EPT[wow] Warlords of Draenor - Page 146
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Serejai
6007 Posts
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
On August 29 2014 04:52 Dismay wrote: People who play MMOs just don't have that kind of time anymore. We've grown up, gone off to college and started families. Not everyone, mind you, and even in the old days we had married folk plunking away at it. But there's a lot more people who just don't want to invest that kind of time, and since it's a business, well, yeah. One thing I wonder about is how many new players are popping into MMOs - has the genre plateaued? Now it's kids with their Legal Legends and their Legocraft. I do miss the social aspect. I think a lot of things (like second monitors, but also just being a cynical jerk) contribute to it. Other things, particularly in WoW's case, include all the rubbish cross server dungeons and BGs and blahblah. WoW's never going to go back to the way it was, though. You can try other games or just accept WoW as it is. I had never really thought about that before. Maybe an influx of new blood is a bit much to ask, but I think the game could be a bit more of a time sink without destroying the oh so busy lives of the adult gamers. And for the record, I have a wife, kids, job, dog, etc and manage to juggle it all effectively with time to play. And I sincerely doubt I'm anyone special lol. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Serejai
6007 Posts
Case in point, dailies. I could blow through all of my Golden Lotus dailies in about 15 minutes - and that was with a few stops here and there to gank people. Meanwhile, a large amount of players seemed to take up to an hour to do those each day. I could start the first set at the same time as other people, finish all of mine, turn them in, go do dailies in another zone, come back to the Vale... and the people I started dailies with an hour ago would be just now finishing up. Dungeons are another big one. Get ten people in the same ilvl; five good, five bad. The good group will easily run 2-3 heroics before the bad group finishes a single one. You have to realize that the overwhelming majority of players these days are really, really terrible. Most of the good players left years ago and moved on to newer games because they had already gotten everything they could out of WoW. This is pretty natural for games in general. The hard part is finding that balance between the good and the bad. If good players are clearing content too fast, they will get bored and leave. If bad players are clearing it too slowly, they will whine and get frustrated... then leave. I really, really hate where the pendulum currently sits but I think if Blizzard pushed it in either direction they would lose a lot more customers. | ||
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Serejai
6007 Posts
On August 29 2014 05:19 Teoita wrote: Ugh runnign hc with a 570 pug arcane mage who succesfully picked every wrong talent he could have. Blazing Speed, Invocation, Ice Barrier, Cold Snap. How people still fuck up talent builds like this is beyond me. It's amusing; all of the hand holding that WoW does and the one place they don't hold your hand is the one place most people need it; actually teaching you what your spells and abilities do. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
On August 29 2014 05:23 Serejai wrote: The problem is less how much time something takes to do in game, and more how long players take to do it. To put it nicely most players these days are incompetent retards and tasks that should take 10-15 minutes to do end up taking them an hour. Case in point, dailies. I could blow through all of my Golden Lotus dailies in about 15 minutes - and that was with a few stops here and there to gank people. Meanwhile, a large amount of players seemed to take up to an hour to do those each day. I could start the first set at the same time as other people, finish all of mine, turn them in, go do dailies in another zone, come back to the Vale... and the people I started dailies with an hour ago would be just now finishing up. Dungeons are another big one. Get ten people in the same ilvl; five good, five bad. The good group will easily run 2-3 heroics before the bad group finishes a single one. You have to realize that the overwhelming majority of players these days are really, really terrible. Most of the good players left years ago and moved on to newer games because they had already gotten everything they could out of WoW. This is pretty natural for games in general. The hard part is finding that balance between the good and the bad. If good players are clearing content too fast, they will get bored and leave. If bad players are clearing it too slowly, they will whine and get frustrated... then leave. I really, really hate where the pendulum currently sits but I think if Blizzard pushed it in either direction they would lose a lot more customers. That might be the best explanation I have ever heard. I wish I could quote that everywhere. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21364 Posts
On August 29 2014 05:24 Serejai wrote: It's amusing; all of the hand holding that WoW does and the one place they don't hold your hand is the one place most people need it; actually teaching you what your spells and abilities do. Yep I totaly agree on that, it seems to be a problem of pretty much all MMO's tho, a lack of tutorial. They could do something like that with the Proving Ground. Create scenes where you need to do the right stuff to progress but I dont think Blizzard is willing to force their players to learn their class. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
On August 29 2014 04:35 Serejai wrote: Flying is stupid. We've had no flying EVERY SINGLE EXPANSION and for some reason it's suddenly a big deal this time. Everyone's gripe is that in all expansions flying was rewarded at max level, but the quote from Blizzard is that in WoD it won't be, at least until a later patch. It doesn't really bother me, either way. My ground mounts look cooler. Annnd city-sitting has always been a thing. People congregate around the bank, the AH, and their mailbox. Even if people were forced to run to dungeons, you'd still see the majority of them in the latest faction city. | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On August 29 2014 05:23 Serejai wrote: Most of the good players left years ago and moved on to newer games because they had already gotten everything they could out of WoW. This is pretty natural for games in general. Not really. This depends heavily on how much of a competitive aspect and/or how much revenue said players can generate from a game. Because WoW is actually profitable for many well-known players to stream on Twitch, pretty much anyone who's ever done anything of note in WoW still streams it, or streamed it within the past year or so to some extent (mainly 3v3 arena, because honestly, that's where the majority of any "skill" lies for WoW). You can argue that this is separate from your point about the game itself, but either way, empirically, it doesn't hold up at all. | ||
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Sworn
