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On May 04 2011 12:57 Jerubaal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2011 12:13 TwoToneTerran wrote:
How can you possibly not think Durant and Dwight Howard are better, or this year's freakin MVP? Most people would clearly agree with that ranking. Ginobli is the best player on a good team, but it's a team full of good players so it's kind of disingenuous.
Ginobli is clearly not in my top 10. He's only arguable for my top 15, depending on how much you value big men. If you're talking about only close games or "clutch" situations then I'm not sure how you could really include Lebron -- he's not as bad as everyone says but he isn't a top 3 clutch/close game player.
I was the one who made the top 10 statement and I said top ten overall player. Nothing about clutch stuff or big games besides just mentioning how Dwade took over the 06 playoffs. Because the bigger the sample size the lower Wade drops. You say 'when he's at his best' he's the best player. Unfortunately, he isn't very often. By the same logic, I'd say Ginobili IS one of the best closers in the game. A lot of the players you mentioned are probably more productive, but they aren't the best closers. Howard is probably the single best example of this. Hugely productive player. The Hawks practically dared him to try to score because they knew he couldn't win the game by himself. So if you tell me that Ginobili is never a top 10 player, I'll say Wade isn't 99% of the time.
Wade does not drop in a large sample size. You are, effectively, calling him unproductive because he was injured for 2 seasons. But even in the 2006-2007 season, when he only played 51 games, Wade was still a complete force of nature. Dwyane Wade is one of the few consistently great players in the NBA. Don't start saying things like "sample size" and "production" and think people can't check.
@Ace: Glad to see you posting again. Don't stop cause of this ridiculous stuff please >_>
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Wade is an athletic player with skill and a top 5-10 player because of it.
Ginobli is an unconventional left handed euro-step player, who uses a range of technique to get to the basket as well as hit jump shots, who led his team to the best record in the conference.
Out of those two which is harder to find in a player 9 times out of 10?
That's what he means by finding 10 wades before you find another Ginobli, if you cannot understand that i do not know how else to dumb it down enough to grasp such a simple concept/explanation
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On May 04 2011 13:15 Jerubaal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2011 13:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 12:57 Jerubaal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2011 12:13 TwoToneTerran wrote:
How can you possibly not think Durant and Dwight Howard are better, or this year's freakin MVP? Most people would clearly agree with that ranking. Ginobli is the best player on a good team, but it's a team full of good players so it's kind of disingenuous.
Ginobli is clearly not in my top 10. He's only arguable for my top 15, depending on how much you value big men. If you're talking about only close games or "clutch" situations then I'm not sure how you could really include Lebron -- he's not as bad as everyone says but he isn't a top 3 clutch/close game player.
I was the one who made the top 10 statement and I said top ten overall player. Nothing about clutch stuff or big games besides just mentioning how Dwade took over the 06 playoffs. Because the bigger the sample size the lower Wade drops. You say 'when he's at his best' he's the best player. Unfortunately, he isn't very often. By the same logic, I'd say Ginobili IS one of the best closers in the game. A lot of the players you mentioned are probably more productive, but they aren't the best closers. Howard is probably the single best example of this. Hugely productive player. The Hawks practically dared him to try to score because they knew he couldn't win the game by himself. So if you tell me that Ginobili is never a top 10 player, I'll say Wade isn't 99% of the time. Then you're insane. This entire season was predicated by Lebron + Wade because everyone was saying "What happens when you take 2 of the top 3 players and put them on the same team?" They weren't saying that facetiously. Wade's a better closer than Ginobli and a more productive player, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Hell, you even listed Lebron on your closer's list when his single greatest weakness is his inability to close out against tough opponents. And seriously, 99% of the time? That's just insulting. Because the Heat are barely a playoff team without Lebron. Wade is a really good player SOME of the time. You could argue Wade is the best player SOME of the time, but you could say that about lots of players- Kobe, Carmelo, Lebron, Anthony, Durant and on. My argument is that, contrary to you saying that Ginobili at his best isn't in the same stratosphere as these others at their best, which I disagree with. And Ace, I don't know exactly how to respond to your post, but I was talking about seasons and Wade was definitely not the best player of 05-06. He was the best player of the team that won in the playoffs. (You can change that 'best player in the playoffs' if that's less offensive to you.) 08-09 is subjective, but he was on a bad team. So if that's all it takes, then Kevin Martin deserves some answers. Anyway, back to the playoffs.
And what does that mean? Being on a bad team but still being efficient means you're good. His years where Miami was cutting cap space are also in line with his career numbers so you're off there.
He was def the best player in 05-06 even before they hit the playoffs. After 04-05 he was a surefire candidate with ease.
Carmelo and Durant are never in the convo for best players. Not good enough all around to be compared with Wade, Lebron or Kobe.
