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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On March 13 2015 08:24 nimbim wrote:
Finally killed Blackhand HC :D
I just hope we have enough time left to do most Mythic BRF fights before the next patch comes. I've only seen a few Mythic videos and Operator Thogar seemed pretty fun, so I want to get at least that far. Any other Mythic fights I should look forward to (as a healer)?
Next patch is going to be 6.2 which will not be out before at least the "summer" so you have a long time with BRF, 3 months minimum in my opinion.
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On March 13 2015 10:08 pachi wrote:
It's very boring in general since in raids someone living or dying depends very little on healing and is mostly their own fault.
That's only the case when the healers are doing their job, though. Flashbacks to 50 wipes on Butcher because of people dieing in the cleaves while using all of their defensives as well as the health pot thing at appropriate times. Ko'ragh deaths during AOE explosions. People not getting through the floaty mana worm adds dieing on mar'gok, either through slow killing and general raid HP dropping, or mass-killing them all at once. If you didn't experience that, then you had probably more healers than you needed, or better gear than needed.
Those were all doing heroic highmaul with ~i640 raid average, but i imagine you can make many examples across tiers and difficulties. Most of the raids i've done, that stuff applies in more than a couple of ways, i think. Our healers were not the best players in the world but several of them have at least 3 kills in highmaul mythic and either all or BRF HC or all but Blackhand, i didn't catch up with them recently - it's not a l2p issue.
If it's boring, drop a healer for a DPS then repeat that step as many times as neccesary. I guarantee it will become quite interesting very quickly! :D
I can't comment on BRF, but i can't see why it would be any different.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On March 13 2015 17:42 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 10:08 pachi wrote:
It's very boring in general since in raids someone living or dying depends very little on healing and is mostly their own fault. If it's boring, drop a healer for a DPS then repeat that step as many times as neccesary. I guarantee it will become quite interesting very quickly! :D
I'd say that is a very big issue with the raid design right now in that you basically run 2/4/14 as the baseline but as people are going to become more and more confident with mythic raids it'll eventually become 2/3/15 etc etc and it forces healers out of the raid even more.
Personally I wanna see encounters that force stuff like 3-4 tanks / 5-6 healers rather than simply stacking dps
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On March 13 2015 23:11 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 17:42 Cyro wrote:On March 13 2015 10:08 pachi wrote:
It's very boring in general since in raids someone living or dying depends very little on healing and is mostly their own fault. If it's boring, drop a healer for a DPS then repeat that step as many times as neccesary. I guarantee it will become quite interesting very quickly! :D I'd say that is a very big issue with the raid design right now in that you basically run 2/4/14 as the baseline but as people are going to become more and more confident with mythic raids it'll eventually become 2/3/15 etc etc and it forces healers out of the raid even more. Personally I wanna see encounters that force stuff like 3-4 tanks / 5-6 healers rather than simply stacking dps
Wildstar encouraged four tanks in 20 man, but that got ironed down to 3 recently. It wasn't bad IMO. Also 5-8-27 was fun for first 40 man boss. I think the "we need exactly 2 tanks and the raid won't function with 1 more or less than that, no matter if we have 10 or 30 players" is pretty bad, though it's maybe not quite that extreme, i get the impression that generally tanks are the center of a WoW guild and expected to have very high attendance, hard to find a guild as a tank etc because everybody established already has their two tanks.
To speak further even, it wasn't really 5 tank 8 healer and 27 people specced damage. It was more like 5 tanks, 8 healers, 4-5 people in utility roles and the rest focused on DPS, so only ~22-23 DPS focused people in 40 man.
WS rant
+ Show Spoiler +There was a bit more emphasis on control and buffs/debuffs vs DPS too; for example warriors had some skill with like 40% uptime which gave themselves and 4 people around them a ~15-20% damage boost. The "hit rating" stat was awfully budgeted so that it wasn't worth to hit cap yourself even in a perfect scenario, but one class brought a debuff making you less likely to miss the targets it was applied to, which was literally like a 6-10% damage buff. There were a few things like that, as well some other stuff..
