edit: I can't find the Lebron Fadeaway, but I did find Dwayne's eurostep on garnet
That move was frightening. I read Simmons today and he said that we'll see 10 Wades before another Ginobili. And while I can see where that sentiment comes from, Dwyane Wade is one of the "generation" players.
Simmons is an idiot if he said that. Dwayne Wade is, at his best, the best player in the league. Ginboli has never been a top 10 player.
If you read the column, you would know that he meant that Manu is just incredibly funky while at the same time being incredibly good. Wade is obviously more talented, faster, stronger, etc. Manu is just more...different. No one ever dribbled behind his back in the lane regularly before Manu, in fact it was supposed to be a terrible idea, but he made it work.
That move was frightening. I read Simmons today and he said that we'll see 10 Wades before another Ginobili. And while I can see where that sentiment comes from, Dwyane Wade is one of the "generation" players.
Simmons is an idiot if he said that. Dwayne Wade is, at his best, the best player in the league. Ginboli has never been a top 10 player.
If you read the column, you would know that he meant that Manu is just incredibly funky while at the same time being incredibly good. Wade is obviously more talented, faster, stronger, etc. Manu is just more...different. No one ever dribbled behind his back in the lane regularly before Manu, in fact it was supposed to be a terrible idea, but he made it work.
I understand that, and it's still a dumb statement. It'll take 50 years before we get 10 more Wade's, will it really be that long till we get a funky, left handed european player?
and wow, I only got home from work as the third quarter started but man... Rondo seemed invisible, but it seemed he put up about standard numbers for the game. What's the deal?
and wow, I only got home from work as the third quarter started but man... Rondo seemed invisible, but it seemed he put up about standard numbers for the game. What's the deal?
He slowed down in the second half but he was pretty consistent all night with the lay ins and assists. He played a solid game, it's just that Pierce and Allen were dull. Boston's bench was what kept them in the game for most of it.
On May 04 2011 11:03 Ace wrote: You have to read the column but he wasn't comparing top players. He was talking stylistically and in terms of Ginobli hitting some of the craziest shots he's seen.
Dwayne Wade has probably hit more crazy shots in his playoff run in 06 than Ginobli has in his entire career. I doubt we'll see 10 Finals MVP, League Lead scoring super stars before we see a player with a lot of finesse and pass savvy, which is really Ginobli's only identifying features.
On May 04 2011 11:03 Ace wrote: Edit: And I had to point out to a Lakers fan about how Kobe's career arc changed after 08 (Gasol trade). Big flammable point that ended in Kobe fan tears: Kobe had the better career but he never peaked like Wade. Based on best seasons, doing the most with the worst teams, and career averages Wade has Kobe beat. Badly.
Yeah, there has never been a team more carried to a championship than Dwayne Wade's 06 team. He's the entire reason I'm a heat fan because I hadn't seen anyone as incredibly dynamic since MJ.
Rick Barry.
And Dwyane Wade has never been the best player in the league. He may be the best player for one game or the best player at the end of the game and in those categories Manu most definitely ranks in the Top 10.
That move was frightening. I read Simmons today and he said that we'll see 10 Wades before another Ginobili. And while I can see where that sentiment comes from, Dwyane Wade is one of the "generation" players.
Simmons is an idiot if he said that. Dwayne Wade is, at his best, the best player in the league. Ginboli has never been a top 10 player.
If you read the column, you would know that he meant that Manu is just incredibly funky while at the same time being incredibly good. Wade is obviously more talented, faster, stronger, etc. Manu is just more...different. No one ever dribbled behind his back in the lane regularly before Manu, in fact it was supposed to be a terrible idea, but he made it work.
I understand that, and it's still a dumb statement. It'll take 50 years before we get 10 more Wade's, will it really be that long till we get a funky, left handed european player?
I have to say I am really loving watching this MEM-OKC series. Pretty evenly matched, both with young players, both with good big men who like to control the paint, both from small markets. The best series of playoffs so far imo...I guess the fans just make it funner
On May 04 2011 11:03 Ace wrote: You have to read the column but he wasn't comparing top players. He was talking stylistically and in terms of Ginobli hitting some of the craziest shots he's seen.
Dwayne Wade has probably hit more crazy shots in his playoff run in 06 than Ginobli has in his entire career. I doubt we'll see 10 Finals MVP, League Lead scoring super stars before we see a player with a lot of finesse and pass savvy, which is really Ginobli's only identifying features.