Canada920 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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Serejai
6007 Posts
On August 29 2014 06:05 Qaatar wrote: Not really. This depends heavily on how much of a competitive aspect and/or how much revenue said players can generate from a game. Because WoW is actually profitable for many well-known players to stream on Twitch, pretty much anyone who's ever done anything of note in WoW still streams it, or streamed it within the past year or so to some extent (mainly 3v3 arena, because honestly, that's where the majority of any "skill" lies for WoW). You can argue that this is separate from your point about the game itself, but either way, empirically, it doesn't hold up at all. I think you're vastly overestimating how many players stream. I mean, we're talking like a few hundred players out of the 100m+ that have played WoW over the years. If we make an assumption here that 5% of the playerbase fits the criteria of "good" (which is probably a decent guess based on raid data that MMO-C releases) we're talking over 5 million "good" players. If only 1-200 of those are still streaming, that's 4.8m "good" players that have moved on. While I agree with you that people who make a living off the game aren't likely to move on, that's such a tiny fraction of the decent players who play the game and since we were talking about the game as a whole, and not just the 3v3 arena/celebrity segment, what you said isn't really relevant. Using the rather conservative estimate above of there being ~5m "good" players over the years (assuming 5% of all players are "good"), and when we're currently at a total population of what... like 6 million? That's 300,000 "good" players currently playing the game. Subtract your few hundred celebrity streamers and you're still looking at over 4.5 million "good" players that have moved on over the years, which I feel is pretty in line with what I said. Plus you have to factor in that new players to join in the last few years are much more likely to be bad than good, simply because the game is marketed to casual players these days and the more hardcore crowd goes to new games like Wildstar. Of course all of this is based on how we interpret the word "good". When I say "good" I'm mostly talking about people that can follow directions, show up on time and prepared to raids, don't cause excessive wipes... really anyone who can do heroic raiding in the first six months of a tier is probably "good". The people you are talking about that do arenas and stream and whatnot... I would consider those miles beyond "good", and you're right that the very elite crowd doesn't tend to move on (with any game). I guess in SC2 terms the people you are speaking of would be progamers (and of course they aren't going to leave anytime soon), whereas I'm speaking of anyone who's in Master or Grandmaster league that isn't sponsored. | ||
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On August 29 2014 22:23 TheFish7 wrote: And then LFG/LFR kills most of the reason to be in a guild and make in-game friends This is something i will never understand. LFG and LFR are the very reason you should be in a guild: to play with someone you actually know (and who is by your own standards a good player) instead of having to deal with different people that you dont know and that can just be absolutely god awful, without it even mattering they are just anonimous people. I also do not get people that call LFR raiding. It's not actual raiding, because a) it's not a challenge b) the social aspect of interacting with your raid/guild mates absolutely doens't exist. LFR is a tool so that casuals can see the same bosses as more committed players, but it's not even remotely compared to raiding. Honestly, every time someone compared LFR to being in an actually good raiding guild, i think that person has never actually been in a good guild. | ||
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Serejai
6007 Posts
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Serejai
6007 Posts
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvsE7mcCYAA9MZj.jpg:large) | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On August 29 2014 21:24 Serejai wrote: Of course all of this is based on how we interpret the word "good". When I say "good" I'm mostly talking about people that can follow directions, show up on time and prepared to raids, don't cause excessive wipes... really anyone who can do heroic raiding in the first six months of a tier is probably "good". The people you are talking about that do arenas and stream and whatnot... I would consider those miles beyond "good", and you're right that the very elite crowd doesn't tend to move on (with any game). I guess in SC2 terms the people you are speaking of would be progamers (and of course they aren't going to leave anytime soon), whereas I'm speaking of anyone who's in Master or Grandmaster league that isn't sponsored. Yeah, that was pretty much my definition of "good," which in retrospect, is probably a little extreme, due to my warped sense of perspective from watching so much eSports, speedrunning, the best WoW PvP'ers, etc. On the other hand, I don't feel like "good" should be used in a relative sense, where over time, the definition of what constitutes being "good" deteriorates in standard, and varies for different subsections of a game. I feel like a "good" player should be within the top 5-10% of all aspects of the game. This is easier for PvE, but more difficult for PvP (although not that much, since top 10% is still only Rival). Either way, I'd argue that people who spend that much time in WoW probably don't leave so easily. But yeah, if your definition of "good" is merely being able to hang in a top-tier PvE environment, then sure, plenty of "good" players have left. But, to me, most of these guys (myself included) probably had no clue and/or weren't proficient in the minor nuances of the game, like being able to track CC DR, being able to use a bunch of extra targeting key-binds, constantly watching/changing focus targets, fake casting, generally being able to know precisely what is going on without the use of a ton of add-ons, and most importantly, being able to multitask and watch for multiple things going on at once to teammates, and still retain good positioning and optimal DPS/healing. This last skill is probably only pertinent in PvE to raid leading, but even then, the stuff needed to watch for is scripted and thus can be planned for. I don't know, maybe this is just pure pedantry, but I feel "good" implies well-rounded, and not just, in this case, being able to maintain a solid DPS rotation while moving out of scripted shit. I obviously don't consider myself anywhere close to being "good." Anyways, I don't disagree with the general point of your earlier post. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
Removing the necessity of previous raids or even heroic dungeons as a stepping stone towards gear has shut down so many people from playing. The majority of content is just pointless now. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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