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On August 25 2014 23:50 DCRed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2014 23:31 Serejai wrote:
Well, "player housing" is pretty much a roleplaying element. It's an instanced house that you purchase, and then you can decorate it with furniture, plants, trophies, etc. Guild halls are also player housing, but for guilds (and usually much bigger). They're for socializing more than decorating. So that's what garrisons more or less are? Pretty sure I can display my archeology findings in there, favourite mounts etc. To me player housing isn't some instanced place where people see it only if you invite them. UO had it nailed down when it came to player housing but doing non instanced one in WoW would be pretty hard and Blizzard knows it, it's why they haven't even tried to do anything until now because they didn't have any ideas how to make it work. Are garrisons the perfect player housing replacement? No and I'm not that interested about them either and don't like them being pretty much necessary thing to do.
sadly no, none of those things can be displayed in your garrison.
All we have customizable atm is the buildings and a few monuments (which are just for achievements like complete the raid meta achievement of do a 1000 pet battles.
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If you've stables you can show your mounts, did they scrap that? And those pristine archeology findings you see in Seat of Knowledge currently were supposed to move to your garrison if I remember right.
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On August 25 2014 23:50 DCRed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2014 23:31 Serejai wrote:
Well, "player housing" is pretty much a roleplaying element. It's an instanced house that you purchase, and then you can decorate it with furniture, plants, trophies, etc. Guild halls are also player housing, but for guilds (and usually much bigger). They're for socializing more than decorating. So that's what garrisons more or less are? Pretty sure I can display my archeology findings in there, favourite mounts etc. To me player housing isn't some instanced place where people see it only if you invite them. UO had it nailed down when it came to player housing but doing non instanced one in WoW would be pretty hard and Blizzard knows it, it's why they haven't even tried to do anything until now because they didn't have any ideas how to make it work. Are garrisons the perfect player housing replacement? No and I'm not that interested about them either and don't like them being pretty much necessary thing to do.
You can display a couple random achievement stuff, but I'd hardly call that decorating. It also lacks any feeling of... well, anything, as Garrisons feel just as forced as Daily Quests did in MoP. It's hard to enjoy something from a roleplaying/social standpoint when it's shoved down your throat.
It's funny you mention Ultima housing, though, as Tom Chilton was actually one of the designers of that. I don't like the guy at all, but he definitely knows that Garrisons aren't player housing, so I'm pretty sure this is a marketing thing by the higherups at Actizzard.
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On August 26 2014 00:08 Serejai wrote:
It's funny you mention Ultima housing, though, as Tom Chilton was actually one of the designers of that. I don't like the guy at all, but he definitely knows that Garrisons aren't player housing, so I'm pretty sure this is a marketing thing by the higherups at Actizzard.
Yeah I know, not a fan of him either. His latest interviews have been pretty much just bullshit more than before. Can't seem to find the piece where they said you could show your archeology findings. Hopefully they at least patch things like that 'cause few monuments is hardly is going to make it for people who want to customize and show off things. I slew onyxia and nefarian back in vanilla and whole orgrimmar got to see their heads, I'd at least like to show the things I've killed since then at my own backyard.
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On August 25 2014 23:48 Gorsameth wrote:
I think a major problem Blizzard has with player housing is a resource/player demand problem
It will take a major amount of commitment and manpower to get real player housing in at the the level of quality of a Blizzard game.
I'm skeptical of this, but it probably is true, since it corresponds with the reality of the situation.
This is probably just pure ignorance on my part, but what are the technical difficulties that prevent all of the RP aspects of player housing to be implemented? Doesn't seem like too difficult of a task to me, as many MMO's that seem to be more poorly coded than WoW have them (insert X Korean MMO here + FF 11/14). Can't imagine it being too costly either.
Edit: has the WoW development team shrunk significantly since the heyday? Is the base engine too archaic?
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Very few technical issues, and no - the team has actually grown consistently since TBC, which is amusing because the more developers we get the less content we get.
If I had to guess I would say it's just the art style or the game engine itself being too low-end. Similar to what Gorsameth said, I can't picture player housing looking good in WoW. I wouldn't call it "quality", but more that the game is just not cut out for it.