On May 04 2011 11:03 Ace wrote: Edit: And I had to point out to a Lakers fan about how Kobe's career arc changed after 08 (Gasol trade). Big flammable point that ended in Kobe fan tears: Kobe had the better career but he never peaked like Wade. Based on best seasons, doing the most with the worst teams, and career averages Wade has Kobe beat. Badly.
Yeah, there has never been a team more carried to a championship than Dwayne Wade's 06 team. He's the entire reason I'm a heat fan because I hadn't seen anyone as incredibly dynamic since MJ.
Rick Barry.
And Dwyane Wade has never been the best player in the league. He may be the best player for one game or the best player at the end of the game and in those categories Manu most definitely ranks in the Top 10.
That's exactly what I said? When he's at his best he is arguably the best player in the league, he clearly isn't that as consistently as previous MVPs throughout a whole season. Also, Ginobli is not better than Rose, Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Dwight, CP3, Dirk, or Stoudemire/Deron Williams. There's more players who you can argue are better (Gasols, Randolph, Nash, etc) after that, but the top ten I just listed are all clearly more valuable players.
That move was frightening. I read Simmons today and he said that we'll see 10 Wades before another Ginobili. And while I can see where that sentiment comes from, Dwyane Wade is one of the "generation" players.
Simmons is an idiot if he said that. Dwayne Wade is, at his best, the best player in the league. Ginboli has never been a top 10 player.
If you read the column, you would know that he meant that Manu is just incredibly funky while at the same time being incredibly good. Wade is obviously more talented, faster, stronger, etc. Manu is just more...different. No one ever dribbled behind his back in the lane regularly before Manu, in fact it was supposed to be a terrible idea, but he made it work.
I understand that, and it's still a dumb statement. It'll take 50 years before we get 10 more Wade's, will it really be that long till we get a funky, left handed european player?
*South American
Woops, fair enough. Most funky named white guys in the NBA are european and that's my bad for assuming and never having enough interest in Ginobli to check.
On May 04 2011 11:03 Ace wrote: You have to read the column but he wasn't comparing top players. He was talking stylistically and in terms of Ginobli hitting some of the craziest shots he's seen.
Dwayne Wade has probably hit more crazy shots in his playoff run in 06 than Ginobli has in his entire career. I doubt we'll see 10 Finals MVP, League Lead scoring super stars before we see a player with a lot of finesse and pass savvy, which is really Ginobli's only identifying features.
On May 04 2011 11:03 Ace wrote: Edit: And I had to point out to a Lakers fan about how Kobe's career arc changed after 08 (Gasol trade). Big flammable point that ended in Kobe fan tears: Kobe had the better career but he never peaked like Wade. Based on best seasons, doing the most with the worst teams, and career averages Wade has Kobe beat. Badly.
Yeah, there has never been a team more carried to a championship than Dwayne Wade's 06 team. He's the entire reason I'm a heat fan because I hadn't seen anyone as incredibly dynamic since MJ.
Rick Barry.
And Dwyane Wade has never been the best player in the league. He may be the best player for one game or the best player at the end of the game and in those categories Manu most definitely ranks in the Top 10.
That's exactly what I said? When he's at his best he is arguably the best player in the league, he clearly isn't that as consistently as previous MVPs throughout a whole season. Also, Ginobli is not better than Rose, Kobe, Durant, Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Dwight, CP3, Dirk, or Stoudemire/Deron Williams. There's more players who you can argue are better (Gasols, Randolph, Nash, etc) after that, but the top ten I just listed are all clearly more valuable players.
That move was frightening. I read Simmons today and he said that we'll see 10 Wades before another Ginobili. And while I can see where that sentiment comes from, Dwyane Wade is one of the "generation" players.
Simmons is an idiot if he said that. Dwayne Wade is, at his best, the best player in the league. Ginboli has never been a top 10 player.
If you read the column, you would know that he meant that Manu is just incredibly funky while at the same time being incredibly good. Wade is obviously more talented, faster, stronger, etc. Manu is just more...different. No one ever dribbled behind his back in the lane regularly before Manu, in fact it was supposed to be a terrible idea, but he made it work.
I understand that, and it's still a dumb statement. It'll take 50 years before we get 10 more Wade's, will it really be that long till we get a funky, left handed european player?
*South American
Woops, fair enough. Most funky named white guys in the NBA are european and that's my bad for assuming and never having enough interest in Ginobli to check.
The question wasn't about who is the 'better' player, but who is the better player in single important games or down the stretch and in close games. At least that's what I assume, as Wade has never been the best player in a season. He was the best player in the East and then in the Finals for a single playoffs. Of the players you suggested, the only ones I'd rate higher than Ginobili are Lebron, Bryant and Anthony. I can't make a strict ranking of him with Wade because Wade hasn't been in a meaningful close game for 5 years.
