite reaction when Cataclysm flew you straight into Deathwing + Ragnaros. Deathwing's model looked really cool, but running into him and Ragnaros like that didn't feel epic but like a Saturday morning cartoon. Ragnaros literally appears two feet from you and swings Sulfuras as if to say "LOOK AT HOW EPIC THIS IS", and then you just fly away. You just encountered the two biggest bads of the expansion and your overacting green dragon is all it takes to get away. PLOT!
You then get railroaded across the zone, and while mechanically it's streamlined it's not actually interesting except for Joust: the Quest and all the twilight's hammer stuff at the very end.
WotLK question was as streamlined without being nearly as restrictive in terms of questing freedom or anywhere near as corny. A huge part of why Deepholm is the best zone in Cataclysm is because it's essentially WotLK-style questing and storytelling.
BC questing had a lot of baggage from Vanilla, but I still think the storytelling was better than Cataclysm. Also, I'll never not jump at the sound of a Fel Reaver, ever.
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Italy12247 Posts
Oh man the Fel Reaver was terrifying as fuck
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Decided to do Black Temple on my monk alt for some transmog stuff, instead end up with 3 pets and a fucking war glaive on first run ever with that character.
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Nothing like questing vanilla on Stranglehorn valley. Storytelling business? Nah, i am on the storymaking business. I have a lot of memories going from quest to quest (it took me, like two or three days to get out of it the first time i did it, i just couldn't stop pvp'ing).
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Italy12247 Posts
I had to set the hs of my main in Grom'gol when i had an alt questing in there >.>
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On March 18 2015 06:44 Teoita wrote:
Oh man the Fel Reaver was terrifying as fuck
I still get scared by the dinosaurs in Un'goro.
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EPT