for example as warrior you could do some fights with one skill dedicated to that AOE buff, one skill for an AOE defensive buff to cycle on some boss abilities with other warriors, one skill for movement, one skill for debuffing armor on enemy that you had to hit every 7-8 seconds or so, 2-4 skills for interrupts (look up the interrupt armor mechanic if you're curious, it's good) and overall sacrifice a lot of damage for the greater good of the fight (because the amount of skills that you could set up on your bar before the fight was limited, but easily changable between combat), that's not something that's common at all in WoW. I think there's a lot to learn in encounter design from that game. The classes were not very complex to play, but there was a lot of buffs, debuffs, utility, movement, dodging, coordination etc. That's a game that made a lot of stuff really damn hard without putting any of that difficulty into a complex DPS priority list and rotation, or having to have 20-40 things keybound. It's both good and bad, there are a lot of strengths to both styles and i think a middle ground would be amazing
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On March 13 2015 23:11 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 17:42 Cyro wrote:On March 13 2015 10:08 pachi wrote:
It's very boring in general since in raids someone living or dying depends very little on healing and is mostly their own fault. If it's boring, drop a healer for a DPS then repeat that step as many times as neccesary. I guarantee it will become quite interesting very quickly! :D I'd say that is a very big issue with the raid design right now in that you basically run 2/4/14 as the baseline but as people are going to become more and more confident with mythic raids it'll eventually become 2/3/15 etc etc and it forces healers out of the raid even more. Personally I wanna see encounters that force stuff like 3-4 tanks / 5-6 healers rather than simply stacking dps
The problem with that is that it makes it pretty much impossible to have a balanced guild roster. No tank or healer is going to join a guild just to be that extra person for that one fight. You might think "can't people respec?", but even with gear being as good allround as it is right now it would still require people to farm a few better optimized items with spirit or armor on them. If that's not necessary and you could do it in offspec gear it would make the fight undertuned and probably too easy.
Think back to 4 Horsemen in the initial Naxx. It bottlenecked guilds for weeks because suddenly they had to gear another 3-4 tanks to even be able to attempt the fight, not to mention the grueling execution. Gear is much more multipurpose now but the same problem still exists.
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
^Worked in WS, but the bosses that used extra with tank-like setups in 20 man was not tuned hard for DPS. It was more like "hey you one guy spec prot, take a bunch of defensive stuff and interrupts and try not to let this boss fuck up the raid for 5-10 minutes til we can come deal with him" role :D
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On the other hand, a big descrepency is the 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps going to 2 healers and and 8 dps per tank.
That said, it really seems to be hard to design encounters for over two tanks without doing tankswap or cleave mechanics that are simply balanced to 3 tanks instead...
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United Kingdom20318 Posts
On March 14 2015 00:05 Duvon wrote:
On the other hand, a big descrepency is the 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps going to 2 healers and and 8 dps per tank.
That said, it really seems to be hard to design encounters for over two tanks without doing tankswap or cleave mechanics that are simply balanced to 3 tanks instead...
Tri-Ogron.
Hanz, franz and steve? IDK how that fight works.
Two examples from WS:
1; room with four bosses in 20 man raid, you can't just have 1-2 of them walking around whacking the healer now, can you? Several, or even most if not all of them have to be tanked far apart for mechanics reasons. There's actually 5 bosses, but one of them is deactivated on a weekly cycle, which changes the available tactics quite a lot. That was nice, too, though a bit of a roadblock considering it could actually be a very hard fight with some setups, and not so hard with others.
2; encounter takes place with three rooms. The first room has two bosses which each need a tank because if they come within like 50 meters of each other, they will just instantly kill everyone. There are two rooms, each with adds; where a tank is sent - a mechanic every minute or so forces boss tanks and add tanks to switch. Another tank because of some overlap time with that mechanic, and boom you have 5 tanks being not only effectively used but kinda required for a 40 man raid
WS did change stuff up a lot though, there was a single tank fight as well
I don't really know what other MMO's are doing these days with raiding, i don't think there's much outside of WoW and Wildstar for that heroic-mythic level raid content
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Italy12246 Posts
With flex in the game that's never going to happen tbh.
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You can always downtune it so far that you can have 1 boss rampaging through the raid without doing meaningful damage. I don't think certain mechanics are impossible because of Flex, look at say Butcher's cleave not doing anything in Raid Finder for example.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On March 14 2015 00:25 Teoita wrote:
With flex in the game that's never going to happen tbh.