Here is an interior and exterior screenshot of some player housing in EverQuest 2, which also came out in 2004:
![[image loading]](https://www.everquest2.com/images/en/features/2012/08/norrathianhomeshow/0831/cabinlivingroom2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Pj7nfJf80Ts/Unkda0Y1p9I/AAAAAAAAHd0/mTzSfmE-jBc/s1600/eq2mansion2.jpg)
That interior isn't just a player house, but that's what most NPC buildings in EQ2 look like as well. Compare that to how bland and simple interiors are in WoW and I just can't really see that working. Then for the exterior ones, that's pretty much the same; plus you have the added issue of the WoW playerbase being really immature, so you'd probably see a bunch of phallic houses. That would require active policing of everything.
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On August 26 2014 01:07 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2014 23:48 Gorsameth wrote:
I think a major problem Blizzard has with player housing is a resource/player demand problem
It will take a major amount of commitment and manpower to get real player housing in at the the level of quality of a Blizzard game.
I'm skeptical of this, but it probably is true, since it corresponds with the reality of the situation. This is probably just pure ignorance on my part, but what are the technical difficulties that prevent all of the RP aspects of player housing to be implemented? Doesn't seem like too difficult of a task to me, as many MMO's that seem to be more poorly coded than WoW have them (insert X Korean MMO here + FF 11/14). Can't imagine it being too costly either. Edit: has the WoW development team shrunk significantly since the heyday? Is the base engine too archaic?
The wow team was never that big tbh. It shrunk a while with people being moved to Titan (new MMO (not RPG) in the works with an entirely new IP) but since that got scrapped and restarted the team grow a ton, they actually released a interview that the team grow by over 100 people which is part of the reason why WoD is so late (they had to train them all ect), the other part being that Garrisons proved to be more difficult then anticipated.
The reason why I said it would be a major undertaking is that none of the systems are in place.
There is system to have players place objects in the world and remember those placements forever. It would all have to be designed and added on top of WoW's frankly old code.
Add in things like a new profession to provide items to place inside the houses ect ect and your basically using an expansion level of resources for it similar to what is now being done with Garrisons.
And despite what some may think if Blizzard decided to add actual player housing they don't want to do a bad job and just tack em on. They keep themselves to a certain level of standard so saying other badly done games managed isn't imo an excuse to say Blizzard is lazy.
They can do it, of that there is no doubt. They just dont feel like it is worth the time/resource commitment.
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On August 25 2014 23:56 DCRed wrote:
If you've stables you can show your mounts, did they scrap that? And those pristine archeology findings you see in Seat of Knowledge currently were supposed to move to your garrison if I remember right.
I'm fairly sure that your mounts can be put on "display" in your stables and theres also a building that you can have your pets hang out in.
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Reactivated my account about three weeks ago because MoP was for sale for ~8€, leveled my druid from 79 to 90 in two weeks ... And oh my god what happened to the game I used to love back in the "old" days. 
The community (EU, Ger, Blackmoore) is worse than in any other MMO - Age of Conan, Swtor, ESO and TSW - I´ve played in the last three years. No one is able to - or better, wants to - explain boss mechanics to you, everybody is just interested in rushing through the dungeons as fast as possible. And the worst thing, 4 out of 5 players do not tell you if they know the boss or if they don't. Which leads to more than one wipe. No communication at all!
DDs pulling/nuking the mobs before the tank (in this case, me) even has the opportunity to reach them. Sometimes they start the fights before I enter the dungeon. Then they die. And then they complain. Plus 90%+ of the people are obviously not able to play their class properly.
Example:
There is a group of mobs about three melees and three casters, two of them are healers. The fight goes on for two minutes since none of the DDs is capable of sheeping/fearing/counterspelling the healer. I tell them like three times via chat to silence the healer... after five minutes the warlock finally decides to fear one of them. It seems like most of the players are just capable of pressing the same four or five buttons over and over and over and over and over and... again. I haven´t seen a single sheep/stun in about 80 runs.
Which brings me to the next point, who is responsible for the dungeons/raids? Seriously (especially) the bossfights are way too exhausting for my eyes. This might sound stupid, but there is so much bling bling, sparkling, explosions, lightening... in like every fight. In Karazahn the bosses had fun mechanics without setting the whole screen on fire.
Next, what happened to the skilltree? Or to be more precise, the classes in general? They feel soooo similar. No matter if you play a warrior, a paladin or a DK. It basically feels the same. Same for mages, warlocks or spriests. The only class that really shines out, seems to be the druid. At least as a moonkin. I also tried to play a shaman, it felt like the firemage I used to play in WOTLK. Shoot some bolts and wait for some passives to get active then cast sth else instant.