How can you possibly not think Durant and Dwight Howard are better, or this year's freakin MVP? Most people would clearly agree with that ranking. Ginobli is the best player on a good team, but it's a team full of good players so it's kind of disingenuous.
Ginobli is clearly not in my top 10. He's only arguable for my top 15, depending on how much you value big men. If you're talking about only close games or "clutch" situations then I'm not sure how you could really include Lebron -- he's not as bad as everyone says but he isn't a top 3 clutch/close game player.
I was the one who made the top 10 statement and I said top ten overall player. Nothing about clutch stuff or big games besides just mentioning how Dwade took over the 06 playoffs.
Simmons was never saying Ginobili is a better player than Wade. He was saying we'd see a player in the same mold of Wade more often than we would Ginobili. What Ginobili does with the ball is something that you rarely see in the game. Yes, some players will make more ridiculous/harder shots, and some players will make better/more ridiculous passes. It's his combination of the dribble/drive/pass/shot that makes Simmons so enamored with him.
You are the fifth person to say that. Yes, I get it, he didn't say Ginobli was a better player than Wade. I am using Wade's status as a perennial super star player as a reason why he's unique. We will not have someone who has done what Wade has 10 more times before we have someone who does what Ginobli does, it is a dumb statement.
Let's drop this conversation, it's really silly and I'm ashamed I've dedicated so much time arguing with it. Let's talk about this fun Grizzlies game and how Durant is awesome.
On May 04 2011 11:03 Ace wrote: You have to read the column but he wasn't comparing top players. He was talking stylistically and in terms of Ginobli hitting some of the craziest shots he's seen.
Dwayne Wade has probably hit more crazy shots in his playoff run in 06 than Ginobli has in his entire career. I doubt we'll see 10 Finals MVP, League Lead scoring super stars before we see a player with a lot of finesse and pass savvy, which is really Ginobli's only identifying features.
On May 04 2011 11:03 Ace wrote: Edit: And I had to point out to a Lakers fan about how Kobe's career arc changed after 08 (Gasol trade). Big flammable point that ended in Kobe fan tears: Kobe had the better career but he never peaked like Wade. Based on best seasons, doing the most with the worst teams, and career averages Wade has Kobe beat. Badly.
Yeah, there has never been a team more carried to a championship than Dwayne Wade's 06 team. He's the entire reason I'm a heat fan because I hadn't seen anyone as incredibly dynamic since MJ.
Rick Barry.
And Dwyane Wade has never been the best player in the league. He may be the best player for one game or the best player at the end of the game and in those categories Manu most definitely ranks in the Top 10.
On May 04 2011 12:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: How can you possibly not think Durant and Dwight Howard are better, or this year's freakin MVP? Most people would clearly agree with that ranking. Ginobli is the best player on a good team, but it's a team full of good players so it's kind of disingenuous.
Ginobli is clearly not in my top 10. He's only arguable for my top 15, depending on how much you value big men. If you're talking about only close games or "clutch" situations then I'm not sure how you could really include Lebron -- he's not as bad as everyone says but he isn't a top 3 clutch/close game player.
I was the one who made the top 10 statement and I said top ten overall player. Nothing about clutch stuff or big games besides just mentioning how Dwade took over the 06 playoffs.
Because the bigger the sample size the lower Wade drops. You say 'when he's at his best' he's the best player. Unfortunately, he isn't very often. By the same logic, I'd say Ginobili IS one of the best closers in the game. A lot of the players you mentioned are probably more productive, but they aren't the best closers.
Howard is probably the single best example of this. Hugely productive player. The Hawks practically dared him to try to score because they knew he couldn't win the game by himself. So if you tell me that Ginobili is never a top 10 player, I'll say Wade isn't 99% of the time.
On May 04 2011 12:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: How can you possibly not think Durant and Dwight Howard are better, or this year's freakin MVP? Most people would clearly agree with that ranking. Ginobli is the best player on a good team, but it's a team full of good players so it's kind of disingenuous.
Ginobli is clearly not in my top 10. He's only arguable for my top 15, depending on how much you value big men. If you're talking about only close games or "clutch" situations then I'm not sure how you could really include Lebron -- he's not as bad as everyone says but he isn't a top 3 clutch/close game player.
I was the one who made the top 10 statement and I said top ten overall player. Nothing about clutch stuff or big games besides just mentioning how Dwade took over the 06 playoffs.