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On May 04 2011 13:22 The Chief wrote:
Wade is an athletic player with skill and a top 5-10 player because of it.
Ginobli is an unconventional left handed euro-step player, who uses a range of technique to get to the basket as well as hit jump shots, who led his team to the best record in the conference.
Out of those two which is harder to find in a player 9 times out of 10?
That's what he means by finding 10 wades before you find another Ginobli, if you cannot understand that i do not know how else to dumb it down enough to grasp such a simple concept/explanation
How do I have to dumb down NBA finals MVP, league scoring champion, super star player who carried his team to the championship moreso than any other player in the past?
There's one Ginobli, List me one other player like Wade, ever. Hint -- MJ and Kobe had excellent teams backing them.
Wade is a one of a kind player, just like Ginobli. His uniqueness just doesn't come from "playing weird."
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See this is what the argument is revolving around: The argument is that Wade is SOMETIMES the best player in the league. I also argue that Ginobili is SOMETIMES one of the best players in the league. You then counter by saying that Wade is so much more productive in general. Unfortunately, if you look at the overall stats, Wade is NEVER the best player. If you're only going to look at Wade in limited instances, I only think it's right that you do the same to Ginobili.
I don't even care if in every instance you think that Wade is the better player, I think your assertion that Ginobili isn't in the same stratosphere as Wade is the logic of a homer.
Brees and Ace, I suggest you go find that ESPN article about the statistical analysis of who the clutchest players are. I don't get why you point out the obvious that the best offensive players fill the list of 'clutchest' players and then don't bother to look deeper into it. Kobe was no where near the top of the list and Chauncey Billups was dead last on the list. So, no, an objective analysis of 'clutchest' is not a direct result of volume.
I also don't even know why I bother stating this, but this is a basketball thread, so if you could stow the snarky comments, that would be great.
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If you look at overall stats Wade is at the top of the league. What stats are you looking at?
I also read that article, which is why I vote for Chris Paul as one of the best clutch players. But maybe you should make the distinction between clutch player and clutch scorer. I'd have Kobe and Wade on the court in any clutch game but that won't mean I'd have them taking the last shot.
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So what awful excuses have Boston fanboys come up with for tonight's loss?
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On May 04 2011 14:59 saltygrapes wrote:
So what awful excuses have Boston fanboys come up with for tonight's loss?
Losing on the road isnt a big deal?
Joey Crawford was officiating their baseline in the second half?
Pierce and Allen didnt show up defensively, and Rondo turned the ball over too much?
I dont see any of these excuses being "awful" but okay champ.
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On May 04 2011 13:29 TwoToneTerran wrote:
There's one Ginobli, List me one other player like Wade, ever. Hint -- MJ and Kobe had excellent teams backing them.
If you're thinking of "making it" with not a team stacked with all-stars, Hakeem, maybe?
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Style wise and game wise, Wade's the closest player to MJ (although Kobe's mentally the closest).
In terms of explosive slashers, there have been a lot, with varying degrees of success. There's Allen Iverson, Clyde Drexler, Vince, Brandon Roy (used to be), Monta Ellis, Joe Johnson...
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On May 04 2011 13:29 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:22 The Chief wrote:
Wade is an athletic player with skill and a top 5-10 player because of it.
Ginobli is an unconventional left handed euro-step player, who uses a range of technique to get to the basket as well as hit jump shots, who led his team to the best record in the conference.
Out of those two which is harder to find in a player 9 times out of 10?
That's what he means by finding 10 wades before you find another Ginobli, if you cannot understand that i do not know how else to dumb it down enough to grasp such a simple concept/explanation How do I have to dumb down NBA finals MVP, league scoring champion, super star player who carried his team to the championship moreso than any other player in the past? There's one Ginobli, List me one other player like Wade, ever. Hint -- MJ and Kobe had excellent teams backing them. Wade is a one of a kind player, just like Ginobli. His uniqueness just doesn't come from "playing weird."
Please, for the love of god, stop changing the subject and stop missing the point of what people are saying, we are not arguing about wade's resume, we are arguing that it doesnt change the fact that he is an athletic player who goes to the basket hard and has the charateristics of a player that are easier to find that that of the characteristics than ginobli. we are NOT saying that its just EASY to find players like wade, we are saying that you would find more players like wade on the whole than you would like ginobli. There are actually already certain people in the league who play similar to wade now anyway (Mostly tall PG's and quick SG's).
Wade- Athletic goes to the rim, good dribbler, good passer, good shooter. Top 5-10 player
Ginobli - Unconventional style of eurosteps, unconventional body contact shots, left handed fade-aways but shoots right just as much. Top 10-15 player.
Which of these 2 is harder to find in a basketball player now days, DON'T GO ON TO A RANT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THIS QUESTION.