Last but not least, Pandaria sucks and the rest of the world is virtually extinct. From 80 to 90 I haven´t seen more than maybe 20 players, although Blackmoore is one (if not THE) of the most populated servers. I know this is because of the dungeonbrowser... but in my opinion it's sad.
There are lots of things I did not write about that also suck but this is just what came to my mind right now. I do not know why I´m writing this. Probably because I am pretty disapointed with what used to be my MMO #1.
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Yeah, I've noticed that too. When I've done dungeons/scenarios, everyone has just rushed through as fast as possible without saying anything.
But to be fair, this is nearly the end of the expansion. They've been doing most of these dungeons for the better part of two years now, and are used to people knowing what's what. I was the same at the end of Wrath, hell even like a year into Cata I was just blowing through 5 mans without a word. Just keep in mind that while it might be new to you, other people are running these things on autopilot.
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3391 Posts
On August 26 2014 02:51 Requizen wrote:
Yeah, I've noticed that too. When I've done dungeons/scenarios, everyone has just rushed through as fast as possible without saying anything.
But to be fair, this is nearly the end of the expansion. They've been doing most of these dungeons for the better part of two years now, and are used to people knowing what's what. I was the same at the end of Wrath, hell even like a year into Cata I was just blowing through 5 mans without a word. Just keep in mind that while it might be new to you, other people are running these things on autopilot.
This. 5-mans are no where close to where they were in the past as far as acceptable end game. Timeless Isle and such are better sources of gear, and Raid Finder is the new "heroic dungeons" of Wrath-era, where you actually need a bit of coordination and thought (not much, but...).
The only people running 5 mans are geared folks grinding out Valor to upgrade items, especially since it's the end of the expansion. They're going to rush. If you're a player coming back to the game and readjusting to new content, focus on yourself. Especially as a tank. NEVER plan on leading the group and stopping to talk about CC or bosses or anything haha. Have fun by trying to keep up with the pace of the DPS around you and doing your own silences/CC to catch healers and stuff. That's how I have fun at least, even when undergeared. It's a different world these days, but it's not due to one single factor or change.
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So the last 3 posts are covering a problem that's not as large in the WoW community as you make it seem. It is really a symptom of being at the end of an expansion: everything that's being run now has been out for ~1 year, people are sick of it. In fact, I think SoO is the 2nd longest raid tier in WoW history. I guarantee you there will be more strategy discussion, more communication, etc. when WoD comes out because it will be more necessary.
I mean add to that the dungeon journal and metric shitloads of walkthrough sites exist, it's very easy to find out with a modicum of effort.
Also for the record: 90 boosts exist and you can largely level a tank or healer class by simply spamming dungeons (especially true for monks who have an XP buff they can get daily). Lots of questing areas are going to be ghost towns for now, and WoD is shaping up to be a huge release that will see more than enough people sniping your questmobs on day 1.
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Disagree, playing on Frostwolf which apparently was recently merged with some other servers, which significantly improved the atmosphere there.
Reactivated my account 4 days ago, to just doodle around a bit - people in the LFG tool actually greet now most of the times, wasn't the case when i was playing ~a year ago. Also disagree on the need to rely on others to explain bossmechanics if you simply can read them up. That goes for raids. Bossmechanics in dungeons are irrelevant, since most people don't even have dedicated tanks/healers anymore, but rush in dps-spec through them. When MoP was fresh, i explained (and was explained to me) the new dungeons, now after what, almost 2 years, i can't be arsed to explain something for literally the thousandth time, especially if it's not even needed. I heal, just run through the dungeon and do some damage, or spot every now and then. I haven't had a group in the last 4 days (and i'm farming justice points to get the last set of 1-85 levelgear) that wasn't hilariously overgeared.
Not too sure about WoD though, might be the first expansion i pass on since vanilla. The WoD Beta-Forums literally have zero positive feedback on the pruning/castrating/neuting of the classes. Most commonly described as "awkward, clunky", and that goes for all classes. Sadly, especially for the classes i play (druid, warrior). People are actually wanting ghostcrawler back, since the new guy (Celestalon?) has no idea about what he's doing. He even admitted it ("never played hunter, but feels awesome after the changes" while literally everyone playing hunter in beta is gutted by how bullshit it apparently is now). All they get as feedback is "just wait, it'll be awesome, you'll love it". Yeah, right.