Blast furnace requires 2 priests and at the end of the day that is a lot harder to have than a third tank / 5th healer
On March 13 2015 23:46 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2015 23:11 Drazerk wrote:On March 13 2015 17:42 Cyro wrote:On March 13 2015 10:08 pachi wrote:
It's very boring in general since in raids someone living or dying depends very little on healing and is mostly their own fault. If it's boring, drop a healer for a DPS then repeat that step as many times as neccesary. I guarantee it will become quite interesting very quickly! :D I'd say that is a very big issue with the raid design right now in that you basically run 2/4/14 as the baseline but as people are going to become more and more confident with mythic raids it'll eventually become 2/3/15 etc etc and it forces healers out of the raid even more. Personally I wanna see encounters that force stuff like 3-4 tanks / 5-6 healers rather than simply stacking dps The problem with that is that it makes it pretty much impossible to have a balanced guild roster. No tank or healer is going to join a guild just to be that extra person for that one fight. You might think "can't people respec?", but even with gear being as good allround as it is right now it would still require people to farm a few better optimized items with spirit or armor on them. If that's not necessary and you could do it in offspec gear it would make the fight undertuned and probably too easy. Think back to 4 Horsemen in the initial Naxx. It bottlenecked guilds for weeks because suddenly they had to gear another 3-4 tanks to even be able to attempt the fight, not to mention the grueling execution. Gear is much more multipurpose now but the same problem still exists.
Right now healers / dps share gear and there isn't any issues (At least for priests not so sure about the other classes) since you don't want spirit because Blizzard dropped the ball recently.
Obviously the fights don't have to require amazing gear on the part of the third tank it could literally be another person in a tanking rotation / add duty just something to give variance
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 14 2015 00:35 Mikau wrote:
You can always downtune it so far that you can have 1 boss rampaging through the raid without doing meaningful damage. I don't think certain mechanics are impossible because of Flex, look at say Butcher's cleave not doing anything in Raid Finder for example.
Maybe for LFR, less so for normal or hc. Besides, raid finder (especially hm raid finder) isn't exactly what you should look at when going for good raid design 
On March 14 2015 00:39 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2015 00:25 Teoita wrote:
With flex in the game that's never going to happen tbh. Blast furnace requires 2 priests and at the end of the day that is a lot harder to have than a third tank / 5th healer
It really isn't mandatory like a third or fourth tank would be though. I've killed bf hc without any priests nor any problem; iirc Method used one priest only on mythic as well.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On March 14 2015 00:46 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2015 00:35 Mikau wrote:
You can always downtune it so far that you can have 1 boss rampaging through the raid without doing meaningful damage. I don't think certain mechanics are impossible because of Flex, look at say Butcher's cleave not doing anything in Raid Finder for example. Maybe for LFR, less so for normal or hc. Besides, raid finder (especially hm raid finder) isn't exactly what you should look at when going for good raid design Show nested quote +On March 14 2015 00:39 Drazerk wrote:On March 14 2015 00:25 Teoita wrote:
With flex in the game that's never going to happen tbh. Blast furnace requires 2 priests and at the end of the day that is a lot harder to have than a third tank / 5th healer It really isn't mandatory like a third or fourth tank would be though. I've killed bf hc without any priests nor any problem; iirc Method used one priest only on mythic as well.
To be fair to LFR I did normal highmaul boosting a friend and I jumped into the tiger pits for giggles and was surprised when it actually did no damage
I mean that is fine with the not fully required but makes the fight a lot easier. basically things need to stop being a dps race and be more of a tank / healer test
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Italy12246 Posts
Tiger pits in HM LFR are closed iirc. Tbh i don't tank or heal so i dont really know how to change things for them. I imagine that "taunt on x stacks, use mitigation on y" must be boring as fuck though.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On March 14 2015 00:55 Teoita wrote:
Tiger pits in HM LFR are closed iirc. Tbh i don't tank or heal so i dont really know how to change things for them. I imagine that "taunt on x stacks, use mitigation on y" must be boring as fuck though.
Yeah they are closed not that you actually pay attention to mechanics on kargath regardless of difficulty
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Germany25657 Posts
Is there a reallly good hunter in this thread that can explain to me why Im doing significantly less dps with beastmastery than with survival? I just got my 4piece bonus and was really excited and now I am incredibly let down haha.
My rotation is probably not perfect, far from it, but just testing it at a target dummy, Im doing like 4k dps less than with survival, I suck need help. Require assistance haaalp ^^
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Aside from the fact that you need to aim for mastery, 4P is supposed to be a nice dps increase for BM :o
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Germany25657 Posts
Yeah, I resocketed and re-entchanted my gear to mastery obviously. I mean, I am by no means a god at this game, but I thought I took the necessary steps to not completely suck XD I SUCK!
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Well 30+% of your dps seems to come from your pet's auto attacks so it can't be that hard :D
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Germany25657 Posts
Clearly it is extremely difficult, otherwise how would I be failing at it
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EPT