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Another Ginobli may be harder to find, but I will take Wade over Ginobli any day of the week.
With that said, why am I reading that Wade did it alone? Did we forget about a guy named Shaq? In the 05/06 season, Shaq was an extremely efficient player. He wasn't Shaq the most dominant player in the NBA, but he was still a great player. In that season he averaged 20ppg, and 9.2rpg on 60% shooting. In the post season he averaged 18.4ppg and 9.8rpg on 61% shooting. That is a pretty damn good second option to have.
Wade did a lot on that team and was definitely the best player on the Heat, but give Shaq some credit.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 04 2011 15:58 The Chief wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:29 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 04 2011 13:22 The Chief wrote:
Wade is an athletic player with skill and a top 5-10 player because of it.
Ginobli is an unconventional left handed euro-step player, who uses a range of technique to get to the basket as well as hit jump shots, who led his team to the best record in the conference.
Out of those two which is harder to find in a player 9 times out of 10?
That's what he means by finding 10 wades before you find another Ginobli, if you cannot understand that i do not know how else to dumb it down enough to grasp such a simple concept/explanation How do I have to dumb down NBA finals MVP, league scoring champion, super star player who carried his team to the championship moreso than any other player in the past? There's one Ginobli, List me one other player like Wade, ever. Hint -- MJ and Kobe had excellent teams backing them. Wade is a one of a kind player, just like Ginobli. His uniqueness just doesn't come from "playing weird." Please, for the love of god, stop changing the subject and stop missing the point of what people are saying, we are not arguing about wade's resume, we are arguing that it doesnt change the fact that he is an athletic player who goes to the basket hard and has the charateristics of a player that are easier to find that that of the characteristics than ginobli. we are NOT saying that its just EASY to find players like wade, we are saying that you would find more players like wade on the whole than you would like ginobli. There are actually already certain people in the league who play similar to wade now anyway (Mostly tall PG's and quick SG's). Wade- Athletic goes to the rim, good dribbler, good passer, good shooter. Top 5-10 player Ginobli - Unconventional style of eurosteps, unconventional body contact shots, left handed fade-aways but shoots right just as much. Top 10-15 player. Which of these 2 is harder to find in a basketball player now days, DON'T GO ON TO A RANT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THIS QUESTION.
Hey TwoToneTerran, with all due respect I think we would all appreciate it if you could just drop this.
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i like it, it really gave me an appreciation for how rare of a player Manu really is
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United States4471 Posts
We really need to take out the personal attacks and insults that are becoming more prevalent in the NBA threads. There's no reason why two people can't disagree on an issue while still being respectful. If someone makes what you consider to be a ridiculous or unsupported assertion, simply ask them to back it up with some factual support WITHOUT insulting them. If they fail to do so, then simply ignore them and so will anyone who can recognize the distinction between an opinion worth listening to and one that isn't. If someone repeatedly tosses out unsupported or inflammatory posts, then they'll eventually be warned and eventually banned if they don't change.
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Was happy to see a Cyric post but too bad not basketball related  ... such a good guy like always tho <3 haha
But really does look like Miami on its way to the finals if Rose ankle really bad and all :/
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On May 04 2011 17:04 MassHysteria wrote:
But really does look like Miami on its way to the finals if Rose ankle really bad and all :/
miami will still go to the finals even if rose is 100%. and will be the NBA champions
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bleh. Was gonna write up something about why I hate the Derrick Rose for MVP campaign but got tired of rehashing old points. So I took out all the stats and just went with a simpler set of points.
One of my issues with Derrick Rose getting MVP is that it shows that even after the Steve Nash MVPs, the missed KG MVP discussions, and a host of other problems and ridiculous reasons for voting for MVP is that people still haven't learned anything. By people I really mean the media.
If there is one thing, just one thing that has been consistent for years about NBA basketball from reading articles, watching people debate on ESPN, looking at MVP votes and All-Star talk it's that people in the media covering the sport know just as much as your typical fan. Yes they know about players and have some inside information but in terms of actually understanding what is happening in front of them - they are generally clueless. The ones that aren't clueless are sadly also interested in generating the best story, not necessarily picking the best player.
Which brings us back to the MVP discussion and the damning evidence against these same voters: Kevin Durant.