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To be fair, his dungeon complaint is still somewhat valid. It's the end of an expansion, but even at the start of a new one people suck at communicating or playing properly. DPS pulling before the tank, people not speaking up on boss fights, and people not knowing how to play their max level character are all extremely common issues at the start of an expansion, middle of an expansion, and anytime inbetween; it's just more pronounced at the end because instead of having 10-20% good runs, you have 0%.
His other complaints are all perfectly valid, though. This game has no real community left (although this has been the case for years now, so it's not like it's a recent thing), new bosses do tend to go overboard with shit on the screen (personally doesn't bother me but I still find it excessive), classes are homogenized and most feel the same, and Pandaria was an awful and forgettable continent/leveling experience.
While I agree with you on everything, I don't think three weeks is enough time for you to make an informed decision of your own. You should at least try out a month of WoD.
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3391 Posts
I will agree strongly with the sentiment that Pandaria as a continent/experience was really lackluster. That's probably the thing I'm most excited about going in to WoD. I wasn't crazy about Northrend either at the time, but it grew on me and there's a little something for everyone. Pandaria is like one big zone. The variety blows.
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I think Northrend and Pandaria are equally bad as far as zones go, but Northrend was good overall because it had the lore and leveling experience to go with it. You felt a very clear sense of direction, and everything guided you toward Icecrown Citadel.
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3391 Posts
On August 26 2014 04:34 Serejai wrote:
I think Northrend and Pandaria are equally bad as far as zones go, but Northrend was good overall because it had the lore and leveling experience to go with it. You felt a very clear sense of direction, and everything guided you toward Icecrown Citadel.
This pretty much exactly how I feel. That's why, in comparison, I grew to enjoy Northrend a little more (still second least favorite after Pandaria)
Trying not to let my nostalgia for Outlands exaggerate my hopes for WoD/Draenor, but it's hard not to have high hopes.
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I have little to no nostalgia for Outlands. Nagrand was the only zone I really liked. Zangarmarsh is kinda pretty but the quest chains are boring/annoying and it's annoying to get places pre-flying. Hellfire is shitty, Netherstorm is all one boring palette, Blade's Edge were generic as generic can generic, and Terrokar had like, 2 good quest chains. Shadowmoon is alright I guess, but never jumped out at me other than the Gul'dan questline.
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The issue with player housing to bring things back has been and always will be about space.
Ultima Online's downside was the amount of space to work with and on older servers pretty much even the most remote/isolated clearing turned into a field of borg stone 2 story towers for the most house size for the smallest plot size.
DAoC had housing and went with a housing zone. Essentially you'd enter a zone and bamn all the houses on plots. Downside was travel time and again limited space. I can't count to you the times I found myself lost in the housing zone trying to find the one house selling the item I wanted.
FFXI before I quit had an apartment, essentially a very limited garrison with furnature/etc and your own personal moogle. Of course at the time you couldn't invite people into your home so.. kinda pointless. Again to save space.
Garrisons are an interesting concept and having them expanded on just seems like the thing they'd do. I'd love more decorations and such. I could honestly see the current professions getting various garrison items to place. Ala tailors with tapestry/rugs etc.
From what I've seen it's a start but I want more.
Interiors of WoW buildings are not drab at all just no one takes the time to explore.. Check out some of the Inn's in Pandaria or Northrend. I rather like all the doodads and paintings you find.
Personally I loved the look and feel of the Steppes.
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3391 Posts
On August 26 2014 04:48 Requizen wrote:
I have little to no nostalgia for Outlands. Nagrand was the only zone I really liked. Zangarmarsh is kinda pretty but the quest chains are boring/annoying and it's annoying to get places pre-flying. Hellfire is shitty, Netherstorm is all one boring palette, Blade's Edge were generic as generic can generic, and Terrokar had like, 2 good quest chains. Shadowmoon is alright I guess, but never jumped out at me other than the Gul'dan questline.
Hellfire, Nagrand, and Netherstorm alone are some of my favorite zones of all time. Zangarmarsh is alright, but the quest density is AMAZING and I love getting there just because of how fast the leveling gets for a while. Terrokar was forgettable. Shadowmoon and Blade's Edge were very unique aesthetically but I didn't love the questing in either. Also I just played a lot in TBC (last time I seriously raided too) and enjoyed the whole experience, so like I said, heavy nostalgia not strictly related to the continent itself.
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EPT
