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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 11 2012 19:30 Ace wrote: Well I'm in agreement that Pau Gasol is the key here. I think if they lost him a Kobe/Dwight/Nash trio would be a fucking disaster. I agree, which is why I was totally against any Dwight Howard trade if it meant having to give up both Bynum and Gasol to get him. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On August 11 2012 22:39 TwoToneTerran wrote: Ehhh. His game is more scoring reliant than Iggy considering his mediocre defense (good help defender, bad at defending his position man to man). edit -- don't get me wrong I'm not saying he isn't an absolutely elite #2 player to have on a team, I just think it's a bit weird comparing him to Iggy considering Iggy is like the ultimate guts and glue guy. Iggy is also a perimeter player with a questionable shot. Pau, on the other hand, is a legit 7-footer who can score from the perimeter and the post. Both are solid playmakers for their positions, but only one of them can create offense for others and have an offense run through them. Iggy has the advantage in defense, but Pau, simply by being a legit PF/C with average to above-average defense, is capable of the oh-so-important task of controlling the paint on both ends of the court that Iggy is incapable of. Personally, I think an above-average big is just as valuable as an elite wing (if not more) because of the scarcity of the former, particularly bigs who are capable of putting up 20/10 while contributing positively on both ends of the floor. Lastly, Pau has led Spain to multiple international titles and is largely responsible for them being the biggest threat to the USA every Olympics. Iggy is pretty much a role player on Team USA. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 12 2012 05:01 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Iggy is also a perimeter player with a questionable shot. Pau, on the other hand, is a legit 7-footer who can score from the perimeter and the post. Both are solid playmakers for their positions, but only one of them can create offense for others and have an offense run through them. Iggy has the advantage in defense, but Pau, simply by being a legit PF/C with average to above-average defense, is capable of the oh-so-important task of controlling the paint on both ends of the court that Iggy is incapable of. Personally, I think an above-average big is just as valuable as an elite wing (if not more) because of the scarcity of the former, particularly bigs who are capable of putting up 20/10 while contributing positively on both ends of the floor. Goodness, you thought I was saying Pau is worse. I wasn't. I'm saying their games are not comparable, they do a lot of different things and just listing them as "great #2 guys" was a disingenuous statement to me. It wasn't me attacking or indicting Pau like you seem to think. This is a personal preference but I don't think Pau's too great at guarding the paint from dashing guards which seems to be the necessary things these days. Iggy's better at shutting them down before they even get to the paint. Comparing their defenses is an absurd insult to Iggy. Moreso, I don't think Pau's a 20/10 player on a team where he's not the first option. I mean if you dished him to the bobcats where he gets all the looks and starter minutes then yeah he probably would be, but in this situation he's going to be wrestling rebounds with Dwight and is the second, third, or sometimes even fourth scoring option depending on what days Nash wants to take his shots. Also, Lastly, Pau has led Spain to multiple international titles and is largely responsible for them being the biggest threat to the USA every Olympics. Iggy is pretty much a role player on Team USA. Iggy is a roleplayer on USA because USA is absurdly loaded. He'd be an instant starter on every other team in the world and be one of the best on the team. This is a really pointless thing to bring up. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On August 12 2012 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote: Goodness, you thought I was saying Pau is worse. I wasn't. I'm saying their games are not comparable, they do a lot of different things and just listing them as "great #2 guys" was a indigenous statement to me. It wasn't me attacking or indicting Pau like you seem to think. This is a personal preference but I don't think Pau's too great at guarding the paint from dashing guards which seems to be the necessary things these days. Iggy's better at shutting them down before they even get to the paint. Comparing their defenses is an absurd insult to Iggy. Also, Iggy is a roleplayer on USA because USA is absurdly loaded. He'd be an instant starter on every other team in the world and be one of the best on the team. Oh, I didn't think you were attacking or indicting Pau. I was just giving my opinion on how the two compare since your previous sparked the idea. Maybe I should have made that more clear, but my post wasn't intended as an attack on yours, but just offering another and different perspective. I think Pau is a solid defender for his position. I don't think any true big short of maybe Dwight can effectively guard against slashing guards, but I think he's good enough to not be a liability and contribute towards a good team defense. Iggy's defense is great, but I don't think even he can prevent talented perimeter players from getting to the paint anymore with the rules as they are. It takes help defense, and ideally a PF/C who can challenge shots at the rim like Pau can. Iggy is a great player, but I also don't think his game lends itself to leading a team. He is the consummate glue guy, but not the type who can take over a game or put a team on his back. Even if he played for another country, I don't think he's capable of having the same impact as a player like Pau, even if he is the best player on that team. If Pau played for Team USA, I'm pretty sure he'd have a more significant role on it than Iggy does now. Even if players like D12 and Blake were healthy, I still think Pau would get more PT because of what he brings with his unique size/height and skillset. Iggy, on the other hand, is buried behind other wings who can defend well while contributing more in other ways. It's not Iggy's fault, but the fact is that it's easier to find an elite athletic wing than it is to find an elite 7' big. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I think you're thinking about the Pau of 2 years ago, to be honest. He's kind of fallen down the PF/C rankings in my eyes (everyone shrugs it off as not having his heart in it or whatever over the past years because of trade rumors, I put it up to him being over 7 feet and in his 30s). Pau's game seems a lot more scoring centric to me, which is why I think Iggy's a better "piece" as opposed to a feature of the team, where I think Pau shines better. And even then age seems like it's catching up to him. Iggy is a great player, but I also don't think his game lends itself to leading a team. I actually want to single this piece out specifically, because I absolutely, 100% agree with you here, and that's my point. We're talking about guys who are going to be the 2nd or 3rd scoring option on their team despite being starters, and NOT being the leader of a team. Iggy is ALL about that. He's the ultimate "piece" who isn't a true elite top 10 player. It's kind of like a worse Scottie Pippen. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I know it wasn't in these threads specifically, but remember during the season where we got all these "Bynum>Dwight" opinions in the media at large, primarily from espn talking heads and Lakers or former Lakers (like Shaq)? All turning on a dime now. | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
On August 12 2012 19:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yeah, by whatever bit I'm maligning Pau becoming a 3rd or 4th scoring option, that's probably the strongest starting 5 in the league for atleast one or two years (until father time rears his head). I know it wasn't in these threads specifically, but remember during the season where we got all these "Bynum>Dwight" opinions in the media at large, primarily from espn talking heads and Lakers or former Lakers (like Shaq)? All turning on a dime now. That's because the addition of Nash flipped it. With Nash you don't need your big man to have that many post moves (especially with Kobe and Pau there), but rather have him be a defensive powerhouse that can score occasionally when Nash (and to a lesser extent Pau) finds him in an opportune position. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 12 2012 20:17 seiferoth10 wrote: That's because the addition of Nash flipped it. With Nash you don't need your big man to have that many post moves (especially with Kobe and Pau there), but rather have him be a defensive powerhouse that can score occasionally when Nash (and to a lesser extent Pau) finds him in an opportune position. Bingo. As the Lakers were set up before offensively Bynum was a superior offensive post threat to Howard. Nash in the picture changes EVERYTHING. Now we need a big that can run the floor, set solid picks, rebound the ball, and be an absolute anchor on defense. In this scenario, Howard is an upgrade to Bynum. Not that Bynum would have been a bad option either way (Steve Nash has a way of making ANY big man look good) but having Nash run the offense drastically changes what the Lakers really needed in a big man, and their needs now more match up to Howard's clear strengths over Bynum's. Honestly, I'm excited about having Dwight on the team, but he's nowhere near the strongest upgrade the Lakers got this off-season, Nash is. The reason why Dwight is such exciting news for the Lakers is the prospect of a new franchise player to replace Kobe when he retires, but that all depends on whether or not Dwight wants to stay a Laker after the Kobe/Nash/Gasol era ends. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
On August 12 2012 20:17 seiferoth10 wrote: agreed. Howard is better suited for a P&R game than Bynum is, who likes to control the ball and back down his opponents. I don't even think howard is going to be the 2nd option on offense really. I guess what I mean is that I don't think they will really run the offense through him that much. Pau took a backseat to Bynum and the offense last season. Not saying he isn't getting older, but he wasn't bad b/c he is done or he was playing bad; he is just the type of player to play whatever role is needed of him. He doesn't need points or the numbers to prove anything, which is part of what makes him a great fit for this particular team. Expecting a bigger role for him on offense this season compared to last season with that said.That's because the addition of Nash flipped it. With Nash you don't need your big man to have that many post moves (especially with Kobe and Pau there), but rather have him be a defensive powerhouse that can score occasionally when Nash (and to a lesser extent Pau) finds him in an opportune position. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Nash doesn't change the picture, but it does give an easy fallback argument justifying picking up Howard (which the Lakers were trying to do forever because they're smart and know Howard is better). | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 12 2012 21:37 TwoToneTerran wrote: I can't buy that. You don't have more than 2 good years left in Nash, Dwight is your future and you guys picked him up expecting that. If you truly thought Bynum was better sans Nash then you should've stuck with him because he's younger and Nash doesn't have much longer. People were straight up saying Bynum vs Dwight in a vacuum, Bynum was better and that was patently silly. Nash doesn't change the picture, but it does give an easy fallback argument justifying picking up Howard (which the Lakers were trying to do forever because they're smart and know Howard is better). I have no idea where the Lakers' front office currently ranks the two big guys. I'm more of the opinion the two are relatively equal in more ways than not, I am however totally supportive of the trade now that Nash is on board but were Nash not in the picture frankly I wouldn't really care which one of them the team was built around. My whole argument prior to this trade was that Howard wasn't worth having if it meant trading Bynum and Gasol to get him, I never was particularly against a straight up Bynum for Howard trade although I have a bit of an attachment to Bynum simply because he's been with the Lakers for so long and I've gotten to see his growth and development into one of the best Centers in the NBA. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On August 12 2012 22:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: As a Lakers fan you should definitely eschew sentimental attachment to players. You're cheering for probably the best and most cutthroat FO there is. It's all about who's better and Dwight is obviously better. I was just taking a jab at all the dumb Lakers fans comments that Bynum was better because for some reason having the second best center just wasn't good enough. I'll be honest. For most Laker fans, there's Kobe and then there's Kobe's teammates. Fisher was the only one that I know of that had a real backlash when he was traded because of how attached everyone around here was to him despite the fact it was obvious he was the weak link on the starting line up, which is also why he gets standing ovations when he comes back to Staples center on opposing teams. Odom was another guy that had a lot of popularity but I think a lot of that had to do with his off court persona. But his popularity didn't stop him from being shipped off, albeit at his own request after Mitch tried to trade him for Chris Paul. I used to love players like Sasha Vujacic, with his hair and streaky shooting. Seeing Luke Walton dunk on Carmelo Anthony in the 2009 playoffs, hell I used to love watching DJ Mbenga come off the bench especially during those games he had to start because Bynum was injured. But for the most part, being a fan of the most successful brand in basketball comes at a price and most Laker fans understand that to some level. The Lakers are the most successful because their front office is so cutthroat, so while a player might play for us for a year or two or much longer, their time is always going to be limited except in a few rare cases. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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TieN.nS)
United States2131 Posts
On August 12 2012 23:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm legitimately surprised the Lakers haven't shipped off Kobe while his value is still vastly overrated. I guess they're just letting him play out his contract at worst, though. Uh... in what world would that be possible, even if they wanted to? Not only would the fans kill the front office for doing that, his contract makes him completely untradeable. Pretty sure he has a no-trade clause on top of being guaranteed $30M at age 34. And you're saying that you're surprised? | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
If he could be traded, I'm pretty sure they could get someone to bite, though. Kobe's got this legendary mystique about him that seems to draw absurd overlooking of anything he does wrong. | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
On August 12 2012 23:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: Oh, fair enough on the no-trade clause. If he could be traded, I'm pretty sure they could get someone to bite, though. Kobe's got this legendary mystique about him that seems to draw absurd overlooking of anything he does wrong. Welcome to one of the plus sides of being a five time champion and global basketball icon. | ||
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TieN.nS)
United States2131 Posts
On August 12 2012 23:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: Oh, fair enough on the no-trade clause. If he could be traded, I'm pretty sure they could get someone to bite, though. Kobe's got this legendary mystique about him that seems to draw absurd overlooking of anything he does wrong. Are you missing the part where he's taking up nearly half of the salary cap and isn't getting any younger? It would never happen even without the no-trade clause. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 12 2012 23:33 TieN.nS) wrote: Are you missing the part where he's taking up nearly half of the salary cap and isn't getting any younger? It would never happen even without the no-trade clause. The Lakers just fleeced a team for the best center in the league by making them take garbage. They can make anything happen. | ||
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