The reason many people have problems with Derrick Rose being MVP stem from many angles but one of the ugliest things about it is the shameful way Kevin Durant was tossed aside after being the pre-season favorite. Now mind you, personally I think Durant is barely one of the top 10 players in the league nevermind MVP. But this is the guy that was their pick because of The Decision (more on that later). When Durant "underperformed" during this year, he was worse than last year in every category over the season except TOs, Derrick Rose became the favorite. Which is the problem here: This wasn't an award for Most Valuable Player - it was a digg at the Miami Heat and Lebron James. That is downright sad and is the problem with the secret voting for this media driven award. This wasn't an award based on skill or production, it was based on popularity and vengeance. Dwyane Wade last night said he doesn't care about the MVP award because he has a Finals MVP and a chip and really, I think a lot of NBA superstars are at that point. For Kevin Durant to be ignored even though he still had a good year is a tarnish on the award. I wouldn't have picked him but these same media people would and now he's barely a foot note in the voting.
However let's get back to why this MVP thing is bad for Derrick Rose. By all means Rose hasn't been one of the best players in the NBA. He's good, but not MVP good. From a team that didn't make the playoffs last year because Joakim Noah missed a lot of games to being the #1 seed in the East due to a new coach, 8 new players, Deng getting more consistent and Rose getting better there is no way that 1 guy can be the reason for that leap. None. Not even Michael Jordan in his 84-91 seasons was that good. You can look at the stats yourself because I'm not repeating myself in that regard. Just be unbiased and you'll see what I mean. The real issue here is that like Durant, Rose is now on a pedestal that he shouldn't be on. Forget the arguments about once in a generation talents, players that define an era, elite multi-talented dominating ballers on both ends of the floor. Rose hasn't finished developing. His mid-range game from last year? Gone. 3pt shooting? Better but still only 33%. So even though he's scored more points and racked up more assists, steals, blocks, rebounds and is better than last year he isn't that good yet. Every MVP winner has had an insane season by any measure. Rose hasn't and the media is going to do what they did to Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Iverson, Shaq, and KG. I'm not even sure if Tim Duncan escaped it but it's the same result:
They will rip at him. Whether it's some small hole in his game, he gets outplayed in a series, or they realize that he just isn't as good as they thought they will do it. Look at those players I listed and look at how the media has treated those players years after the glamor wore off. All of are once in a generation talents that had time to develop or came in the league ready to take over. Rose even in his 3rd year isn't even close to those guys MVP years and I fear that once they get tired of hyping him up they are going to kill him. Mind you Rose is playing TERRIBLE this playoffs but he isn't getting any flak. Let any of those players struggle vs an 8-seed and shoot 35% and they'd be crucified win or lose. They are turning a blind eye to Rose right now but in 3-4 years when he hits his prime and is a monster will he be looked at in the current light or evaluated fairly?
Something tells me he won't.
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On May 04 2011 16:19 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 15:58 The Chief wrote:On May 04 2011 13:29 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 04 2011 13:22 The Chief wrote:
Wade is an athletic player with skill and a top 5-10 player because of it.
Ginobli is an unconventional left handed euro-step player, who uses a range of technique to get to the basket as well as hit jump shots, who led his team to the best record in the conference.
Out of those two which is harder to find in a player 9 times out of 10?
That's what he means by finding 10 wades before you find another Ginobli, if you cannot understand that i do not know how else to dumb it down enough to grasp such a simple concept/explanation How do I have to dumb down NBA finals MVP, league scoring champion, super star player who carried his team to the championship moreso than any other player in the past? There's one Ginobli, List me one other player like Wade, ever. Hint -- MJ and Kobe had excellent teams backing them. Wade is a one of a kind player, just like Ginobli. His uniqueness just doesn't come from "playing weird." Please, for the love of god, stop changing the subject and stop missing the point of what people are saying, we are not arguing about wade's resume, we are arguing that it doesnt change the fact that he is an athletic player who goes to the basket hard and has the charateristics of a player that are easier to find that that of the characteristics than ginobli. we are NOT saying that its just EASY to find players like wade, we are saying that you would find more players like wade on the whole than you would like ginobli. There are actually already certain people in the league who play similar to wade now anyway (Mostly tall PG's and quick SG's). Wade- Athletic goes to the rim, good dribbler, good passer, good shooter. Top 5-10 player Ginobli - Unconventional style of eurosteps, unconventional body contact shots, left handed fade-aways but shoots right just as much. Top 10-15 player. Which of these 2 is harder to find in a basketball player now days, DON'T GO ON TO A RANT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THIS QUESTION. Hey TwoToneTerran, with all due respect I think we would all appreciate it if you could just drop this.
Is this a mod order? I just can't see why it's hard to admit that Dwayne Wade is a one of a kind player like Ginobli, even if they're special for different reasons. He's taking it like I'm saying Ginobli isn't unique at all when all I'm saying is Dwayne Wade has set himself apart as a special player by what he's done with his "common" skills.
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Ace, would you pick Lebron for MVP then? Dirk? I think the DRose pick is more of a result of there being a lack of a clear cut MVP, rather than elevating DRose to Kobe/Lebron/Dirk/Shaq status.
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EPT