Because the bigger the sample size the lower Wade drops. You say 'when he's at his best' he's the best player. Unfortunately, he isn't very often. By the same logic, I'd say Ginobili IS one of the best closers in the game. A lot of the players you mentioned are probably more productive, but they aren't the best closers.
Howard is probably the single best example of this. Hugely productive player. The Hawks practically dared him to try to score because they knew he couldn't win the game by himself. So if you tell me that Ginobili is never a top 10 player, I'll say Wade isn't 99% of the time.
Then you're insane. This entire season was predicated by Lebron + Wade because everyone was saying "What happens when you take 2 of the top 3 players and put them on the same team?" They weren't saying that facetiously. Wade's a better closer than Ginobli and a more productive player, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Hell, you even listed Lebron on your closer's list when his single greatest weakness is his inability to close out against tough opponents.
And seriously, 99% of the time? That's just insulting. The entire world doesn't revolve around closing and even if it did Ginobli isn't even in my top 5 (Kobe is clearly #1, followed by Pierce, Wade, Chauncy Billups and Anthony. I'd arguably put Durant up there just off being such an amazing shooter but he's still too early in his career for that).
On May 04 2011 12:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: How can you possibly not think Durant and Dwight Howard are better, or this year's freakin MVP? Most people would clearly agree with that ranking. Ginobli is the best player on a good team, but it's a team full of good players so it's kind of disingenuous.
Ginobli is clearly not in my top 10. He's only arguable for my top 15, depending on how much you value big men. If you're talking about only close games or "clutch" situations then I'm not sure how you could really include Lebron -- he's not as bad as everyone says but he isn't a top 3 clutch/close game player.
I was the one who made the top 10 statement and I said top ten overall player. Nothing about clutch stuff or big games besides just mentioning how Dwade took over the 06 playoffs.
Because the bigger the sample size the lower Wade drops. You say 'when he's at his best' he's the best player. Unfortunately, he isn't very often. By the same logic, I'd say Ginobili IS one of the best closers in the game. A lot of the players you mentioned are probably more productive, but they aren't the best closers.
Howard is probably the single best example of this. Hugely productive player. The Hawks practically dared him to try to score because they knew he couldn't win the game by himself. So if you tell me that Ginobili is never a top 10 player, I'll say Wade isn't 99% of the time.
Being the best closer isn't what makes a player great and it's really a ridiculous argument. Great players just happen to be good closers. Not the other way around.
On May 04 2011 12:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: How can you possibly not think Durant and Dwight Howard are better, or this year's freakin MVP? Most people would clearly agree with that ranking. Ginobli is the best player on a good team, but it's a team full of good players so it's kind of disingenuous.
Ginobli is clearly not in my top 10. He's only arguable for my top 15, depending on how much you value big men. If you're talking about only close games or "clutch" situations then I'm not sure how you could really include Lebron -- he's not as bad as everyone says but he isn't a top 3 clutch/close game player.
I was the one who made the top 10 statement and I said top ten overall player. Nothing about clutch stuff or big games besides just mentioning how Dwade took over the 06 playoffs.
Because the bigger the sample size the lower Wade drops. You say 'when he's at his best' he's the best player. Unfortunately, he isn't very often. By the same logic, I'd say Ginobili IS one of the best closers in the game. A lot of the players you mentioned are probably more productive, but they aren't the best closers.
Howard is probably the single best example of this. Hugely productive player. The Hawks practically dared him to try to score because they knew he couldn't win the game by himself. So if you tell me that Ginobili is never a top 10 player, I'll say Wade isn't 99% of the time.
Then you're insane. This entire season was predicated by Lebron + Wade because everyone was saying "What happens when you take 2 of the top 3 players and put them on the same team?" They weren't saying that facetiously. Wade's a better closer than Ginobli and a more productive player, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Hell, you even listed Lebron on your closer's list when his single greatest weakness is his inability to close out against tough opponents.
And seriously, 99% of the time? That's just insulting.
Because the Heat are barely a playoff team without Lebron. Wade is a really good player SOME of the time. You could argue Wade is the best player SOME of the time, but you could say that about lots of players- Kobe, Carmelo, Lebron, Anthony, Durant and on. My argument is that, contrary to you saying that Ginobili at his best isn't in the same stratosphere as these others at their best, which I disagree with.
And Ace, I don't know exactly how to respond to your post, but I was talking about seasons and Wade was definitely not the best player of 05-06. He was the best player of the team that won in the playoffs. (You can change that 'best player in the playoffs' if that's less offensive to you.) 08-09 is subjective, but he was on a bad team. So if that's all it takes, then Kevin Martin deserves some answers.
EPT
